Hey Ewald -

I decided to start a new thread with this so that it wouldn't interfere with the main idea in the other thread.

You said: "Dobro - Hexagram 43 is in my opinion about various perspectives on deciding. I don't see how that's about separating or parting, except for line 3 perhaps."

Okay, I'm aware of the 'decisiveness' built into 43, but in my view that decisiveness is an aspect of the separation/parting of the ways which is the main idea of the hexagram. Here's Karcher's range of meanings for 43:

* separate, fork, cut off, decide

* pull or flow in different directions

* certain, settled

* prompt, decisive, stern

So, you can see where I'm coming from if you study those meanings. The reason I take the separation rather than the decisiveness as the primary meaning of 43 is cuz it's coupled with 44, which is all about encounter. So it makes more sense for me if 43 is about separation (losing contact) in contradistinction to 44 being about making contact.

But the main impression I have about our exchanges about pretty basic meanings of different hexes is how useful it would be if there was common ground we could all agree on. You know, I've been using this oracle for a long time. Presumably you as well. And if two long-time users can't agree on the basic meaning of a hexagram then the net result is that meaningful communication about this stuff is pretty impossible. Whatcha say, hey?

The I Ching methodology TELLS YOU what each hexagram represents. This is a product of self-referencing, the XOR material, nothing to do with each LOCAL interpretation etc or the 'traditional' texts and so allows for a degree of 'objective' identification of meanings as universals. THEN comes the customisation to 'fit' one's local interpretations - IOW the SINGULAR expressions of meaning as compared to the PARTICULAR/GENERAL expressions of meaning.

As such, 43 has a skeletal form, its 27-ness, described by analogy to the generic qualities of 44. (and visa versa)

43 gets its nourishment, what keeps it going, its 48-ness, described by analogy to the generic qualities of 51. (and visa versa).

etc etc etc etc

Linking-up these relationships one by one in a generic form brings out the overall universal image of a hexagram. LOCAL context then customises.

I repeat, these relationships are built-in to the I Ching as an artifact of the method in creating hexagrams - the self-referencing of yin/yang. The 'ancients' or Legge or Wilhelm etc had no idea about this material and so 'struggled' with what they had. Their interpretations are thus more LOCAL than UNIVERSAL but there is enough to 'link [some] of the dots'.

The XOR material:

( http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/introXOR.html )

brings out these properties as properties of the method of self-referencing and so independent of any 'personal' labelling of relationships; IOW outside of all of our singular interpretations/labels.

The full spectrum of 43 is summarised here where the labels are generic enough to include personal 'biases' (and so ICPlus labels) but also enough to elicit definite 'objective' meanings (We could use the species IC labels but they are really generic - e.g. 43 is about expansive bonding 'inside' a context of expansive blending - aka intensity of expression inside a context of perseverence):

Here is the spectrum of 43:

00 :: (02) : What is this hexagrams's potential form? :: 43
01 :: (24) : How does this hexagram 'start', express 'beginning'? :: 28
02 :: (07) : How does this hexagram express uniformity, establishment of? :: 49
03 :: (19) : How does this hexagram express approaching the 'high'; defer to the 'low'? :: 31
04 :: (15) : How does this hexagram level things out, keep words close to facts? :: 58
05 :: (36) : How does this hexagram protect its 'light' when not its time? :: 47
06 :: (46) : How does this hexagram become more entangled with something/someone? :: 17
07 :: (11) : How does this hexagram balance/harmonise, mediate? :: 45
08 :: (16) : How does this hexagram express foresight/planning? :: 5
09 :: (51) : How does this hexagram express surprise, enlightenment, shock? :: 48
10 :: (40) : How does this hexagram express tension release through relaxing structure? :: 63
11 :: (54) : How does this hexagram expend early energy, imaturity? :: 39
12 :: (62) : How does this hexagram express overacting to establish unconditional loyalty? :: 60
13 :: (55) : How does this hexagram deal with abundance/overflowing? :: 29
14 :: (32) : How does this hexagram express commitment? :: 3
15 :: (34) : How does this hexagram actively invigorate others? :: 8
16 :: (08) : How does this hexagram passively attract? :: 34
17 :: (03) : How does this hexagram 'sprout'? :: 32
18 :: (29) : How does this hexagram assert containment/control? :: 55
19 :: (60) : How does this hexagram standardise? :: 62
20 :: (39) : How does this hexagram obstruct, go against, stand up to, the flow? :: 54
21 :: (63) : How does this hexagram complete, 'get it right'? :: 40
22 :: (48) : Where does this hexagram get its nutrition, what sustains it, keeps it going? :: 51
23 :: (05) : How does this hexagram wait for opportunity to come? :: 16
24 :: (45) : How does this hexagram celebrate its 'faith'? :: 11
25 :: (17) : How does this hexagram find a faith? What is its faith? :: 46
26 :: (47) : How does this hexagram integrate with the context, be it by choice or otherwise? :: 36
27 :: (58) : How does this hexagram express itself intensely, self-reflect? :: 15
28 :: (31) : How does this hexagram 'woo', express restrained enticement? :: 19
29 :: (49) : How does this hexagram reveal, unmask? :: 7
30 :: (28) : How does this hexagram express excess, go beyond what is required? :: 24
31 :: (43) : How does this hexagram 'seed', spread the word? :: 2
32 :: (23) : How does this hexagram 'housekeep', clear chaff to bring out the wheat? :: 1
33 :: (27) : What is the basic, skelatal form of this hexagram, The mud from which it has emerged? :: 44
34 :: (04) : How does this hexagram learn social skills? :: 13
35 :: (41) : How does this hexagram achieve clarity, concentration, distillation? :: 33
36 :: (52) : How does this hexagram express blocking, discernment? :: 10
37 :: (22) : What does this hexagram look like, how does it present itself to the outside? :: 6
38 :: (18) : How does this hexagram correct corruption, express that correction? :: 25
39 :: (26) : How does this hexagram express 'holding firm' to traditions? :: 12
40 :: (35) : How does this hexagram bring something into the 'light'? :: 9
41 :: (21) : How does this hexagram resolve problems? :: 57
42 :: (64) : How does this hexagram remain 'open', mis-sequence? :: 37
43 :: (38) : How does this hexagram 'mirror', deal with opposition? :: 53
44 :: (56) : How does this hexagram demonstrate conditional loyalty; loyalty at a distance? :: 61
45 :: (30) : How does this hexagram express guidance/direction setting? :: 59
46 :: (50) : How does this hexagram express conversion of the raw to the cooked, transformation? :: 42
47 :: (14) : How does this hexagram manage from the centre? Direct operations? Push ideology? :: 20
48 :: (20) : How does this hexagram elicit admiration and so invigorate others passively? :: 14
49 :: (42) : How does this hexagram reflect augmentation? :: 50
50 :: (59) : How does this hexagram make things clear, dispell illusions? lift the fog? :: 30
51 :: (61) : How does this hexagram express empathy? yielding, soft core, hard exterior? :: 56
52 :: (53) : How does this hexagram express gradual development, maturity? :: 38
53 :: (37) : How does this hexagram reflect rigid structure as a form of tension release? :: 64
54 :: (57) : How does this hexagram cultivate and become influencial? :: 21
55 :: (09) : How does this hexagram express making small gains to be noticed? :: 35
56 :: (12) : How does this hexagram neutralise attacks on its core beliefs? :: 26
57 :: (25) : How does this hexagram stand up to say its piece, ignoring consequences, disentangle? :: 18
58 :: (06) : How does this hexagram compromise, meet half way? :: 22
59 :: (10) : How does this hexagram traverse a path carefully? :: 52
60 :: (33) : How does this hexagram draw-in its enemies, competitively entice? :: 41
61 :: (13) : How does this hexagram express association with the likeminded? :: 4
62 :: (44) : How does this hexagram persuade/seduce? :: 27
63 :: (01) : How does this hexagram express singlemindedness, competitiveness? :: 23

To flesh out the 43 particular:

"As such, 43 has a skeletal form, its 27-ness, described by analogy to the generic qualities of 44. (and visa versa)

43 gets its nourishment, what keeps it going, its 48-ness, described by analogy to the generic qualities of 51. (and visa versa)."

the 27-ness of 43, its skeletal form, is thus associated with generic issues of 'persuading' or 'seducing', where these generics come from the more precise expressions of hex 44.

For the nourishment, the 48-ness, the "Well", comes the association of 43 with generic issues of 51, and so of the sudden, surprise, shock, enlightenment, 'new' etc

From both of these we can start to sense the properties of 43 and how it can cover 'breakthrough', 'robustness', 'seeding' etc etc.

There are 62 more analogies to go as given in the above spectrum. ;-)

People who focus on the Chinese names are missing the point about the universal qualities built-in to the IC due to the self-referencing. YES, the titles will often fit some aspect to some degree but to cover the full spectrum you just need to use the artifacts of the methodology - as discovered in the XOR material.

Note we are dealing here with WHOLE hexagrams, not "hexagrams with changing lines". We need to understand the WHOLE prior to moving into details that take us into dodecagramsd etc.

Chris.

Chris - Please respect that I don't want to look into your way of looking at this.
Please respect that I want to focus on the Chinese names.

Hi Dobro - Indeed, it would be great if everyone would agree on the basic meaning of each hexagram ;-)
This is a big problem, and this lack of agreement is one of the reasons I decided to do a translation of my own.

While working on 43 I at an early stage decided on deciding as the basic theme of that hexagram 43, ignoring other meanings of Guai4. So perhaps it's a good idea for me to re-examine this.

CCDICT seems to sum up all meanings that I encountered for Guai4 in dictionaries I trust: decide, settle / certainly, certain / archer's glove / parted, fork / (hexagram 43).

Archer's glove seems irrelevant.

After re-examining:
I'd say that a decision is providing a certainty to part from a previous direction and settle there. So in my view, deciding is the main meaning of Guai4, and certainty, settling, parting and forking are aspects of deciding. So parting is the consequence of deciding.

So as there is parting or forking, what's the difference with hexagram 30, if that's about parting or separation? I think in 30 it's coming from outside, in 43 the intention for it is coming from within.

But 'my way' includes the Chinese names but as particulars. Thus for 43 we have:

43 Breakthrough (Resoluteness)
Seedings, Cuttings, Spread-the-Word
In a context of perseverence we utilise intensity.

"KUAI : seperate, fork, cut off, decide; pull or flow in different directions; certain, settled; prompt, decisive, stern."ERANOS p473

To refine the meaning one then reviews the others as sources of analogy and so 27-ness is represented by 44:

44 Coming to Meet
Persuading, Seducing
In a context of cultivation we utilise singlemindedness.

"KOU : intense, driven encounter, at once transitory and enduring, that is the reflection of primal yin and yang; meet, encounter, copulate; mating animals; magnatism, gravity; to be gripped by impersonal forces." ERANOS p483

In other words the ideogram of KOU can be used to flesh-out the meaning of KUAI in that it represents the 27-ness of KUAI where 27-ness is the properties of the ideogram YI expressed through KUAI with the analogy being to KOU.

27 The Corners of the Mouth (Providing Nourishment)

Hungering
In a context of enlightenment, a new beginning, we utilise discernment.

"YI : mouth, jaws, cheeks, chin; take in, ingest; feed, nourish, sustain, rear; furnish what is necessary. The ideogram: open jaws" ERANOS p327

As are the properties of 48:

48 The Well
Founding
In a context of cultivation we utilise control.

"CHING : water well at the center of the fields; rise and flow of water in a well, rise and surge from an inner source; life-water, nucleus of life; found a capital city. The ideogram: two vertical lines crossing two horizontal ones, eight fields with a well at the center." ERANOS p521

expressed through KUAI by reference to the ideogram of 51:

51 The Arousing, Thunder
Enlightenment, Awareness
In a context of enlightenment, a new beginning, we utilise (sudden) awareness.

"CHEN : arouse, excite, inspire; thunder rising from below; awe, alarm, trembling; fertilizing intrusion. The ideogram: excite and rain." ERANOS p550

So -- the analysis of what the ideogram of KUAI represents is extended using the I Ching representations (LINES etc) to link the ideograms together as a whole. EACH ideogram (or pair if the name is a pair) can be fleshed-out by reference to all of the others.

Each NAME, each ideogram, represents a meaning that is also represented in the hexagram symbols. As such we can use the XOR process on the I Ching to bring out properties of the ideograms as they 'seed' each other in representation.

etc etc etc etc.

'My way' is the universal that the ancients tapped into to derive their local version of the universals. As such, once you map out the universals, what connects all of the symbols, you also link all of the ideograms - you could even remove all reference to the hexagrams, just use the ideograms in the ORDER determined by recursion and XOR-ing.

The ability to do all of this is due to the generic nature of hexagrams and ideograms where they are general and local context selects the particular. The ideograms as such cover most associations for that hexagram and the XOR material allows you to map-in semantic associations to other ideograms since the generic label of what is represented is the concern re meaning and that is GENERAL, not particular; many labels, same GENERIC meaning.

Thus if you want to focus on the chinese names, do so, but using XOR you can gain better insight into those names and how they all link together due to the self-referencing applied to the whole system.

Chris.

Chris - Dobro was addressing me. Thus it is disrespectful of you to butt in, and just dump all your data.

Just to make it clear re chinese names. The name of 43 is "KUAI : seperate, fork, cut off, decide; pull or flow in different directions; certain, settled; prompt, decisive, stern."ERANOS p473

But this is a particular name that is given to a group of states expressed in a certain way. ALL of the other states contribute to this certain way and their contribution can be extracted and considered in the analysis of a hexagram's ideogram.

Thus, as the hexagram of 43 has a spectrum represented by other hexagrams so the ideogram of hexagram 43 has a spectrum represented by other ideograms. IOW you can flesh out a LOT of detail on what each ideogram is trying to represent.

Chris.

Ewald YOU ADDRESSED ME WITH THIS:

"Chris - Please respect that I don't want to look into your way of looking at this.
Please respect that I want to focus on the Chinese names."

I REPLIED SHOWING YOU THAT THERE IS NO ISSUE IN USING CHINESE NAMES ALONE FOR ANALYSIS OF MEANING DUE TO THE SELF-REFERENCING OF THE WHOLE IC SYSTEM. IOW WHAT I SUGGESTED IS VERY MUCH IN TUNE WITH WHAT YOU CLAIM TO BE DOING.

FINALLY NOTE THAT THIS IS A PUBLIC FORUM AND ANY OF US CAN ENTER INTO A DISCUSSION. IF YOU DONT WANT PEOPLE TO 'BUTT IN' THEN I SUGGEST YOU MAKE YOUR DISCUSSION PRIVATE - I.E. TAKE IT OFF HERE AND ONTO PRIVATE EMAIL.

Chris.

There is nothing respectful about yelling (you know: CAPITALS).

There is also nothing respectful about just copying and pasting things that you have said elsewhere, several times actually, just dumping it again in some thread. That has very little to do with communication, let alone respectful communication.

Just that a forum is public doesn't mean you don't need to be respectful.

> There is also nothing respectful about just copying and pasting things
> that you have said elsewhere, several times actually, just dumping it
> again in some thread.

The material I posted was, is, highly relevant to the subject line of this thread and THAT is the focus. Thus any cut n paste is for setting down information for the particular thread (and in this concern the spectrum of hexagram 43. If you read other threads you will find that even though I supply links, many don?t/wont follow them - noticeable when they don?t understand something due to them not reading the link in the first place)

If I have written something elsewhere I don?t find why I need to rewrite it given I can cut n paste it.

As for your issues with 'respect', I sense a degree of projection going on - you feel disrespected at the moment in general?

Snap out of it. Dobro's opening of such a thread brings up a valid point re the IC for all on this list, not just you and my comments so far, other than this one and my 'caps lock release failure' one, are focused on that theme. Your excuse in rejecting what I posted was ill-founded in that if you read CAREFULLY what I have posted you may realise that it covers working on the Chinese names.

The Chinese language in its written form is based on ideograms and so the CONTEXT of what is represented is encoded into the ideogram in a GENERAL format (later variations, borrowings, etc changed some of this but focused on the original IC so the context-in-image remains OR it remains in the associations formed over the thousands of years.)

In tonal languages such as English I could call hexagram 34 'sausage' or hexagram 45 'winky'. Since the representation is tonal even when written down, there is no context encoded into the representations themselves, the names are derived on 'whim'. In Chinese there is context encoded into the representations (and so the context-sensitive nature of the written form).

Thus an ideogram is a unique representation of a meaning also represented in the hexagrams where they too are unique representations. IOW the name is not of the hexagram but of what it represents. (And so I can derive the I Ching without hexagram representation if need be.)

Thus 'sausage' is a label for hexagram 34 that is a label for the meaning X.
The ideogram of 34 is titled

TA CHUANG -

TA : big, noble, important, very; orient the will toward a self-imposed goal; impose direction; ability to lead or guide your life..

CHUANG : inspirit, animate; strong, robust; full grown, flourishing, abundant; attain manhood (at 30); damage through unrestrained strength. The ideogram: strength and scholar, intellectual impact."

This name is NOT for the hexagram but for what it represents, X.
This form of name is NOT the same as 'sausage' where IT refers to the hexagram, not what it represents. As such the NAME of the hexagram is its number and that is equivalent to labelling the hexagram 'sausage'.

In this form of context representation you have TWO INDEPENDENT forms of representation indicating the ONE meaning. Since the hexagrams of the IC are derived from self-referencing so that structure will be reflected in the other, 'independent' form, of representation - i.e. the set of ideograms used to represent the meanings.

The SHARED space here is the meaning X such that one can make a 1-to-1 mapping of ideograms-hexagrams and then refine those mappings through extraction and analysis of the ideogram 'spectrum' or the hexagram 'spectrum' - all possible due to the core self-referencing of the I Ching where that pattern will be in BOTH forms of representations.

Your refusal to try and understand any of this, by your rejection of considering what I wrote, will only make matters worse for you and that is 'unfortunate' since you heart seems to be willing but your ego is not prepared to walk in the shoes of others. 'We' know our stuff on this list - some more than others and so more specialist than others - so may I suggest that YOU show a bit more 'respect' when a specialist tries to guide your developing understanding; I know what you are trying to do and have shown the path than can aid you, and Dobro for that matter, in that doing.

Chris.

Chris - This has nothing to do with my not respecting you. Please don't confuse my respecting you with my having to listen to you, though.

I think you are forcing your material down people's throats. That is disrespectful.

If there is something in your views that is relevant to the discussion at hand, I have no problem with it if you post it. That goes without saying, actually. What I do have a problem with is the enormous amount of irrelevant stuff that you post with it, just to make it simpler for YOU. It's of course much, much easier for YOU to copy and paste the same stuff again and again, and hope that people after you have done that a couple of hundred times will pick something up. Like bad advertising, which actually doesn't work very well for complex stuff.

But I want my freedom to decide for myself what I want to know to be respected. Also I want my talking with someone about something that is not within your views to be respected. It is not that you have to convert me or something. Or do you?

All that I posted was relevant, is relevant, to the subject line. If you cannot understand/identify that relevance tell me what you dont 'get' and I will try and guide you through the material to demonstrate the relevance.

The findings regarding self-referencing and XOR show us properties of self-referencing not covered in the original material due to lack of understanding self-referencing; you dont get it in Wilhelm or Legge or the original 17th century 'dogma' of the Imperial Edition.

Now we know that we can get high general detail re hexagram qualities etc directly from the I Ching simply through XOR-ing. Due to the duality in representations of the meanings so these qualities are also contained in the ideograms, no need for the line representations etc

No one can escape these facts. They come out of the methodology and that methodology is not mine, it is a universal methodology in deriving meaning. From the IDM material WE now know that and how it all works in the IC.

So - 1 + 1 = 2; The 27-ness of 01 is 28. Absolutes, universals. Inescapable. The 'differences' for 27-ness will be in the LOCAL interpretations/customisations and THAT gets into the issues covered in Dobro's original intent in opening this thread in that given the XOR method we have a path to derive general consensus on hexagram meanings derived from the IC itself, not from your or anyone elses reflections/struggles with chinese names.

From the general emerges the particular and on into the singular, each personal IC that is not comparable since it is unique to each of us.

Chris.

Chris - I see that you simply proceed to force stuff down my throat. Not very respectful. Apparently you don't care whether you are respectful or not. As long as you can force your stuff down people's throat it's fine with you.

This is an interesting reply Ewald - it shows you still cannot address the issues covered in my posts concerning the subject line. All you can do is keep coming up with the 'respect' smoke screen to hide your failure to address the issues. tsk tsk.

Dobro STARTED this thread and my reply was second to focus on exactly what was covered in the subject line. THEN you turned up with your 'go away' attitude.

ALL of what I wrote covers the issue focused upon in the subject line and I particularised it in maintaining the focus on 43.

Are you capable of continuing the focus or are you too troubled with your issues of 'respect' etc.

I think you are ignoring quite a lot of what's happened, Chris. I don't think it will be fruitful in any way to explain anything more about how I see this, as you'll defend anyway, instead of considering it. So I won't.

You already know that I don't find you communicate your views in a way that is useful to me, so I won't go into that either.

"In tonal languages such as English I could call hexagram 34 'sausage' or hexagram 45 'winky'"

Ah, now we're getting somewhere. Finally.

Sausage and winky. I admit I prefer drawing Sausage, but to be truthful, Winky's probably better for me. (grin)

How come my eyes don't turn like that???



But they can do this!