With hexagram 44, the assumption seems to be that the woman is too powerful or, as someone said in another thread, she's a bitch.

Yes, I guess it would bring misfortune to give power to an evil person. However, I know that some of the people who have come up when I have gotten this hexagram are not evil people. Unless, of course, I myself, the querent, am the evil person, in which case I guess this thread can end right here.

So I would like to ask if it has ever come up in your study of the I Ching that a male person was the infiltrating influence that needed to be guarded against? Or do you see the negative influence always as a seductive female? Has there always been an infiltrating influence to be guarded against?

The Concordance says: "woman and what is inherently female." Can it ever happen that a male person is "inherently female"? Sometimes young boys, for example, are categorized with females in the I Ching.

Is it the operation of this hexagram that someone inferior -- the female -- appears to be somewhat pink and fuzzy, but she's really terrifically evil, and no foothold at all should be afforded to someone like her? A wolf in sheep's clothing? In other words, she will subjugate you. "Subjugated" was the title used in the Greg Whincup translation for hexagram 44.

Regarding the one going to meet or coming to the encounter, can that person be either a male or a female? It would be great to hear from a male person if he has ever gotten this hexagram and what the circumstances were. Was he going on a job interview, for example?

The Concordance calls this hexagram "Coupling," and says it is characterized by powerful instinctive forces and magnetic attraction. Well, this sounds like illicit sexual attraction and going to meet a prostitute or seeking a loose woman in the streets. No wonder everybody's blood pressure rises a few points when they get hexagram 44.

I always have to compare what is written in the various translations with my own experience using the Yi. I once got hex 44 when I asked about visiting my kid sister. I also got hex 44 when I asked about visiting my brother. Another time I got hex 44 was when I asked about visiting a woman who had been my former employer. She is a Tibetan Buddhist of very detached and scholarly demeanor, a retired professional woman.

Magnetic attractions are not always sexual attractions. I'm not a physicist and I don't know what the actual definition of magnetic attraction is. But I do know that I was never sexually attracted to my own sister; nor did I ever "couple" with her. She's my blood relative, though. Same thing with my brother. We are on the same wavelength.

Regarding the woman I used to work for, it was an entirely synchronistic relationship. We were always attuned to each other, even at a distance, maybe the way those atomic clocks are always set to Greenwich Mean Time -- not that I know the mechanics of how they work, either. It was a boring but continuously harmonious relationship. "Woman's vigor,"says the Concordance, "the ideogram: strength and scholar, intellectual impact." Yes, that was the way she was, a cultivated, scholarly woman. She was not pushy, impulsive, or bitchy at all.

What I'm thinking is this: When people get hexagram 44, instead of going to meet, do they feel dread and become afraid to go -- because of hex 44's bad reputation. And hex 44 has to be executed in a timely fashion, so if they don't go, then they are missing the boat.

That was why when Mazaru asked, in a thread under Shared Readings on 1/18, if she should go on her job interview, I said, "Yes, go." She had gotten hex 44, with no moving lines, which I understood to be auspicious, a new beginning for her.

And so far, so good. Mazaru did well on her interview. They like her there and everything's looking great for the future of her job. I felt I did a good day's work yesterday because of that one thing.

If you got hexagram 44, would you go? Or would you stay home? :bows:

Depends upon the situation....

With regards to receiving certain hex's and deciding whether to do or not do a particular thing... I always treat Yi responses as objective advice but always make the choice to do or not do solely based on my first impression(s) of any given situation/gut feeling(s)/instinctual response (note I wrote response and not reaction).

There have been many a times where I have been 'warned' or 'advised' about such-and-such situation potentially turning sour - BUT had I not experienced those things certain other certain life-sustaining things would not have happened. See the post about the lost pony on the Hex 51 thread.

If those 'horrible' things had not happened to the man in the fable, if he had consulted the Yi and the Yi warned of horrible things happening would he have allowed his pony off the leash, would he have allowed his son to ride the pony, would he have done the things he did that caused so much 'calamity' but ultimately protected his son from being drafted into the army?

I think 'calamity' or 'disaster' can only be defined by how limited our understanding is.

Have you [general you] seen the movie "Paycheck"? Where a machine is built that can see the future...? But the time machine sees one potential of the future and because humans are so limited in their understanding they accept what they are shown as the only path forward and make it so. Thus making the machine more powerful than them. Only the creator of the machine uses it to it's full potential, which is to see all of the potentials of the future and thus makes himself more powerful than the machine.

So, when I receive seemingly 'ominous' responses from the Yi, I take it as the most unmuddled and objective advice that any one of us can receive, then do or not do based upon my own instincts.

Zoe

There are many questions and issues that are raised by the comments posted both about hex 44 and about the intents and limits of Yi Oracles as basic advice on what to do in a specific situation. Yi Oracles work best as information about how to perceive a situation rather than as Cosmic directive whether to accept a date or meet with someone.

In Gia-Fu Feng's Taoist Translation of the Yi, hex 44 only deals with a tough or self-reliant woman, not interested in becoming a traditional Chinese wife:

CHANCE ENCOUNTER. THE GIRL IS TOUGH. DO NOT TAKE HER HOME. Chance encounter means to meet. The gentle meets the strong. Do not take the woman because it won't last long. Heaven and Earth meet, all things prosper. The tough gets the correct center all under heaven prevails. Great indeed is the timing and rectitude of chance encounter.

Click to expand...

Taking the hexagrams as descriptions of gestalt process where the poetry of the commentary is only symbolic yields an even more abstract description of hex 44 which is a set of 5 Yang lines with only the first line place open Yin. Thus it is symbolic of process without any focus upon the first place or grounding in prior conditions. It is process cut free to develop in its own as a fantasy but as with all fantasies, the range of possible development in real world terms is quite limited. In my Flux Tome I Ching, I call this hexagram "Lady Luck" which illustrates this is a feminine symbol that is quite appealing and even seductive but cannot be held on to or even expected to continue to fulfill your expectations next time you try something.

Frank

If someone wants to see 44, they have to look no further than their own instinctive aggression. 44 is a species' assurance of continuance. That said, she doesn't always play nice, doing whatever it takes to satisfy her agenda, which while serving the continuance of the species can reap havoc upon the lives of individuals.

There's a 44 bitch rottweiler living next door to me, named Ruby. Her first owner died while she was inside with him for days before being discovered. Her current owners are nice people, friends of mine, but they're not the type to devote much personal attention to their two dogs. Ruby is a real affectionate old girl. In fact, she became very demanding for attention, so much so that I had to cut myself off from her. But she doesn't make it easy! Even in the middle of the night, if she sees the light on in my kitchen, she comes to the fence and begins her deep demanding WUFF! .......WUFF ....................WUFF. And she has continued this call for my attention throughout many nights. The only way to silence her is by forcing myself to ignore her, as much as it pains me to do that. But if I don't, it isn't good for her or for me.

My own experience with 44 is very much like Barbra's. I got it over and over again about a cooperation with a man. I guess in this case I was the 44-woman, and maybe I used my female powers to make him interested. The whole project had nothing to do with anything sensual or sexual though. I 'wanted' this and I got it. WUFF..

It was good, all of it. The time of doing it, and also the result. For both of us.

So I don't think Yi told me any "good/do or bad/don't" with 44, just gave good advice of how to tackle it.

It seems that "coupling" is not a very good translation.
The character is a picture of a woman giving birth. It is not at all a negative image, and certainly back then very positive. In a time when there was no social security, so children were the only way to survive when you grew old, and when continuing of the lineage was so important.

Interesting is Harmen's article about 44.

LiSe

mmm, good responses all of them and they all remind me of the saying:

What's the difference between a bitch and a slut? A slut sleeps with every body while the bitch sleeps with everyone but you.

The bitch gets to pick and choose who she gets to partner with.... Sounds a good description of Lady Luck indeed.

Zoe

phatoz said:

what's the difference between a bitch and a slut? A slut sleeps with every body while the bitch sleeps with everyone but you.

Click to expand...

lol!

A lot of WUFF

Before money was invented (as LiSe pointed out above), the hex 44 woman brought forth an heir.

Here are some words for a good mother: Capable, competent, healthy. She has to be strong -- and tough enough to make a two-year old go to bed after dinner. Now, that's really tough! The words slut and bitch are derogatory, and I don't see how they apply, except if a woman has irritated someone and they are calling her names. I enjoyed reading Harmen's article.

"A girl who behaves like a boy" seems to be most girls raised in both the West and the East these days. Don't girls wear pants, get tattoos, and want to be physicians, astronauts, and solopreneurs? Many young women today declare that they don't want to get married and don't want to have children. Yet we are still getting hexagram 44. So, I am wondering about the essence of hexagram 44.

Sometimes these days we see role reversals in which the wife goes to work and the husband stays home to raise the children. Would such a stay-at-home male be the "infiltrating influence," while the workaholic wife is represented by the five yang lines? Does anyone know a househusband who casts the I Ching?

Is there a male out there who recalls getting hex 44 in a non-sexual, non-gendered context?

In ancient times, the hex 44 woman produced babies when babies were wealth. These days, she perhaps gets hired as a computer programmer or to work in an office, which she administers or manages competently. Or she becomes a scholar or writer.

Apparently, the hex 44 woman has what is called severity or seriousness in the Image of hexagram 33, "he brings the small man to a standstill by his dignified reserve." Her demeanor is why men don't fool around with her. There is a similar quality mentioned in 14.5, a dignity that deters insolence.

It seems to make a big difference if you are a woman getting hex 44 or a man getting hex 44.

I seem to see the hex 44 woman as productive. Can anyone argue with that? Well, I know I can't boil a whole hexagram down to one word. My orientation to the I Ching is, for my purposes here, primarily practical. If someone gets hexagram 44 asking for assistance with interpretation, I would like to be able to do that. "The most unmuddled and objective advice that any one of us can receive:" Yes! Absolutely!

I can only go by the women I've known and the times I've gotten hex 44. We have this other word now: goal-oriented. She knows what she wants? as in LiSe's post? She's got five yangs and only one yin in her. That's a lot of WUFF!

Maybe I'm taking this too seriously. When a man gets hex 44, how would he read the lines about his womb being full or his womb being barren? Well, I guess he would do his best, as I do when a translation urges me, as it has done many times, to "take a wife."

Well obviously women can be productive, creative, independent. They can
be strong, and need to be tough in order to raise a family, or in order to
make it in working environments too, and out there in the society as well.
All this activity applies to the majority of women at least in the western
world.

However, there are more than plenty of hexagrams and lines to show just
that. 42, 19, 15, 37, 1, etc. I personally have many times received lines
which advise "go your own way", "accomplish great deeds", "use strict
punishment", "lead the way to catch game in the field", and so on etc etc.
Far too many to mention all. And yet i am female. What then is the purpose
of 44? Why not, when asking about something where the action will be
positive, why not receive one of the countless hexagrams and lines which
actually show that taking up action is favourable?

I'm not so sure about 44 in this sense then. Because being a female, then
i should be receiving 44 every time i'd like to take up some independent
action and go after a goal...? Which is just not my experience.

And to add one more thing - i have received 44 in the past and it turned
out it was referring to a man approaching me, with low intentions. I had
the warning in my mind, and just observed to see what will happen, and
indeed it proved that the said men (has happened more than once) did
not have my best interests in mind - and although a couple of the cases
were of a 'romantic' nature, another couple of occasions were of a totally
professional nature. So i believe that when 44 speaks of the 'feminine',
that could well be the 'dark element', something inferior - and this of
course could take very many meanings in practice.

As a footnote, when you asked about going to meet your sister, and your
brother, and your good friend - the question that actually comes to mind
is why did you feel the need to ask the I Ching in the first place? Why
would anyone have second thoughts about visiting family or very good
friends? The question alone implies that there was some sort of iffy
situation going on anyway, if not between you and that other person,
then between you and some other person at that time in your life. So,
it sounds like the I Ching was warning you against something - and only
you know what the iffy element in that situation was.

I like Diamanda's post a lot. There's always so much discussion about this hex, we seem to never get sick of it.

I wish every time I got this hex that it only signified something like a big old gentle rottweiler looking for some sweet affection, but it's not my experience. would you say a wuff-ing persistent cocker spaniel is a 44? probably not, right?

and what if you got 44 as a response to "how serious is this car trouble?" I wouldnt look forward to that diagnosis. or how about "should I trust this mechanic?"

I think it signifies a disturbing element and the need to be wary

Mulan is really an interesting way to see this hex. In the story of Mulan, There is an unexpected element, an element of deception, an element of entitlement and the determination to see that through. If it were only a determination to see something through, it wouldnt be quite so dark an image.

bamboo said:

I wish every time I got this hex that it only signified something like a big old gentle rottweiler looking for some sweet affection, but it's not my experience. would you say a wuff-ing persistent cocker spaniel is a 44? probably not, right?

Click to expand...

The big old dog wasn't merely looking for affection, she felt entitled to it, and was demanding it. Breed is irrelevant, attitude is what I'm referring to.

Btw, in the dog world, it isn't unusual for the runt bitch to be the pack leader. Again, nothing at all to do with physical stature and everything to do with being a real bitch. Even Zeus, the huge male American Rottweiler (the bigger breed of them, different from the one next door) in that pack, didn't ever dare to stand up to her puny 35 or so pounds, even though he was greatly more physically powerful.

Chase, the bitch.


But what was funny too was the affectionate way Chase would clean Zeus' face and ears each evening, like a tender loving mother. Chase was a real sweetheart, when she wasn't being a total bitch.

diamanda said:

Well obviously women can be productive, creative, independent. They can
be strong, and need to be tough in order to raise a family, or in order to
make it in working environments too, and out there in the society as well.
All this activity applies to the majority of women at least in the western
world.

However, there are more than plenty of hexagrams and lines to show just
that. 42, 19, 15, 37, 1, etc. I personally have many times received lines
which advise "go your own way", "accomplish great deeds", "use strict
punishment", "lead the way to catch game in the field", and so on etc etc.
Far too many to mention all. And yet i am female. What then is the purpose
of 44? Why not, when asking about something where the action will be
positive, why not receive one of the countless hexagrams and lines which
actually show that taking up action is favourable?

I'm not so sure about 44 in this sense then. Because being a female, then
i should be receiving 44 every time i'd like to take up some independent
action and go after a goal...? Which is just not my experience.

And to add one more thing - i have received 44 in the past and it turned
out it was referring to a man approaching me, with low intentions. I had
the warning in my mind, and just observed to see what will happen, and
indeed it proved that the said men (has happened more than once) did
not have my best interests in mind - and although a couple of the cases
were of a 'romantic' nature, another couple of occasions were of a totally
professional nature. So i believe that when 44 speaks of the 'feminine',
that could well be the 'dark element', something inferior - and this of
course could take very many meanings in practice.

Click to expand...

Agreed. I think its a mistake to place too much stress on identifying with the woman here...If you throw 44 and are a woman I can't see how it could be taken as referring to oneself. It says 'don't grasp the woman' I can't see that as 'don't grasp yourself'. In a relationship generally I think its something you are drawn to but that is actually disintegrating to you...still you may choose to continue but is probably better you 'grasp' this briefly then let it go

I think its an element definately experienced as outside the self that for some reason one is tempted to engage with (hence I agree with Brad the woman here is just a metaphor and not to be too literally taken as actual women) I think its an element that one may be tempted to engage with for all sorts of reasons, including practical reasons, or feeling sentimental about old friends who actually don't serve your best interests anymore. The woman has power IMO because this element symbolised by the woman) is something you feel you want, are pulled to. If you go too far with allowing this pull to take you it isn't good for you in the end.

So I feel its way off the mark to plonk alot of feminist values on to this one (and i say that even though I uphold those values for real life women). I really don't think this is a celebration of strong women etc I think that phrase 'strong women' just got hooked up accidentally with our current cultural associations...you know 'strong woman' now means something different to us in everyday speech than I think its meant in hexagram 44.

But I agree with Barbara re what she said in another thread, it doesn't make sense to make any hexagram all bad, we don't even see 23 or 29 that way so I agree the negative aspect of 44 perhaps we see too much. So whats the positive there might be in terms of our readings ? The most interesting analogy I've come across was from someones experience here, Knot I believe, who said she asked about jump starting her car and got this..it worked I think. I can see jump starting was good but if you held on to jump starting ie prolonged that kind of 'grasping' you'd be in trouble.

So I think this is mistakenly the most over sexualised hexagram in terms of interpretation. Throw it in a question about your mother in law or your car in a crap garage and you can see we can't only apply the temptation to engage with seductive sexual glamour. In my personal experience I've found it to come up around people/situations I feel either drawn to engage or it seems necessary to engage with for some reason but the connection needs to be brief, like the jump start or it becomes deleterious. Deleterious because theres too much power to keep on applying indefinately, too much power to make a permanent relationship with..it would be a permanent jump start

My experience also allies to a degree with you Diamanda in that it does show up around those who want to rip you off in some way...(in that respect it can remind me of 54. )Maybe its becoming someones elses 'jump start' lol..theres an association with power as in greed as if to use you as the 'fuel' for their projects, theres a ruthlessness about it, hence in relationship questions I've always thought twice on receiving 44, and always with hindsight seen i had reason to. I guess theres a ruthlessness about the 'jump start' but its okay with a car for a short time...for a relationship though ? Hmmm

Anyway main point i wanted to make was I think we go down the wrong path if we see the woman in 44 as literal rather than metaphorical..it leads to images of women in proud and powerful roles, which I think has nothing to do with message of 44. It stresses 'do not grasp her' IOW you don't want to hang on to this...for long anyway. I recommend detaching from feminist associations for 44, it misleads terribly IMO

Of course I am assuming 'woman' is used as a metaphor for what is tempting to engage with because the Yi was historically 'produced' by and for men, or from the perspective of a man anyway..if it wasn't then thats a different ball game but looking at the rest of the Yi or at least what we have of it now it leads me to believe that to interpret 44 as women now we have have to switch around to see the images from mens eyes (and then convert them back to our perspective, no wonder we get tired lol) or it doesn't make sense. Like 32.5 for example - it certainly doesn't make sense to take the wife and husband there literally in our readings..nor say 37.4 as literal if male. What I'm saying is we don't take gender literally everywhere else in the Yi, why would we in 44 ?


Anyway controversy about 44 continues and i think it still has mystery, maybe we should build a 44 experience thread..just for 44, because i still think theres probably much to know about 44 and if we can't wholly get to it through the words massing experience might help

Thinking more about the metaphor, why would strong woman not be good for the man to hang on to or take as mate ? Why is she better for a one night stand..probably because thats all she wants anyway, she doesn't need him for anything else but a jump..start, she could chew him up and spit him out, leave him exhausted ...couldn't be done every night of the week let alone a life time ?

The gender may be derived from the trigram Sun/wind, as the eldest and most experienced of trigram women. 44 is also associated with strong emotion, which is also seen as a female characteristic of Yi, as well as in most all psychological profiles.

It is when this earthly power treads upon (comes to meet) the creative principle that a warning goes out to the four directions on earth, under heaven: do not marry or permanently bond with this woman/sensation/emotion.

But I completely agree, that 44 is not an entirely negative omen, and that if treated wisely and respectfully, may lead to an auspicious outcome.

Low Intentions and Jumpstarts

I think Diamanda's post, above, captures very well the feeling of dreadful warning connected with Hexagram 44. Yes, indeed, what is the purpose of that hexagram?

I am fascinated with the jumpstart example, because it has to do with inanimate objects and just the electric charge is the important thing. Electro-magnetism is the crux of the matter, I think. You are "pulled," because it's an electro-magnetic attraction. It may seem "ruthless," but it's just impersonal. The judgmental word about "entitlement" evaporates when we speak of the south pole of the magnet attracting the north pole of another magnet. They are certainly entitled to attract each other, because that is physical law.

Diamanda speaks of "the disturbing element and the need to be wary," and I agree, that is the whole tone of this hexagram. Whenever we go out into the street, it is the same. I must watch my bag, otherwise someone might steal it.

I asked the Yi about visiting my sister, brother, and an old boss because they live thousands of miles away from where I live, and such trips entail considerable effort, planning, expense, and time. Perhaps the Yi was telling me that I was being strongly drawn, yes, but that there were a lot of negatives in going to meet them at that time. Hex 44 is very time-sensitive.

fkegan said the Yi gives us info about "how to perceive a situation." We all need help with our perceptions. Our perceptions are what it's all about.

How dangerous is a hex 44 situation? It would be important to know whether or not the electro-magnetic charge might be so great that I am going to get toasted. What is the needle on that voltage meter registering, exactly?

Images coming to mind: A tiny refrigerator magnet getting stuck to the door of a huge refrigerator. Someone grasping an uninsulated electric wire through which a lot of electricity is running. He has great difficulty opening the hand to free himself, because of the paralyzing force of such energy. Losing the radio signal on the car radio when driving under an overhead power line. Nonthreatening image: Being on the same wavelength with someone, in sync, so that when I think of him, he may call me on the phone just then, or if I go out later, I may happen to meet him in the street, and we say hello and talk for a few minutes.

Hexagram 44 may speak of human beings encountering situations where the attractive forces or magnetic forces are stronger than we are. The purpose of hexagram 44 may be to warn us or inform us that this is so.

It's the notion of deception creeping into this hexagram that I find disturbing. Intention to deceive. People of low intention, who wish to rip me off. Deception and thieving: a massively distressing theme. The other fellow does not have my best interests at heart. Unbreakable or "deteriorating" attachments to unsuitable people. In other words, a lot of fear connected with those we perceive as "inferior." Who are these "infiltrating" or "inferior elements," anyway?

Isn't the foetus in the womb the premiere "infiltrating element"? Many of the earliest ideograms of #44 showed no woman at all, by the way, just the infant with little drops around its head that were said to be drops of amniotic fluid. I came into this world as an "infiltrating element" from inside the body of my mother.

Who is really caught in the electro-magnetic trap? All of us. The downside is the fear of being taken over, the wish to cling carried to an extreme, worse than being used and using, relentless yearning, actual loss of control without knowing why, as if the will were being sucked right out of your body by unseen forces . . . or a vampire! Everybody always loves vampire stories!

And yet it is said that there is no circumstance that the Superior Man, with the help of heaven, cannot turn to advantage and also use to benefit everyone else. That jumpstart example, by removing the overly subjective element, made hexagram 44 much clearer, at least for me. These forces are not as personal -- nor as sinister -- as we may think they are. I think an experience thread about hex 44 and other difficult hexagrams would be really useful. :bows::bows::bows:

barbra said:

.


Hexagram 44 may speak of human beings encountering situations where the attractive forces or magnetic forces are stronger than we are. The purpose of hexagram 44 may be to warn us or inform us that this is so.

Click to expand...

Yes that could be one way of seeing it.

Isn't the foetus in the womb the premiere "infiltrating element"? Many of the earliest ideograms of #44 showed no woman at all, by the way, just the infant with little drops around its head that were said to be drops of amniotic fluid. I came into this world as an "infiltrating element" from inside the body of my mother.

Who is really caught in the electro-magnetic trap? All of us. The downside is the fear of being taken over, the wish to cling carried to an extreme, worse than being used and using, relentless yearning, actual loss of control without knowing why, as if the will were being sucked right out of your body by unseen forces . . . or a vampire! Everybody always loves vampire stories!
And yet it is said that there is no circumstance that the Superior Man, with the help of heaven, cannot turn to advantage and also use to benefit everyone else. That jumpstart example, by removing the overly subjective element, made hexagram 44 much clearer, at least for me. These forces are not as personal -- nor as sinister -- as we may think they are. I think an experience thread about hex 44 and other difficult hexagrams would be really useful. :bows::bows::bows:

Click to expand...

Thats a great way of expressing an aspect of the 44 experience :bows:

barbra said:

... These forces are not as personal -- nor as sinister -- as we may think they are. I think an experience thread about hex 44 and other difficult hexagrams would be really useful...

Click to expand...

Barbra:

These matters have been examined by initiative of LiSe and Rosada in the following threads:

I have posted a linguistic analysis in the original thread without any response from Brad. (1)

There in resume I held that:

• the MWD character for GOU doesn't mean BITCH at all, it means DOG
• both characters, the used in the recived classic and the used in the MWD manuscript, share the same pronunciation and some disreputable meanings
• the syntax of both text is compatible with translations like «WOMEN ARE POWERFUL» (being the verb «to be» not explicit en the YI chinese), «FEMALE STRENGTH», etc.

The core text of the YI, or ZHOUYI doesn't allow derogatory interpretations toward women although there is a large tradition of false philosphy, deep prejudices, misogyny, in most of the highly accepted interpretations.

Many times the YI reflect contrasts among different marriage customs, there is a possibility that H.44 reflected some hidden discredit of usual marriage, based on economic or political interests of the families (2), that excerts no less violence on the women than the nomad custom of kidnapping brides, in favour of peasant customs, with its remnants of fertility rites, sexual freedom of youngs and consented relations.

In addition, I believe that the POWER recognized to women is mainly of biological and spiritual nature, based on reproductive capability and innate shamanism. And this power passes from woman to woman.

I apologize for some rudeness, but sometimes our weakenesses are stronger than us.

Yours,

Charly

___________________________
(1) the objections to Brad's tesis are in this post:

charly said:

...I like to translate GOU NU ZHUANG ... :

F_U_C_K !__G_I_R_L_S__A_R_E__P_O_ W_ E_ R_F_U_L ...​

Click to expand...

(2) I believe that it would be a nonsense to advice the wife suitors not to marry a woman of low morality, when the marriages were arranged by the families without any degree of freedom for youngs. Addenda: not to mary with a dominant woman → what passed if the woman were the daughter of the King? or if the daughter of a rich family?

So Charly you are assuming F U C K ! was used as an expletive in ancient China in exactly the same sense as we use it now ? I think it a bit of a stretch to be honest though not knowing Chinese I can't be sure. Language changes significantly even within a 100 years..thats even within one language, and you're saying even with a different language and the vast stretch of time passed the ancient Chinese said "F U C K ! its hot" or "F U C K ! its a powerful girl"...in the way we do... it doesn't seem likley to me Charly, we didn't even say that a few hundred years ago...used other words.

I often wonder how you tie your linguistic analysis in with your actual readings...your experience of 44 in your life

How to Cut and Run



I have to laugh. You know, this is a very heavyweight thread. Never mind. I've had this pernicious cold for over a week and am taking it out on this thread. Ordinarily, I aspire to a more graceful way of expression. I'm too old to be writing treatises involving Zeus, the American Rottweiler, and vampires. "Zeus and the Vampires" sounds like a very bad rock band.

Can't we just ward off wrongdoers without having to blame them and accuse them of having evil intentions? Wrongdoers usually do not have evil intentions. They just have a way of justifying anything they do. Many people who overpower others with their animal magnetism are not even aware of their own power and therefore never learned to control it.

By the way, the reason a man might not want to marry a strong woman was because, I think, at some point she could be expected to begin challenging her husband openly, "hen pecking" him. That dynamic would have been seen in ancient China as an unfortunate balance of forces within the family. The women and children were not to titter among themselves about the father's peculiarities, and so forth. They did not live with daily social chaos the way we do today. The rules pertaining to the various roles were very clearly understood by everybody. The type of woman seen as making the best wife was the submissive type. [Guess that would have left me out. ]

[I wish I could figure out how people are doing quotes. So far I don't see how they're doing that.]

[I don't like my name. I wish I had chosen a different name. Have the feeling it's too late, and I'm stuck with it. ]

[I think I might qualify as an actual hermit by now. I personally know two genuine hermits. Doesn't that fact in itself indicate something about me? But a hermit has to overcome that condition, I think, and come down from the mountain top. I'm thinking of sending my photo in to Clarity . . . maybe.]

trojan said:

So Charly you are assuming F U C K ! was used as an expletive in ancient China in exactly the same sense as we use it now ? I think it a bit of a stretch to be honest though not knowing Chinese I can't be sure. Language changes significantly even within a 100 years..thats even within one language, and you're saying even with a different language and the vast stretch of time passed the ancient Chinese said "F U C K ! its hot" or "F U C K ! its a powerful girl"...in the way we do... it doesn't seem likley to me Charly, we didn't even say that a few hundred years ago...used other words

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Trojan:

Maybe they didn't use it so, but we do.

Maybe they used some sort of expletive, say GOD!, DAMNNED!, MAN!, no matters the precise word used while it has some impact for you.

I believe that a DIRTY WORD fits better, it could be also a HOLY WORD. something so dirty, so sacred or so secret, that couldn't be named without blame. Then the original word was replaced by other. Under the pressure of tabu, all susbtitute become dirty but, hiddenly, remains sacred.

See you:

• the classic character for GOU means many things, among these to copulate or Ancestral Lady, why not GODDESS ?
  
• the MWD character for GOU means many things, among these DOG (not bitch), a DESPICABLE ANIMAL for chinese (→ DIRTY GUY), Lao said that men were like straw dogs (→ MEN). Concepts like dirty guys, little men, best friend of man, lead us to sexual male imagery (→ ***K)

Why do you believe all this respetable scholars from all the times spoke of women of low morality, mannish women, inconvenient for marriage and other pejorative concepts without any sustent in the text, that more or less says (1):



I'm force to recognize that you have all the reason, little chinese I know and little know the experts about the Zhou times chinese, it's very easy to be mistaken (2), but, I believe, not worse than follow the old accepted prejudices.

Little I've learned from books, much more I"ve learned from women.

Have you a "Happy 牛 Year!" (3)
Yours,

Charly

______________________________
(1) usual meanings:

女 nu3: lady / ladies / girl / girls
壯 zhuang4: strong / powerful / strength / power

勿 wu4: do not / prohibition
用 yong4: to use / to sacrifice
取 qu3: to grab / to catch
女 nu3: lady / ladies / girl / girls

(2) Here you have a story of somebody who (unwillingly or not) puts a sample of chinese popular literacy in the cover of a scientific magazine:
http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=881
Reported by Victor Mair in «Language Log»

(3) 牛niu2: ox / oxen → 2009 year of the ox

When I looked at a few of the letters my wife had signed, I noticed that she had added "Happy" on one side of the cow and "Year" on the other side of the cow. I thought that was extremely clever, because she was using the cow as a cross-lingual pun: "Happy 牛 Year!" Upon being read out as "Happy NIU2 Year," any speaker of English will immediately understand the greeting. And, this being the Chinese "Year of the NIU2," which was why I put that animal at the bottom of our New Year's message in the first place, Liqing's formulation is particularly fitting for the beginning of 2009.
From Victor Mair at: http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?author=13

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charly said:

Trojan:






I'm force to recognize that you have all the reason, little chinese I know and little know the experts about the Zhou times chinese, it's very easy to be mistaken (2), but, I believe, not worse than follow the old accepted prejudices.

Little I've learned from books, much more I"ve learned from women.

Have you a "Happy 牛 Year!" (3)
Yours,

Charly

______________________________


(3) 牛niu2: ox / oxen → 2009 year of the ox

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I know what you are saying about prejudices but I fear in your eagerness to get away from the prejudice you lose a great chunk of meaning. I accept there will be prejudice there but I think we have to dig our way around it to get to the truth rather than plaster a whole new 21st century politically correct ideology over it like wallpaper. I don't follow old accepted prejudices lol, you're not the only one to be aware of historic patriarchal values etc etc but I don't think you can effectively cut through that by wallpapering the Yi with reverse matriarchal/femininst(?) values. BTW I get confused because although you seem to promote the whole powerful woman thing you mainly refer to women as objects in your interpetations ...like for 50.1 (in memorising thread) about the upturned Ting you linked to a girl making a 'erotic' gesture of adjusting her sandal strap....everything to you in the Yi Charly is either a vagina or more rarely a penis....you do puzzle me thats why i wondered in your own readings all your answers concerned these parts of the body lucky you !


Happy New Year from Metal Rat

trojan said:

I know what you are saying about prejudices but I fear in your eagerness to get away from the prejudice you lose a great chunk of meaning. I accept there will be prejudice there but I think we have to dig our way around it to get to the truth rather than plaster a whole new 21st century politically correct ideology over it like wallpaper...

BTW I get confused because although you seem to promote the whole powerful woman thing you mainly refer to women as objects in your interpetations ...like for 50.1 (in memorising thread) about the upturned Ting you linked to a girl making a 'erotic' gesture of adjusting her sandal strap...

Happy New Year from Metal Rat

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Trojan:

I´m conscient that when somebody centers in one meaning uses to lose the others. I believe that hexagrams and lines of the YI have no fixed meanings. But have a fixed text that, although highly polisemic, doesn´t include much staff injected during centuries of commentaries.

When one examine the chinese text (I don´t say read or inmdiately understand, but looking here and there, searching dictionaries, comparing different translations), one see that much of the topics from long revered authorities are not in the text. Sometimes there are things quite different, bizarre, imaginative, remnants of old stages of culture, like in the folk stories. This findings are stimulant for me and I´m trying to encourage others to look at them.

Not that my apports were the only truth, there are too much stories in the YI, that´s why it serves as book of divination, enlightment, improvement, and joy.

How much weights a Shang or Zhou cauldron? I don´t see myself turning one up for the only purpose of cleaning it. In my home I use to clean the dishes, I know the job. If the cauldron falls accidentally it would be a very ominous omen for seeing there an opportunity for cleaning it up.

But if the cauldron were a living being? Eh, uncle, why are you turning me legs up? Remember that the YI is a flower grown in the fields of animism. All the things are spiritual beings, all the things have a soul, all the things can talk, protests or look seductive.

A cauldron legs up can be like a dog legs up, friendly disposition if male, submissivenes if female (I belive). That´s a very good omen, this dog doesn´t go to hurt you. Then if the cauldron is legs up, he is lucky, then we are well behaving. Cauldrons are mirrors where we see how are we behaving, if we are looking beautiful or uggly.

But chinese word have not singular/plural it could be ONE leg up. A woman with one leg up... I saw it somewhere. Some picture posted by Bruce, some sculptures at Khajuraho (is this well written?), the french can-can, the classic sculptures of Aphrodite/Venus adjusting the sandal, a girl in a modern chinese magazine, a world of nice possibilities.

Do you se a cauldron making the gesture of Aphodite? Me neither. It maybe could mean a monument to fertility, a womb with legs. Then the cauldron could be a Goddess, nothing sexy, much old goddesses were terrible, always surrounded by their necklaces of skulls or severed heads, maybe the eaten lovers.

Maybe it´s true that I see more female anathomy than male, because perhaps I like more women than men. Only a century ago in my country women were censored if showing say the knees. In some countries nowadays all the body could be censored. Thus you can find in the official YIs too much anathomy like feet, fingers, heads (sometimes severed), but not genitals. Did ancient chinese people lack of it?

Why noble people lying in Mawangdui cemetery had in their libraries side by side silk texts of Lao Tsé, the Zhou Yi, and bedchamber arts? If not interested in sexual affairs, why kings and rulers had so many wives and girl slaves. If only for genetical goals why had women to be beautiful and submissive when the uggly and dominant can give healthy heirs?

Maybe it´s my obsession but also was the obsession of chinese kings, nobles, rulers, officials and low people during centuries and centuries. Why could not it also affect the YI writers?

All under the sky have place in the YI, even rodents and horses, even you and me.

Don´t get upset with me (people use to do), I´m not wishing to offend anybody.

Yours,

Charly

____________________________________
P.D.: First time that I was called politically correct. I´m not a feminist although some friends of mine she are. I´m a little conservative, I prefer the word sex instead of the word genre. I like women, children, animals, plants even, sometimes, men. Do you see some hope for me?

"Do not grasp her" might mean "do not grasp her in the bushes but give her the respect she deserves". If it meant not to marry her, the character for marrying would have been used, rather than one which means "take, get, fetch". It is composed of ear and hand.

LiSe

charly said:

, do you see some hope for me?

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absolutely

barbra said:

I have to laugh. You know, this is a very heavyweight thread. Never mind. I've had this pernicious cold for over a week and am taking it out on this thread. Ordinarily, I aspire to a more graceful way of expression. I'm too old to be writing treatises involving Zeus, the American Rottweiler, and vampires. "Zeus and the Vampires" sounds like a very bad rock band.

Can't we just ward off wrongdoers without having to blame them and accuse them of having evil intentions? Wrongdoers usually do not have evil intentions. They just have a way of justifying anything they do. Many people who overpower others with their animal magnetism are not even aware of their own power and therefore never learned to control it.

By the way, the reason a man might not want to marry a strong woman was because, I think, at some point she could be expected to begin challenging her husband openly, "hen pecking" him. That dynamic would have been seen in ancient China as an unfortunate balance of forces within the family. The women and children were not to titter among themselves about the father's peculiarities, and so forth. They did not live with daily social chaos the way we do today. The rules pertaining to the various roles were very clearly understood by everybody. The type of woman seen as making the best wife was the submissive type. [Guess that would have left me out. ]

[I wish I could figure out how people are doing quotes. So far I don't see how they're doing that.]

[I don't like my name. I wish I had chosen a different name. Have the feeling it's too late, and I'm stuck with it. ]

[I think I might qualify as an actual hermit by now. I personally know two genuine hermits. Doesn't that fact in itself indicate something about me? But a hermit has to overcome that condition, I think, and come down from the mountain top. I'm thinking of sending my photo in to Clarity . . . maybe.]

Click to expand...

LOL.
the quote button is on the bottom right of the threads, if you wish to quote , go below the post and click the quote button

I thought barbra was your real name. some people do change their names on clarity. ive changed mine three times

somebody shoulda warned you when you started a 44 thread. this always happens! vampires and sex and rottweilers, it's all par for the course

Scorpios and getting grabby

Have you ever gotten close to either a Scorpio male or a Scorpio female? These individuals have a force field around them that is entirely tangible. It can be quite dizzying. No one could deny that this is so, since every time you hug a Scorpio, for whatever reason, there it is again: that magnetic force field around them.

If I thought all Scorpios were therefore good in bed, I would be very disappointed, because that is obviously not true. Scorpios tend to have a lot of magnetic force, however. Magnetic force and being good in bed or with relationships are not the same thing. Communication is important in relationships, but most of the Scorpios who I have met, and for some reason I have met a lot of Scorpios, are almost completely nonverbal. Everything to them is an unfathomable secret. Scorpios do not discuss. Perhaps music or the movies is more their medium, when they are not busy being nurses and surgeons.

Scorpio is the sign of birth, sex, death, and total transformation. This mix of the sacred and the profane must confound people to whom these opposites have no meeting point, nothing in common whatsoever.

Once I worked in a certain office, and whenever one of the professional men came in, I felt a subtle impulse to jump up on his back and take a ride, as if he were a pony. Of course, I didn't. A few years later, this man got married. He brought his new bride to the office a few days after the wedding, and she was a petite woman wearing a blond ponytail. She was very athletic; a personal trainer. She suddenly jumped right up on his back and rode him as if he were a pony!!! I just sat back and smiled at the newlyweds. Why was I not surprised.

Did this professional man with a Ph.D. know that for a life-long companion he wished a woman who would put on athletic sneakers, jump up, and try to ride him high on his shoulders? I tend to doubt it, but who am I to say . . . I tended to stay away from him, because he was one mixed-up individual, giving out a lot of peculiar vibrations, if you want to know my true opinion.

And so when we get our inklings and subtle knowings, they are all true. We learn to hold ourselves back from acting on impulses. Because the forces involved are unconscious.

Sometimes you meet a person, and their wrist is calling out to be grabbed. Many lines of hex 44 urge us not to follow through to grab that wrist. However, in the case of line 5, when we take that wrist, something tumbles down from heaven for us. If something is said to come from heaven, we are obviously advised to accept it, even though we may feel overpowered by it. Maybe that means it is inescapable, and for us here in the west, that means "scary," because we refuse to accept Fated things.

As for "vibrations" and magnetic attractions, we only hear of such things in stories and anecdotes, literature and the movies. Of all the traditional astrological signs here in the west, I feel that Scorpios are the most subject against their understanding and will to overpowering magnetic forces.

Perhaps as we get older and presumably wiser, we can finally get to that place where we honor all people as being the same, however much we tend to be deceived by illusory appearances, temptations, personal preferences, urges, and personalities. In other words, it is possible for the mind to develop some powers of discrimination, which I am proud to admit that mine probably did sometime late last year . . . . . .

charly said:

Trojan:



Maybe it´s my obsession but also was the obsession of chinese kings, nobles, rulers, officials and low people during centuries and centuries. Why could not it also affect the YI writers?

All under the sky have place in the YI, even rodents and horses, even you and me.

Don´t get upset with me (people use to do), I´m not wishing to offend anybody.

Yours,

Charly

____________________________________
P.D.: First time that I was called politically correct. I´m not a feminist although some friends of mine she are. I´m a little conservative, I prefer the word sex instead of the word genre. I like women, children, animals, plants even, sometimes, men. Do you see some hope for me?

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Hmm you mean sex was the obsession of Chinese Kings ? Well I can't argue with that on any solid footing but don't Kings have other things on their minds too, I mean like battles and territories, wealth and prosperity of the people. Any hope for you ? Plenty of hope Charly just so long as you are never crowned as King, your mind would not be on the welfare of the state

You ask 'why should it not affect writers of the Yi ?' well because I presume their scope of vision extended beyond sexual matters into the philosophical. If their minds never went beyond the sexual would they be able to produce the Yi ?

Anyway seriously I'm not upset nor have you offended me. I was only questioning your analysis here, not meaning to offend you or attack your approach in general which certainly adds life and colour to the forum