Hi All

This is my first post on this site. Though have been enjoying the site for many years.

The question I put to the Iching was whether it would be advantageous to continue doing art as my main focus(I am a practising artist) and have a small job on the side; or conversely to change my current focus and get a 'proper' job and do art on the side. I ask this question because I do have a family and also want what is best for them. Obviously its very difficult these days(and perhaps always has been) pursuing a creative path in life as opposed to a more practical one.

The answer i got was 25 present changing to 13.

The answer is very interesting also because it relates directly to a book i am reading on the poetry of Tukaram - an Indian folk poet known for his innocence and humility. In many profound ways his life embodies the qualities of hexagram 25 - Innocence and 'the unexpected'.

What do people think - is it as clear an answer as it appears to be??
Thanks in advance!

It suggests that you get a "proper"job and do your art as a past time at least until "things"improve.

Thanks Willow for the directness. The first hexagram i can see gives that answer especially the moving line, but what about the 13? How does it contribute to your conclusion?

Anyone else before I pack away the brushes and pull up the socks?

ariyeh said:

but what about the 13? How does it contribute to your conclusion?

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Hex 13 suggests going out into the world and thus working alongside who have the same needs, in this case money, so it would advise you to stop being coped up alone with your paint brushes for company.

Hexagram 13

Balkin says about H13 "The best way to realize your goals now is through participation in a group."

Assuming he is not talking about this group

Does the idea of doing something with your art in a group/fellowship/community provide you with any ideas or connect to anything?

tigerintheboat said:

Balkin says about H13 "The best way to realize your goals now is through participation in a group."

Click to expand...

A group working for a common cause to put bread on the table, in these times of recession.

Maybe 25.3 is advising against tethering your cow at all, not to art nor to a "proper job". Maybe you should be more like the wanderer who always has an eye out for opportunities. I'm not recommending you supplement your income through theft, but that you remain flexible and don't tie yourself completely to one path or the other. Perhaps in these tough economic times you'll need to put away the brushes for a while and find a full time job, but that doesn't mean you have to relegate your art to permanent 'hobby' status. As financial difficulties subside (both in your family and in the economy), you could look for full-time opportunities with more flexibility or part-time opportunities that provide a better income.

13 seems to point to the essence of your dilemma: you're caught between two clans, the Struggling Artist Clan and the Responsible Parent Clan. Being bi-clanal is a bit like being bi-racial or bi-cultural. It's hard to feel like you really belong anywhere. If you choose only one or the other, you'll fit more easily into the community and be able to travel a common path, but you risk losing touch with the other side of yourself. If you embrace both your identities, you'll have to blaze your own trail and carve out your own place in society. That's not easy or comfortable, but it may be worth it in the long run.

Thanks tigerintheboat and willowfox for the responses.

hmmm well... I should probably explain that I am actually making some money out of art. Just not quite as much as a 'proper' job would especially in these recession times. I am wondering if the 'group' could refer to the commercial art gallery i exhibit my work???

Also I do teach and plan to start teaching a little more- this is what i was talking as my side job 'doing art as my main focus(I am a practising artist) and have a small job on the side' - perhaps the group then could refer to an art school?

And in a totally different line there also may be an opportunity for a partnership with a friend on the horizon that may be quite a good money earner. But this is in the building industry??

And thanks titania to your thoughtful response and suggestions,

About the 'biclanism' you talk about, I was writing about this just the other day to a friend - in terms of the vast difference in understanding between the artistic'/ poetic/philosophical even visionary mind and the pragmatic wordly type mind.

re the 13 read my last post

25. Innocence makes several references to being "in harmony with the time."
In your posting you mention repeatedly how you do have ability as an artist, but are having a rough go in these tough economic times. Therefore I think this is an unusually straight forward response. You have to act in harmony with the time or you will meet with misfortune.

"Undeserved misfortune.
The cow that was tethered by someone
Is the wanderer's gain, the citizen's loss."

To me it seems the I Ching is saying to you, "Yes, you do have talent but opportunities for artists have been virtually stolen recently" Wilhelm further comments, "we must accommodate ourselves to the demands of the time, otherwise unexpected misfortune overtakes us."

The second hexagram, Fellowship with Men, encourages you to join with others. this could refer to anything from joining the 9-5 work force to an artists co-op, but the key idea here is to not go it alone, become part of a supportive group.

I am writing all this out because others have suggested all sorts of ways to read 25.3 as meaning something quite different. This is totally appropriate, of course, but I do think that we each would like to have the I Ching speak to us simply and clearly without confusion. By doing headstands trying to find some way of seeing answers that are deeper, more profound or simply more closer to our liking I think we risk training our unconscious to then give us answers that are convoluted and obscure. Kinda like when we decide which sides of the coin we're going to call yin and yang, it doesn't matter what we decide, as long as we stick with it. Likewise, if we program ourselves we're going to find our answers in the Easy zone the I Ching will follow our lead but if we get in the habit of rejecting the obvious then I think we risk training our unconscious to give us confusing answers that require headstands.
This is not to say we should not look for deeper or alternative interpretations. I just think we have to be careful we don't say, "Oh, I don't like that answer. I must not have understood." I guess I'm trying to say I think looking for the easiest most obvious answer first is a good place to start.
My2 cents,
rosada

What I see in this reading includes your relatedness to the world (13) and your choices about how to live it. I do not see, nor do I believe that the Yi is telling you which is right or better. Your conscience is related to your work, and you want to do the right thing. You want to be ethical and real. But you also want to be and feel connected to the world around you. The change line reminds you that, just because you do what your conscience tells you, doesn't mean providence's path will always be easy. A very old friend once told me, it's an artist's obligation to suffer.

Interesting how the I Ching doesn't fault the thief in line 25.3, it just comments that "the wanderer's gain is the citizen's loss." Sort of a "sometimes you're the hammer, sometime's you're the nail." Right now the times are favoring the other guy which is unfortunate for the artist, but doesn't necessarily mean there wont be opportunities later on.

What was the actual original question here? I don't think the I Ching is describing for you which path you should take but just commenting on how you should go about considering your choices. Consider what is demanded of you at this time - most likely the needs of the family - and what your options are, recognizing that The Force is steering you towards Fellowship with Men. Networking, I think.

whether it would be advantageous to continue doing art as my main focus(I am a practicing artist) and have a small job on the side?

The original question was not one but two questions, so let's cut the last one off and see what shows.

Now, the question is whether to continue doing the art thingy, and the line says No, if he continues, he loses.

And, if you read the commentary, which i think is quite appropriate, "one must accommodate themselves to the demands of the time, otherwise you are going to have major financial hassles".

ariyeh said:

Hi All

This is my first post on this site. Though have been enjoying the site for many years.

The question I put to the Iching was whether it would be advantageous to continue doing art as my main focus(I am a practising artist) and have a small job on the side; or conversely to change my current focus and get a 'proper' job and do art on the side. I ask this question because I do have a family and also want what is best for them. Obviously its very difficult these days(and perhaps always has been) pursuing a creative path in life as opposed to a more practical one.

The answer i got was 25 present changing to 13.

The answer is very interesting also because it relates directly to a book i am reading on the poetry of Tukaram - an Indian folk poet known for his innocence and humility. In many profound ways his life embodies the qualities of hexagram 25 - Innocence and 'the unexpected'.

What do people think - is it as clear an answer as it appears to be??
Thanks in advance!

Click to expand...

Haven't read other responses yet so may be repeating but I have found with 25.3 repeatedly the matter of the question is solved in an unexpected way due to some accidental occurence which is not good news for one party but has positive repercussions for another. Theres no right and wrong as such here but it does seem one person gains, one person loses. It is my experience that i the questioner tend to be the one gaining. last time it turned up i wanted to be able to get out of doing something, then someone had an accident and so i couldn't do it anyway. The accident was noones fault, just 'one of those things'...so i find the matter of the question is almost taken out of ones hands by unexpected circumstance. I guess I used to think one need consider if one is the traveller or the farmer, ie the one who is non permanent gains over the one who is established. Now after so many experiences with it as me gaining..always the traveller I'm not so sure..i feel it more a line of gain than loss, though thats just me. Anyway interesting this is a choice of permanent/established/proper job versus job on the side. 'Job on the side' seems the way to gain advantage...but then again with this line, with 25 in general, one cannot plan, its all about life just happening so i have a feeling this issue is going to resolve itself without much interference from you.

Though i said planning doesn't work here, because i associate 'proper job' with the farmer, i get the sense that unexpectedly you may profit more as an artist. Anyway these days no sooner someone gets a proper job they lose it again... I'm wondering if there any 'proper jobs'..anyway allow for unexpected solutions and if the solution appears to disadvantage someone else, don't worry theres no guilt..

Okay, standing on my head here, I wonder if 13 could be interpreted to mean the other sides of ourselves, the unused talents that now should be given a chance to express and participate. 13. Fellowship comes right after 12. Standstill, falling back on one's inner worth and not permitting self to be honored with revenue. Thus, when one's usual way of making money is no longer able to provide we retire that skill and join a group that can use our

If i considered 13 in it it would seem to me these 'things that just happen' usually stem from our wider collective...stating the obvious perhaps lol. Like as individuals we are all lottery balls being thrown about, random energy, ball a hits ball b, its not the fault of a or b, only a hurt his head and b got his job which was fortunate for b but not for a. Thats how it goes, how it is in the human tumbling machine set on 25 mode, we're all in it together. Your bag of apples fall out of your bag, later I come along and pick up your bag of apples, tough luck for you, apple pie for me...thats 25.3 > 13 to me. The one who possesses, the farmer, the owner of the bag of apples loses, can't hold onto what hes got, the passer by which you could call innocent pedestrian or 'thief' depending on the circumstances gains. I think the 'thief' is the one who just so happens, 25 like , to be trailing in the wake of a loss/accident etc..

terrible analogies

Hi,
Got pulled away, now can't remember my point. Geez, what does it mean when the cow just wanders off by itself?
Anyway, I like the idea of 13 encouraging getting out in the world and letting ideas bounce off each other. Hmm..now that I reread the image I see Wilhelm particularly states however that this isn't meant to mean to just throw in with anyone as that would be chaos, not fellowship.

Oh, now I remember what I was going to say. If 12 is Standstill and pulling back, and particularly not selling out. Like if you can't survive as an artist then make your living doing something else - don't go to work for Disney! In that case 13 could mean joining others in activities that are not using our usual talents, but other sides of ourselves entirely..
Thus
25.3 Artistic talents not paying the bills. Nobody's fault, just not a good time for the arts.
13. Get out there and mix it up and see what else attracts you.

rosada said:

Hi,

Anyway, I like the idea of 13 encouraging getting out in the world and letting ideas bounce off each other. Hmm..now that I reread the image I see Wilhelm particularly states however that this isn't meant to mean to just throw in with anyone as that would be chaos, not fellowship.


.

Click to expand...

But there is certainly an element of chaos in 25.3 or rather pure chance. Noone arranges to have their property stolen or arranges to encounter a thief...this is an effect of being part of the human soup (13)

Hi Ariyeh and welcome

I don’t have a clear answer, but I noticed some words that make me think.
At first hex 25, which is about one’s true nature. Is your artistic side that ?
And then the “undeserved misfortune”, the reason you asked that question. Current circumstances makes you wonder about the return of your time investment on arts.
And then there is the wanderer which sounds as a artist to me and the citizen more like the individual has to solve practical problems.
I can’s say leave /don’t leave the arts but what I see in that foggy line , is that there is something about the arty thing, a opportunity or something like that. Its just my impression, which doesn’t make a lot of sense but those three words “cow” , “wanderer” and “citizen” sound like they hide the *solution* of that puzzle.

Maria

That's an interesting insight, trojan. 25.3 has the element of pure chance and it changes to 13. the hexagram where "the superior man organizes and makes distinctions between things." Could this be about moving past seeing oneself a victim of chance to an understanding of all the variables?
Thus in response to the artist question, if one isn't able to make a living as an artist one might at first feel, "The economy is bad", "The artist always gets ripped off" or "Aw bad luck" but we find these excuses don't resolve the problem so the mind tries to alayize the situation more deeply. It's as if 13. Fellowship as represents all the various players and then by making distinctions between Luck, Timing, Location, Talent then from there one can make a more conscious decision about their next best course of action.

rosada said:

That's an interesting insight, trojan. 25.3 has the element of pure chance and it changes to 13. the hexagram where "the superior man organizes and makes distinctions between things." Could this be about moving past seeing oneself a victim of chance to an understanding of all the variables?
Thus in response to the artist question, if one isn't able to make a living as an artist one might at first feel, "The economy is bad", "The artist always gets ripped off" or "Aw bad luck" but we find these excuses don't resolve the problem so the mind tries to alayize the situation more deeply. It's as if 13. Fellowship as represents all the various players and then by making distinctions between Luck, Timing, Location, Talent then from there one can make a more conscious decision about their next best course of action.

Click to expand...

If you are a victim or benefactor of chance there is no need to move past it. Its is the reality. Not always but sometimes . I pick up you don't want to think that things such as accidents can be pure chance, you want to think everything is 'understandable' and has a reason that can be known to us. It isn't IMO. I think 25 is very much about that part of life that 'just happens'. I don't feel conscious decision is much a part of 25.3 so i don't think we are going to agree on this one

I don't see 'the artist always gets ripped off' or 'the economy is bad' in this possibly cos those thoughts aren't very much with me..I'm seeing the answer just as applying to the querant..simply that the part of the situation thats not stable, that doesn't possess, that isn't fixed, will gain in some way over the part that is more established and in some eyes more 'proper' ie 'proper job'..but how this might play out in this particular circumstance i have no idea.

I can't see any lesson in there at the moment other than a reminder that as part of the collective human soup we are going to hit the ups and the downs of it sometimes just cos thats the way the cookie crumbles. Many times things are direct consequences of our actions..but sometimes not..and we have to accept we are part of the whole thing (13)


I think we had this very same conversation in the 25 memorising thread lol, well it will be very interesting to know how this plays out

Did we? I'll have to go read the 25 thread again. That's the great thing about losing your memory, you're always learning new things...
rosada

Thanks everyone for all your amazing responses. I wasn't expecting anything really like this. Haven’t been able to write today as I’m in India at the moment and had no internet due to power issues.

My first response was to 25.3 when i got it was that I was glad I am the wanderer and not the citizen. It seems in that particular story the wanderer wins out. And the warning of the loss is to the pragmatist - the citizen; the wanderer ends up with the cow.

so it was kind of a go ahead to keep going as the wanderer (art and teaching job on the side) who is almost as innocent as the citizen. Both clearly have their natures and are innocent because they act according to these.

So my feeling was that it was a warning not to jump ship or to 'throw the baby out with the bathwater' – or to change course altogether which obviously I have been open to.

Though clearly there is a need to “accommodate” myself, “to the demands of the time” - paying the rent.

Re next bit: 13 – Also I don’t think I will be able to contribute to the 'goals of humanity' by jumping into a totally new field. I have been doing art for a lot of years now and have gained a lot of experience.

Fellowship clearly suggests working with others - I don’t know? Maybe an art institution and tutoring would fit the bill, or could the fellowship be suggesting the art gallery I am with????? What do people think in this regard?

I like the idea that something is going to happen of its own accord, I am always very much open to that sort of thing and am always looking for the signs. I mean the question is also kinds of, "should i take the bull by the horns...... or should i let chance and fortune take its course" I do also practice meditation and the state that the yogi always seeks is 'surrender' to divine will and when you can actually achieve and maintain this state things generally happen for the best and one feels 'looked after'. Taking the bull by the horns, is often what i try to do but more than often it is a case I get taught the lesson about 'a great big effort for very little result'.

-Also 13 speaks of perseverance
"The perseverance of the superior man furthers". -the main thing I have been doing is making art and exhibiting the last couple of years.

Regarding the recession, it hasn’t really had a huge impact on the bottom line. Although prices have halved I have been selling more work somehow. I don’t feel that bad about the lower prices either because I have always thought overall the price of art is way too high.

Sorry I havent responded to particular peoples responses, but i have read and am still digesting them all. Sorry also about the sloppiness of my response, I have been writing it for a while and just thought I better post the thing to give you guys some feedback and so you don’t all think I have just disappeared or something.