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dealing with divination results

dobro p

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You ask a question, you consult the Yi, you get your hexagram and maybe some changing lines. But what do you do with the results? I've always approached it this way: I've assumed that the more I understand the basic meanings of the hexagrams and lines, the more I understand what they symbolize, the better I'll be able to match that to the particulars and details of the situation I'm enquiring about. But I'm moving away from that model now. The shift is analogous to the difference between the way old webpages were generated from html and the way new web pages are generated from php code, if that's any use.

For instance, yesterday I asked a question and got my result - the same issue approached from two different angles gave me a 33 in one case, a 21 in the other. I was none the wiser though, because all that happened was each result just produced more questions in my mind. "Okay, 33 - but withdraw from WHAT?" "Sure thing, 21 - but bite through WHAT?" And yet asking these questions with a certain amount of energy and repetition started to yield results. Not conscious results, either. It was as if, by asking the questions that came into my conscious mind when I got the Yi results, life responded by dealing with the situation UNCONSCIOUSLY TO ME. Do you have the same reaction to this as me? It's astounding.

"Dobro, you don't know, and in this case at least, you don't need to know. You just have to do the work of wondering about what came into your mind when you got your Yi results."

Sometimes the Yi gives you something that generates understanding and answers. But sometimes it gives you something that generates no understanding, more questions, and a grain of sand in your oyster.
 

pantherpanther

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You ask a question, you consult the Yi, you get your hexagram and maybe some changing lines. But what do you do with the results? I've always approached it this way: I've assumed that the more I understand the basic meanings of the hexagrams and lines, the more I understand what they symbolize, the better I'll be able to match that to the particulars and details of the situation I'm enquiring about. But I'm moving away from that model now. The shift is analogous to the difference between the way old webpages were generated from html and the way new web pages are generated from php code, if that's any use.

For instance, yesterday I asked a question and got my result - the same issue approached from two different angles gave me a 33 in one case, a 21 in the other. I was none the wiser though, because all that happened was each result just produced more questions in my mind. "Okay, 33 - but withdraw from WHAT?" "Sure thing, 21 - but bite through WHAT?" And yet asking these questions with a certain amount of energy and repetition started to yield results. Not conscious results, either. It was as if, by asking the questions that came into my conscious mind when I got the Yi results, life responded by dealing with the situation UNCONSCIOUSLY TO ME. Do you have the same reaction to this as me? It's astounding.

"Dobro, you don't know, and in this case at least, you don't need to know. You just have to do the work of wondering about what came into your mind when you got your Yi results."

Sometimes the Yi gives you something that generates understanding and answers. But sometimes it gives you something that generates no understanding, more questions, and a grain of sand in your oyster.

A simple way of looking at it is that any text or work of art that is sourced from higher knowledge contains "sacred energy". Any part of it evokes the whole at one time. In the case of the Yi one line or one hexagram includes all the others. We may think it is like a "museum" with many objects to study and compare. But it doesn't work that way. It is a unity, we are not. We can experience a relation to unity although we aren't unified. Every sacred text or art is there to be a guide to relating to higher knowledge "as we are." "All must be called," as the Bible says. There is one teaching, but there are different versions to serve different groups at different times. The obligation to pray 5 times a day disciplined and united a collection of pagan Arab tribes. This provided the conditions for higher knowledge to be transmitted. The Yi has its cultural history, but the same source. Divination is a universal art and science, one the Buddha claims to have mastered in the Flower Ornament Scripture, among many other things. The practice of divining is one way to learn to relate to higher knowledge. So is any other art or science.
 

fkegan

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Hi Dobro,
You could consider the alternative answer, that it wasn't that the Yi changed on you, but the timing is different. Eclipses tend to be major end of a timing era transitions, so the old ways are being swept away NOW and hopefully, new stuff will appear soon.

Also, if you are having problems from asking many questions, try just thinking deeply upon your issue and let a single Oracle communicate with you. It is typical if you rely upon scholarship to interpret the Yi Oracle that you will feel more comfortable using many results to get a cloud of related meaning to work with.

Of course, there is the perspective that the translated names of the hexagrams don't really fully explain what the Oracle answer is and other sources and analysis of your Yi Oracle will do better than just going over and over the old assumptions of what the words might have meant millennia ago.

Or you can join the Panther^2 in the superstitious (in the literal sense of standing in awe and blind faith rather than conscious understanding) belief that there are secret founts of knowledge to be tapped like beer kegs if you find the right church key and body technique.

I would note that your reference to HTML coding is a bit too last century. When the Internet was just changing from Al Gore's network for Federal Research Institutions to share their formal papers into the hyperlink web surfing of short attention span multi-taskers, HTML coding was a serious challenge with thick books on the topic published. Then hope spread amongst tech bubble folks that they could catch the wave of the future. Then it became clear HTML coding is just format codes that are easier done in word processing packages as a minor detail of file formats. Web sites are done in web authoring software included in every word processor or any other text package now without folks paying much if any attention to any details of it.

So, I wonder what you thought you were referencing in your comment
The shift is analogous to the difference between the way old webpages were generated from html and the way new web pages are generated from php code, if that's any use.
php code is a variant of data base search query code such as MySQL, not really about web pages in general but some technical details of putting database search results up on web pages. Cf. http://www.weberdev.com/ViewArticle/Beginners-guide-to-PHP-and-MySQL

But let me comment upon your two Yi Oracles to try to help you out of your quagmire:

Hex 33 is not just the notion of "Withdraw" it is also the contemporary notion of Flight in the sense of taking off in your private airplane and getting up into the air.

In ancient Chinese terms, (cf. Sun Tzu The Art of War) a good general uses retreat not just as a tactical necessity but also as a strategic technique to take personal command of the war situation (not just the battle of the day) and create some artistry of expression at the expense of the static and timid old style army commanders.

As for hex 21, this isn't about gnawing upon anything really. The pattern of the Yin and Yang lines looks that way, so it becomes a convenient metaphor, but this is the hexagram of Karma, Justice or Cause-and-Effect (thunder and lightning always appear one after another, the powerful metaphor for the Divine Power of Consequences).

Together your two Oracle answers would suggest you need to focus upon what you are doing to express yourSelf and what are the consequences of such actions.

Hopefully, those alternative views of your mentioned hexagrams will help your interpretation process return to consciousness.

Best regards,
Frank
 
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dobro p

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A simple way of looking at it is that any text or work of art that is sourced from higher knowledge contains "sacred energy". Any part of it evokes the whole at one time. In the case of the Yi one line or one hexagram includes all the others. We may think it is like a "museum" with many objects to study and compare. But it doesn't work that way. It is a unity, we are not. We can experience a relation to unity although we aren't unified. Every sacred text or art is there to be a guide to relating to higher knowledge "as we are." "All must be called," as the Bible says. There is one teaching, but there are different versions to serve different groups at different times. The obligation to pray 5 times a day disciplined and united a collection of pagan Arab tribes. This provided the conditions for higher knowledge to be transmitted. The Yi has its cultural history, but the same source. Divination is a universal art and science, one the Buddha claims to have mastered in the Flower Ornament Scripture, among many other things. The practice of divining is one way to learn to relate to higher knowledge. So is any other art or science.

"The practice of divining is one way to learn to relate to higher knowledge. So is any other art or science."

I think I understand what you're saying, but consider this: most people, and in the consultation I described above I include myself in that group, consult the Yi not in order to relate to higher knowledge, but to avail themselves of an enhanced knowledge in order to deal with an issue in their ordinary 'down here' consciousness. People use it to find a mate, deal with an illness, sort out an argument, buy a house and so on - they seldom use it in order to access higher being (even if that's what's required in order to make it work lol). So, if you're right - if reading the Yi correctly requires 'learning to relate to higher knowledge' then using the Yi is a training ground, not for getting our little questions answered, but for something more important.

I like what you said. Thanks.
 
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meng

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But I'm moving away from that model now.

I was none the wiser though, because all that happened was each result just produced more questions in my mind. "Okay, 33 - but withdraw from WHAT?" "Sure thing, 21 - but bite through WHAT?" And yet asking these questions with a certain amount of energy and repetition started to yield results. Not conscious results, either. It was as if, by asking the questions that came into my conscious mind when I got the Yi results, life responded by dealing with the situation UNCONSCIOUSLY TO ME. Do you have the same reaction to this as me? It's astounding.

Yes. I think you've described the more subtle process well.
 

heylise

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A simple way of looking at it is that any text or work of art that is sourced from higher knowledge contains "sacred energy". ...The Yi has its cultural history, but the same source. Divination is a universal art and science...The practice of divining is one way to learn to relate to higher knowledge. So is any other art or science.

Makes a big lot of sense to me. But it includes Dobro's "when I got the Yi results, life responded by dealing with the situation UNCONSCIOUSLY TO ME ... most people consult the Yi .. to deal with an issue in their ordinary 'down here' consciousness"

Where else does that come from than from this same source or depth where higher knowledge resides? Many who consult try to find literal answers. Should I do this, does he love me, can I buy this house, how do I repair my broken car. Even for them letting the answers simmer inside for a while before looking for the facts would help a big lot. They skip a big source of possible solutions. Even the question "does he love me", which can be a tormenting insecurity as long as you 'think' about it, might become an inner 'knowing' if you let Yi's answer do the thinking for you.

To me it happens very often, when I lost something and I ask someone if she has maybe seen it somewhere, I suddenly know where it is. As if it loosens up something in my mind. I leave the groove of thinking which can be more like a circle, take a little step outside and there it is. Like the grain of sand in your eye you cannot see yourself and you ask another to get it out for you.
 

pantherpanther

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I think we have a natural wish to relate to something higher and at the same time we are concerned with meeting all the demands - real and imagined - life makes of us. The Yi can help us "relax," by reminding us of this natural wish we have.

I meant "relate to higher knowledge" in this sense. We have an inner space we often forget because our thoughts, feelings and -sensations take most of our attention as though they are "all of us." Learning to be a good diviner using the Yi as a guide can be a challenge to be more whole and complete humans.

I remember children's reaction to a Lohan in the Metropolitan in NY. Many felt it was alive. They were open to the energy that had been placed in it by the makers. The statue contained a teaching, which their minds were not yet developed to learn.
 
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rodaki

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You ask a question, you consult the Yi, you get your hexagram and maybe some changing lines. But what do you do with the results? I've always approached it this way: I've assumed that the more I understand the basic meanings of the hexagrams and lines, the more I understand what they symbolize, the better I'll be able to match that to the particulars and details of the situation I'm enquiring about. But I'm moving away from that model now. The shift is analogous to the difference between the way old webpages were generated from html and the way new web pages are generated from php code, if that's any use.

For instance, yesterday I asked a question and got my result - the same issue approached from two different angles gave me a 33 in one case, a 21 in the other. I was none the wiser though, because all that happened was each result just produced more questions in my mind. "Okay, 33 - but withdraw from WHAT?" "Sure thing, 21 - but bite through WHAT?" And yet asking these questions with a certain amount of energy and repetition started to yield results. Not conscious results, either. It was as if, by asking the questions that came into my conscious mind when I got the Yi results, life responded by dealing with the situation UNCONSCIOUSLY TO ME. Do you have the same reaction to this as me? It's astounding.

"Dobro, you don't know, and in this case at least, you don't need to know. You just have to do the work of wondering about what came into your mind when you got your Yi results."

Sometimes the Yi gives you something that generates understanding and answers. But sometimes it gives you something that generates no understanding, more questions, and a grain of sand in your oyster.

hello :)

there's something I'd like to ask people here . . do you think that all the reading you've done had a role in the maturing of this wonderful process?

the reason I ask is because I've had a strange experience related to reading in general -and studying in particular. Up to a point I was one of these people who read voraciously. Then something happened, I came across ideas that shook me to my bones and caused me to stop reading altogether for about 9-10 years. The funny thing is, that after about 3 years of starting to read again, I begun realizing that the way I approached my new readings, the way my mind processed information and reached conclusions, was very much unconsciously guided by everything I had read before my 'reading ban' . .
I was utterly surprised to find out that what I had read was not washed away by oblivion, but rather was silently processed and flourished as innate, by now, understanding.
That thing has put my current way of studying into whole new perspectives . . I tend to be too keen in reading more and more about whatever I'm fascinated with, only nowadays, even though often indulging my cravings, I am more aware that reading and comprehending is not necessarily knowing . . well, it can be, if my thought is ready to fully incorporate the new info, but many things will take much more time to digest and resurface . .

in other words, what I'm asking here is
Do you think you would be able to interact with answers in this particular way if it hadn't been for lot's of -seemingly- unproductive, mind-bogging, very logical and maybe sometimes incomprehensible studying?
Should one avoid getting too much into studying, attempting to rationally process information (learn in the traditional way)
or is this a kind of 'chopping wood' phase?
just to make clear, I'm not talking about reading in order to convince that you know, not reading as a way to instantly gratify our need for knowing, but rather studying for the sake of studying, without always demanding results . .
 
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maremaria

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For instance, yesterday I asked a question and got my result - the same issue approached from two different angles gave me a 33 in one case, a 21 in the other. I was none the wiser though, because all that happened was each result just produced more questions in my mind. "Okay, 33 - but withdraw from WHAT?" "Sure thing, 21 - but bite through WHAT?" ".

Happens often to me. :rolleyes:

And yet asking these questions with a certain amount of energy and repetition started to yield results. Not conscious results, either. It was as if, by asking the questions that came into my conscious mind when I got the Yi results, life responded by dealing with the situation UNCONSCIOUSLY TO ME. Do you have the same reaction to this as me? It's astounding.

"Dobro, you don't know, and in this case at least, you don't need to know. You just have to do the work of wondering about what came into your mind when you got your Yi results."

Sometimes the Yi gives you something that generates understanding and answers. But sometimes it gives you something that generates no understanding, more questions, and a grain of sand in your oyster.

Yes, its not easy to describe it though. Its like consciously you try to fill a glass with water but “unconsciously” you know that its already filled. Like someone/something has take care of it. Hmmm, maybe not a good analogy but this is how it feels.

And about "more question" sometimes , to me, is new questions.Like Yi push me, in a way, to focus somewhere else. Like a catalyst, Yi answers, initiate new chemical reactions.
 

javalava

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hello :)
...
in other words, what I'm asking here is
Do you think you would be able to interact with answers in this particular way if it hadn't been for lot's of -seemingly- unproductive, mind-bogging, very logical and maybe sometimes incomprehensible studying?
Should one avoid getting too much into studying, attempting to rationally process information (learn in the traditional way)
or is this a kind of 'chopping wood' phase?

Hello back :) (I've enjoyed reading yours and maremaria's posts, though I've never replied to you before).

I think I know what you mean about reading. If you let it, there seems to be a subconscious as well as a conscious element. The more meditative "sinking in" only happens for me when I read slowly (which I do most of the time these days). And then I think of it as a connection-making process. When something you've read joins things together (sometimes the new stuff with something you already knew, sometimes even between forgotten, unrelated things: an aha! insight), it is part of you somehow. Once there it becomes part of our sense-making when needed/called upon.

After a while these things seem to flatten into a "background". They can still do their work, though individual thoughts are not accessible any more. So when you do something new they inform/form how you react, but more as part of you than as some separate understanding. Is that like what you were referring to?

If that's the case, I would definitely say the "chopping wood" phase is essential. How else would these layers of experience become yours and "bed in"? So I think the studying is necessary -- and we can enjoy it for what it is, temporary entertainment.

Even knowing 70% of it will be forgotten. (That's what I find most annoying.) But perhaps that's just filtering "what I can relate to or cope with" out of what would otherwise drown us. And sometimes the stuff we've digested (like the "mind-boggling logical stuff") turns out to be not as useful as we thought it might have been?
 
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meng

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Or, when the answer you get has nothing to do with your question, and you knew that even before you asked. :mischief:
 

javalava

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I meant "relate to higher knowledge" in this sense. We have an inner space we often forget because our thoughts, feelings and -sensations take most of our attention as though they are "all of us." Learning to be a good diviner using the Yi as a guide can be a challenge to be more whole and complete humans.

Thanks, panther. Just wanted to say that I've particularly appreciated your pov in this thread :) .
 

my_key

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Yes, its not easy to describe it though. Its like consciously you try to fill a glass with water but “unconsciously” you know that its already filled. Like someone/something has take care of it. Hmmm, maybe not a good analogy but this is how it feels.

And about "more question" sometimes , to me, is new questions.Like Yi push me, in a way, to focus somewhere else. Like a catalyst, Yi answers, initiate new chemical reactions.

Maria
Interesting analogy...... for me the point where the answer becomes a quest along an analytical trail is the point where I realise that I have stepped off the straight and narrow and become enmeshed in the brambles and the thick undergrowth. There's a sense of you've gone too far, you've gone beyond what you really needed to get from this question / answer combination. You've gone beyond it without really grasping it.

What to do?. Sit back, put on some relaxing music, have a beer and chill. Distract yourself in any manner you may care to take.

Do I do follow this advice ?....No, not always, i might even be tempted to say rarely. Those brambles can have a strong magnetic attraction .

At times for me there is a strong sense of not needing to know the answer. What is that really going to do in the way of adding value. Just the act of asking the question is enough. I may want to know the answer but perhaps I don't need to know the answer. Even if I get the answer what am I going to do with it?

Sometimes it's hard to remember that the answers are easy, we've got a jamboree bag full of them, it's finding the right questions that is the truly difficult thing. So if I can't grasp the answer then maybe I've got to turn my thinking on it's head and say that's because I've asked the wrong question.

the reason I ask is because I've had a strange experience related to reading in general -and studying in particular. Up to a point I was one of these people who read voraciously. Then something happened, I came across ideas that shook me to my bones and caused me to stop reading altogether for about 9-10 years. The funny thing is, that after about 3 years of starting to read again, I begun realizing that the way I approached my new readings, the way my mind processed information and reached conclusions, was very much unconsciously guided by everything I had read before my 'reading ban' . .

Hi Dora
This is not unusual . Dredging the old memory banks......... In The Artist's Way by Julia Cameron there is some sort of observation that she makes about something like we have at some point got to stop clogging our brains up with other peoples stuff in order to make room for our own creative consciousness to flourish.


Mike
 
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javalava

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Do you have the same reaction to this as me? It's astounding.

"Dobro, you don't know, and in this case at least, you don't need to know. You just have to do the work of wondering about what came into your mind when you got your Yi results."

Sometimes the Yi gives you something that generates understanding and answers. But sometimes it gives you something that generates no understanding, more questions, and a grain of sand in your oyster.

Very much so. Though being newer at this than you, I suspect I'm not as good at it ;) . But my first reaction to a reading, more often than not, is "Eh? What's that got to do with anything?"

But respect for the oracle means it sits with me (though I'm thinking Yi is stupid /not working /random nonsense). But it does mean I start seeing that bit of what I'm doing in this new light...

And (more often than not) I have to say its "a grain of sand in my oyster" as you so aptly put it. Hilary goes on about giving things time and sitting with the "not knowing". Do you think this is what she's getting at?
 

dobro p

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hello :)

there's something I'd like to ask people here . . do you think that all the reading you've done had a role in the maturing of this wonderful process?

the reason I ask is because I've had a strange experience related to reading in general -and studying in particular. Up to a point I was one of these people who read voraciously. Then something happened, I came across ideas that shook me to my bones and caused me to stop reading altogether for about 9-10 years. The funny thing is, that after about 3 years of starting to read again, I begun realizing that the way I approached my new readings, the way my mind processed information and reached conclusions, was very much unconsciously guided by everything I had read before my 'reading ban' . .
I was utterly surprised to find out that what I had read was not washed away by oblivion, but rather was silently processed and flourished as innate, by now, understanding.
That thing has put my current way of studying into whole new perspectives . . I tend to be too keen in reading more and more about whatever I'm fascinated with, only nowadays, even though often indulging my cravings, I am more aware that reading and comprehending is not necessarily knowing . . well, it can be, if my thought is ready to fully incorporate the new info, but many things will take much more time to digest and resurface . .

in other words, what I'm asking here is
Do you think you would be able to interact with answers in this particular way if it hadn't been for lot's of -seemingly- unproductive, mind-bogging, very logical and maybe sometimes incomprehensible studying?
Should one avoid getting too much into studying, attempting to rationally process information (learn in the traditional way)
or is this a kind of 'chopping wood' phase?
just to make clear, I'm not talking about reading in order to convince that you know, not reading as a way to instantly gratify our need for knowing, but rather studying for the sake of studying, without always demanding results . .


I'm not sure. I got into the Yi because I wanted more context than my conscious mind was providing me in times of uncertainty (most times in my life lol) and because I wanted a way to relate to and dialogue with the unknown, if that makes any sense. When I got into the Yi, I found that a big obstacle to my understanding what it was saying to me (at least I thought it was an obstacle) was my ability to deal with metaphor, and so I studied the text pretty intensively for thirteen years - one result was that I'm really comfortable with metaphor now. But I found that my readings were really pretty mechanical. ('Crossing big river' was always 'embarking on a major course of action' for example.) I was translating, more than listening for the message. I read fast, rather than sitting with what the oracle gave me and mulling it. ("Mary kept all these things, pondering them in her heart.")

So, in answer to your question I'd be tempted to say that when you learn something new, the old understanding doesn't disappear, it just sort of falls into place and serves the newer understanding - so...no, I don't think all the studying was a waste of time, if it was a ripening process. But if it was just serving to block a new and better way of reading, then maybe.

But I have to return to 'I don't know'. You know, at the end of the session I described above, I was sitting there feeling stuck and stupid and I addressed the Yi again and said what was in me: "I don't understand." I tossed the coins and got 19 unchanging. I think the Yi was encouraging me in not knowing.
 
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dobro p

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Hi Dobro,
You could consider the alternative answer, that it wasn't that the Yi changed on you, but the timing is different. Eclipses tend to be major end of a timing era transitions, so the old ways are being swept away NOW and hopefully, new stuff will appear soon.

I hope so.


I would note that your reference to HTML coding is a bit too last century. When the Internet was just changing from Al Gore's network for Federal Research Institutions to share their formal papers into the hyperlink web surfing of short attention span multi-taskers, HTML coding was a serious challenge with thick books on the topic published. Then hope spread amongst tech bubble folks that they could catch the wave of the future. Then it became clear HTML coding is just format codes that are easier done in word processing packages as a minor detail of file formats. Web sites are done in web authoring software included in every word processor or any other text package now without folks paying much if any attention to any details of it.

So, I wonder what you thought you were referencing in your comment
php code is a variant of data base search query code such as MySQL, not really about web pages in general but some technical details of putting database search results up on web pages. Cf. http://www.weberdev.com/ViewArticle/Beginners-guide-to-PHP-and-MySQL

No, I just meant to contrast an older, clunky way of doing things with a newer, more effective way of proceeding.

But let me comment upon your two Yi Oracles to try to help you out of your quagmire:

Hex 33 is not just the notion of "Withdraw" it is also the contemporary notion of Flight in the sense of taking off in your private airplane and getting up into the air.

In ancient Chinese terms, (cf. Sun Tzu The Art of War) a good general uses retreat not just as a tactical necessity but also as a strategic technique to take personal command of the war situation (not just the battle of the day) and create some artistry of expression at the expense of the static and timid old style army commanders.

As for hex 21, this isn't about gnawing upon anything really. The pattern of the Yin and Yang lines looks that way, so it becomes a convenient metaphor, but this is the hexagram of Karma, Justice or Cause-and-Effect (thunder and lightning always appear one after another, the powerful metaphor for the Divine Power of Consequences).

Together your two Oracle answers would suggest you need to focus upon what you are doing to express yourSelf and what are the consequences of such actions.

Hopefully, those alternative views of your mentioned hexagrams will help your interpretation process return to consciousness.

Well, like I said in my original post, the whole process seemed to bypass consciousness completely, except for my consciousness of the Yi result, my incomprehension and emotion. Like I said, it was as if the universe was saying to me: "You want to know, but you don't need to know that stuff. You just need to ask these questions."

But I appreciate your offering your insights. I'd never thought of 33 as withdrawing from being earthbound before. That's cunning.
 

fkegan

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Each Yi Oracle isn't just a specific answer; but a reminder of the process involved.

Hi Dobro,

Your original post=1 for this thread included: 'But sometimes it gives you something that generates no understanding, more questions, and a grain of sand in your oyster.'
And in this post citing your feeling stuck and seeking help, the Oracle responded with hex19 about the natural process of flux and change of the Tao, which can be rising strongly at one moment, but must bring a downward slope in due time. And Overall, it is all just the ongoing rhythm of the interaction of Sunshine and Planet Earth.

In other words, the grain of sand will form a pearl in due time and it is a matter of not so much expecting to have clear answers right now to your specific question as it is to learn to have faith in the whole process.

It is like the phases many of us have had in our past of finding ourselves unable to stop casting the Oracle over and over, even though we lack the patience or calm to interpret
them. Eventually, you regain composure, Yi addiction is a benign teacher of the problem overall. When it happens it is an indicator that just having a process or ritual isn't the same as having a need for an answer.

Frank
 
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javalava

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Well, like I said in my original post, the whole process seemed to bypass consciousness completely, except for my consciousness of the Yi result, my incomprehension and emotion.

Dobro,

When I came across this thread and replied yesterday I was in the middle of an example (I think) of what you were saying. Of course, as it was happening unconsciously, I wasn't aware of it at the time ;) !

Yesterday morning I woke up out of sorts, not so much irritable as easily flustered. For example, someone stopped their car and asked me the way. But instead of pulling in to the curb they had stopped half-turned into a junction, with a queue of cars behind. I tried to answer as quickly as I could, but the episode stayed with me for some time; feeling guilty for not being clear? guilty for holding up the traffic? I only knew it had "got to me" in an unusual way.

This was just one amongst several things. So when I got home I asked Yi about it, expecting an answer along the lines, "You want to know why you were bothered? Look in the mirror." (Often a reasonable guess.)

But Yi replied with 27 unchanging. Eh? :confused: Jaws? Nourishment? Maybe I'd eaten something unusual (no) or people had been telling me things I should have "taken in" (didn't think so). Couldn't make any sense of this at all. But I was also too tired to be bothered so I thought no further.

Thanks for starting this interesting thread, BTW. Reading all the good things people were saying meant I went to bed happy. My dream included the trouble getting my newish coffee maker. It was nine weeks before I could use it; the first machine was lost by the courier and the second was faulty and had to be sent away for repair.

Anyway, I awoke from this dream and suddenly understood! :duh: 27, Nourishment, what goes in the mouth. Coffee. Since getting my new coffee machine I had been drinking more than usual (sometimes three cups at lunchtime). Hence the edginess.

Stupid me. Clever Yi, once again. I played no part in that interpretation (other than reading the Zhouyi oracle). It just simmered quietly in the background and woke me up when it was done :bows: .

 

rodaki

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After a while these things seem to flatten into a "background". They can still do their work, though individual thoughts are not accessible any more. So when you do something new they inform/form how you react, but more as part of you than as some separate understanding. Is that like what you were referring to?

Hi, Christopher
(I too have found lots to think about in your posts here and elsewhere :))

yes, that's it! What it comes down to can be quite peculiar, mostly because I can't tell anymore if and where does my thought end and other people's thoughts begin (which is really bad when trying to build an argument in academic context -always have to :brickwall: trying to trace back origins and give credit . .).
Which also means that 'knowledge' in the objective sense gets really skewed . . I'm very very bad in remembering specific data but quite good in following trains of thought, sometimes even reaching valid conclusions or associations, which then I can not structure in a solid way since I've reached them through leaps or dives rather than steps :eek:
usually I end up with clouds of ideas and connections rather than verifiable information . .
oh, and what a great way to get your coffee answer!!

Dobro:
I'm not sure. I got into the Yi because I wanted more context than my conscious mind was providing me in times of uncertainty (most times in my life lol) and because I wanted a way to relate to and dialogue with the unknown, if that makes any sense.


- so...no, I don't think all the studying was a waste of time, if it was a ripening process. But if it was just serving to block a new and better way of reading, then maybe.

But I have to return to 'I don't know'. You know, at the end of the session I described above, I was sitting there feeling stuck and stupid and I addressed the Yi again and said what was in me: "I don't understand." I tossed the coins and got 19 unchanging. I think the Yi was encouraging me in not knowing.

I too have found that Yi can be wonderful every time I confess my unknowing . . it has often worked as a 'restart' button too . . this is what I've tried to hint in another thread when I mentioned overworking ideas can be good if I 59.5 it in the end . . sweat it off -get in a maelstrom of ideas and analysis only to admit ignorance in the end is like getting all the thought-toxins out and starting fresh :)
maybe Yi was telling you 'now you're ready to really approach understanding' with 19?

the dialogue with the unknown makes perfect sense! it has been the reason for me to also dip my toes in philosophy, research or what have you . . I don't know if this sounds somehow off to people, but I have this faint idea that trying to get answers in any research context bears some resemblance to asking the Yi (especially when asking the Big questions), in the sense that the way people construct their answers in both cases is a result of 1) the dynamics of their inner landscape (patterns of thought and association) and 2) an encounter with the world through chance, mostly revealed in the way we end up with the specific textual material from which we excavate our own meanings (e.g. bibliography)
btw my experience has been in the realm of humanities' studies where there are innumerable ways to approach the very same questions . . how we end up doing it seems to comply to these 2 axes . .

"ripening or blocking process"? yes, this is what I was wondering too . . not sure, don't know, maybe will understand some day . .
:cool:
 

pantherpanther

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You ask a question, you consult the Yi, you get your hexagram and maybe some changing lines. But what do you do with the results? I've always approached it this way: I've assumed that the more I understand the basic meanings of the hexagrams and lines, the more I understand what they symbolize, the better I'll be able to match that to the particulars and details of the situation I'm enquiring about. But I'm moving away from that model now. The shift is analogous to the difference between the way old webpages were generated from html and the way new web pages are generated from php code, if that's any use.

For instance, yesterday I asked a question and got my result - the same issue approached from two different angles gave me a 33 in one case, a 21 in the other. I was none the wiser though, because all that happened was each result just produced more questions in my mind. "Okay, 33 - but withdraw from WHAT?" "Sure thing, 21 - but bite through WHAT?" And yet asking these questions with a certain amount of energy and repetition started to yield results. Not conscious results, either. It was as if, by asking the questions that came into my conscious mind when I got the Yi results, life responded by dealing with the situation UNCONSCIOUSLY TO ME. Do you have the same reaction to this as me? It's astounding.

"Dobro, you don't know, and in this case at least, you don't need to know. You just have to do the work of wondering about what came into your mind when you got your Yi results."

Sometimes the Yi gives you something that generates understanding and answers. But sometimes it gives you something that generates no understanding, more questions, and a grain of sand in your oyster.

dobro,

If I queried the Yi and received hex 33, I might take it as advice to be quieter, that is, in a more impartial state. It wouldn't necessarily relate to the question directly. It could be telling me how to seek an answer to my question. Maybe not, but perhaps I was too tense, to in the head and if I see that I'll begin to look at the "issue" in a new way. Similarly, hex 21 may suggest the need to be more serious and grounded - to be more willing "to pay what is necessary" to deal with a situation. If I feel that I may then get on with facing and solving a problem. Often I realize after I ask a question I already knew the answer.

The Yi describes "all situations and their changes." We may observe them in life and recognize they correspond to what the Yi described in such-and-such a hex. But divination is an art and a science. Diviners are individuals. Some are technicians,some intuitives, some follow certain lineage teachings , some have developed their own systems.

-p
 

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