As promised in this thread, I have another girl on my mind I need to ask about now. A little background:

I went on a few dates with her in February/March. Things fizzled out, more on her part than mine. Over the next couple of months I kept thinking about her, and once in a while I would try to contact her only to be rebuffed in my attempts. I definitely felt there was potential and was starting to feel attached to her. I was (and still am) 100% sure she is attracted to me physically, even though we've only gone as far as kissing. She finally told me in May that she didn't see any long term compatibility between us and as far as timing goes, she was having fun being single. She definitely seems to like to go out a lot.

Anyhow, I really tried to let it go but I felt like I must have done something wrong and it was bothering me a lot. Was I too aggressive, pushing to be more physical to fast? In the last couple of months the feeling got stronger and stronger, and I started feeling worse and worse. I finally sent her a long email last month baring myself and telling her about some of my own issues which I feel might have contributed to my behaviour of treating women as objects.

I didn't expect her to respond but she did, and she was very nice about it. We met up for drinks and dinner a couple weeks later just to catch up as friends. I wasn't sure what to expect, but everything went very well -- it was very comfortable with no awkwardness at all. She even came back to my place to watch a bit of TV before I drove her home. I made it clear to her that I was looking for a relationship (not necessarily with her, but in general). I confirmed after this meeting that I was still attracted and drawn to her and it was not just because she didn't want to see me anymore. I'm really ready to have a relationship right now rather than just date around.

That weekend we met up at a club (I told her where I would be, and she dragged all of her friends there so that she could meet me there), and things escalated physically very quickly. We danced and kissed all night at the club. She asked me "I thought we were going to be friends?" and I replied "I want more than that".

I had one more date with her a week and a half ago, and again it went really well. Now she is being really wishy-washy about seeing me again when I approach her to make another date, similar to how she behaved back in March. I've tried contacting her twice already with either no response or something like "I don't know, I'm busy this week", and if I do again I'm afraid I'll come off even clingier than I have already. I think the ball is in her court now.

Right now I'm vacillating between trying to see this through (I know it's going to take her time to get out of wanting to be single), or moving on. So I've asked the I Ching the following questions:

a) General Diagnosis of the relationship between X and I
56.1>30
Do I belong here at all, should I still have hope that it will work out?

b) Qualification of my position within the relation
46.2>15
I believe this is just echoing my state of mind. I think I will have to work hard for her.

c) Qualification of X's position within the relation
43.5>34
I think she is still not sure about me. What will she decide?

d) What is the best path for me to take related to this relationship?
58.1.2.5>16
I'm not sure how to interpret this one.

Any insight into this would be extremely helpful.

Look at line 56.1, this pretty much covers your situation, it suggests that you don't belong, that you are only passing through and should act accordingly, a visitor, so any further attempts will only lead to rejection.

Line 46.2 You don't fit in.

Line 43.5 It seems that she has made her decision.

Line 58.1.2.5 The best course as suggested here is to do your own thing and not rely on external people to make you feel happy, as in the end they will bring you no pleasure, therefore you need to see that this is going nowhere.

Thanks willowfox. I guess it's been so hard for me to let go because I don't understand how to reconcile this with her behaviour towards me when I am with her. She was very receptive to holding and kissing, and it seemed very passionate. That fact that she wouldn't let it go any further than that led me to believe she wanted to take it slowly rather than let it be just a fling.

I asked, what was she to me? 51 unchanging.

She shocked me; woke me up from hiding after the failure with the girl 3 years prior. I'm open to being in a relationship again after meeting her.

Is this the last I've heard from her? 51.1.4 >2

Hex 51.1 I think I'll hear something about her or from her that will relieve the tension and anguish that is within me right now. OR: this might be referring to the past, where she met me again after 5 months and helped me understand that it wasn't anything I did wrong the first time around.

Hex 51.4 But don't expect it to go any further than that.

Relating Hex 2: I should just sit back and take what's/who's going to come along next. It will be good for me.

Does this seem like a good interpretation?

Shocking

Is this the last I've heard from her? 51.1.4 >2

Hex 51.1 I think I'll hear something about her or from her that will relieve the tension and anguish that is within me right now. OR: this might be referring to the past, where she met me again after 5 months and helped me understand that it wasn't anything I did wrong the first time around.

Hex 51.4 But don't expect it to go any further than that.

Relating Hex 2: I should just sit back and take what's/who's going to come along next. It will be good for me.

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Well, she sure was a shock. Yi is insistent on this. And she has got you talking, thinking and maybe laughing. That's
line 1. But Line 4 says you are still mired in the shock...mired indicates not moving on. It sounds like you are stuck, or could get stuck if you are not careful.

As for H2, you could see it as being passive to whatever happens, or passive to this feminine shock. You are waiting to be led, and nothing here indicates that is wrong. Yi is suggesting being passive to whatever happens in this relationship.

Tiger

Hex 51 she was a wake up call, she rang your bell.

Is this the last I've heard from her? 51.1.4 >2 At least for a while.

Thanks for the help guys. I'm definitely still stuck emotionally, even though I know I need to move on.

I gave it one last try 3 days ago, just to be sure and to get some closure. I was pretty sure what the answer would be. I tried asking her out (this is all via text), and it took her 1 day to reply: "I'm sorry, I can't". I replied, "ok I'm sorry, I guess our last two meetings just threw me for a loop". She promptly replied, "I know I'm sorry. It shouldn't have happened like that. I think you're great but I told you where I stood in terms of a relationship before [when we met up for drinks a few weeks ago she did mention that she wasn't prepared to have a relationship right now -- she didn't want to have to consider someone else in all her actions]. And the last couple of times complicated that. So that's why I can't see you anymore." I replied "Ok, I respect that".

I guess I should have read the signs but I thought I could change her mind, and the way she was receptive to my advances in our last 2 meetings made me believe that. I'm still mired in shock, and I think it's hurts more because I opened myself and bared my feelings and issues to her and it still wasn't enough.

Some more background:

I'm used to having my way with girls that I don't care about, and I didn't care about her like that at first. However, when I first met her she rejected all my sexual advances (but she still slept over with me 3 times), which led me to believe she might be aiming for a relationship instead. I tried switching gears and I developed some feelings for her but she stopped wanting to see me after the fourth date.

When she told me why she couldn't see me anymore the first time around after me pushing and pushing for a date, her words were: "I'm enjoying the single life and I just don't see long term potential and compatibility between you and I" -- two contradictory statements which led me to believe that I had done something wrong and that I could fix.

I tried to leave it at that, but a few months later I wrote that email detailing my intimacy issues stemming from my childhood. and she agreed to see me again as friends. The rest is in my initial post but you can see why the mixed signals really got me thinking. If she just wanted to be single, why didn't she just sleep with me in the first place? That was all I was going for at first anyway. If she wanted long term potential, what if I showed her that I wanted to change? Anyway, our second round of meetings made me think things were turning around, and it really shocked me that it didn't. I was really having tunnel vision, wanting to get into a relationship without considering the other person. Did I really want a relationship with her, or did her behaviour just cause me to want a relationship period and she was conveniently there?

I think in the end, maybe it wasn't really about the girl. She's not someone I would normally be interested in physically, and right now she likes to party way too much. I just thought that she showed so much interest in me that we could have some fun and it was a sure thing. Her mixed signals really got me thinking, and to this day I'm not sure whether I'm hurting so much because I genuinely liked her or whether it was because her behaviour caused me to think about my past issues and I bared it all to someone who wasn't worth it. It really feels like I have an open wound right now.

My close friends came to support me yesterday. At the same time they sort of staged an intervention and told me I need to change some core things about myself before I could ever had a meaningful relationship (I'm 30 and I've never had one before). These are things I realized about myself after meeting this girl, but it was nice to know that my friends cared enough about me to tell me again.

I've been asking the I Ching stupid questions over and over again with jumbled answers, but I tried once more with the intention of posting it on here: What do I need to do to get over this?:

51.5>17
She comes and she goes. There's a lot to work on. Keep yourself busy and follow the stream of events.

I suppose it must have been a bit of a shock to the macho man in you but don't worry these things happen and you will soon get over your disappointment.

Thanks willowfox. I'm just feeling really raw right now, like my gut is being wrenched constantly. I hope it doesn't last too long.

well here's an update -- pretty much everything here has been accurate.

I did keep in touch with her via email just to see how we were both doing. She sent me a drunk text during Halloween 2009, although she never acted on it and we never met up. She claimed she was drunk and didn't even know she did it till the next day. After that she asked to cut all communication and for the most part I tried my best and respected that.

I understand all the facts and how I should have moved on and I tried really hard all of last year to get over it, but i was still mired in shock. She was out being single and meeting other people, but there was always that hope that once she was ready to slow down, that I would get another chance. In the mean time I tried going out with other people but she was always in the back of my mind.

I ran into her at a club last September 2010 (over a year after the last post from me) and attempted to catch up and see where she was at. I tried to protect myself from having feelings for her by setting up a date with someone else the next day. Anyway, in the meeting she told me she didn't have any romantic attachments and didn't want any, as she was planning to leave the country and move to London, UK for at least a year. It was all very friendly with no romantic undertones. I just wanted to catch up as a friend -- at least that's what I told myself.

The next evening, I was out on a first date with someone else and as we were having a drink, guess who walks in with another guy? It was just so improbable that we would run into each other in the same restaurant in that exact area. Neither of us live anywhere near there and it's a huge city. I became a wreck and my first date was ruined. I had to cut it short. I felt jealous even though I had no right to. (He ended up being someone like me -- someone she dated but decided was a no).

I tried to ask her to hang out shortly afterwards, but she declined citing what had happened between us before, and that her love life was complicated at that moment. I sent her an email soon after telling her how I was still stuck after a year, and that I needed closure and an explanation of her past behaviour to help me get over this. It took her a while to respond, but she did offer to have a chat to help me out. However, I didn't follow up on it till recently as she went on a long vacation, then I went on a long vacation, and I was also debating whether it was worth the trouble.

I finally decided that I needed the closure and met up with her last weekend. She tried her best to explain her behaviour, but it really was as simple as the readings said. I was just a visitor -- she had her fun but decided wasn't ever going anywhere. She didn't sleep with me because she's conservative and doesn't sleep around -- kissing was fun enough for her, and she kissed a LOT of guys in the last 2 years. When we had that 2nd episode 6 months after the first time, she was just going with the moment and didn't realize the consequences of her actions.

Anyway, what hurts the most this time around is that in the last 3-4 months, despite her protestations that she didn't want any attachments, something happened between her and an old college friend of hers who came to visit. She was going to move to from Canada to the UK, and he lives in another city NY. They debated long and hard about the prudence of starting something, but decided to give it a try, and now they are BOTH moving to London together in 2 months. She says this is the first time a relationship has ever felt right for her, even though it happened with the worst timing.

I really wanted to get over this and tried my hardest to do my own thing and date other people, but I was still mired in shock. I think I really needed this final nail in the coffin for me to really get over it, but I had no idea that it would hurt this much. It hurts exactly the same as the last post over a year ago. I feel like I am punched in the gut constantly.

Once again I've been asking the I Ching stupid questions over and over again with jumbled answers, but I tried once more with the intention of posting it on here: What do I need to do to get over this?:

37.1.3.6>8
My mind's too jumbled right now to make any sense of this but if anyone could give some advice it would be greatly appreciated.

37.1 you need to define the way you relate, communicate with each other, you need clear boundaries...its not fair that you have to know everything that is going on in her love life nor is it healthy for you

37.3
again I see need for firm rules and boundaries...and you will will have to build them is my impression because she doesn't seem to understand limits and why they are needed in human relations

37.6 I think the master of the house needs to be you, an inner authority and you need to lead with integrity and also respect for your own needs. create the order within which you can relate to this person without her crossing boundaries and hurting you, she obviously doesn't get it and as you say to her own admission her love life is complicated...in other words, slightly dysfunctional?

8, I think describes the context, you need to apply 37 and the changing lines in context of this union/association, it will be good in the end, but also look at the first readings you cast...your insights above are quite clear and they still hold true

maybe your next question could be why have you attracted this situation? do you feel you need a hard time in love for love to be real? I know that sounds harsh, but I believe there is someone out there for everyone but that we all get caught up in our own webs and block it from happening for us the way we want it to. Or maybe this girl simply has attracted you to give you the opportunity to desire someone without getting to posses them, asking what lesson she is providing you the opportunity to learn can also be enlightening...

chingching said:

37.1 you need to define the way you relate, communicate with each other, you need clear boundaries...its not fair that you have to know everything that is going on in her love life nor is it healthy for you

37.3
again I see need for firm rules and boundaries...and you will will have to build them is my impression because she doesn't seem to understand limits and why they are needed in human relations

37.6 I think the master of the house needs to be you, an inner authority and you need to lead with integrity and also respect for your own needs. create the order within which you can relate to this person without her crossing boundaries and hurting you, she obviously doesn't get it and as you say to her own admission her love life is complicated...in other words, slightly dysfunctional?

8, I think describes the context, you need to apply 37 and the changing lines in context of this union/association, it will be good in the end, but also look at the first readings you cast...your insights above are quite clear and they still hold true

maybe your next question could be why have you attracted this situation? do you feel you need a hard time in love for love to be real? I know that sounds harsh, but I believe there is someone out there for everyone but that we all get caught up in our own webs and block it from happening for us the way we want it to. Or maybe this girl simply has attracted you to give you the opportunity to desire someone without getting to posses them, asking what lesson she is providing you the opportunity to learn can also be enlightening...

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Thanks for this insight -- I think you are right in that I let the barriers down a bit too early with her. I think it all started from our first date -- I had never had an experience like that before: she spent the night with me yet refused to kiss so it was very intense, and to me, very intimate. I guess that "you can't have it" theme started from there also. I usually don't let anyone in at all, which I thought was a fault so I guess I was trying the opposite to the extreme this time. I've learned from this experience that somewhere in between is probably the best thing.

I don't feel that I need a hard time in love for it to be real. I have wanted a connection with someone for a long time, and I just never felt that connection with most of the people I've dated lately. I do feel that I missed an opportunity with someone last year while I was moping, but I'm ready to open my heart to someone new now, especially after I got the closure. I shouldn't have needed it from her but I was in so deep that I did, and it has helped me move on.

I've thought about why I wanted her so much and why I couldn't shake it. Although I believe a big part of it was because I couldn't have her (even she suggested this at our final meeting), there were a lot of qualities in her that I wanted in a mate too, which made it that much harder. I could actually see a relationship with her eventually, and at the time I hadn't seen that potential in anyone else in a while. Her confusing hot and cold behaviour towards me didn't help either.

Anyway, I do feel a lot better about this now. In terms of boundaries -- I removed her from my phonebook and facebook last year. Facebook was really a big factor in all this -- seeing someone's life unfold without you really sucks, and she kept "liking" and commenting on my stuff even after deciding to not see me anymore. I've decided not to re-add her until I'm ready to, and that'll probably be when I don't care to anymore.

yes facebook! too easy to be a voyeur. Well at least you know better what you want in a partner... that's not for nothing!

here's a good story... a friend of mine had a "clayton's relationship" (clayton's the non alcoholic drink) with a friend of hers that she really wanted to make into an intimate relationship and when she turned 30 it finally happened... she had him, but found that the reality didn't match up to the fantasy, so they worked it out went back to being friends, then a month later she met a guy at gig... who she now calls the love of her life. Ahhhh happy endings...

Hi dickydoo,

I'm sorry that you had/have to go through that. I guess life is all about learning lessons
Maybe true love will come your way, when you won't be searching for it, perhaps it'll come when you least expect it.

Maybe this quote will help you in a way:

Love Is...

Most of the people I know confuse love with possession. It's easy to see why; it's built into the fundamental assumptions of our culture. "You're mine," says the popular song, "and we belong together." Hardly anyone stops to question the sentiment.

As soon as we feel love, we immediately attempt to possess. We speak confidently of my boyfriend, my wife, my child, my parent. We feel justified in holding expectations about those people. We consider that perfectly reasonable.

Why? Because all our concepts of love ultimately derive from romantic love — and romantic love is furiously, frantically possessive. We want to be with our lover, to have them to ourselves, to feel their eyes on us, to consume their minds and bodies...to possess them.

So strongly do we equate love with possession that we may even feel if someone doesn't want to possess us, they don't really love us. Yet I would argue that what we call romantic love is not love at all. It's a kind of emotional storm, an overpowering, thrilling attraction — but it isn't love.

Because real love isn't possessive. It can't be. We'd all agree that love involves giving, not taking. Yet the desire to possess actually springs from the lover's own need — the need for approval from the beloved, for support from a parent, for straight A's from a child, for status, for financial security — for something. A possessive lover is overly focused on what he's getting, not what he's giving. The lover may dignify his dependency with the name love, but it's a lie. How can you really love somebody when you're dependent on them for things you need? That isn't love, that's just manipulation to keep the needed stuff coming your way. Robert Palmer sings about being "addicted to love," but nobody really is. People are addicted to their needs.

And love isn't the same as need. It just isn't.

Of course, a loving relationship will produce interdependencies. But all too often, the pleasure of freely giving changes to a fear of possibly not getting. It's just that this person — your husband, your girlfriend, your child — is suddenly so important to you. You worry about what's going to happen. What they're going to do. And at that moment, love stops.

People sometimes wonder if they're feeling real love. These same people never wonder if they're sexually aroused, or sad. Then what's the problem about recognizing love? Most often, because they're sensing a conflict: they're feeling the depth of their need, not the heights of their love.

There are ways to know real love. It feels calm. It's steady, and it can easily last a lifetime. It's nourishing — people grow under its influence. They become who they really are, and now what someone expects them to be. Real love isn't blind; on the contrary, people feel understood, accepted for who they really are. It's healing. People recover.

So whenever you hear that love is blind, or love can't last, or love is destructive, you can be sure that you're hearing a description of lust, or desire, or need. And it's an accurate description, because needs really are transient and destructive.

But love is something else entirely. An emotion of deep caring that asks nothing in return, an emotion that is fulfilling without any expectation at all, is so rare that most people in our society can't imagine it. They can't imagine feeling it, or receiving it. They may even come to believe it doesn't exist. But it does.

And it's the best thing there is.

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Thanks chingching for the words of support.

Pook that quote is especially good and quite profound. I can only hope I could find love like that someday.

oh i wanted to add having boundaries and keeping your guard up are two very different things, you can have boundaries and be open at the same time, boundaries are just for example if she calls you in the middle of the night dont answer, because thats an inappropriate hour for her to ring someone that she defines just as a friend.

I have been through this very same experience many times and the simple phrase, that this too shall pass, has always helped.

Pook that really is a great quote