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AltVis8D

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'lo all, and a low bow,

I'm wondering what anybody has to say about symmetry and asymmetry as attributes of Yin and Yang.

My own confusion comes from my outline of an understanding of group-theory and the scientific definition of symmetry as those parts of something which survive a given instance of change.

Given this definition, symmetry is a passive principle, the odd remainder so to speak (or, is it even?) Change is the active principle, and so it is easily identified with yang.

But the ultimate, ever-changing context of the universe is formless, and therefore asymmetric; and similarly, yang defines the individual in relation to this yin contextual precedence - every identifiable 'thing' is bisected, polar, balanced by its opposite number; in this instance, yang feels to me to be the symmetrical, structural principle.

It is enough to drive a Durer to melancholy madness.

What think you?

Thanks,
Justin
 

pantherpanther

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'lo all, and a low bow,

I'm wondering what anybody has to say about symmetry and asymmetry as attributes of Yin and Yang.

My own confusion comes from my outline of an understanding of group-theory and the scientific definition of symmetry as those parts of something which survive a given instance of change.

Given this definition, symmetry is a passive principle, the odd remainder so to speak (or, is it even?) Change is the active principle, and so it is easily identified with yang.

But the ultimate, ever-changing context of the universe is formless, and therefore asymmetric; and similarly, yang defines the individual in relation to this yin contextual precedence - every identifiable 'thing' is bisected, polar, balanced by its opposite number; in this instance, yang feels to me to be the symmetrical, structural principle.

It is enough to drive a Durer to melancholy madness.

What think you?

Thanks,
Justin

Change involves three forces: active, passive, and neutralizing. Yang includes yin, and vice versa. The reconciling force relates them. There are two directions or movements. Involution is the process and structure of existence which creates increasing material complexity. Evolution is the process and structure of increasing functional complexity.
 
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Sparhawk

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'lo all, and a low bow,

I'm wondering what anybody has to say about symmetry and asymmetry as attributes of Yin and Yang.

My own confusion comes from my outline of an understanding of group-theory and the scientific definition of symmetry as those parts of something which survive a given instance of change.

Given this definition, symmetry is a passive principle, the odd remainder so to speak (or, is it even?) Change is the active principle, and so it is easily identified with yang.

But the ultimate, ever-changing context of the universe is formless, and therefore asymmetric; and similarly, yang defines the individual in relation to this yin contextual precedence - every identifiable 'thing' is bisected, polar, balanced by its opposite number; in this instance, yang feels to me to be the symmetrical, structural principle.

Hi Justin,

If you have the patience for some heady reading and a bubbly personality, may I suggest you befriend Chris Lofting in Facebook? He has some interesting ideas about dichotomies and symmetries. For example, check his comments to my Facebook link to Garret Lisi's talk.

Best,
 

fkegan

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Hi Justin,

You start with a strange definition of symmetry and then try to shoehorn Yang/Yin into it. I would suggest a different tack. Yang in terms of its Chinese ideogram refers to a flag or pennant clearly visible in the sun as modifier to the element to mountain. Yin ideogram is that same mountain element with another for a dark or shaded valley.

The notion of Gestalt figure and background seems more relevant than a definition of symmetry that assumes some parts of an entity change and others don't. Fundamental reality suggests that everything is in an eternal state of Flux and the belief that anything is static or constant is more about expectations than reality.

In general, I believe strongly all the math and science you are studying became obsolete in the I Ching world in 1100 BCE with the introduction of the Chou Yi. It is now a new millennium and even Great Age after 2001, traditionally a time for new thinking. Einstein's four great papers were before 1910 and not so much as the 20th century grew old.

New Thinking is afoot now but in your terms, the limited or specific is always the realm of the Odd numbers which are male; while the context or Unlimited or thus available to change is grouped with the feminine or even numbers.

Frank
 
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meng

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'lo all, and a low bow,

I'm wondering what anybody has to say about symmetry and asymmetry as attributes of Yin and Yang.

My own confusion comes from my outline of an understanding of group-theory and the scientific definition of symmetry as those parts of something which survive a given instance of change.

Given this definition, symmetry is a passive principle, the odd remainder so to speak (or, is it even?) Change is the active principle, and so it is easily identified with yang.

But the ultimate, ever-changing context of the universe is formless, and therefore asymmetric; and similarly, yang defines the individual in relation to this yin contextual precedence - every identifiable 'thing' is bisected, polar, balanced by its opposite number; in this instance, yang feels to me to be the symmetrical, structural principle.

It is enough to drive a Durer to melancholy madness.

What think you?

Thanks,
Justin

I would venture that symmetry is expressed in hex 2, and asymmetry in 1. Wilhelm provides an interesting illustration of 3-dimensional symetry in his 2.2 commentary. I question, however, that heaven can be characterized by perfect circle, but rather is expressed as infinite potential, while all laws of nature originate in symmetries.

Straight, square, great.
Without purpose,
Yet nothing remains unfurthered.
The symbol of heaven is the circle, and that of earth is the square. Thus squareness is a primary quality of the earth. On the other hand, movement in a straight line, as well as magnitude, is a primary quality of the Creative (1). But all square things have their origin in a straight line and in turn form solid bodies. In mathematics, when we discriminate between lines, planes and solids, we find that rectangular planes result from straight lines, and cubic magnitudes from rectangular planes. The Receptive (2) accommodates itself to the qualities of the Creative (1) and makes them its own. Thus a square develops out of a straight line and a cube out of a square. This is compliance with the laws of the Creative (1); nothing is taken away, nothing added. Therefore the Receptive (2) has no need of a special purpose of its own, nor of any effort" yet everything turns out as it should.

Nature creates all beings without erring: this is its foursquareness. It tolerates all creatures equally: this is its greatness. Therefore it attains what's right for all without artifice or special intentions. Man achieves the height of wisdom when all that he does is as self-evident as what nature does.

I don't regard 2/earth as a passive principle but an enabling one: ready to receive and multiply.
 

solun

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Hi justin,

ever see pictures of the Mandelbrot set? (don't know if I spelled that right) Look into it if you have the chance.
It goes on for infinity.
Principles, particularly polemic ones, like active/passive, symmetric/asymmetric ... etc. are useful in a defintional sense and are very temporal, two dimensional.
The universe is dynamic, and so are all of the principles, depending on how you see and apply them.
I see as much motion and activity in the supposed static of symmetry as in asymmetry. Symmetry itself radiates. This is certainly dynamic. Just look at a mandala and how it's used in meditation.
Yin and yang exist within each other. We are talking about infiinity here, the symbol for which is like a three dimensional yin/yang. A floating circle.
The question about symmetry is more about orientation. Are you looking at a line from the side, or staring down the center of it as a point?! Relativity has it's place in the universe. yes, there are standard forms and processes in our world, but everything must retain a certain elasticity if it is to endure.

I have found it difficult to see yang means this, yin means that. Well, it does and it doesn't - because they eventually become one another!
And in life there is no perfect symmetry. What about the crab who has one huge claw and one small one?
It's possible that asymmetry is just a weird-angle snapshot in time. But what's the difference? Life is so varied, there could be similarly asymmetric others out there somewhere. Symmetry!
 
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meng

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Theoretically, if my understanding is accurate, elasticity is an attribute of hex 1. It is a line, but not necessarily a straight one, but one which defines things as gravity and time - inasmuch as those things are relatively definable :confused:. I think to say, it is asymmetric, within the context of Yijing, would be a fair statement. The dutamas of 1 keeps it all in motion.

Yi is itself a breakdown of wholeness. That's what I liked about Steve's story. It's Eden's uneatable apple - 23.6.

But just how far will the breakdown go before it breaks down, back into the whole? (said 3x fast)
 

rodaki

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what with symmetries, Mandelbrot, and Yi as breaking down the whole, here's another idea . . could it be that Yi's 64 hexagrams break down the present moment just like a kaleidoscope breaks down an object? at each question we read our place in this refracted analysis, being in symmetry with some parts, in asymmetry with others and in a balance that is always about to change . .
As Solun said, it's hard to separate which force each time operates to name it as such . . it's interesting though to make the question just like throwing the ball and seeing what comes out of it . .
 
M

meng

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here's another idea . . could it be that Yi's 64 hexagrams break down the present moment just like a kaleidoscope breaks down an object? at each question we read our place in this refracted analysis, being in symmetry with some parts, in asymmetry with others and in a balance that is always about to change . .
As Solun said, it's hard to separate which force each time operates to name it as such . . it's interesting though to make the question just like throwing the ball and seeing what comes out of it . .

I think that's what happens. The kaleidoscope are the particles (sorry, I know some people don't like partial or vague references to quantum theory, but the images just fit too well to not use them) contained in the time wave of the inquiry (the ball). That's also, in so many words, what Jung put forth as an explanation of what happens during Yi divination. The moment 'coins fall' is the same moment for everything everywhere, along with all knowledge and all potential. Addressing your question was part of what exists in the moment everywhere. That's a different model of time than our relative sun-to-earth time.
 

pantherpanther

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Hi justin,

ever see pictures of the Mandelbrot set? (don't know if I spelled that right) Look into it if you have the chance.
It goes on for infinity.
Principles, particularly polemic ones, like active/passive, symmetric/asymmetric ... etc. are useful in a defintional sense and are very temporal, two dimensional.
The universe is dynamic, and so are all of the principles, depending on how you see and apply them.
I see as much motion and activity in the supposed static of symmetry as in asymmetry. Symmetry itself radiates. This is certainly dynamic. Just look at a mandala and how it's used in meditation.
Yin and yang exist within each other. We are talking about infiinity here, the symbol for which is like a three dimensional yin/yang. A floating circle.
The question about symmetry is more about orientation. Are you looking at a line from the side, or staring down the center of it as a point?! Relativity has it's place in the universe. yes, there are standard forms and processes in our world, but everything must retain a certain elasticity if it is to endure.

I have found it difficult to see yang means this, yin means that. Well, it does and it doesn't - because they eventually become one another!
And in life there is no perfect symmetry. What about the crab who has one huge claw and one small one?
It's possible that asymmetry is just a weird-angle snapshot in time. But what's the difference? Life is so varied, there could be similarly asymmetric others out there somewhere. Symmetry!

The yin and yang represent a transitory moment that can develop in an involutionary or evolutionary way through how the third force of Tao is involved. .

For example, an intense bringing together of the positive and negative in the moment can transmute the binary into the quaternary, that is in evolutionary direction. Four elements will then be available: yes, no, dispute, result.

Einstein's equation E=mc2, shows the equivalence of matter and energy and their relationship to time. This implies that things develop in one direction, that is a Creator ("God doesn't play dice with the universe" according to Einstein) works in an "involutionary way." The reverse or evolutionary movement, which Heisenberg perceived as indeterminacy, is not explained.

All the traditional teachings understood the work of the three forces:
Christian - Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
Taoist - Yin, Yang, Tao
Hinduism - Brahma is the creator, Shiva is the destroyer, Vishnu is the preserver.
Zoroastrian - Ahura Mazda is the father of two twin spirits, Angra Mainyu is the destructive one, Spenta Mainyu is the holy spirit, and so on.

Every Hexagram and line represents a "timeless" moment that has different possibilities. The more present we are to it the more possible it is to work with both the involutionary and evolutionary currents. We don't "change" them or "do" anything(although that is a temptation for the ego to do and many teachers have succumbed to it and "devolved" and lost all they had gained); rather,we participate in both as an impartial mediator "between Heaven and Earth".
 

rodaki

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brewing thoughts . .

uneatable fruit

( . . . )
Addressing your question was part of what exists in the moment

those two somehow signal at predetermination? this uneatable fruit makes me wonder why is it so . . has it been eaten already or does it hang beyond anyone's reach? Saying that the reading was already part of the moment can send one straight into a 'strange loop' (an involutionary process if I get right what you are saying here Panther. . )and I think Yi can be a way to explore this self-reflecting consciousness, it often throws back the question at us anyway.

At the same time (no pun intended), as much as a reading -especially when accompanied by an intuitive leap- can reveal the expanses of a moment that holds everything in it, I think it also hides in it the dangers of a 41.6 attitude, meaning that it can lead one into giving up the point of approaching the world as it stands, beyond refraction or reflection, in all its strangeness as primordial being . .

reading this thread again made me think that perhaps relative and absolute time are not that far away from each other, rather they are more like overlapping circles . . Asking Yi is -perhaps amongst other things- a way to capture the moment, but having done so, we need to let it go again
. . I don't see that as an uneatable fruit, it is exactly then, at the return to relative time that the fruit is eaten and the seed can take root . . .

or at least that's just how I understand it so far . .
 
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meng

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Predestination is only something which happened that we haven't caught up with yet. Something which is capable of scrolling backward should also be able to scroll forward. We,the observer, on the other hand, only see one time at a time - the present. That doesn't mean the rest of time doesn't exist simultaneously. :)
 
M

meng

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How does this sit with you for 23.6?

Your business is with action alone; not by any means with the fruit of action. ~ Krishna, Gita
 
M

maremaria

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Not clear in my mind yet, but this sounds like in 23.6 the only thing we can do is to provide the ground the fruit will fall. Its like performing a duty. Whether the fruit has a seed or not, is not in our control. In my mind in 23.6 there is a yes or no decision. Till now I though that decision maybe has to do with have to do with an expected result but from what I read , the result is not the issue here and the decision is do I perform my “duty” or not. ?

The other day I got an invitation. Asked Yi and got 23>8. One of the lines was 23.6. I thought what if I do it, what if I don’t and I find myself unable to predict the answers, so I just did it, without really expecting something. So it was something like”let it be”. Like the earth that accepts everything.
 

rodaki

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the monks sweeping away the strenuously made mandala are eating the fruit imo . . that is the highpoint of the work and the moment when it gets completed . .
they don't have to know how the grains of sand will influence the place they'll land with the information they carry from being a tiny fraction of the mandala pattern, but they sure know that they do carry it . . .
 

solun

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I think asymmetry is one part of the creative process - the tendency being toward individuation, which tendency leads us toward unification eventually, and on and on ...
asymmetry is to symmetry as imagination is to logic - or vice versa.
human logic is an abstraction of some greater (human or other) consciousness that could logically exist - and in experiencing that, we go out, beyond, within - direction is a question of the type of energy and a matter of perspective, orientation
 
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solun

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We can't see all things at once, but we surely know there is more, or other, and we are programmed for it, for change eventually
It is the quality of the force, the real motivation of it that concerns me. It says what our meaning is, our energy is, and probably determines the, at least longer-term destiny of that which constitutes us and the surrounding ...
 

pantherpanther

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I think asymmetry is one part of the creative process - the tendency being toward individuation, which tendency leads us toward unification eventually, and on and on ...
asymmetry is to symmetry as imagination is to logic - or vice versa.
human logic is an abstraction of some greater (human or other) consciousness that could logically exist - and in experiencing that, we go out, beyond, within - direction is a question of the type of energy and a matter of perspective, orientation

How to produce and contain the energy necessary to seek "individuation" except through facing and working with the ever-present resistance to it in myself?

“The No is to make the Yes remembered. No and Yes have to become more inseparable – one without the other is not profitable. … Yes without No – the angel without the devil – is impotence. … If it were not so it would not lead you to something. It would be romance – fallacious."
-Jane Heap
 

solun

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How to produce and contain the energy necessary to seek "individuation" except through facing and working with the ever-present resistance to it in myself? - pantherpanther

change is an occasion implicit in the time. the workings of our own soul or mind is a mystery in terms of what we choose. it's based on the past, but also on DNA and whatever 'energy or force' has set the soul in motion from the beginning to it's accorded purpose.
fatalism and free will are difficult to discuss. they are also dependent on the personality.
we go from physics to chemistry to the physics of chemistry and the chemistry of physics, the creation of matter, which came first , the chicken or the egg. god doesn't exist without his woman. and so on. they are not two. or they are. but they are to us, eternal.
I found an old name for god, it had seven sexes! or not! here on earth, ours has two generally. and the patterns of creation are generated between them as from the beginning, or wherever. we choose.
anyway, i am having trouble with my keyboard functions, they aren't working here so well for some reason.
 

pantherpanther

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change is an occasion implicit in the time. the workings of our own soul or mind is a mystery in terms of what we choose. it's based on the past, but also on DNA and whatever 'energy or force' has set the soul in motion from the beginning to it's accorded purpose.
fatalism and free will are difficult to discuss. they are also dependent on the personality.
we go from physics to chemistry to the physics of chemistry and the chemistry of physics, the creation of matter, which came first , the chicken or the egg. god doesn't exist without his woman. and so on. they are not two. or they are. but they are to us, eternal.
I found an old name for god, it had seven sexes! or not! here on earth, ours has two generally. and the patterns of creation are generated between them as from the beginning, or wherever. we choose.
anyway, i am having trouble with my keyboard functions, they aren't working here so well for some reason.

solun
I asked, How to produce and contain the energy necessary to seek "individuation" except through facing and working with the ever-present resistance to it in myself? -
This is a practical question. How to ? I wonder what you try? Did you understand my question?
 

solun

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yes, but you didn't understand my answer. so sorry. ):
I will summarize: Surrender.
Don't focus on your perceived resistance - it is a figment of unnecessary imaginings. If you focus on struggling, you are engaging in something that will only consume energy. Change happens at the appointed time.
cheers p :)

you could also ask the yi ching your question. Tell us what 'your' answer is, in shared readings maybe? that might be interesting. but I find the yi, the more we absorb some of it's wisdom, can becom part of our character, and we intuit well.
 
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fkegan

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How to produce and contain the energy necessary to seek "individuation" except through facing and working with the ever-present resistance to it in myself?

“The No is to make the Yes remembered. No and Yes have to become more inseparable – one without the other is not profitable. … Yes without No – the angel without the devil – is impotence. … If it were not so it would not lead you to something. It would be romance – fallacious."
-Jane Heap

Hi Panther,

Again you get your assumptions tied up with your pronouncements.
It is a very special notion to think that Yes and Negation or No are connected in any way. Both exist only in Aristotle based sophistry, such as cross-examination in court: Do you agree with my trick question or do you refuse to agree with it?

Negation is an expression of human fantasy (cf. Sartre Being and Nothingness). You have to have an abstract image in your mind in order to state that what you observe is not like your mental fantasy and thus negate the external observation as not being in tune with your favored fantasy.

Interesting expression of your religious/political ideology in the quote you cite to Jane Heap. Without an attached Devil there is mere useless [sic] romance? :eek:

Frank
 

pantherpanther

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yes, but you didn't understand my answer. so sorry. ):
I will summarize: Surrender.
Don't focus on your perceived resistance - it is a figment of unnecessary imaginings. If you focus on struggling, you are engaging in something that will only consume energy. Change happens at the appointed time.
cheers p :)

you could also ask the yi ching your question. Tell us what 'your' answer is, in shared readings maybe? that might be interesting. but I find the yi, the more we absorb some of it's wisdom, can becom part of our character, and we intuit well.

solun ,
My question was what do you try - your discipline or practise - not what you think or believe.

You wrote, "We can't see all things at once, but we surely know there is more, or other, and we are programmed for it, for change eventually
It is the quality of the force, the real motivation of it that concerns me. It says what our meaning is, our energy is, and probably determines the, at least longer-term destiny of that which constitutes us and the surrounding ...
"

We become what we pay for: no pain, no gain. No change. Efforts are rewarded according to their quality and persistence.
 

fkegan

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We become what we pay for: no pain, no gain. No change. Efforts are rewarded according to their quality and persistence.

Hi Panther,
What an intriguing corollary to the great spiritual principle, "there is no free lunch" or if you sweat enough you must be worthy of pennies in heaven.
Or turning back a question about what is really happening within you with a demand for the description of the work being done without explaining why you assume only some sort of work is acceptable spiritual effort. Lighten up a bit. If you are unwilling to explain yourself don't expect anyone else to accede to your demands that could only make sense in your terms and to you.

Frank
 

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