Hi,

I've lost a friendship - but maybe it was never good for me anyway. Everyone says/said stay away, but, despite the pain I feel at his apparent disregard now, it was a beneficial meeting for me and we did become close, well close for me anyway, and have good exchanges. But maybe they only went so far and I just need to know when to say when - or leave things in the past. (I find it hard to move on, especially when it comes to estranged frienships which I feel mainly occured because of my insecurity or neediness).

I asked, should I say, simply, that I regret losing this person as a friend? (email that I admit I was the one who ultimately pushed for this outcome)
22.1,4 > 56

22.1 Seems to say a simple, sincere gesture of honesty would be good (this is how I feel - but I have also learnt feelings are not to be trusted - as they seem to blind you from the truth to protect your ego - by trying to make you believe the best? Especially where rejection is concerned...)
22.4 suggests I should trust him? Even when that seems unrealistic given the situation?
56 - Is this the overriding answer? That this is not an appropriate emotional dwelling place for me i.e. I should move on from the idea of making one last attempt at contact?

It's annoying - depsite feeling hurt, I don't feel angry - but this person might think it pathetic of me to be friendly now. But, it is rare that you find people you connect with, and so shouldn't they be fought for? But then again, if he really is hardened, then I should just keep the good feeling in the past - appreciate what I did take from it - and give in to its lack of duration? And let his presence in my life (or should that be head/heart) fully decay?

I wrote the message and asked once more - send yes or no?
41.2,3 > 22

I think I understand from this that I shouldn't. That I would be being servile and throwing myself away 41.2 - 'which would bring no benefit to the other' i.e. by being weak and not holding my own (the last message I sent was indignant because he'd spoken to me harshly... but I walked into it - he had said wanted space, I thought that meant he was fobbing me off, so I cut him off, then regreted that and contacted him - messed him around generally - so he was harsh with me. Fool that I am. And this probably was all completely irrational to him - as he didn't know I had feelings for him - though he's probably guesssed now...)
41.3> I need to really let him go, so that another might come along? Maybe he has someone else who is close to and so I am not needed - If I fill that sort of personal role, rather than a normal friendship.
22 > again! Isthe basis of this hex's meaning - in relation to communicating with someone - about not trying to show off - or being light and having joyous exchanges rather than uncomfortable ones? And so, I should not probe this. Perhaps it's saying that he instinctively knows I want his friendship - and so, telling him again, is pointless? Because he Doesn't care?

It's funny - I got 22 before when asking about contacting him - to appeal to him - and express my regret for turning him into an enemy. But I think this all comes, from it not being possible to be friends with someone you have strong feelings for... Perhaps, if I didn't - I would have felt he was simply not a good friend and thus would have moved on a while ago. But, my pesky heart won't let it let go.. especially as I feel it was my fault. But maybe that's my low self-esteem talking?
Thing is - would he feel the least bit happy, if I did admit my mistake? If he wanted to be friends, surely, he would have been less, dismissive... but maybe he feels I did him wrong too?

Thanks very much for reading - I'd really appreciate simple pointers.. Get it out of my system, or swallow the negative outcome and try and forget it? I just still have good intentions towards him, but they probably mean nothing to him now. Yuk. Can't dictate my relationships with some people very well at all.

:bows:

hi em

well, you shouldn't be trying to dictate relationships at all . . or at least that's how I see it . .

what I get from your reading on a quick note is that you might feel lost, alienated or left out but you don't need someone else to carry forth your sense of self-value for you, you can stand on your own feet and walk your walk (22.1). This will help you look at things at your own pace and recognize what you bring on the table clear and simple.
In other words, knowing your self-worth is what you need to go on your way steady and strong even when things feel awkward and strange

wish you well . .

Thank you.
Yes - I know, my behaviour towards him, would make it seem like I lack self-worth. But wouldn't expressing how I feel - be giving worth to how I feel? Or, is my 'need' of him - merely a symptom of my low self-worth? And that is what I need to be aware of - that it is not necessary and/or important to try and rectify this relationship? Because even though, it is other people that make you happy, in this case, he has not treated me well and so I should act with grace and dignity and walk on my own - despite my sense of the loss of a valuable connection? And blaming myself for the estrangement and being sorry, is only making things worse - in regards both to myself (through diminishing myself and my hurt, and so confirming to him that I am not worth being treated that well) and the relationship (as reflected in 41.2)?

mmm . . i dunno em, we deem connections valuable for all sorts of reasons. Very often the valuable connections are those that help us see and reflect on who we are and how we relate . . I think you need to ask yourself whether you want to patch things and make up just to see yourself in a good light again or because an inner sense of fairness urges you to admit your mistakes and rectify what went awry . .

me thinks 22 calls for lucidity and self-cultivation . . then you can see things better to their own ends . .

rodaki said:

I think you need to ask yourself whether you want to patch things and make up just to see yourself in a good light again or because an inner sense of fairness urges you to admit your mistakes and rectify what went awry . .

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That is exactly my conflict It's just, whether he cares or not... I could not say at all...

reading throught the readings em my impression is you could really lighten up about this, it probabaly really just isn't as serious as you feel it. I saw the 22>56 as something you could probably let go...you might send an email if you like it probably won't make much difference to anything. The 56 makes me think maybe this connnection was meant to be temporary. I don't think we easily lose really strong connections, alienation between 2 people is generally not one sided.

You are choosing to see, not only here but elsewhere, in other readigns over the years, that you are the one who does something wrong to drive the other away. This is a story you torture yourself with seems to me. I don't really see this here.

the 41>22 seems to me to ask you again to lighten up (22) decrease passions (41) if you want to send the email you could i don't think it will have a huge impact on you either way.

After that i think you should go and buy something pretty or sensuous or fun..and stop giving yourself a hard time...oops hope that dosn't sound too trivialising...but maybe a bit of trivialising is what you need eh...

Great input from Dora, imo.

you can stand on your own feet and walk your walk (22.1). This will help you look at things at your own pace and recognize what you bring on the table clear and simple.

Click to expand...

:bows:

Em, people need room to feel free to come to you on their terms, not when you want them to. You have to stand on your own, and then others will come to you.

em ching said:

That is exactly my conflict It's just, whether he cares or not... I could not say at all...

Click to expand...

ok, take a long hard look at this . . is this what this is all about? what does he make of you? -or what do you make of yourself?


hmm, I don't mean to sound harsh, but this reading is about you and the best way to gain insight on your actions . . brace up yourself and don't be timid in exploring areas of you that might seem unknown or dangerous . .

that's just my point of view of course . . at the end of the day it's up to you to decide

trojan said:

alienation between 2 people is generally not one sided.

You are choosing to see, not only here but elsewhere, in other readigns over the years, that you are the one who does something wrong to drive the other away. This is a story you torture yourself with seems to me. I don't really see this here.

the 41>22 seems to me to ask you again to lighten up (22) decrease passions (41) if you want to send the email you could i don't think it will have a huge impact on you either way.

After that i think you should go and buy something pretty or sensuous or fun..and stop giving yourself a hard time...oops hope that dosn't sound too trivialising...but maybe a bit of trivialising is what you need eh...

Click to expand...

Thanks Trojan
Yes - maybe it was only meant to last as long as it did. Can't help but feel that I blew it by wanting too much - and so there could still be a connection - which is why I feel compelled to apologise.. but I guess I already have and, as you say, it didn't make much difference then so why should it now? If his sentiments had changed, I'd hear from him right? Unless I've made it too frought and convoluted/ pressured for him ever to consider me again...

alienation between 2 people is generally not one sided.

Yes perhaps if I saw him face to face - I'd see that. And say to myself 'Oh I see I get it, we really are on different levels now...'

I suppose I'm taking it so seriously, because no one else is taking up that space he once filled and I have few friends around me for distraction at the mo

Thanks Trojan - afraid it's work work work at the mo for me so no time for shopping but I take your point - I like that aspect of 22

:bows:

meng said:

Em, people need room to feel free to come to you on their terms, not when you want them to. You have to stand on your own, and then others will come to you.

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Thanks - yes I Definitely see that now. I wish I'd backed off from him when I sensed I should have - but I guess it's too late now, for some sort of reconcilliation. As I have said before, I've made a mistake here based on my insecurities - I've learnt a lesson (not to act on those negative assumptions) but in the process, a potential friend has been sacrificed. But then as Trojan says, perhaps he wasn't one or at least, isn't one anymore.. people change etc..

I don't know. I feel compelled to message him one last time - even if deep down I know it's pointless - but when I come to write and almost send, I'm paralysed. I think the fire that pushed me forward before - the 'love' I felt for him - is on it's last legs - so I can't really do anything except bear with the pain, I suppose.. they say you regret what you didn't do, but that isn't always the case (as I have learnt). I don't know eh.. perhaps I still need more time before I can be sure about the right course to take, but by then it may be too late and/or the fire to ashes anyway...

:bows:

rodaki said:

ok, take a long hard look at this . . is this what this is all about? what does he make of you? -or what do you make of yourself?

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Yes - maybe it is the fact that I know I've made a mistake, but a kind word from him, would make me feel better about myself. And him treating me with worth, would make me believe I have it. Whereas I should feel it, without external validation I suppose It's just the loss I feel, of someone who inspired me, but if that's how I see him, then I suppose it wasn't really an equal relationship (not that I idolized him to his face or anything.. )

:bows:

Ok, I asked:

If I do nothing, What will happen?
46.1,3,6 > 41

The restraint will strengthen me? That even though it looks like I'm going forward into a life all the more dark because of this loss, I should be brave and not act impulsively? (line 6)
line 1 : that I must rise on my own - as a root from a 'low and obscure station'
line 3 : and follow the road of least resistance - the one that isn't obstructed i.e the one that leaves him be?
41 is about reigning in the emotions of course... so it seems that's what I need to conquer?
But then again, 46.6 does talk of 'deluding' oneself... so am I deluding myself that I can walk away and leave this as it is?

So then I asked, What will happen if I explain/apologise?
41.6 > 19

Seems to speak of doing something for the good of all - would that be leaving him alone or contacting him? Ah, perhaps it is saying that I should not - because in this line by 'increasing others we decrease ourselves' which is good but not if increasing 'family interests'... but then again, it seems to be saying I should give... but maybe I'm trying to give to the wrong person, because I have personal interest in him, which is thus, Not increasing others... just a vain hope to increase myself?
And 19 could be reflecting that some relationships serve their time sooner than others - blossom then decay - and I must give in to this and not get over emotional about it?? (hex 41)

em ching said:

Yes - maybe it is the fact that I know I've made a mistake, but a kind word from him, would make me feel better about myself. And him treating me with worth, would make me believe I have it.
:bows:

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I doubt a bit about that. There will be a part of you unsatisfied, even things go as you wish and hear those kinds words from him. You deeply believe that you don’t worth and you seek around to affirm it. I believe that although you are feeling sad about your loss, there is a part of you that says “told you! you don’t worth!!!!” and that makes you feel good.

You have to choose, Em, which master you want to serve. When will be the time to make that choice is something you have to decide, but you have to choose.

Perhaps, I don't have the right to talk you like that but I feel that I had to tell you.

Em,

Evidently, it isn't whether or not you contact him, but which part of you will be running things. Will it be the passionate need for his attention, or your wise oversight and self control?

Thanks maremaria.
Problem is, I feel like there's more I could do - that I haven't tried hard enough. But objectively I know that isn't really true. But maybe he has misunderstood me. But he has made me feel worthless, but I think only because I had such strong feelings - and secret - expectations of him along with that I suppsose. Otherwise I guess I'd have just left it as any other friend you might no longer speak to for whatever reason. I do see what you're saying - that I have pushed for this outcome - looked for (and unfortunately received) confirmation of my negative self belief.

Meng - you hit the nail on the head. I do have a passionate need for his attention - even if it's negative and unfulfilling. And, as he's not so enamoured with me, it would never be enough. He can't give it. I just feel sad, and that much more lonely without him. But that is my problem. And perhaps delusion. It's just hard to know whether there is more for me to do, on a basic level of admission of my part to play in the fall out. But then if he really doesn't want to play at all anyway - then it would just be worse to attempt anything... I know, I must exercise self control and admit to myself - it won't get better..

:bows:

em ching said:

Ok, I asked:

If I do nothing, What will happen?
46.1,3,6 > 41


So then I asked, What will happen if I explain/apologise?
41.6 > 19

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hello again!


46.1,3,6>41 . . this looks like you will be pushing upwards, at times with confidence, at times with apprehension . . being mindful of your own strength and gentle with your efforts . . leaving on your way some things behind . . extra baggage will have to be dropped (could be the specific person or the need that weighs you down, or you know better what lies heavy on you . .). 46 always gave me the impression of some slow and strenuous work that makes you stronger . . not rosy, but rewarding

41.6>19 . . seems to me like you can find a way to make contact but this can prosper provided you acknowledge and honor both your rights and wrongs (emphasis on rights because you seem to focus mostly on offering apologies rather than setting the record straight

both ways include 41, so there is a question of what you want to give, in order to make progress without selling yourself short . .
i don't think there is an issue of right or wrong here, but maybe there is one of which way you want to try . . what you feel it's time to do . . either tentatively give one more chance or focus on how to let go . . both look challenging, for different reasons -the rest is up to you.

I hope this can be of some help here dear Em . . all my best to you in this!

Dora

Thanks Dora.
Still feel the urge to do it - but there's a big voice that says 'futile!' also, it is hard to write when I think he doesn't want to hear any more from me, and to send a message that points out his as well as my wrongs is hard... while also trying to keep it very short don't know how far to go in either direction. But the main message I want to get across is that I am glad to have known him, and realise that I was the one who probed things because I was off on my own agenda, and ruined whatever there was there.

Can't get my head around 41.6 either -

Lise's interpretation: Above 9: Not diminishing, increasing it. Without fault. Determination auspicious. Harvest: proceeding probing. Acquiring servants, without family.
A soul in which diminishing and augmenting do not exist, has no ego. He can find his road simply by walking it. He will find servants without offering them a place to live because being close to a soul like this has more value than anything else. He needs no home, he is a home.

That's pretty funny he's used the word probing... It's the 'Aquiring servants without family' bit that I don't get...

Has anyone had any experience with this line?

Nigel Richmond says: 'Accepting the inner meaning of failure of expectation' but also to be 'part of the life force' to 'find a following'...

My life force seems to want to get this out, admit my mistake - but that could be my lack of sense in the emotional realm especially if he would rather not hear any more about it... I don't even particulary want his attention now - I'm pretty much resigned to it being over, but I just want to acknowledge why it happened and that I am sorry.. but also not to be subservient because he is no angel.

If anyone has any clearer knowledge of this line it'd be great to hear
Thanks

rodaki said:

46.1,3,6>41 . . this looks like you will be pushing upwards, at times with confidence, at times with apprehension . . being mindful of your own strength and gentle with your efforts . . leaving on your way some things behind . . extra baggage will have to be dropped (could be the specific person or the need that weighs you down, or you know better what lies heavy on you . .). 46 always gave me the impression of some slow and strenuous work that makes you stronger . . not rosy, but rewarding

41.6>19 . . emphasis on rights because you seem to focus mostly on offering apologies rather than setting the record straight

Dora

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Maybe the 46 - 41 is saying how sacrificing this desire, will in turn make me stronger. But I can't help but also see it as a lonely road...
But then as you say about 41.6 - it's about setting the record straight, which is now all I want to do... but without making a fool of myself - and it could only be foolish, if he really doesn't care now...

Maybe the Graceful thing to do, given that I'm so frought with this, is still nothing. Give in to it being a time of Decrease, and try and be strong and maintain faith and Push Upward... But then, is there unfinished business here? That is what I don't know. And whether it matters or not, to both..

em ching said:

Can't get my head around 41.6 either -

Lise's interpretation: Above 9: Not diminishing, increasing it. Without fault. Determination auspicious. Harvest: proceeding probing. Acquiring servants, without family.
A soul in which diminishing and augmenting do not exist, has no ego. He can find his road simply by walking it. He will find servants without offering them a place to live because being close to a soul like this has more value than anything else. He needs no home, he is a home.

That's pretty funny he's used the word probing... It's the 'Aquiring servants without family' bit that I don't get...

Has anyone had any experience with this line?

Nigel Richmond says: 'Accepting the inner meaning of failure of expectation' but also to be 'part of the life force' to 'find a following'...

My life force seems to want to get this out, admit my mistake - but that could be my lack of sense in the emotional realm especially if he would rather not hear any more about it... I don't even particulary want his attention now - I'm pretty much resigned to it being over, but I just want to acknowledge why it happened and that I am sorry.. but also not to be subservient because he is no angel.

If anyone has any clearer knowledge of this line it'd be great to hear
Thanks

Click to expand...

Okay re 41.6 This line puzzled me for a while also. I now feel i understand it better but it is incredibly difficult to put the sense of it into words because i think it has a really intangible feel to it. I think the idea one has no home because one becomes ones own home as Lise said is very resonant..not always easy to apply to your reading....but to me its like for example being a traveller with no home, nothing to your name yet wherever you go you find a friend, a helper, what you need at that particular time. This gives you more freedom and security than you can ever imagine and yet paradoxically one has no visible tangible or permanent base of security.


I think its very much around times where you look at your life and think 'hell i have nothing, i decreased so much i have nothing, i have no real base, no close connections, no money" in the eyes of the world you might look like you are in a sorry state but actually you aren't at all. Your needs are met as they arise, i think this is what the "aquiring servants, without family" 'finding many friends' is about ..where you travel you find the support you need. I say travel because there is a sense of travel with this line., though not necessarily physical travel, just transitional states. Hilary says 41.6 isn't about a final arrival somewhere..its about movement, finding what you need as you go. I like this line theres much freedom in it


Hmm imagine how free you would be on an inner level if you truly understood you did not need any one particular person or set of set of circumstances to be happy..that your happiness is not bound to this man or your apologising or not apologising..hmm but your question was 'what if i apologise'..well are you asking how he will react ? I think the answer goes beyond your question. if you truly feel you did a bad thing to him then of course apologise, infact if you really owed him an apology i don't think you'd have any hesitation about doing it..what you are really asking is how you might impact on him...this doesn't really have anything to do with a true need to aplogise for doing something harmful. I think I'm just repeating what someone else said earlier actually.


Hmm anyway you ask 'if i do nothing what will happen 46>41. To me this 46.6 particulary speaks of maintaining trust even when you can't see where you are going. I think if you do nothing you will need to develop a bit of trust and faith in the way things work out...you can't control how people feel about you, you can't always hold on to them when you want to, you have to have some faith that if an affinity exists between you it will remain.

So actually i still think what i thought about 20 posts ago..this isn't about you apologising or not apologising. You will know surely if you did such a bad thing you must apologise...but how can you really apologise just for being who you are, a little needy, you didn't try to hurt him or cause him pain did you. If you want to let him know how much you valued the relationship there can be no harm in that..how that will impact on the relationship who knows. i think your job is getting to really understand your well being doesn't rest with him, making yourself the one in the wrong all the time doesn't help..you have to see this is a pattern by now Em..? if you look back at all the threads where you berate yourself for not living up to others expectations you'll see a clear pattern going on there. LOL well I guess we all have those !

trojan said:

Okay re 41.6 I think the idea one has no home because one becomes ones own home as Lise said is very resonant..not always easy to apply to your reading....but to me its like for example being a traveller with no home, nothing to your name yet wherever you go you find a friend, a helper, what you need at that particular time. This gives you more freedom and security than you can ever imagine and yet paradoxically one has no visible tangible or permanent base of security.


I think its very much around times where you look at your life and think 'hell i have nothing, i decreased so much i have nothing, i have no real base, no close connections, no money" in the eyes of the world you might look like you are in a sorry state but actually you aren't at all. Your needs are met as they arise, i think this is what the "aquiring servants, without family" 'finding many friends' is about ..where you travel you find the support you need. I say travel because there is a sense of travel with this line., though not necessarily physical travel, just transitional states. Hilary says 41.6 isn't about a final arrival somewhere..its about movement, finding what you need as you go. I like this line theres much freedom in it


Hmm imagine how free you would be on an inner level if you truly understood you did not need any one particular person or set of set of circumstances to be happy..that your happiness is not bound to this man or your apologising or not apologising..hmm but your question was 'what if i apologise'..well are you asking how he will react ? I think the answer goes beyond your question. if you truly feel you did a bad thing to him then of course apologise, infact if you really owed him an apology i don't think you'd have any hesitation about doing it..what you are really asking is how you might impact on him...this doesn't really have anything to do with a true need to aplogise for doing something harmful. I think I'm just repeating what someone else said earlier actually.


Hmm anyway you ask 'if i do nothing what will happen 46>41. To me this 46.6 particulary speaks of maintaining trust even when you can't see where you are going. I think if you do nothing you will need to develop a bit of trust and faith in the way things work out...you can't control how people feel about you, you can't always hold on to them when you want to, you have to have some faith that if an affinity exists between you it will remain.

So actually i still think what i thought about 20 posts ago..this isn't about you apologising or not apologising. You will know surely if you did such a bad thing you must apologise...but how can you really apologise just for being who you are, a little needy, you didn't try to hurt him or cause him pain did you. If you want to let him know how much you valued the relationship there can be no harm in that..how that will impact on the relationship who knows. i think your job is getting to really understand your well being doesn't rest with him, making yourself the one in the wrong all the time doesn't help..you have to see this is a pattern by now Em..? if you look back at all the threads where you berate yourself for not living up to others expectations you'll see a clear pattern going on there. LOL well I guess we all have those !

Click to expand...

Lol yes we do. Old habits die hard. Thanks for your response Trojan.
I have not emailed him. I don't know if I meant enough to him to have hurt him - and I already have apologised (a while ago, but also said how he'd hurt me - when I now realise I hurt myself with my (irrational) expectations of him as I had feelings for him, to which he was probably oblivious as we were only friends (so I am more to blame than him). But, I obviously wasn't a valued friend. So I can't help but think he'd scoff at an apology, now. Even if I did admit that I was the one who instigated the estrangement by not leaving him alone...

Was thinking maybe 41.6 is about how you have to be together in yourself ('a home') before you can give unconditionally. I think I've, as you said, been so deferential towards people that I have little of myself left, which is why apologising further now - either to scorn or being ignored - could be detrimental to me again. Maybe I need to be stronger in myself before I can attempt anything again - and maybe by then, I'll see him for what he is, rather than my current (but definifely waning) romantic projection.

A couple of days ago I felt that I was on the peak of the wave where I was ready to give it one more go - but I held firm, curbed acting on emotion and my desire for his attention at the expense of my dignity (perhaps by now as he has made no attempt to mend the break) - and now I feel like the moment has passed. I think it's the right course - and hex 46 does suggest it is in the long run even if it means I never have closure on this relationship?...

I found your past thread on 41 and this is useful to consider:

41.2 is about figuring out how much you have to give to another, how much you have to get involved. In my experience its often a message to pull back, stop trying to fix things for someone, definately stop feeling you 'owe' them, be clear about your boundaries, less is more here. In general 41 is about reducing involvement, reducing strong emotions and attachments.

41.6 whew theres a whole thread on 41.6 somewhere if you look in the hexagram index, i think i started it. Hmmm well I think Hilary says view the situation as part of the journey, its not your destination, its not 'home'. Its still good but its not an arrival in itself just a stage in the journey. Others say many different things about it, I find Hilarys ideas on it quite apt.

... its like diminish too much giving, too much passion in the relationship...and of course it may be you are subject to that, that is maybe the other party rethinks how much energy they wish to put in to this too...yet at the same time relax a little here. i find 41.6 somehow to me also means relaxing an attitude to 'getting' cos you can't really lose here...which i suppose is another way of saying reduce emotional intensity over acquiring what you or s/he needs from this and return to your core values (24) to yourself, which is home.

In short then avoid over extending self for others, move away from intensity, be open also and relaxed in being open to new possibilites that help you along (41.6) without getting too attached to them

Hmm. Oh well. I guess this can be a typical feeling in break-ups - you can't believe the other doesn't feel the same way (even if we weren't in a relationship). I guess you can't stay friends with someone you have feelings for, unless you ride them out in silence, or the interest is mutual (obviously).
I asked, back when I first had an inkling I had gotten in too deep with him again (and then he left town) what will become of this? Hex 28 - 1.

I think I'm (painfully) entering the 1 phase now. I read somewhere that hex 28 is about how you can't delay the inevitable. I felt under so much pressure to have him in my life and when that couldn't happen as I'd like - the ridgepole (our 'friendship') broke. But I'm also aware that I could have played it in a different way (sacrificed my emotions and held back) and I guess there wouldn't have been the fallout, but then I don't suppose there would have been anything else either..

Ah well, you win some...

Thanks all

:bows: