Well,
the title says it all

Though, with all the metaphors in the text I have really hard time understanding the answer.

All the things that I was relying my entire adult life are gone...I have nothing to lean upon...
Nothing interests me..I was in therapy for a year, it was marginally helpfull...I can't work, pennyless and mostly importnantly have little moral support.

Is that what i ching is saying? What else is there?

Specifically line 5: either court ladies, or fish??? What is the idea???

Thanks a lot!

Dear ichinglover,

remember you are never alone.

the reason for your depression....it would be hard to say from this reading. You would be the one to know. Is it situational? when everything you've relied on has been stripped away, when you are penniless and can't work...well, it would be rather unnatural to not be depressed. sometimes 23 describes that kind of a situation: a time when life as you've known it disintegrates, and though it is a time that is uncomfortable and unpleasant, it is part of the natural processes of life. There may be a need to drop resistance, and go with this flow. even though the river may feel dried up and lifeless, there can be a harmony found in acceptance. For now. It won't be forever.

on the other hand, depression can also be clinical...and then depression itself can render you unable to act, unable to see any solutions .

Therapy may have only been marginally helpful, but it might be worthwhile to find someone else to talk to. NOt all therapists are competent for all situations. Rather than a pragmatic problem-solving approach, it would seem right now you need to put the situation in context and just be able to express all your feelings. You might also consider just seeing a regular doctor to see if there might be any physical causes for depression....there could also be therapists who could act as "lantern-holders"...helping you take baby steps to move through this time and onto more satisfying turf. To me this resonates with line 5.

and of course, 23 is a time to take good care of yourself. take some walks, get good nutrition, some massages (if that is possible- there are sometimes clinics where you can get massage at discount rates)

Overall, I feel it is hard to interpret your reading without more info. BUt generally, line 5 is a hopeful one. a time when the tide can begin to turn. For myself, I would say to try to relax, come into harmony with the changes taking place without reservations or too many expectations, and let this time lead you ....as it will.

Take heart, this too shall pass.

Hi IChinglover
Having extreme depression is a very difficult situation, especially when it feels like all that you have leaned upon throughout your adult life has gone. It's good that you have been in therapy and found it marginally helpful,and now you are still faced with your reality of being penniless, unable to work and feeling unsupported.

It's no wonder you are having hard times understanding the answer.

You do not state exactly what your question was but whatever it was it's not clear to me that the Iching is reflecting "What else is there?".
Here's one possible view for you to consider

23 - Stripping: where the inferior dark forces have overcome what is superior and strong, not by direct means, but by undermining it gradually and imperceptibly, so that it finally collapses. The advice is to find your peace by being forgiving to the inferior elements that have brought you to this situation

23.2 - When you are walking the road of isolation it's only heading in one direction. To purposefully change direction is the way to avoid all the serious pitfalls. Break out of the spiral .
[FONT=&quot]23.4 - This is the line of choices. In some ways depression can be a hiding place and when you've reached the bottom there is no place left to hide, the only place to reach for is within yourself. Choose to reach for your power. [/FONT]
23.5 - The darkest hour is just before the dawn. Just when you think things are never going to change....they do. You start to see the light at the end of the tunnel and things begin, slowly at first, to pick up.

Hex 6 Seems to be pointing towards your current situation.
So if your question was something like "What is the reason for extreme depression?" it's answer is something like "it's a way of stripping away the conflict that exists within"

At times like this it can be difficult to remember you are not alone. It's important to recognise that there are plenty of organisations out there to support people in your type of situation.
May you find the strength that you have been searching for.
Be Well
Mike

PS - I've just seen bamboo's excellent post. SOme real good hints on how to break out of the spiral. And here's a hug from me too.

Mike, Bamboo thanks a lot..
Yes my queswtrion was "Why am i in this state?"

Could be you have been quarrelsome because you were frustrated and troubled? Hexagram 6 sometimes indicates a person who has become quarrelsome.

I once lost a seven-year relationship by raising my voice to a guy who just couldn't stand a woman's voice when she was in an angry frame of mind . . . He left that Saturday, his friends helping him carry his things down the stairs.

I was never so alone, after that. I felt utterly abandoned. I didn't have the I Ching in those days nor a spiritual perspective, either. A human being can never in fact be completely alone, Ichinglover. We are surrounded at all times by beneficent forces attempting to help us, if we'll let them . . .

I think the best thing for you is not to sink into total inactivity, but make sure you get outside and walk a lot every day in the sunlight. Nature is a wonderful tonic for the bruised part, the part that got hurt. Physical activity is very good for when people are depressed.

You must miss the friends you used to have, Ichinglover . . .

If they belong to you, they'll come back. If they don't belong to you, you will make new friends. In the time of Stripping Away, just wait -- and take really good care of yourself. This time will pass

23.2.4.5 - A reason for extreme depression

Line 23.2 indicates that you are alone and without any proper support from anyone, this in itself is very depressing, but the line advises that you learn to adjust, not easy but completely within the realms of possibility.

Line 23.4 indicates that you are now in the deep end so to speak, so its the darkest before the sun rises.

Line 23.5 indicates that your depressive state will ease up in the coming months as you will find some guidance and help to lead you out of your dark valley, so look to the person who will come carrying a torch.

Hex 6 Your own mind is creating your depressive state, therefore you will need to find a person who can help you find that relieve that you are looking for. As line 23.5 says, there is help available, you just need to find that special one.

23 and depression

Dear Ichinglover,

I was once in a similar situation and got also Hex 23. It reflects your state of mind and I know its horribile to be depressive.
Line 5 indicates that at the end you will overcome it. Now its hard to believe that you ever will enjoy life, but I can say, you will do so as I've done.
Homoeopathy was very helpfully to me.

A big hug

I find the Bach Flower Remedies a big help in times of trouble.

For depression, the best thing is really to get the body moving, best to get out every day in the sunlight. If there's a park or a river nearby, just get yourself there, or sit on a park bench and watch the leaves on the trees turning colors. Nothing like nature for a depression

Just in case the commebt could be useful

For depression (not simple sadness), the best thing is professional care; better if you mix emotional work with medical treatment.

In health questions, 23 usually points to unnoticed illness. A full set of medical test is in order, then.

Best wishes

ichinglover said:

Nothing interests me..I was in therapy for a year, it was marginally helpful...I can't work, penniless and mostly importantly have little moral support.

Click to expand...

I believe clinical depression requires some strong medication, I really can't see a few flowers having any effect but that's my personal opinion.

This person is on a heavy down which requires some real help from a "professional", so nothing like proper help for depression either.

I do believe alternative medicine can be helpful ( I have seen it work in several cases of depression); as complement. But not INSTEAD of clinical care.

willowfox said:

I believe clinical depression requires some strong medication, I really can't see a few flowers having any effect but that's my personal opinion.

Click to expand...

Are you a psychologist or why can you diagnose a querent with clinical depression and decide what is the right medication?

jesed said:

I do believe alternative medicine can be helpful ( I have seen it work in several cases of depression); as complement. But not INSTEAD of clinical care.

Click to expand...

I was helped by a very good homoepath - without any orthodox medication or clinical care.

Hi parasio

No doubt. At least in Mexico, Homeopathy IS real clinical care.

Best

jesed said:

Hi parasio

No doubt. At least in Mexico, Homeopathy IS real clinical care.

Best

Click to expand...

Thanks.

To be fair, WF didn't actually diagnose or prescribe anything, just cast doubt on the efficacity of Bach Flower Remedies. She even said that was (just) her opinion.

Ichinglover -
Have you tried asking Yi for advice on how to respond or what to do?

Thank you to everyone

It's quite comforting to read your posts and ideas, and to get the hugs

Just to give a better perspective, my depression is kinda long-term, how several years now, and at some point I did resort to SSRIs, not sure it that worked well, but I had very strong side effects, and then I eventually stopped taking them which was a nightmare on its own. I've never taken any recreational drugs in my life, but this process of stopping SSRI felt as if I was an old time drug abuser who decided to quit cold turkey.
I'm quite a reasonable person, and actually come from a family of doctors, so normally I'm not against drugs, but now my body ( and spirit ) objects to this group of drugs quite strongly, from my experience I can say I can't tolerate them well. Then I also tried St.John Wort and similar things. It seem to have a short-term effect, but not as as strong as SSRI. On the other hand, I'm constantly dissatisfied with myself and circumstances of my life, which I think may cause depression. I did try to cover my feelings with SSRIs, but now I think it's just a diversion, not a real cure.

Now I'm experimenting with I ching to learn more about the true reasons of my dissatisfactrions, as I think this is the reason for my depression. I've been thru routine medical tests, I don't seem to have anything to suggest a medical reason for depression ( like thyroid problems or such), or at least nothing was found.
Or may be I'm just wired that way, more prone to depression?

I was thru the relapses before, and normally they are triggered by some stressful event, moving to the foreign country for instance, loosing the job, romantic problems...I guess it's relatively normal, but in my case I can't snap out of it quickly, it takes me months, and now years...And now it seems more like a existential crises, or a mid-life crisis type of thing

I can't function at all...

What type of questions can I ask I ching to gain a better perspective on problems?

And sorry for the whining...

A good question to ask the I Ching just to get your mind off your troubles and to see life differently: "Show me a hexagram I can see acted out in the world today." You're not asking for any major life prediction, just a little tip on what mini-theatrical you might notice if you were to watch for it.

rosada

Hi Ichinglover,

Personally, I'd like to say there's a possibility that you've gotten discouraged and disgusted, because this depression is quite intractable.

Go about your life anyway.

whatever your current state, the truth is that there is a way through to a life lived with purpose and satisfaction. I am not sure how I feel about meds, but i know people who do very well on anti-depressants, sometimes having had to find the right fit.

there is an interesting book by Debbie Ford, called the 21 Day Consciousness Cleanse. Ford is an excellent guide thru the darkness, having been in great darkness herself.
Dont abandon yourself. Love yourself enough to show up for what needs to be done, the right actions will prsent themselves if you just believe in yourself enough not to give up and take baby steps.

If you found a little girl feeling lost and confused and hopeless on the side of the road, wouldnt you take her in to your heart and help her? You are that little girl, and you are also the adult who is going to commit to helping her. When depressed, everything sounds like a major effort with energy you dont have, but really all you have to do is show up for yourself. say a little prayer every morning for direction and guidance. It will come.

What type of questions can I ask I ching to gain a better perspective on problems?

Click to expand...

One of my favourites is 'Help!?'

It looks as if you've assumed you need to understand the cause of the depression to get anywhere. That sounds sensible, and maybe you're right; maybe you need to go further in to find the way out. Or maybe that isn't so.

So... I'm thinking that you could just ask for advice, with the simplest question you can imagine - something like, 'What can I do?'

By the way - you are not whining.

New Question

I'd like to thank everyone for your efforts and sympathy

This is quite therapeuthic on its own.

In the midst of my depression I have to move countries, truly have to, I got this GC so
it is mandatory for me to move to the US, and I can't do it....Risking the green card...


And I'm not sure why. May be fear of change? Don't really know why, but my whole being is against it...After all i moved so many times...And I have no energy for another move

I asked Yi what is this time for me? it said 28, amen....Truly, too many things are happening at once and I can't take it

So I asked the question :

"why am I so against this move to the US"

Got

59.1.3

It talks about some sort of self-sacrifice, meaning I feel that I'm sacrifying myself for something/someone else???I'm not planning to do that...

How else can I read these lines?

As usual, any help is highly appreciated

Hi ichinglover
please check your PM inbox

Dear Willowfox,
I do enjoy reading your straight-to-the-point, right-on -the -money type of interpretions, and I suspect I'm not the only one...
What do you think of 59.1.3. - in my previous post, I'm anxious to hear your opinion...
Please?

H59, Dispersal, represents both the knotted up feelings of depression and the ways to dissolve them.

The thing is, do you know what's really bothering you? Is it that you are holding a grudge against someone? Holding onto a grudge (or any other negative emotional state) weakens a person tremendously.

In 59.1: To effect a rescue, it bodes well if the horse is strong. Who is the horse in your case, the strong rescuer? The strong rescuer may be the green card? Otherwise, who are you going with? Are you going with your family members?

In 59.3: This is discarding your defenses so that your insecurity or your true feelings are apparent. You are feeling your vulnerabilities.

The thing is, moving from one country to another country is such a huge task. You would need to put all personal concerns aside. If you are working toward common goals with other people, perhaps family members, you would be greatly strengthened. But when we move, we tend just to take our problems to the new location with us, of course. You know this already.

I am of the opinion that spiritual sources -- finding or renewing one's inner faith -- is the best way to dissolve the great negativity of a depression. Failing that, great family traditions, like family reunions and traditions, any practices that bring together large number of people in celebration and even recreation, can bring everybody back together and heal estrangements. Going off by oneself is the opposite tack, and it would lead you directly into danger. That's why I asked you who you were going with.

The essence of a depression is a terrible sense of lack; that something or someone is missing. We all feel a sense of lack, and it is just so important that mentally we learn to re-balance our thinking by, basically, whatever works for us -- by some kind of daily practice. Yi told you when you got 26.3 a while back that you would need some kind of daily practice in order to overcome your depression. That might mean a daily spiritual practice or it might mean a daily physical regimen of some kind. You would need to become a much more self-disciplined individual.

As the Law of Attraction people, Esther and Jerry Hicks, are always saying: Every subject is really two subjects: (1) what I want and (2) what I don't want. About everything and everybody, there will be that which we like and that which we don't like; the sense of satisfaction and the sense of lack. The depressed person cannot stop thinking that life is nothing but lack. That is why depression is said by the psychotherapists to be a distortion in the thinking/feeling process, because nobody's life is all lack.

Recovery has to do with regaining a balanced perspective. It's all about how we see things, Ichinglover. Personally, I needed to find a suitable spiritual practice to overcome my own series of depressions.

I don't know if moving is going to do that for you. They say when people move they just take their problems along to the new location with them.

How will you support yourself financially in the new location if you're in a depressed state and not in any condition to find work? It's very expensive to live in the United States. Beyond this, I cannot comment, because there are too many unanswered questions to your example. You seem not to know what the root of your depression is -- or perhaps you have just chosen not to say what it is, for good reason. Best of luck to you, Ichinglover. :bows::bows:

ichinglover said:

Dear Willowfox,
I do enjoy reading your straight-to-the-point, right-on -the -money type of interpretation, and I suspect I'm not the only one...
What do you think of 59.1.3. - ""why am I so against this move to the US", I'm anxious to hear your opinion...Please?

Click to expand...

It simply suggests that your heart just isn't in it, the upheaval, the need to start from scratch, the need for a complete new beginning, its just so daunting which in reality it is. For a start you know that you will need the help of others, so for a long while you will be dependent on the charity of friends and colleagues, your freedom of action will be curtailed while you try and establish a new life for yourself, so you are thinking how this ordeal will affect you directly. It's life changing and many people hate or just can't face the prospect of such drastic changes placed upon them, the burden is just to heavy to bear and then there is the fear of failure as sometimes the "grass is not greener on the other side".

I really feel for you. I can't add anything to what anyone has said about your I Ching reading, except that I have had a LOT of 23 this year and it did seem to be about things being as bad as they could be 'darkest before dawn' sort of thing. Remember that in the Sequence, after 23 comes 24, the Turning Point.

If I may suggest something that could help you, it is the Emotional Freedom Technique, which can be extremly effective for depression because it tackes the root of the depression without making you go over and over the same ground as you would with talking therapies. I have found it to be extremely beneficial. You can find out about it at Gary Craig's site www.emofree.com and he has a list of qualified practitioners in many different countries. Gary also does lots of DVDs at tiny prices and encourages people to copy them so that the EFT message gets out - so you could even get them for free. I promise you it is worth persevering with EFT.

Hope this helps you.

Oh my God, thanks a lot!

I wanted to thank everyone for the help and support.

I checked out all the ideas proposed, the techniques I never heard about before...
Thanks again!

I really enjoy the insights into the readings, they are so cryptic sometimes...

Just to get some reassurance I asked

Will anything good happen to me?

got 64.3.4.5

It takes about the Devil country??

It sounds more like an advice, rather than prediction...And these 3 years? Is it literal...

Help please!!!!I need some hope

You have to actually begin doing something, Ichinglover. Not just talking about doing something. Time to get into action.

Ginnnie,
thanks a lot, I completely agree...Though I feel completely incapacitated for some reason..

But how did you deduct it? Is it from the reading? 64???