legal issues and standing for oneself,

hello,

i have a few questions, relating to an upcoming court case (pre-trial) on friday.
(i didn't write them down so i will try and write them as accurately as i can~)

what if i stand in court on my own?
60.6 -> 61
is this saying i should not put too many constrictions on my inner truth, to relax and not be too defensive? to not be too harsh or bitter?
or is it saying that i am being stubborn?

what if i get legal representation?
56.6 -> 62
karcher says don't be afraid to act alone... ?

what is the worst that can happen if i represent myself?
12.1.3 -> 13

what is the best that can happen if i represent myself?
10 unchanging

so because of conflicting advice (not necessarily the i ching, nor over this specific question) and overload of information and influences from all corners i take a deep breath and i articulate the following:

question 1:
i am considering representing myself in court without a lawyer, humbly and genuinely, seeking a dialogue with calm inner truth that will face adversity with simplicity, uprightness and dignity. what is the i chings comment on this?
19.1 -> 7
is this suggesting that through approaching in the right manner, i will find allies in the court itself? that i need an organised approach? that i'm on the right track?

question 2
pretty much everyone who i have spoken about this to (friends, family) have strongly advised me that i should seek legal representation rather than stand on my own, that it would be foolish to do otherwise, what is the i chings counsel on their thoughts?
6.4 -> 59
dispersing arguments? retreat peacefully from their advice? or is it that i should follow their advice? is it saying that this is something that i can't win anyway so best to withdraw and move on? (i say this partly also because of 60.6 which in one translation i have mentions stubborness, but maybe i undermine myself)

two other readings on the same issue which came earlier on in the day:
what inner attitude do i need to focus on?
64.1.3 -> 14

and later this evening, what way is the tao flowing with regards to this situation , that i should meditate on?
64.5 -> 6

brief background info, the offense is minor and i have never been arrested before so the most i would get is a fine and a blight on my record. most people pay the fine, accept the criminal record, and are done with it, and those that do contest rarely win their cases apparently, i can think of a number of reasons why this might be so. but in principle i don't want to just roll over and accept that because i didn't act criminally, nor offensively, and i don't think it is fair. at the same time i'm not out to 'get' anyone, simply i don't feel the system as it is at the moment is right.
i am very tired and should rest now, i will check on this tomorrow and write more if i can.

lastly though, one last question before i go to bed,
given my current state of being and the way the tao is moving through my life at the moment how realistic is it that representing myself will have a positive outcome?
35 unchanging

thanks for taking the time to see this ... and for any comments ...

I get: cop a plea. I get that you would severely limit yourself by representing yourself, but that it's not wrong to do so. And if you do, to show a genuine face and state a genuine case. You can reach them on a human level, if not on a purely legal one... ideally.

Thing is, the above is generally and rightly considered bad advice. Not an easy call.

I think you got it right.

In my juvi delinquent days, the Jersey gang I was with (joined no gangs, was friends with most) barged into a Paterson dance, and the a leader went off on some local guy, for no reason other than to piss on his tree, establish dominance. The way opened before him, and we suspiciously followed through the crowd. Yeah, the bad-ass was the the king now. Until on our way out I noticed from a distance, a large crowd had gathered around my father's white and red '57 De Soto Fireflight convertible, and I saw the crowbars coming out of trunks. In my mind, I couldn't decide which would be worse, getting clubbed to death by the home boys, or by my father when he saw his car all smashed up. Fortunately, the cops arrived quickly and aggressively took control of the situation. At the station, parents and probation officers were called, but this one guy copped an Academy Award winning plea, about if he gets in trouble again it will ruin his life, etc.etc. Finally they asked him, how did you get to the dance? He nodded to me, whom they hadn't gotten to yet. They looked me over, asked if I was ok to drive, and I said sure! After ID-ing me, said very well, take your buddy home, and stay out of trouble. It was already too late for that, since I knew my father would find out about it. But there wasn't a scratch on his car, so I was cool .

So, cop a plea. :bows: That really is how I interpret your readings. Being genuinely sorry, maybe hamming it a bit.

thank you for your response meng.

cop a plea. it is possible that that is what will end up happening, i don't know, i can only really tell my side of the story and find out how that fits into the "letter of the law", and accept whatever outcome arises from that. I am feeling nervous, and have an emotional imagination of things agitated by the unknown that projects all sorts of things, so today i am continually trying to reign it in and stay connected to the centre of simple facts.

How it happened...

A friend and I had been to a club and at the end of the night (very cold - snow/ice, i had my coat but had been dancing so only realised once outside that i'd forgotten my jumper) i went back in to try and find it only to be physically thrown onto the street by tired, wired and grumpy staff i imagine (i don't know as i never saw who man-handled me). As staff were preparing to close the doors i went back in for one last attempt to find the sweater and my friend who had followed me in got assaulted almost immediately. I didn't see it happen, it was all so quick, i just turned around to see him lying on the ground. So he was headbutted it seems and he called the police, and a barman called the police at the same time, whilst i was asking the rest of the staff who were sitting around what had happened, and why my friend was lying on the floor with blood on his face.

When the police came, they escorted us off the premises, and once outside after a few minutes the police went to leave and we went on our way. So far just a chaotic incident behind us. But then I realise we are walking the wrong direction for home so we turn around, and it is then that the police approach us again and make to arrest my friend. There is some confusion, and I am concerned for my friend, and am trying to tell the cops that we simply are trying to go home, and wish noone any trouble, that there is no need to arrest him. Therein lies my crime it seems, if i had left them to it i'd have been allowed to go on my merry way. But in my naivete i thought i'd be able to communicate to them our innocent intent, and clear the misunderstanding. I really wasn't aggressive or screaming, and i wasn't blind drunk, (i had drunk some wine and been dancing jubilantly all night though so neither was I stone sober, but then that in itself is not illegal!), still the police cuffed me and that was it. I didn't resist. It seems that the reason they came back in the first place is because when we turned round it took us back past the club. I spent the rest of the night in the cell. It is strange to me that one can get arrested for so little, that prints are taken, dna, and a criminal record is given to people who are not wishing any harm? In fact it was only on my release that they charged me at all! I thought they were simply letting me go (may have something to do with one of the officers, after taking my prints etc saying "you are lucky, they are letting you go".

I sometimes work with autistic children (arts and crafts workshops) so I am also concerned with how such a record might affect that, and other things.
I'm not a teenager either, I'm 35 years old and this is all a bit of a slap in the face (let alone the wrists ! )

"Being genuinely sorry, maybe hamming it a bit" ...
hmm, how do you mean? I need to be sincere also. I am not knocking your advice, i read it as driving your point home and maybe even playing to the authority figure a bit, it certainly worked for your friend, but I really didn't do anything wrong. In my eyes, sure. I would like to know why my actions were considered offensive and meriting all this. Things that i can be genuinely sorry for ... that i forgot my jumper in the first place, that i went back in to get it, that my friend came in with me and got hit? That we walked the wrong direction? that I questioned the arrest on my friend, that the misunderstanding happened at all? That inadvertantly I committed a crime that I wasn't aware of? It is all genuinely unfortunate But I can't feel sorry for walking, for talking, existing and doing what I thought was right. I don't feel that any crime in this case exists. If it turns out i upset a statute, then I guess that is that. I know for next time not to try and talk to the police. Still it doesn't make it fair. I'd never choose to hurt anyone, and I am generally the reasonable one, the peaceful one, the one who tries to soothe the waters and bring some perspective to a situation...

I don't know, since this happened it has made me very thoughtful about many things.

I'm sure there are many with similar stories. I came across a few talkin with people in the magistrates court for the plea-entry hearing.

For some reason it is important for me to say my peace, and ask some questions, to not simply say guilty because I'm afraid to do otherwise. Perhaps in a way i called this to me spiritually and it is my personal challenge, to confront fears, to consider things that i may not otherwise consider, I'm open to that possibility. Of course I would like the charges to be dropped, I am also aware that that may not happen, but .... but... but.... to say nothing? Neither do I want to create needless problems for myself. I think both the police and I had an incomplete picture of the situation. Like I said I am not out to create trouble for any individuals, and I know the police are generally trying to do their jobs as it is laid out for them.

Still, they never interviewed me in the station, just handed me a leaflet and offered me a coffee when they woke me up. Maybe if they had it would never have gone to court. Maybe I should have had the presence of mind to request one.

So cop a plea. Yes. Once I comprehend fully what it is I am supposed to have done, I will be able to say one way or another. The charge is very vaguely defined. The police woman's short statement given to the court is not strictly true, certainly not how I experienced it, and is contradicted in some ways, in its 'picture' of me, by the record of events that was written up shortly after the arrests. Just one example is that she states I refused to give my details, but i was never asked for them, probably because they were so focussed on my friend. Maybe I can ask them to bring both these documents, and any others, to the case somehow and it will be of some use in its discrepancies.

Ok. Going to ponder some more.

Have you any interpretations of the lines themselves in relation to the questions I asked? I am definitely concerned with advice, and greatly welcome your synopsis, but am also interested in the i chings dialogue and how you (and others) may understand the hexagrams and lines.

Thanks again Meng, for the comments and the story... your dad's car sounded wonderful, i can imagine what a joy it must have been to use it and the heart in mouth moment when it was so close to being battered! Glad it all ended well

yes, there is a human, living side to every symbol and every role. rereading your story your message sinks in more and more.

i threw a casting today that was to release the abyss, (29.4.5 -> 40) i interpreted that i need to let go of some of my fears and emotional tension, forgive the past, don't project too much into the future unless it is coming from a focused center. dispel panicy shadows and do what needs to be done. My situation is a little different from the guy in your story, but he was simply sharing the repercussions it would have on his life and connecting with the essentials. With common needs. some sort of assessment has to to be reached on how far punishment fits circumstance.

wow. great that you compacted so much food for thought so lightly and into so little space nice.

I hope you report back and let us know how this plays out for you. Your cognition appears to be firing on all cylinders. Good luck.

The image I've gotten from you is 'the gentle revolutionary'.

che said:

Have you any interpretations of the lines themselves in relation to the questions I asked? I am definitely concerned with advice, and greatly welcome your synopsis, but am also interested in the i chings dialogue and how you (and others) may understand the hexagrams and lines.

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Sure. The cognitive process went something like this.

what if i stand in court on my own?
60.6 -> 61

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You may limit your effectiveness, but if you rule it out all together, you may be tying your own throat, preventing your truth from being heard.

what if i get legal representation?
56.6 -> 62

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You will have no choice but to speak only when spoken to, while your legal council get embroiled in legal technicalities.

what is the worst that can happen if i represent myself?
12.1.3 -> 13

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You can at least gain some public support.

what is the best that can happen if i represent myself?
10 unchanging

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You get to tread on the system .

i am considering representing myself in court without a lawyer, humbly and genuinely, seeking a dialogue with calm inner truth that will face adversity with simplicity, uprightness and dignity. what is the i chings comment on this?
19.1 -> 7

Click to expand...

Gather your forces and your facts, then present them responsibly and with some authority, seeing truth is on your side.

pretty much everyone who i have spoken about this to (friends, family) have strongly advised me that i should seek legal representation rather than stand on my own, that it would be foolish to do otherwise, what is the i chings counsel on their thoughts?
6.4 -> 59

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You may eventually concede that they are right, or you may lose some of the stiffness of your originally intended approach. Being less prepared to fight and more prepared to resolve the matter satisfactorily.

lastly though, one last question before i go to bed,
given my current state of being and the way the tao is moving through my life at the moment how realistic is it that representing myself will have a positive outcome?
35 unchanging

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Based on all this, if you sharpen your arrows and practice your marksmanship, and keep a cool head, 35 indicates you'll be well prepared. Three times your truth will be heard.

Great Reading!

che said:

question 2
pretty much everyone who i have spoken about this to (friends, family) have strongly advised me that i should seek legal representation rather than stand on my own, that it would be foolish to do otherwise, what is the i chings counsel on their thoughts?
6.4 -> 59

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From the WikiWing:

"Conflict, Arguing. Words before a judge – arguing one’s case, protesting injustice. One way or another, you’re in dispute with what is."

and Line 4:

"Not in control of the argument,
Turning back, approaching mandate.
Renouncing, settling peacefully.
Constancy, good fortune.'"

Boy is that true! You are in not in control in a courtroom and your ideas of fair play and winning the argument aren't valid. The legal system is not the place to pursue truth! Settle peacefully! Take Meng's advice.

Tiger

settling peacefully

hello

well, update on what happened.

i didn't go out and get legal representation in the end, i decided to trust in the process. I had a few people with me who came along for moral support (my uncle and his partner who happens to be my best friend came with their little baby, and my mother - who also happens to be my best friend - came too) ... mum, bless her, was prepared to help pay whatever was needed for a lawyer but it would have wiped her out for sure (56.6? ... certainly if i consider it from this perspective, but as i relate what happened we will see it from another also ). anyway for me it was never really an option, so i went to court independent and open to what may happen.

When in court, waiting for my case to be heard, i took the opportunity to ask the duty solicitor there what i should expect. He said that for the offense i was charged with i was not eligible for a duty solicitor but he was willing to run through the process briefly with me and i said i knew that, that i was representing myself, i just wanted to be as prepared as possible. When he realised what stage in the legal process i was at, he asked me to see the police statement i'd been given at the plea hearing and whether it was factual so i explained to him how it wasn't and told him everything that happened. He recognised my sincerity and felt that i would present well in court and that it might be possible things would work out, even so the magistrates tended to believe the police over joe public... our conversation was interrupted as he had to represent in court and was very busy, so i waited, and then we resumed our conversation. The upshot was that he thought it might be possible to have all charges dropped and records wiped in return for being "bound to the peace". There ensued a long wait whilst he attended his usual duties, and made relevant phonecalls where he could - the police were in meetings so it took a while before he could get through (a couple of hours) during which time he was also filling the prosecution in on developments whilst seeing to his other scheduled cases.

So,
Quote:
i am considering representing myself in court without a lawyer, humbly and genuinely, seeking a dialogue with calm inner truth that will face adversity with simplicity, uprightness and dignity. what is the i chings comment on this?
19.1 -> 7
is this suggesting that through approaching in the right manner, i will find allies in the court itself? that i need an organised approach? that i'm on the right track?

... seems so. Alfred Huang says of this line "they mutually influence each other with their noble characters. The bottom line is correct - a yang element at a yang place. His will is to act in the right way. Through steadfastness there will be good fortune."

Through approach, "gathering my forces and my facts, then presenting them responsibly and with some authority, seeing truth is on my side" (yes, thanks meng) I found unexpected help. I trusted this man, and he trusted me and helped me cross the water as it were.

60.6 -> 61 was saying that I should present my truth, yet there was also a risk that I would overreach myself, as implied in 64.1.3 -> 14 (inner attitudes to focus on), which advised me to not hesitate, yet procede with caution and take heed of my limitations. I had very quick decisions to make and my stubbornness almost led me to rejecting the duty solicitor's assistance... at one point as i was tossing things back and forth in my head i caught him as he passed and asked him outright if maybe i should just go ahead and argue my not guilty case, he gently and succinctly said "not today, no".

Alfred Huang says of 64.5 -> 6 (the tao of the situation that i should meditate on), "the fifth line is a yin element at a yang place. Although this is the supreme position, it is not appropriate for her. Fortunately, one at this place is gentle and humble and responds to the yang element at the second place, who is a powerful supporter. Thus, remaining steadfast and upright will bring good fortune. She is able to be bright and virtuous, the light of the superior person is sincere and truthful." Karcher's direction for this line states to "stay out of quarrels and wrangles. Find supportive friends. Gather energy for a decisive new move."

So let us go now to inside the court room itself. Imagine my surprise when I realised the same duty solicitor had taken it upon himself to represent me (I'll admit i was disappointed as I wanted to speak for myself before the magistrates. It is possible this could have happened but I was a little confused and surprised and everything from this point happened very quickly). Looking back, I realise that the prosecution had approached me earlier asking if i was being represented by the duty solicitor, and had he told me that my case was not eligible for free legal representation... I said i wasn't sure what was happening (I was still waiting for news from the police) but he had said as much when i first spoke to him - frankly i didn't know. i was just trying to keep a hold on what was going on, whilst letting things unfold. So when i did eventually go into the court room, I knew that the binding to peace was potentially agreed to, yet i thought the duty solicitor had done what he could and the rest was up to me. However, as it turned out, he was there and put forward my case. He was very sweet and asked me after if i was ok, as I had looked a bit confused. He did put my case forward well, he had listened closely to what i said and repeated it pretty much accurately, even stating that i was not guilty of the charge yet was prepared to settle for BttP.

So here we come to another 56.6 interpretation.
The magistrates/judges asked me how much I have in my bank account. The truth is I am skint (financially speaking), i have just £100, and no income at the moment (no work, no state benefits)! So that is the bond they decided on. I am bound to the peace on a bond of £100, everything I have... I think this describes the conditions of my binding to the peace quite well: 56.6 -> 62 : keep a clean nose, be 'small' , sincere and alert, walking the middle way, else risk losing everything (in this instance £100)! As such, all charges are dropped and my records are wiped.

When I got home, I asked the I Ching what 56.6 has to do with bound to the peace, and received 25.2 -> 10 . Disentangling, innocence, without falsehood. "One at this place is able to align with the will of Heaven and acts in harmony with Nature. She does not count on the harvest while plowing nor on the results while recultivating old soil. This is the true spirit of Without Falsehood. With this attitude of pursuing the truth, there will be advantage in any direction" (HUANG) hah, putting your money where your mouth is!?
this has a deeper resonance for me also, that as yet i can not articulate in words...

So, to the other casts -
6.4 -> 59
i did indeed disperse of the advice of my family and friends, however as meng interpreted i did eventually adjust my initial approach, more prepared to settle the matter satisfactorily, the flow providing me with help anyway. Tiger's lines are quite fitting here too. And settling "peacefully" is literally what did happen. I asked whether accepting this deal was a tacit acceptance of guilt, and I was told no, on the record.

I think i interpreted 29.4.5 -> 40 quite accurately in the moment ("i need to let go of some of my fears and emotional tension, forgive the past, don't project too much into the future unless it is coming from a focused center. dispel panicy shadows and do what needs to be done"), yet in retrospect i notice something else. Line 4 speaks of simple offerings passed through a window, aid. Karcher speaks of arrival of rescuers. Under normal circumstances I had no right to legal aid, yet this man helped me and asked nothing in return. Huang says "in ordinary circumstances, there are numerous requirements concerning etiquette between a king and a minister. During a time of difficulty and darkness, they treat each other with respect... They do not rely on material things, but only on a spirit of faithfulness and reverence. This is the attitude to adopt in dealing with a difficult situation: one should be as sincere as the king and minister and as faithful and reverent as when offering a sacrifice." Line 5 talks of danger passing, maintaining self confidence and finding a way out. "Go on with your life and your plans" Karcher translates, "Be happy with your release". 40 of course, deals with relief, of not delaying if there is somewhere to go, and returning to normal when there is nothing more to do.

There are a couple more things i want to add about all this, about hex 35 for example, and there is another element to the tale that i haven't really touched on yet, but i am going to post this up first. it has been a long write-up

thanks ...

Nice follow up. Awaiting more on your 35.

i don't know about gentle revolutionary meng, i wonder if you got that from my name?
che means friend ...

Nice name, Che.

No, just my impression from things you've said. The willingness to fight for what you believe, while maintaining equilibrium and poise. I get a certain sense of nobility from someone who writes:

For some reason it is important for me to say my peace, and ask some questions, to not simply say guilty because I'm afraid to do otherwise. Perhaps in a way i called this to me spiritually and it is my personal challenge, to confront fears, to consider things that i may not otherwise consider, I'm open to that possibility.

Click to expand...

che said:

what if i stand in court on my own?
60.6 -> 61

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It would be painful. The I Ching has counseled you right here to stop following that course.

che said:

what if i get legal representation?
56.6 -> 62

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You'd be burning down your situation. There is something else you are supposed to be doing that you are carelessly forgetting, and I hope you remember by tomorrow what it is.

che said:

what is the worst that can happen if i represent myself?
12.1.3 -> 13

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Much miscommunication and divergence of interests would be in store for you.

che said:

what is the best that can happen if i represent myself?
10 unchanging

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In the ritual of the trial, you may appear to others as being overly opinionated or out of balance.

But some question arises about your values, Che, because there is something else, more important, on your plate -- or soon to be on your plate. Sometimes the I Ching is a little ahead of us. It is urging you to drop your preoccupation with this matter, as something more important is approaching you. You have only one thing to do at present and that is to calm down.