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Blog post: A place to watch your soul

hilary

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There’s a much-quoted passage from Wang Bi’s General Remarks on the Zhouyi about concepts and images:

“Images are the means to express ideas. …The images are generated by ideas, thus one can ponder the images and so observe what the ideas are. The ideas are yielded up completely by the images, and the images are made explicit by the words. Thus, since the words are the means to explain the images, once one gets the images, he forgets the words, and, since the images are the means to allow us to concentrate on the ideas, once one gets the ideas, he forgets the images. Similarly, ‘…the fish trap exists for the sake of fish; once one gets the fish, he forgets the trap.’ If this is so, then …the images are traps for the ideas.

…Anything that corresponds analogously to an idea can serve as its image, and any concept that fits with an idea can serve as corroboration of its nature. If the concept involves really has to do with dynamism, why must it only be presented in terms of the horse?”

(From RJ Lynn, Classic of Changes – the complete Yijing with all ten Wings and Wang Bi’s original commentary.)

Now, I know next to nothing about Wang Bi’s thought, and I’m quoting excerpts out of context – and also out of the historical context within which he was writing. I believe he was emphasising that images are metaphors and point beyond themselves, rather than necessarily trying to argue that imagery is basically redundant and can be usefully discarded in favour of abstractions. However, his choice of words (and imagery!) does lend itself to support of that view… so here’s another quotation, in support of an alternative view.

This is from James Hillman, A Blue Fire, talking about dream imagery:

“For instance, a black snake comes in a dream, a great big black snake, and you can spend a whole hour with this black snake talking about the devouring mother, talking about the anxiety, talking about the repressed sexuality, talking about the natural mind, all those interpretive moves that people make, and what is left, what is vitally important, is what that snake is doing [...] The moment you’ve defined the snake, interpreted it, you’ve lost the snake, you’ve stopped it, and then the person leaves the hour with a concept about my repressed sexuality, or my cold black passions or my mother or whatever it is, and you’ve lost the snake. [...] See, the snake’s no longer necessary the moment it’s been interpreted, and you don’t need your dreams any more because they’ve been interpreted.”

So Hillman agrees that once you have the concept, you can discard the image… he just doesn’t see this as such a helpful move. He* continues:

“But I think you need them all the time, you need that very image you had during the night. For example, a policeman, chasing you down the street… you need that image, because that image keeps you in an imaginative possibility … if you say, ‘Oh, my guilt complex is loose again and is chasing me down the street,’ it’s a different feeling, because you’ve taken up the unknown policeman into your ego system of what you know, your guilt. You’ve absorbed the unkown into the known (made the unconscious conscious) and nothing, absolutely nothing has happened, nothing. You’re really safe from that policeman, and you can go to sleep again.”

There are two pages here I could happily quote in their entirety… but just three more sentences:

The image is always more inclusive, more complex than the concept.

“The images are where the psyche is.”

“The gift of an image is that it affords a place to watch your soul.”

This corresponds with my own experience from readings with Yi. Its images – made of lines, trigrams, words, deep etymological roots, allusions to myth and legend… – are not reducible to concepts, and not replaceable in the divination process. (This is why I go on endlessly about how vital it is to have a translation that gives you as much access as possible to that original richness of imagery. Even if the author has done a superlative job of expressing the a concept behind the image, this is not the gift.)

It’s one thing to consider how you need better ‘personal boundaries’ when responding to other people’s emotions. It’s something else altogether to be given the image of your self as a mountain with space for a lake. This can become part of your bodily awareness of your emotions, and allows you to change and recreate your sense of self out of this new imagery.

This is next to impossible to describe, but it’s an example from my own experience, receiving Hexagram 31 when asking about empathy, experiencing other people’s emotions as my own, and it did have that effect of reshaping my inner landscape. Perhaps this is how an image Yi offers is a different kind of gift from those that arise in dreams – not only a place to watch your soul, but somehow a place, a shaping force, that allows it to change.

I’ve seen the same truth at work in reading for others. It’s one thing to tell someone they need to be strong and confident (this isn’t, as a rule, news to anyone); quite another to tell them they can become a tiger. (And when a person does become a tiger, this is a remarkable transformation to behold!) What happens here is far beyond anything I might ‘explain’ to the person I’m reading for, or anything that I (or they) might ‘understand’.
 
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maremaria

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“The gift of an image is that it affords a place to watch your soul.”

awesome !!!

Thanks for sharing
 

jilt

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I just love cats, and it is the year of the tiger.....
 

peter2610

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A Place to Watch Your Soul

Hi Hilary,
Just browsing when I came across your very interesting thread on images.
Images/Symbols have a powerful role within the psyche because they mediate so readily with the unconscious - where explicit rationality does not operate. Over time, certain symbols become embedded with multiple dimensions of meaning, these are Archetypes. Their powerful symbolism is multi-aspected and, as you rightly point out, they "are not reducible to concepts."
When any unconscious meaning is 'triggered' or exposed by a conscious process such as divination, then that meaningful content can be 'objectified' and consciously accessed by the ego. This allows the meaningful content to be integrated within the person's process of individuation.
The process is so powerful because it is one of internal self-realization (enlightenment) at a profound level where ordinary rational processes (Mundane Consciousness in Taoism) do not operate.
Best Regards
Peter
 

hilary

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Hi Peter,

Thanks for this. A question - what does 'objectified' mean in this context - how does that work?

I do agree that there are changes happening here at a level beyond rational grasp; I'm interested in how this is described.
 

peter2610

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Hi Hilary,
'Objectified' in this context means bringing an unconscious formation into the purview of conscious processes such that its significance can be integrated and utilized. Unconscious formations tend to present themselves in the language of imagery and symbols, primarily in dreams but also in the iconic symbols of culture. The more repressed an unconscious complex, the greater its unseen influence on conscious process. By openly facing unconscious formations we can eventually unlock their symbolism and 'objectify' their content. This removes the unseen influence of the unconscious element, releases its libidinal energy and allows the conscious mind to incorporate its content.
The process is similar, but not identical, in divination. Synchronicity presents us with a symbolic 'archetypal' image which will resonate with our unconscious imagery. By being openly receptive to the meaning of this imagery we unlock and objectify its content such that we can increasingly incorporate the contents of our unconscious - and approach 'wholeness' or individuation. With practice we become increasingly adept in certain areas, but others prove to be a lifetime's work.
Have emailed you a copy of my paper on this subject, published by The British Psychological Society.
Best Regards,
Peter
 
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chushel

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These are wonderful insights -- and very timely.
The whole topic of images, the unconscious and Divination and how they relate/interface has my complete attention !
Would it be possible for the paper that Peter wrote to be shared here on Clarity as well ?
 

pantherpanther

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Take another look at the blog post - I didn't use Hillman to interpret any lines (though I might in future, who knows... I'll draw on anything that helps), only to advocate allowing the images (of all kinds) space to do their thing. And yes, I quoted a Westerner to defend the integrity and uniqueness of the Yi against a Chinese writer who seemed to have taken a more reductionist approach

Hilary,
i see you were using "soul" in reference to your own work . I had recalled on the other thread
the quote from James Hillman “The gift of an image is that it affords a place to watch your soul,” which you repeated, applying it to your work . You are actively seeking for an image, not discovering one passively in a dream, to put it roughly. It is a nice analogy to indicate the power of an image to touch and engage more parts of one's being as a whole, if I understand you.
You had mentioned Wang Bi had a "reductionist" view, as a contrast. He has been called "harsh," as you know I'm sure, because of his brilliant, youthful rigidity. I am not familiar enough with his commentary to be clear what he meant in the quote, although I have a general idea of what his philosophy was and what his teaching was based on. I think the quote might warrant a scholarly paper to interpret and explicate.

He seems to indicate that images and words can serve as catalysts or means to raise one's consciousness and work to refine the "soul." Ideas are light, dynamic and alive, part of a different level, like the realm of the Immortals, yet part of our "soul." An active relation between two worlds or levels can be sought as a practice. In studying the ancients' thought Buddha said that one can hear the dharma being spoken (or Songs of immortals) in open space when the souls interact with others and they alternate as host and guests. Lu Tungpin (one of the eight immortals) called this state "the presence of the gods in the valley." The first of three confirmatory experiences which can be tested. These experiences are to be considered "states," that is temporary and not indicative of sagehood. We have ten souls according to the Chinese, the collective term for "soul" is Hun Po. Each person has three Hun and seven Po. Hun represents the light, heavenly soul while Po represents the dark, earthly or animal soul. An aim of Daoist cultivation is the refinement of the Po, the earthly and animal soul . Wang Bi for a time disapproved of Confucius because he expressed emotions. He eventually came to think that as emotion is part of human nature,that even a sage could only react as a person. A sage wouldn't be taken or controlled by emotions.

PS

Wang Bi's words from the same text (which vary a bit from your quote) perhaps make his thought clearer:

"Therefore someone who stays fixed on the words will not be one to get the images, and someone who stays fixed on the images will not be one to get the ideas. The images are generated by the ideas, but if one stays fixed on the images themselves, then what he stays fixed on will not be images as we mean them here. The words are generated by the images, but if one stays fixed on the words themselves, then what he stays fixed on will not be words as we mean them here. If this is so, then someone who forgets the images will be the one to get the ideas, and someone who forgets the words will be one to get the images. Getting the ideas is in fact a matter of forgetting the images, and getting the images is in fact a matter of forgetting the words."

If I understand Wang Bi correctly, one has to discriminate between those words and images that are generated by ideas, the higher level accessible within, and those words or images that are constantly generated by life, which include emotions, sensations and thoughts which humans imagine are real although they are largely acquired reactions. Similarly, they imagine they have a real identity or self, not a multiplicity of self-images. The development of the attention enables discrimination. A danger is to allow words and images that have meaning to be mixed with other "ordinary" images and words and so diluted , becoming no longer useful for work. Many mystics fall into this mixing.
 
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elvis

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there are some small issues with image work in that there is a light loss in precision but it can aid in getting a feel for classes of experiences free of sensory colourings.

There is a play of position(instance)/recognition as there of identity/diversity (e.g. 59/55)

The attraction of symmetry is SAMENESS, anti-symmetry to DIFFERENCE and asymmetry to MEDIATION and so LANGUAGE. Directed language is as speech, mythic language is more sensory and covers image work BUT directed is more precise and aids in converting serial to parallel, partial to holistic, mechanical to organic, reasoned to intuited. Thus DISCUSSION here aids in resolving image issues in our 'homework'.
 
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peter2610

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Chushel - many thanks for your kind remarks and yes, I'd be quite happy for my paper to be available on Clarity if Hilary thought it suitable.

Hilary - Thinking further on your question regarding objectifying unconscious elements, this is a huge topic but any Jungian book on the process of 'Individuation' would be a good place to start. The same process is incorporated in many spiritual paths - in Taoism it comes under 'Reversing' and seeking the 'True Mind', in Gurdjieff's teaching it is referred to as 'The Work'. It is the principal goal of Zen Buddhism where the purpose of Koans and other meditation practices is to break down the rational conditioning of the mind (mundane consciousness) in order to access and release true perception and enlightenment.
Jung's approach was primarily to try to access the unconscious 'shadow' by unlocking the symbolism of our dreams and bring its content into conscious integration, but the full process of individuation goes much further than this.
Hope this might be of some use.
Peter
 

Tohpol

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Oh, great post Hilary!

I've been meaning to look further into James Hillman and his ideas on art therapy. I like them very much indeed - at least what I've read so far. Art / archeptypes and real creativity can be such a powerful healing process and is strangely separate from the personality of the creator. By that I mean the images and informing archetypal energy seems to have a life of it's own if one can just let it flow and be. Inspired creativity seems to tap into something universal and which is then "coloured" by the personality conditioning. I think there's something vital that is very slowly beginning to be understood regarding the concept of what we term as the "soul" and it's relationship to healing and the arts.

“The image is always more inclusive, more complex than the concept.”

Yes, always. Would love to return to this when I have more time...

Topal
 

pantherpanther

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Hilary wrote:I was only addressing the position Wang Bi's quote is used to support ('the words are just a commentary on the lines, dispensable once you understand the lines') - not pretending any in-depth of understanding of what he's saying.

On Wang Bi and divination. The same word or image can be sacred or profane, according to how it is used and perceived. Does this make sense ? Regarding Wang’s commentary on the hexagrams and divination. Wang's "forgetfulness" of words and images draws on Zhuangzi's thought; he uses Daoist ideas to interpret the Yi. He takes the ideas of of being (you) and nothingness (wu) from the Daodejing. Wang seeks the 'iprinciple (li) behind all specific objects. He considered that the principle is discoverable in one of the six lines of a hexagram, so that the other five become secondary. These principles constitute "the fiber of the One." This conforms to what he says about ideas generating images and images , words. To divine, one's attention should not try to tie a Yi counsel to outer events or situations alone as most Yi diviners did. " A look from above" through "forgetting" the words, then the images, until the ideas appeared, would include that and provide a deeper understanding of the Yi hexagram line and its relevance. (Wang wished to develop a social and political philosophy based on this approach, conformable with Confucius', but he died at 23.) Along this line, the sage should have “no deliberate mind of his own” (wuxin) but instead should respond to life events spontaneously, going beyond the ordinary mind. The sage in a higher state of consciousness (or level of energy) has risen above desires (ordinary human thoughts, emotions, sensations - the "natural man") which are heavy and corrupted. A sage's effortless effort is not about decreasing desire; it represents the absence of desire — emptiness, or Non-Being. In his early writings Wang disapproved of Confucius for expressing emotions. Spiritual practice matured him. He became a Confucian. He came to see that because emotion is part of human nature,that a sage could react as a person, but wouldn't be controlled by emotions.

It is interesting to compare Jung to Wang Bi. Jung essentially "copied" the same ideas, but left out half the meaning and content of the teaching. He "psychologized" the system . A bridge to nowhere can be a "good thing." It can lead to the beginning of wisdom .
 
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neegula

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Oh, great post Hilary!

I mean the images and informing archetypal energy seems to have a life of it's own if one can just let it flow and be.
Topal
thanks for having pointed out this.
i hear very often friends coming back from their first shamanic journey saying "i don't know if it was me inventing this....", and normally "seniors" smile tenderly...:rolleyes::)

yes, hilary, great post!:bows:
 

hilary

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...I'd be quite happy for my paper to be available on Clarity if Hilary thought it suitable.
Yes, please! If you find it's too large to upload with the 'attachment' button here, let me know and I'll do so myself.
...Wang Bi ... has been called "harsh," as you know I'm sure, because of his brilliant, youthful rigidity. I am not familiar enough with his commentary to be clear what he meant in the quote, although I have a general idea of what his philosophy was and what his teaching was based on. I think the quote might warrant a scholarly paper to interpret and explicate.
Agreed! I was only addressing the position Wang Bi's quote is used to support ('the words are just a commentary on the lines, dispensable once you understand the lines') - not pretending any in-depth of understanding of what he's saying.

I wonder how different our understanding of the Yijing might be now if he'd lived another 10 or 20 years?
He seems to indicate that images and words can serve as catalysts or means to raise one's consciousness and work to refine the "soul." Ideas are light, dynamic and alive, part of a different level, like the realm of the Immortals, yet part of our "soul." An active relation between two worlds or levels can be sought as a practice. In studying the ancients' thought Buddha said that one can hear the dharma being spoken (or Songs of immortals) in open space when the souls interact with others and they alternate as host and guests. Lu Tungpin (one of the eight immortals) called this state "the presence of the gods in the valley." ...
This is completely fascinating - casts a different light on the idea of 'forgetting the images' - thank you.

Would love to return to this when I have more time...
Ditto! I've juxtaposed two quotations from two thinkers I know more or less nothing about. It makes for a fun blog post and a lot of frustration when I look at how many other things I have to do before I can study either of them.
 
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meng

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I love this subject, but I think it's a bumpy one to try to follow in a straight line. Overall, regarding the main point, I agree. But then I find disagreement with myself about it.

First, I agree with becoming the image, as the image is more inclusive and enduring than the thought the image creates, to solve a problem or question.

A personal one for me is "white dog", who is the quintessential observer. The image of white dog is more dependable than any and all thoughts which stem from contemplating what white dog is or what he says or what he means. The image is more essential.

However, as white dog helps me resolve what is observed, it is still an image and a form itself: white dog. So then, what is the image and where does it come from, if not from the object of observation? (me)

I understand the meaning of "it has a life of its own", and respect it a great deal in this kind of context, but I'm also cautious of Platonic fetishism which attempts to objectify the subject.

It reminds me of something Bradford had once said regarding that (to me) special mountain peak, with images of hawk and heads, named Castle Rock: "Cool pile of rocks." I became a little indignant, because to me it represented more than a pile of rocks. And though the image is of greater significance (to me) than what the image has to tell me, show me or teach me on any given day, it is indeed just a cool pile of rocks.
 

neegula

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I understand the meaning of "it has a life of its own", and respect it a great deal in this kind of context, but I'm also cautious of Platonic fetishism which attempts to objectify the subject.

from my little and simple point of view: anything i see belongs to me, comes from Me; but i'm not making so actively that my Guiding Animal tells me something, i'm not inventing activley (otherwise which is the sense of it?!). i ask a question, for instance, and He/She answers; what is answered to me it's a surprise.
"i'm going to canada by myself?" -"if you go to canada you go with your kids, then you'll enjoy another trip by yourself".


ciao meng:)
 
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chushel

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I love this subject, but I think it's a bumpy one to try to follow in a straight line. Overall, regarding the main point, I agree. But then I find disagreement with myself about it.

First, I agree with becoming the image, as the image is more inclusive and enduring than the thought the image creates, to solve a problem or question.

A personal one for me is "white dog", who is the quintessential observer. The image of white dog is more dependable than any and all thoughts which stem from contemplating what white dog is or what he says or what he means. The image is more essential.
However, as white dog helps me resolve what is observed, it is still an image (and a form itself: white dog. So then, what is the image and where does it come from, if not from the object of observation?me)
I understand the meaning of "it has a life of its own", and respect it a great deal in this kind of context, but I'm also cautious of Platonic fetishism which attempts to objectify the subject.

It reminds me of something Bradford had once said regarding that (to me) special mountain peak, with images of hawk and heads, named Castle Rock: "Cool pile of rocks." I became a little indignant, because to me it represented more than a pile of rocks. And though the image is of greater significance (to me) than what the image has to tell me, show me or teach me on any given day, it is indeed just a cool pile of rocks.

Hello Meng;
I'm not sure if I am understanding accurately what you mean --- but this is what your words evoke in me.
I often struggle with getting the image :) into language but I'll give it a shot.

Perhaps the image containing meaning or power or magic does come from "me" --but it is a part that is much larger than the way I normally experience the world ( either inner or outer world). As I observe ( or relate - for that is how I experience it ) to the image, I am changed, expanded in some way. I have been pervaded and altered. Often, as well, the image itself undergoes some sort of change in this process.
I have found that I like to leave some parts of the experience unexplained because in that way, I am not creating a cage but am allowing the image to stay free. Possibly a metaphor would be, that the images are the wild, natural flora and fauna of the inner landscape -- which I have been given the honor of interacting with.
Hope that makes some sort of sense.

Chushel
 
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meng

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from my little and simple point of view: anything i see belongs to me, comes from Me;

I like this. :)

but i'm not making so actively that my Guiding Animal tells me something, i'm not inventing activley (otherwise which is the sense of it?!). i ask a question, for instance, and He/She answers; what is answered to me it's a surprise.

This I'm interested to hear more about. By actively you mean consciously?

For me, white dog is not a guiding animal, but a passive witnes. And he/she/it doesn't belong to me, but to the painter of white houses. But white dog does act as a powerful defense against imaginary attacks, even ones that appear real, by its detachment, absence of fear, no matter how fearful the nightmare may be. That detachment is in the form of the image of a white dog. Which is greater: me here, me everywhere (as potential), or white dog? :mischief:

Surprise is life's most joyous mystery. How, in a dream, is it possible to be surprised, when it is we who are dreaming? Who is surprising and who is surprised? And why don't they know each other well enough to dispel anything which might be surprising? lol

I think it's because one exists in the form of potentials, while one focuses on me, the singular entity. The surprise comes from out of potentials :eek::eek::eek: and then we can :rofl:

ciao neegula
 

neegula

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Which is greater: me here, me everywhere (as potential), or white dog? :mischief:

and this is GREAT!!!:D

i'll go on tomorrow, my bed is calling me now...



forum: thank you for today:):bows:
 
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meng

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Hello Meng;
I'm not sure if I am understanding accurately what you mean --- but this is what your words evoke in me.
I often struggle with getting the image :) into language but I'll give it a shot.

Perhaps the image containing meaning or power or magic does come from "me" --but it is a part that is much larger than the way I normally experience the world ( either inner or outer world). As I observe ( or relate - for that is how I experience it ) to the image, I am changed, expanded in some way. I have been pervaded and altered. Often, as well, the image itself undergoes some sort of change in this process.
I have found that I like to leave some parts of the experience unexplained because in that way, I am not creating a cage but am allowing the image to stay free. Possibly a metaphor would be, that the images are the wild, natural flora and fauna of the inner landscape -- which I have been given the honor of interacting with.
Hope that makes some sort of sense.

Chushel

Sorry I missed this earlier, Chushel.

I like your visual landscape of the idea a lot. The image stays free, and speaks as the oracle. Not only the image stays free, but its entire landscape remains alive.

The context is an image too, a smaller one. It is the person walking around inside the great image.

So now there are two living images, one walking around within the other. And yet there is still one who observes the small image walking around inside the great image. Is it the same great image which also sees the small, such as the reflection of the mouse in the snake's eyes? or is there a third image, which observes both the great and the small? Or, where does seeing lose the distinguished difference between seeing and being seen?
 
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chushel

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Sorry I missed this earlier, Chushel.

I like your visual landscape of the idea a lot. The image stays free, and speaks as the oracle. Not only the image stays free, but its entire landscape remains alive.

The context is an image too, a smaller one. It is the person walking around inside the great image.

So now there are two living images, one walking around within the other. And yet there is still one who observes the small image walking around inside the great image. Is it the same great image which also sees the small, such as the reflection of the mouse in the snake's eyes? or is there a third image, which observes both the great and the small? Or, where does seeing lose the distinguished difference between seeing and being seen?


Meng:

Ah yes, Indeed where? :bows:

As I read your words, the world around me trembled and blurred for a moment.
How lovely.

Chushel
 
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chushel

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Peter;
Thank you so much for allowing your paper to be published here on Clarity !
{ and also Thank you Hilary for doing so }
I downloaded your work and have been slowly reading and contemplating it.
Each time I re- read a section, it penetrates a little deeper into my psyche.
Your use of Jungian concepts { which is familiar and always useful for me ) is helping to bridge the gap in my understanding of Taoist thought { much newer territory ).

I was also delighted (and shaken) by the appearance of a synchronicity.

In this thread Meng had posted a " Koan", -- which registered as such to me and which I experienced very much through my senses.
Shortly afterward, I read on page 9 in your manuscript your footnote on Koans and again the perceptions of my immediate surroundings thinned and trembled --

It really affected me -- Both times -- A changing within.

:bows:
Cushel
 

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