Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).
I noticed that, in his commentary on these words, Kung Tse says the following: 大哉乾元 - Vast is the 'great and originating (power)' indicated by Qian! (Legge) ....
To me, it seems De Harlez and Vilá are the ones that get closer ....
.... but, as Maeterlinck puts it: ....
I always used it as oracle, but not to predict the future, but to help me see my present clearly and decide a course of action. I also read it as a philosophical and mystical book. I also read it as a moral guide towards virtue. Also as a compilation of 64 archetypes that englobe all possible situations in time. I started by the puzzles, when I was younger. I must say I actually managed to find a coherent order that actually says something and gives a good deal of new information on how hexagrams connect themselves between eachother. Nowadays, I started studying each pair of hexagrams individually, to better understand how each one of them works, and why it says what it says. Been using the Yi for about 7 years now, and I'm just getting started Anyways, if i have to define the Yi, to me it is a pool of meaning, a noble purpose, a way to embody the heavenly laws, and to act in accordance to time.I have an initial question however. I'm wondering, what is your interest in the Yijing? Are you specifically interested in using it as an oracle, to do 'readings'? Or is your interest more spiritual or philosophical? Or perhaps your interest is more intellectual, that it's a puzzle of some sort you want to solve? Or ...?
Oh, but I offered traductions in each of the cases. I quote them in their original language for more accuracy. But I did put the traductions. You have to click the blurry texts. And Kung Tse is Confucius, the author (presumably) of most of the Yi Jings commentariesAs I said, in order to respond more fully, I will await your response about your specific interest in the Yi, but in the mean time, I don't know who Kung Tse is, and I don't know if what you're writing is from him or from Legge; I don't know who De Harlex or Vila or Maeterlinck are, nor what they wrote. And I don't read nor speak German nor French (nor Chinese) so if you offer quotes or text in any of these languages, it's 'Greek to me'.
Best, D.
De Harlez was a belgian orientalist who traduced the Yi Jing to french language: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles-Joseph_de_Harlez_de_DeulinDe Harlex or Vila or Maeterlinck
Ah, interesting! You're fluent in French? I've been working quite hard on mine over the past year. I've been thinking it's about time I found a copy of the Yi in French, just to see how it reads. Would you recommend De Harlez? I'd prefer something that was translated directly from Chinese, rather than, say, from Chinese to German to French (I gather that there is a French translation of Wilhelm!). Thanks!De Harlez was a belgian orientalist who traduced the Yi Jing to french language: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles-Joseph_de_Harlez_de_Deulin
Hmmm, I'll jump in on this before anyone else does. Confucius probably didn't write most of the commentaries attributed to him, and particularly not the ones on the Yi. Probably his followers, maybe even quite a few hundred years later. But attributing the words to Confucius probably gave them greater weight and authority. You always have to be careful about taking attributions like that at face value.And Kung Tse is Confucius, the author (presumably) of most of the Yi Jings commentaries
Hi Irfank! Sadly, I'm not fluid in french. Yet nowadays google traduce can come in very handy. In "archive.org" you can access to De Harlez's Yi King.Ah, interesting! You're fluent in French?
Yes, you're right. I actually knew that, but I wrote hastily. Yet, I must ask: aren't the Tuan Zhuan commentaries on the sentence, and the Xiang Zhuan images to the hexagram and lines attributed to Confucius?Hmmm, I'll jump in on this before anyone else does. Confucius probably didn't write most of the commentaries attributed to him, and particularly not the ones on the Yi. Probably his followers, maybe even quite a few hundred years later.
Nonetheless, to my surprise, I find that the choice of words translators use ....
Thank you! Yes, I've heard that there is quite a strong tradition of French research into ancient China and the Yi, and that not all of the major works have been translated. Karcher was a French speaker, I hear, and that he drew on some of the French writings for his ideas.Again, about which version: I think De Harlez and Philastre are probably the most serious ones thrown directly to french. Haven't read philastres one, but if it is introduced by François Jullien, I confirm its value, since that man is just exquisite to read. I really recomment his book "Figures d'immanence". It opened my eyes on so many things about the Yi.
Yes, you're right. I actually knew that, but I wrote hastily. Yet, I must ask: aren't the Tuan Zhuan commentaries on the sentence, and the Xiang Zhuan images to the hexagram and lines attributed to Confucius?
This really sums it up!None of all this matters much. If it's a good idea, it's a good idea, it doesn't matter exactly who or when. That's just part of the story.
I look for Vipassana in google and the first thing I see is:Vipassana meditation, too: (we) practitioners like to say that we have rediscovered Gautama's original teachings -- but we're kidding ourselves, really. There isn't any evidence that it was practiced until quite late in the 19th century.
About this, I do differ, since Confucius is pronounced Kung Tse in chinese, which doesn't has that much of a phonetic resemblance with Fu Xi.this is really important, you better listen. Fu Xi. Confucius.
This made me laughthey were getting absolutely bombed by all the yoga teachers and practitioners who were listening,
Hey D!J, two quick questions (if you don't mind):
* You show images of seal and oracle bone script characters. Where did you find these? Are they from Richard Sears' Chinesec Etymology website?
I do think so. That is why the Yi always renews my faith. And I don't need to know either why or how it works. It just does. I do have some suppositions, but they are not provable. I do think it works as a mirror.My sense is there is an aspect of mystery or magic (or something similar) when I use the Yi as an oracle - e.g. pose a query, toss coins, receive an answer. Very simply (and I don't need details), do you generally think this is so?
No, sorry, I didn't mean that they were meant to be the same person. Just that they were both acclaimed as great sages whom you could say were responsible for all sorts of "ancient" teachings.About this, I do differ, since Confucius is pronounced Kung Tse in chinese, which doesn't has that much of a phonetic resemblance with Fu Xi.
Oh, no, i though you were showing me a phonetic coincidence between conFUCIus and Fu Xi! I know you didn't mean to identify them both as the same personNo, sorry, I didn't mean that they were meant to be the same person. Just that they were both acclaimed as great sages whom you could say were responsible for all sorts of "ancient" teachings.
Translating 元 as "fundamental" .... Kung Tse doesn't use the character 元 as "great", but instead as "origin".
Vipassana meditation, too: (we) practitioners like to say that we have rediscovered Gautama's original teachings -- but we're kidding ourselves, really. There isn't any evidence that it was practiced until quite late in the 19th century.
Well I must say Bradford does have a point. This is a very good way to put it!"The greatest rewards are the result of sustained hard work."
And yes, of course i know this, i was answering a misunderstanding with the previous commentary, precisely based on the fact you mention.An example of this is your comments about the "phonetic coincidence" between conFUCIus and FuXi!
Could you explain this a bit further?I work with the imagery of all of these.
I also think Wilhelms approach is deeper ....
Work with the imagery: Could you explain this a bit further?
it all revolves around the type of reading one desires to do of the book,
what (are) your goal or goals here?
Perhaps you are just exploring ... translations of different Chinese characters (i.e. the character 元 , or 'yuan')? Or are you wanting to arrive at a definitive, - or accurate, correct, perfect - translation of the first phrase of the Yi, "Yuan Heng Li Zhen"? Or do you have some other goals in mind?
Work with the imagery: Could you explain this a bit further?
.... you are discussing what 元 and other words 'mean' in terms of the various translations into other languages; in other words, you are not really looking at what Fuxi, or Confucius, or Lao Tzu, or the other ancient sages and diviners are saying, or what their actual meanings are; instead, you are looking at what other's are saying about what the Chinese characters mean (or meant) and in most cases, these are translations from Europeans and people from the Americas ....
J, if I were to pick out the most important point I've made, I'd say it's this, below. This doesn't mean you shouldn't explore as you've been doing, but just keep in mind, you are reading and responding to translations and interpretations - which are quite varied, and can be of inconsistent quality.
The whole inquiry was born out of the fact that in the sentence commentary, attributed, presumably, to Kung Tse (CONFUCIUS), uses the character 元 and 大 in the same sentence, which means he doesn't use 元 as "great", as many translators do, but instead uses 大 to express "vast, great". This led me to ask myself if the translations of "YUAN" as "GREAT" were actually accurate or not.What I notice here, is that Kung Tse doesn't use the character 元 as "great", but instead as "origin". He uses the character 大 to indicate greatness. I checked Lao Tse chapter XXV, and I find he (or them) use the same character (大), to express greatness, yet no sign of 元.
This is actually a brilliant, very creative way of interpreting a hexagrams form. I see you mostly work, as you said, with trigrams meaning. I tend to see more at positions and lines, and how they operate. Its very passionate to find out different techniques, and to be able to learn from eachothers. I hope we can further exchange knowledge of this sort. I'd say, maybe your technique is more "semantic"? More based in symbols and its meanings? Mine, which I'm still developing, but my intuition leads me that way, is based on the base nature of positions and lines, how they interact, how they come and go, how they exchange places, where they do this, etc.Oh, and this came to mind too: a (perhaps quirky) response to the question, what should I serve for dinner?
I agree in not making those absolute distinctions. And I too am not comfortable with questions about the future. I just search for answers in and for the here and now, as anchor points of which i can cling to make a correct decision. Also, to see how the trends are, and not opposing them if not urgent.I don't create such cut-and-dry distinctions. I think oracles answer our questions, period - though I tend to shy away from questions asking about the future.
to share, exchange and discuss these matters, in order to learn of different viewpoints than mine.I'm not clear what your goal or goals are here?
indeed, it does contain all the world, according to the dazhuanit already contains all of that.
Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).