Indagations and correspondences concerning Yuan Heng Li Zhen

[Plutonian]

I'm starting to approach the Yi Jing from the original text in chinese. I do not know the details of chinese language and i'm leaning on online chinese dictionaries as, fundamentally https://dictionary.writtenchinese.com. I'd appreciate any alternative sources to give more insight on the ideograms and their various meanings.
I've used some good amount of time in reflecting about the formula 元。亨。利。貞 (Yuan. Heng. Li. Zhen.) I've read different interpretations, traductions and approaches to these sentences, and yet i don't find them to be completely satisfying.
I have some questions to raise about these four words, but first I would like to solve a technical problem.

1. ¿Are the meanings in the online dictionaries to be fully trusted, or are they limited and scarce, not covering the real amplitude of a characters meanings?
I ask this because of the character 貞, Heng. In the dictionary i mentioned earlier, it is traduced as "chaste". Some combinations that include the word gives birth to meanings such as "chastity, virginity", aswell as "faithful, loyal to the end", or "moral integrity, constancy", etc. To my eyes, these meanings are actually pretty accurate, and at least insinuates the underlying meaning of "perseverance", which is the usual translation of this word. Yet, i don't find the word to be translate as "perseverance" in this dictionary i'm using by its own, only when combined with other characters. That is what makes me wonder if the dictionary is accurate or not.

2. ¿Is it possible to conceive the four words as the four distinct qualities of Qian, Heaven?
I don't know how punctuation works in chinese, but my inmediate understanding of punctuation is to delimitate a certain composite unit of signification made out of words. And if a single word is followed by a point, i understand that it should be read by its own, that the signification is in the word itself and not in the combination of the word that follows the separating point. Obviously, on another level, one can consider the four words in three ways: 1. by themselves; 2. as pairs (creation and conservation according to Wilhelm) 3. as a whole. Same thing with hexagrams, which can be separated in single lines, in pairs, in trigrams and as a unity.

3. ¿Could "chaste" be a new, completely viable traduction of 貞, and a quality of Heaven?
Chastity can be understood, conceptually, as "that which hasn't been penetrated". It is pretty accurate if one thinks about it, since the Qian hexagram is the only one composed exclusively by strong, closed, firm, advancing yang lines. ¿How could we grasp "nowness"? As soon as we try to lay hands on it, it has already changed. So, it actually is inviolable. Which reminds us of the the christian mistery of the virginal motherhood of Mary. A paradox, which doesn't seems as paradoxical if we use our reason, but basing it in the root. "Who, after finding the childs, finds the mother, is always secure" (Tao Te King). ¿How couldn't he be? Campbell states it in better terms than I: "Oriental sages have their feet rooted in mistery." The root is a pure-positive-inviolable mistery. And since its essence is mistery, and it is, as Ein Soph, "the unknoweable", it is vain to try and solve it as if it was some sort of intellectual, dualistic problem to be answered. It is the cause of all questions, it is The Question, and as so, it seems useful to try and become the mistery, instead of trying to resolve it in terms of "what it is", if it is "good or bad", if it is "this or that". Neti-Neti. So, based on this, traducing the last word as "pure", "without stain", "a pure substance without mixture", namely the Dao or Great Flow, namely, Time, or Change, a process that knows no stopping itself, seems rather correct.

4. ¿Could we trace an analogy between the Tetragrammaton and the four sentences of Heaven?
I haven't dived too far in the nuances of the Yod - He - Vau - He mistery, but i do find some parallelism between both. I won't extend myself too much on this point, but, if there is a sacred Science, a true metaphysical knowledge, which i undoubtedly think there is, it is reasonable to think that different cultures expressed the same conclusiones under different symbols. I'm only proposing this as a possibility and i would love to hear your feedback.0

Thanks for reading my post, i hope to participate a lot more in this forum.
Julián

Note: All texts cited were cited out of memory and personal traduction, since i read my texts in spanish, so ¡I excuse myself if they were unaccurate!

 

[Liselle]

Have you found Harmen Mesker's translation notes, which is a work in progress? He wrote a whole pdf about heng.

- Start here: https://www.yjcn.nl/wp/translation-notes/
- Then follow the first link, "About Tuan 彖 and Hexagram 1, Judgment and lines 1-4"
- Then you'll find the pdf download link at the bottom of the section labelled "Tuan." (The sentence, "For the origin of yuan heng li zhen 元亨利貞 see this article.)

 

[Liselle]

(Since you're posting here on Clarity, have you found what Hilary's written about it?

Using the search box in the banner -

(hover over the magnifying glass)

- type in "yuan heng li zhen" both enclosed in quotes and not. You'll get lists of her blog articles. It's not guaranteed that every result will hit the bulls-eye, but some of them will - I know she's written about that phrase.)

 

[dfreed]

4. ¿Could we trace an analogy between the Tetragrammaton and the four sentences of Heaven?

As I understand it, the Tetragrammaton is the four-letter Hebrew word for the name of the god of Israel, now often transcribed and pronounced 'Yahweh'. And I assume it is also the ancient Hebrew word for the god that is found in Islam and Christianity.

In contrast, "yuan heng li zhen" is a four character Chinese phrase or sentence that doesn't mention a god or any gods or deities.

Written Hebrew uses letters to make up words; Chinese uses characters and doesn't contain individual letters. I don't see any 'analogy' or similarities between the two, though I can imagine Christian missionaries applying Christian meanings and associations to "sublime success, furthering through perseverance" - an English translation, based on Han-era (and later) meanings of these four characters.

 

[dfreed]

2. ¿Is it possible to conceive the four words as the four distinct qualities of Qian, Heaven?

It is certainly possible to conceive of these four words - yuan heng li zhen - as you wish. However, I don't believe this is how they were conceived of in Zhou-era China, because:

* 'Heaven' is only one of many translations and interpretations for Qian, the name or title for hexagram 1. Others are 'The Creative', 'Focus', 'Active', 'Pure Yang', 'The Dynamic', The Firm' ....

* Some translations don't describe 'four qualities' at all - instead, based on our understanding of archaic, Zhou-era Chinese, 'yuan heng li zhen' has also been read (translated):

- Greatly accepted offering. Favourable to divine.
- Supreme offering. Favourable augury.
- Your primary plea is heard. A good omen.

* Similarly, in the article Liselle references above, Harmen Mesker writes:

The phrase 'yuan heng li zhen' suggests that the Zhouyi [the earliest part of the Yijing] was used after (an) offering and before the act of divination. (This) may sound odd, because the Zhouyi itself is an oracle. But we know ... that milfoil oracles (which the Zhouyi supposedly is) and oracle bones, or tortoise divination, were used simultaneously.

This suggests to me that 'yuan heng li zhen' can also be understood as a directive to do oracle bone divination - perhaps to complete or confirm Zhouyi (Yijing) divination; or as a simple acknowledgement that the ancestors approved of the query that was put to them.

* Besides being only one of many possible transcribed 'names' for Hex. 1, the early (and even up through the current) Chinese concept of 'Heaven' is far different than what we find in Christianity, Islam and Judaism.

I understand it more as the mythic, astronomical 'dome' realm above the Earth, where the stars, planets, dragons, ancestors and gods (plural) and other deities (plural) reside; whereas, the ancestors, gods, dragons, deities and many other (myriad) beings also live here on earth, along with mountains, lakes, rivers, wind and thunder ....

So, 'yuan heng li zhen' - as either a group of qualities, or a phrase or sentence - can be applied to all three of the traditional 'san cai' or Three Realms:
* Earth,
* the realm of humans and the myriad beings,
* and the creative sky dome realm.

Regards, d.

 

[dfreed]

1. ¿Are the meanings in the online dictionaries to be fully trusted, or are they limited and scarce, not covering the real amplitude of a characters meanings?

I dont think online Chinese (to English or Spanish) dictionaries can be trusted much for translating the Yi, because:

* The Zhouyi, the earliest part of the Yi, was likely written 2,800-2,900 years ago and the commentaries were likely added over the following 4-8 centuries (or thereabouts). The archaic or ancient, or Zhou-era Chinese which the Zhouyi was written in is thought to be quite different from modern Chinese.

* How the Yi had been thought of and used has changed: it has it's roots as an oracle that later was considered a book of wisdom - and with changes in use comes changes in language and meaning.

* The syntax, language and sentence structure of Chinese verses English and other European languages is very different. Also, I think that there are many words or phrases in the Yi that carry mythic, poetic, and/or metaphorical meaning which may not always 'translate' well.

* If you read some of the so-called 'modernist' translators (Rutt, Field, Mesker, etc.) they discuss the use of variant and loan characters, and the importance of character placement and context, along with translations based on early character meanings.

Given all this, I don't see how an online dictionary - or any dictionary really - can accurately 'translate' the Yi. You can end up with a translation but perhaps not one that accurately reflects or offers us the earlier (or intended) meanings of the Yi.

All that said, the proof of the pudding is in the tasting - so perhaps you should try translating the Yi and see what get. You may also be interested in Bradford Hatcher's 2-part Yijing. The second volume includes his 'matrix translation' where he gives (sometimes quite a few) 'glosses' or English words for each Chinese character.

 

[IrfanK]

@Plutonian , I don't think you're ever going to get a definitive answer to this one. Almost every single writer, academic and otherwise, on the Yi spends a fair bit of time on this question, and none of them ever really agree with each other. You aren't going to find the right answer, although you might find one that satisfies you.

Some of the academic writers see the words as referring to establishing a connection with the ancestors. For example, since I've got Freeman Crouch next to me, he translates it as "Spirit. Grand offering. Favorable? Make a reading." All about a preliminary ritual, to establish the connection that enables the querent to proceed to the inquiry.

A lot of the later commentaries associate each word with a cardinal point and many other attributes, often with great cosmic significance for each of the words. It's pretty doubtful that they had that significance when they were first coined, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the later commentaries are without value. The meaning of words can evolve. I like to think that the Yi changes and evolves with human consciousness -- it would be pretty ironic, really, if the meaning of the Yi didn't change, considering the basic premise of the book is that everything does.

Hilary's done a lot on it. Good stuff. But after you read it, you'll probably come away with even less answers and even fewer questions than when you started.

 

[Plutonian]

First of all, thanks to all for answering, it is good to debate these matters with all of you.

Have you found Harmen Mesker's translation notes, which is a work in progress? He wrote a whole pdf about heng.

Hi Liselle! I'll be looking at it as soon as i can, and I'll also check Hilary's work on it. Thank you very much.

As I understand it, the Tetragrammaton is the four-letter Hebrew word for the name of the god of Israel, now often transcribed and pronounced 'Yahweh'. And I assume it is also the ancient Hebrew word for the god that is found in Islam and Christianity.

In contrast, "yuan heng li zhen" is a four character Chinese phrase or sentence that doesn't mention a god or any gods or deities.

Written Hebrew uses letters to make up words; Chinese uses characters and doesn't contain individual letters. I don't see any 'analogy' or similarities between the two, though I can imagine Christian missionaries applying Christian meanings and associations to "sublime success, furthering through perseverance" - an English translation, based on Han-era (and later) meanings of these four characters.

1. About the Tetragrammaton, I'd like to leave a link to Papus's Tarot of the Bohemians, where he talks of the qualities of each one of the letters. I revisited it, and there is no obvious analogy, but at least for "yuan" and "yod" there actually is, as both mean "origin, head, first, principle".

Papus - Tarot of the Bohemians

2. As far as the conception of divinity as a personal god or as an impersonal process, I really think what truely differs, as Jung tells in Psychological Types, is the underlying, archetypical way of thinking: some conceive lots of gods, some a personal god, some no god, some an impersonal divinity... but all of them conceive something bigger.
3. About the linguistic aspect, we are pretty separated by it, and there is an obvious difference in the way of thinking of the west and of the east, based primarily on the type of language each part of the globe has. Eastern writing is much more based on separated but very meaningful symbols, pictorical ones, visual concepts, i guess, in its origins, that stem from trying to encompass the whole nature in a writing system, while occident bases its writing on phonetic units with no meaning by themselves, of which words are composed. But that doesn't mean that each letter, as for each number, cannot be considered as a symbol by itself. Hebrew letters are considered to have distinct meanings, and they actually are pretty close to hieroglyphical writing, both in time and location, which brings it closer to what chinese characters conceptually are. what i try to say, is that "yahweh" is called tetragrammaton because it is composed of "tetra" (four) "gramma" (words). Esotericism has speculated on the meaning of these, as chinese thought has speculated on the meaning of the four words of Qian.

(i'll continue later, i'm getting late for work)

 

[Plutonian]

It is certainly possible to conceive of these four words - yuan heng li zhen - as you wish. However, I don't believe this is how they were conceived of in Zhou-era China, because:

* 'Heaven' is only one of many translations and interpretations for Qian, the name or title for hexagram 1. Others are 'The Creative', 'Focus', 'Active', 'Pure Yang', 'The Dynamic', The Firm' ....

* Some translations don't describe 'four qualities' at all - instead, based on our understanding of archaic, Zhou-era Chinese, 'yuan heng li zhen' has also been read (translated):

- Greatly accepted offering. Favourable to divine.
- Supreme offering. Favourable augury.
- Your primary plea is heard. A good omen.

* Similarly, in the article Liselle references above, Harmen Mesker writes:

The phrase 'yuan heng li zhen' suggests that the Zhouyi [the earliest part of the Yijing] was used after (an) offering and before the act of divination. (This) may sound odd, because the Zhouyi itself is an oracle. But we know ... that milfoil oracles (which the Zhouyi supposedly is) and oracle bones, or tortoise divination, were used simultaneously.

This suggests to me that 'yuan heng li zhen' can also be understood as a directive to do oracle bone divination - perhaps to complete or confirm Zhouyi (Yijing) divination; or as a simple acknowledgement that the ancestors approved of the query that was put to them.

* Besides being only one of many possible transcribed 'names' for Hex. 1, the early (and even up through the current) Chinese concept of 'Heaven' is far different than what we find in Christianity, Islam and Judaism.

I understand it more as the mythic, astronomical 'dome' realm above the Earth, where the stars, planets, dragons, ancestors and gods (plural) and other deities (plural) reside; whereas, the ancestors, gods, dragons, deities and many other (myriad) beings also live here on earth, along with mountains, lakes, rivers, wind and thunder ....

So, 'yuan heng li zhen' - as either a group of qualities, or a phrase or sentence - can be applied to all three of the traditional 'san cai' or Three Realms:
* Earth,
* the realm of humans and the myriad beings,
* and the creative sky dome realm.

Regards, d.

Well, Yuan Kuang affirms there are 7 different ways of reading the Yi Jing, so i guess that speaks of its amplitude of meaning.

1. You are correct on Heaven being only one possible translation, but I am not basing myself exclusively on that translation, I guess it just comes to mind more recurrently than others, and that's why I used it. But I take "heaven" as a symbol; symbol understood as a "tree trunk" with many "branches" of meaning. I do think that the Qian hexagram is pretty self explanatory through its symbolism. Nonetheless, "the creative" is, as far as my philosophical understanding goes, one of the most appropriate names for it, and the original translation of "Schöpferige", that Wilhelm uses, word that also means "productive" and "fertile".
I really like the work of Francois Jullien on the philosophical and moral nuances of Qian, and strongly recommend it. Francois Jullien - Figures de l'immanence

2. About the omen translation, I have to dive deeper into it, but I do know it is one of the latest, more accepted translation of the four lettered formula. Vilá also traduces it as a sacrificial/offering formula, which, even though it can be more accurate literally and historically, it loses, to me, some of the profundity more abstract, philosophical translations offer. I liked your phrase: "a simple acknowledgement that the ancestors approved of the query that was put to them"; seems to me a rather good way of finding meaning to a sacrificial formula. I'll hold that.

3. I very much enjoyed your description of the san cai. The tripartition of the world is common to many cultures. I recommend you look into the native incaican worldview, for more references on the same concept: Uku Pacha, Kay Pacha, Hanan Pacha. The Kabbalah also has, in it's tree of life, a partition of the world: Atziluth, Beriyah, Yetzirah, Assiah. Yet some authors consider only three worlds to be considered, since the world of Atziluth trascends the personal realm.

Some versions of the Pachas also add a fourth world, Hakaq Pacha, the world of spirits.
The same we see in the Macro, we can see in the Micro: "As Above, so Below", namely, the Head (thought), the Torax (emotion), and Extremities (action). The fourth realm would be Spirit. Again, Spirit trascends the personal, and is thus not considered in the partition, as happens with Atziluth.
Wilhelm also tells us, in Qian hexagram, that we should always have two interpretation: one applied to the cosmic workings, and another one applied to human context: Macrocosm and Microcosm.
Also, in the Tetragrammaton, as explained by Papus, the repetition of He, tells us that the divine name is actually only composed by 3 letters, with one of them repeting itself, so 3+1.
The same works for advaita vedanta, where we learn that we have three worlds, and a fourth, which would be the observer, unaffected by the other three: waking state, dreaming state, deep dreamless state.
Applying all of this to the Yuan Heng Li Zhen issue, we get, as Wilhelm tells us, that "Yuan is Love, which, as a fundamental value, traverses the other three". In the same way, we can conceive three sons and one father (3+1), and three daughters and one mother (3+1) among the trigrams. The sons and daughters are but modalities of the father and mother, which represent the absolute yin and yang, which doesn't exist in this realm we live in, for we cannot conceive the existance of something absolute, unless it pervades and englobes all the different aspects of reality. So, Pan (All) - Theos (Divine) seems a good starting point, namely, the Tai Ji (corresponding to Kether, from my personal point of view, in the tree of life).

"It is I who am the light which is above them all. It is I who am the all. From me did the all come forth, and unto me did the all extend. Split a piece of wood, and I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."

-Gospel of Thomas

(i'll continue later)

 

[dfreed]

Well, Yuan Kuang affirms there are 7 different ways of reading the Yi Jing ....

Whom is Yuan Kuang? And is her 'affirmation' of these "seven ways" actual or historic fact? Or is it possible that we can interpret this affirmation to mean something more like, "I think there are seven ways that I like to read the Yi"?

 

[Plutonian]

I dont think online Chinese (to English or Spanish) dictionaries can be trusted much for translating the Yi, because:

* The Zhouyi, the earliest part of the Yi, was likely written 2,800-2,900 years ago and the commentaries were likely added over the following 4-8 centuries (or thereabouts). The archaic or ancient, or Zhou-era Chinese which the Zhouyi was written in is thought to be quite different from modern Chinese.

* How the Yi had been thought of and used has changed: it has it's roots as an oracle that later was considered a book of wisdom - and with changes in use comes changes in language and meaning.

* The syntax, language and sentence structure of Chinese verses English and other European languages is very different. Also, I think that there are many words or phrases in the Yi that carry mythic, poetic, and/or metaphorical meaning which may not always 'translate' well.

* If you read some of the so-called 'modernist' translators (Rutt, Field, Mesker, etc.) they discuss the use of variant and loan characters, and the importance of character placement and context, along with translations based on early character meanings.

Given all this, I don't see how an online dictionary - or any dictionary really - can accurately 'translate' the Yi. You can end up with a translation but perhaps not one that accurately reflects or offers us the earlier (or intended) meanings of the Yi.

All that said, the proof of the pudding is in the tasting - so perhaps you should try translating the Yi and see what get. You may also be interested in Bradford Hatcher's 2-part Yijing. The second volume includes his 'matrix translation' where he gives (sometimes quite a few) 'glosses' or English words for each Chinese character.

On this I¡ll answer rather shortly. Yes, you're absolutely right. I do think though, that the Yi has its true meaning based in the laws that underlie it. It is mathematical perfection at it's core, that cannot be denied, for the same book has a lot of it in its commentaries. So, i think the commentaries, as the Wings state (can't remember where i read this): "the meanings of the sentences will be made clear for the right person". I should look this phrase up and correct my cite though. Given this, I strongly believe that any person that actually reflects on the laws of nature, taking off Isis veil, might just find the true meaning hidden beneath many sentences, even though its cultural, mythological and historical specificities.
But i do thank you about the dictionary thing. Even though many dictionaries try and recollect traditional chinese characters meanings, many of them is probably lost. But careful reflection and meditation might just get to the same point, collectively, where the old sages got.

 

[dfreed]

I do think that the Qian hexagram is pretty self explanatory through its symbolism

I've never found this or any of the Hexagrams to be 'self-explanatory'. I am, however, able to make use of them once I learned about them and studied them. But otherwise six lines stacked one upon the other just looks like a stack of six lines - and nothing in that stack makes it 'self-evident' that its about heaven or the creative, or dragons or any particular four Hebrew letters which when put together mean something (in Hebrew).

 

[Plutonian]

Whom is Yuan Kuang? And is her 'affirmation' of these "seven ways" actual or historic fact? Or is it possible that we can interpret this affirmation to mean something more like, "I think there are seven ways that I like to read the Yi"?

Honestly, it is very difficult to find any information on him online. This is the best I managed to find: Methode d'adivination par le Yiking.

 

[dfreed]

I take "heaven" as a symbol; symbol understood as a "tree trunk" with many "branches" of meaning.

Along with not ascribing 'heavenly' meaning to Hex. 1, I have never thought of heaven nor the first hexagram as being associated with trees and branches. But from your words I see that it is possible for someone to do this; I just don't find that this way of seeing 'heaven' adds to my understanding of the Yi - but perhaps in time I might.

About the omen translation, I have to dive deeper into it, but I do know it is one of the latest, more accepted translation of the four lettered formula.

Again, there are no 'letters' used in Chinese; what we have here are four characters (or words), not letters, nor a 'formula' - or at least that's my understanding.

 

[Plutonian]

Along with not ascribing 'heavenly' meaning to Hex. 1, I have never thought of heaven nor the first hexagram as being associated with trees and branches...

Again, there are no 'letters' used in Chinese...

i was speaking about the symbol, not about Qian.
i said "four lettered" as a means of referring to the four chinese characters.

I've never found this or any of the Hexagrams to be 'self-explanatory'. I am, however, able to make use of them once I learned about them and studied them. But otherwise six lines stacked one upon the other just looks like a stack of six lines - and nothing in that stack makes it 'self-evident' that its about heaven or the creative, or dragons or any particular four Hebrew letters which when put together mean something (in Hebrew).

we are speaking in the context of students of the yi jing. i wouldn't pretend to stack six lines on top of eachother in front of a random person and just hope for them to discover Qian, if they haven't read the Yi Jing in their lifetime. six positive lines is, by extension, positivity. Thats whay I mean with "self-explanatory".

Whom is Yuan Kuang? And is her 'affirmation' of these "seven ways" actual or historic fact? Or is it possible that we can interpret this affirmation to mean something more like, "I think there are seven ways that I like to read the Yi"?

i'll correct myself in this one: in the introduction to the book, Charles Canone and Tschu Hua write that "according to daoists, there are seven different ways of reading the yijing". No need for historicity on a phrase that simply states the diversity of interpretations one can make on a single thing. And about the "i think" you add, i'll just say i don't believe in absolute relativism and subjectivism since it is, by itself, a contradiction in terms. Not everything is doxa.

 

[Plutonian]

@Plutonian , I don't think you're ever going to get a definitive answer to this one. Almost every single writer, academic and otherwise, on the Yi spends a fair bit of time on this question, and none of them ever really agree with each other. You aren't going to find the right answer, although you might find one that satisfies you.

Some of the academic writers see the words as referring to establishing a connection with the ancestors. For example, since I've got Freeman Crouch next to me, he translates it as "Spirit. Grand offering. Favorable? Make a reading." All about a preliminary ritual, to establish the connection that enables the querent to proceed to the inquiry.

A lot of the later commentaries associate each word with a cardinal point and many other attributes, often with great cosmic significance for each of the words. It's pretty doubtful that they had that significance when they were first coined, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the later commentaries are without value. The meaning of words can evolve. I like to think that the Yi changes and evolves with human consciousness -- it would be pretty ironic, really, if the meaning of the Yi didn't change, considering the basic premise of the book is that everything does.

Hilary's done a lot on it. Good stuff. But after you read it, you'll probably come away with even less answers and even fewer questions than when you started.

I really think so too! Historically at least, things are deeply submerged in the fogs of time and change. About them not agreeing between them, well, ¡a problem that stems from old times! And yes, i guess there is not one "right" answer, but there are many "left" answers . At some point, anyways, i think one has to try and go beyond the historic rigor of the text, since the symbols transcend words, and are a strange language in themselves, that few of us understand quite fully. Plus, i think, at some point, even if the translation is bad, it can help us see things we hadn't seen earlier. As my mother usually says: even a broken clock is correct twice a day. What is certain, is that: "the Dao that can be put into words, is not the eternal Dao." I've tried to fulfill all the meanings of Qian, and i ended up understanding that not having a limit is precisely one of the main characteristics of Qian. According to the pair of oposites Ti - Yong, or Body and Function, Qian has a Function but no Body, and Kun has a Body but no Function. In other terms, the Function of the earth is not to have a specific Function; the Body of heaven is not to have a specific Body. This explains much of the Creative - Receptive dialectic.
About the evolution of the Yi Jing in time... mathematics don't change in time. They stay the same, or at least they change in such a slow and imperceptible way, that we couldn't notice these changes in ten thousand lifetimes. What does change, is that which is shown. So, the words can vary, but the the essential meaning, which is englobed by words, stays the same. In other words: i could say Time, Creative or Qian. The word will change, it will evolve, it will either perfect itself or decay, as the leaves of a tree. But that which is symbolized in these words, which can only be felt, encountered in a place of silence, that is unchangeable. So, since there are no absolutes in reality, there has to be something that changes, and something that doesn't change. In a way, one could say that the unchangeable is change itself.

 

[dfreed]

we are speaking in the context of students of the yi jing. i wouldn't pretend to stack six lines on top of each other in front of a random person and just hope for them to discover Qian, if they haven't read the Yi Jing in their lifetime. six positive lines is, by extension, positivity.

I get what you're saying. I often try to present my ideas as if whomever is reading my post is not familiar at all with the Yi (though I might not be successful at it all the time) - which is also why I repeat things I've said in other posts. And it seems we agree that just showing someone six stacked lines has no sense of 'positivity' to it.

i was speaking about the symbol, not about Qian.

But the four words are not symbols either, except that Chinese is a logosyllabic writing system, where written characters represent words (and not letters); however, the Qian figure, or hexagram is a symbol, just one that may not necessarily be 'self-evident'.

in the introduction to the book, Charles Canone and Tschu Hua write that "according to daoists, there are seven different ways of reading the yijing".

I don't know which book you are referring to. However, looking at Richard Smith's 'The I Ching: a biography' (which I'm currently reading), and 'A companion to Yi Jing Numerology and Cosmology' by Bent Nielsen, we see that there are dozens - or even hundreds - of ways of interpreting (or 'reading') the Yi.

Bradford Hatcher suggests that there are perhaps more ways of 'reading' or interpreting the Yi yet to be discovered. In my case, I have at least one way of interpreting the Yi and one way of casting that are both totally unique, as far as I know (I have applied for patents for both).

Giving your interest and knowledge about these various other hermetic and mystic systems and beliefs, I'd expect that you might come up with a few of your own unique ways of reading or seeing or interpreting the Yi.

i don't believe in absolute relativism and subjectivism

I'm not familiar with those term, but 'doing my own research' (as I'm so often told I need to do these days), I read that:

Relativism is the claim that knowledge, truth and morality exist in relation to culture or society and that there are no universal truths, while subjectivism is the claim that knowledge is merely subjective and that there is no external or objective truth.

I'm still not sure what to make of all that, and I'm not sure what it has to do with interpreting the Yi, but ....

I believe there is no absolute right or correct way of working with the Yi, that works for everyone. I do think there are some shared common themes and imagery - but these are not always interpreted in the same way.

For example, there is a person who infrequently visits these forums; my objection is not that he is stating his beliefs or that he believes them, but that he thinks his belief system is absolutely correct and he will not accept any 'evidence' to the contrary. This I do object to - as do many others here.

I also don't much like - nor rely upon - people taking myth or a personal or even cultural or religious belief and turning it into accurate, historic 'fact'. Briefly reading the "Tarot of the Bohemians" I feel this is what Gérard Encausse (a.k.a. Papus) does: he discusses a divination system, Tarot, in mystical and mythical ways, and he uses myths and his mystical beliefs about the 'Ancient Hebrews' - and how they gave numeric and spiritual meaning to letters, etc. to explain and justify what he's saying;. I believe these sort of ideas came out of Jewish Mysticism from 13th Century AD Europe, and are not from the ancient Hebrews, (nor the ancient Egyptians, or Mayans, or Druids ....)

This reminds me of when I was a kid and my family would go on vacation. We'd come to a town and my mom (who usually did not succumb to advertising) would want to eat at the cafes that had 'Home Cooking' written in neon in their windows; I never got a chance to talk to her about it, but I suspect that by now she's probably figured out that giving something a name or title does not immediately make it so - just as creating a myth based on your belief system doesn't instantly make it historically real or accurate. (I've seen this played out in current American politics as well, where people think that by calling a bogus, made-up thing an 'Audit' they automatically imbibe it with truth and authority! So too with myth and 'meaning' regarding oracles and divination.)

Similarly, I believe (as the Great Wiki God tells us) that "scholarly research has demonstrated that tarot cards were invented in northern Italy in the 15th century and confirmed that there is no historical evidence of the usage of tarot for divination before the late 18th century". So, Tarot clearly uses ancient symbolism, but it is not itself an ancient divination system.

This gets to the power - or function - of Myth. I can accept the myth that Fuxi and his wife (and sister) Nuwa - whom had human faces and serpent-like bodies - were the (our?) first ancestors and that they gave us valuable cultural tools and even had a hand in creating the Yi, etc.

But I am not so warm and fuzzy when it comes to people saying (without evidence) that these are actual, historical figures .... I mean, who wants their great, great, great .... grandparents to be half-snake and to be brother and sister? (e.g. Cersei and Jaime Lannister for all you Game of Thrones fans!) - that's just creepy!

Best, D

 

[dfreed]

the Yi has its true meaning based in the laws that underlie it. It is mathematical perfection at it's core, that cannot be denied, for the same book has a lot of it in its commentaries.

I don't know what these 'laws' are that you are telling us about ??? I don't remember anything in the Zhouyi about 'laws'. I don't think of the Yi in terms of mathematics - perfect or otherwise. I don't usually think of numbers, unless I find them in the text, as in "two simple earthen bowls" or "three guests arrive uninvited" or where the Yi mentions one or more of the four directions; east, west, north, south - though I suspect using numbers may be involved in some of the many ways that we can 'read' the Yi.

For example, the Nanjing (Nanking) Rules assign familiar numeric values to the four kinds of lines, 6, 7, 8, 9; these are added up for a casting and then subtracted from 55, and the remainder then tells us which line or hexagram statement (only one, very rarely two) that we should use for our divination. (I suspect that by 'numbers' some people mean something related or akin to 'numerology'?)

And, I can, in fact, 'deny' (metaphorically or spiritually) this 'perfection' of which you speak, since I find quite a bit of 'imperfection' or things that are less than perfect in the Yi:

... submerged dragons; dragons without heads; wheels falling off wagons, bunching and bucking, horse carts a' rumbling; a tied-up piglet (omen of danger and illness); pigs covered in mud and a cartload of ghosts; the king’s minister who stumbles and falls; "they cut up the bed, together with his skin"; captives among the lowborn men; "loaded backs, luring bandits" .... the list of less-than perfect things in the Yi is extensive.

Best, D

 

[dfreed]

I strongly believe that any person that actually reflects on the laws of nature, taking off Isis veil, might just find the true meaning hidden beneath many sentences, even though its cultural, mythological and historical specificities.

Again, I don't know which 'laws' you're referring to - or where we find them in either the Zhouyi or the later text, but you are likely correct that if we apply ourselves, and have good resources we can rely upon, and put in our time - we can learn to work with the Yi in useful and meaningful ways. And given all this, you're original question, "Are the meanings in the online dictionaries to be fully trusted?" might be less important, (or even entirely mote, or simply mean they are just another possible tool in our learning toolkit)?

 

[dfreed]

"according to daoists, there are seven different ways of reading the yijing"

This morning I got an email from the American Association of Retired Persons (AARP) titled, "7 New Tax Brackets for 2022". Coincidence, a happy accident, or synchronicity?

 

[Plutonian]

But the four words are not symbols either

I'm definately not expressing myself correctly. I mean, I am talking about the concept of "symbol". A symbol is like "a tree trunk of meaning", with many "branches". The branches would be the many words one can use to get close to that meaning. The tree trunk is impossible to be put in a single word for too long. Words are like shells, they pass away and new ones come. Qian, The Creative, Force, Power, The Dynamic, Yang, Positivity, etc. Non of them is absolute.

we see that there are dozens - or even hundreds - of ways of interpreting (or 'reading') the Yi.

Again, there are infinite ways to say a single thing. The question is, if it is practical to work with infinite posibilities in a concrete matter. One could speak of 4.096 "dodecagrams", for example, yet we have 64 hexagrams. One can speak of a million ways of reading the I Ching, yet, according to this introduction, some daoist says there are at least 7 ways of reading it. One can say a certain "tree trunk of meaning" can have infinite branches, yet at this point in time, there are not infinite branches. Infinity is useful to be considered as something potential, yet not as something that can be dealt with. ¡How could we, finite beings in space and time, reduce infinity! The word "infinity" is already troubling.

In my case, I have at least one way of interpreting the Yi and one way of casting that are both totally unique, as far as I know (I have applied for patents for both).

Would love to hear about it! And I won't patent it before you do don't worry

I'm still not sure what to make of all that, and I'm not sure what it has to do with interpreting the Yi

I say this because you said: "could it be interpreted as i think there are 7 ways of interpreting the i ching". Well, yes, obviously he must think so to say it. And it is probably not absolutely correct, we could get 19 or 5 or 27 ways of reading it.
But what i mean, is that if a secular tradition comes to the conclusion that there are 7 ways of reading the i ching, maybe they say it for a reason i haven't reached yet. And just because "some guy" comes, out of the blue, and says to me: "i think there are 13 ways of reading it", without giving me any backup or core foundations for such a believe, i might just roll with tradition. And if another guy tells me that there are infinite ways of reading it, he is basically saying nothing. Now, if someone, like you for example, approaches me with a theory of a certain way of reading it, i will consider it seriously and listen carefully to what you've discovered.
Wilhelm proposes two, which at least is more than one: you can read it as an oracle or as a book of wisdom. Now, having said this, i don't know what these 7 ways are, and i'm not affirming categorically there are 7 ways of reading it, but i do think i will trust more what a daoist master of a long tradition tells me, than what every user of the i ching says to me. Plus, i just remembered:

Da Zhuan, Chapter X: On the four ways of using the Yi Jing.

I suspect using numbers may be involved in some of the many ways that we can 'read' the Yi.

Now, this doesn't deny the fact that there probably might just be about a thousand ways of reading it, but... honestly, i prefer one way of reading it that has been carefully elaborated, than the possibility of a thousand ways of reading it. One can get lost easily in such diversity. And, of course, anyone can elaborate their own system by him or herself, and thats just fine. The functionality and consistency of his or her system will be proved later on by the rest of the world.
By subjectivism and individualism i mean that not every opinion has the same value, and by relativism that not everything is relative, there are objective truths that apply to everyone, and secular truths that have proven their worth through time. These objective truths is what i call laws.

I also don't much like - nor rely upon - people taking myth or a personal or even cultural or religious belief and turning it into accurate, historic 'fact'.

Agreed.

So, Tarot clearly uses ancient symbolism, but it is not itself an ancient divination system.

Also agreed. But it is the ancient symbolism what is interesting to me of the tarot. And yes, it most likely was created in the Renaissance, and in Italy, because in those times hermetism, kabbalah, neoplatonism and alike were of strong interest to humanists.

Briefly reading the "Tarot of the Bohemians" I feel this is what Gérard Encausse (a.k.a. Papus) does: he discusses a divination system, Tarot, in mystical and mythical ways, and he uses myths and his mystical beliefs about the 'Ancient Hebrews' - and how they gave numeric and spiritual meaning to letters, etc. to explain and justify what he's saying

I can't deny or affirm this, I think you might be right. But i also think that he systematizes the tarot in accordance with certain ideas that has permeated human thought for a long time: the tree of life, the number three, the four elements, thesis-antithesis-synthesis, and so on. If the old hebrews spoke of this in the same way he does, well, i doubt it, since they had no tarot, and they probably had other things in mind. But this doesn't invalidates the (possible) accuracy of his metaphysical system applied on tarot. But yeah, i don't know that much about these issues, so i can't really discuss them. He could be just a fake. He could have said something useful. But i agree on what you said: "people taking myth or a personal or even cultural or religious belief and turning it into accurate, historic 'fact'" can be definately troubling.

I mean, who wants their great, great, great .... grandparents to be half-snake and to be brother and sister?

Well, there sure are some people who would like it!

I don't know what these 'laws' are that you are telling us about

Laws like polarity (there can be no yin without yang and viceversa); all that goes up goes down (yin and yang exchange eachother); everything changes (time can't be stopped)...
The original text of the Yi Jing does state, for example, that "once you step on frosted ground, hard ice is coming". Seems to me like a rather objective statement. Plus, each line of the yi is written based on an objective situation that justifies those words, they don't just come out of the blue.

And, I can, in fact, 'deny' (metaphorically or spiritually) this 'perfection' of which you speak, since I find quite a bit of 'imperfection' or things that are less than perfect in the Yi:

Yeah, you enjoy to deny stuff, i can see that
But you are "denying" what i said recurring to something i didn't talk about. What you call imperfect situations are just symbols that try to express every possible situation. ¿How could we speak of complete perfection, if a dragon was exclusively in the sky, or if a wheel didnt break from time to time? Things just wouldn't change at all. And we couldn't speak of a complete perspective if we don't add every possible situation to the equation. Im speaking about the fact that the yi jing did actually give birth to Leibniz's binary system, which gave birth to our modern computers. But, this mathematical perfection has no meaning, that is why it is like the back-end development, while the words, the symbols and the change are the substantial, meaningful, changing parts of it. We have a underlying structure, and a superficial expression. Noumenon and phenomenon, if i dare.

Again, I don't know which 'laws' you're referring to

Here it is shown that the way to success lies in apprehending and giving actuality to the way of the universe [Tao], which, as a law running through end and beginning, brings about all phenomena in time.

- Richard Wilhelm, Hexagram 1, commentary on the main sentence.

This morning I got an email from the American Association of Retired Persons (AARP) titled, "7 New Tax Brackets for 2022". Coincidence, a happy accident, or synchronicity?

And yes, mathematics are not a necessity to use the book, but the fact that there are 2 lines, 4 bigrams, 8 trigrams and 64 hexagrams; that there are no "pentagrams" sticked in there, prove that it is based on rigorous and pretty simple mathematics at its core. But im no mathematician, nor does my interest on the yi rely on the mathematical principles it stands on. But i do believe there are mathematics involved. SPecially on the yarrow stalk method, which is a certainly brilliant method, also based on mathematics.

 

[dfreed]

I'm definately not expressing myself correctly

This, for me, pretty much sums up most of what you've shared here.

You started by asking four questions that have pretty much been answered - and at least for the first question about online Chinese dictionaries, I think you knew the answer before you even asked the question.

To more fully and definitively answer your first question: No, you should not rely on on-line dictionaries or any dictionaries to learn Chinese and the Yi - these are meant only as aids. You should find a good teacher or course, and take a few years to study written Chinese, and you should probably take another few years to study archaic or ancient Chinese, since that's the system that was used when the Yi was first written. And after all that, I think you may have a good chance at translating and understanding Yuan. Heng. Li. Zhen.

Besides this, I feel that you are being a bit disingenuous here (far less then honest): you have used your 'four questions' as a spring-board to share your very long, very varied, and far-reaching ideas about just about everything, from the Yi's first four words, to mathematics, to the varied interpretations by the Taoists, to what someone else said the Ancient Hebrews supposedly did .... etc. etc. etc.

How you present your ideas is a bit maddening for me: you describe things as being other than what they are ('four letters' instead of 'the first four words of the Yi'); you quote other people's ideas, but present them as absolute fact and truth; and you mention something - like 'law's - and only after the fact do you give us your sources and explain what the heck you actually mean.

You are also what we here in America call being 'all over the map' and you quite often 'move the goalpost' - meaning you don't stay on one topic, nor fully explore an idea, nor fully answer questions about what you're saying. It's as if you think that by blindly shooting scatter-shot all over the place, you're going to hit one specific target - but inquiry and critical thinking don't work like that!

All that is totally fine of course - and Exploring Divination is definitely the place to share your far-ranging thoughts on all things esoteric; and of course no threads are required to 'stay on track'. I just wish you'd titled the thread something a bit closer to what you're actually doing here, like:

* "My thoughts on ALL the connections between the Yi and ALL the esoteric traditions" .... or
* "What 'Yuan Heng Li Zhen' really means, based on my clear understanding of tarot, kabbalah, & tetragrammaton (and my use of on-line Chinese dictionaries)"

.... or something else (I trust you can be quite creative).

And of course these are just my own thoughts, and no one here need pay them any mind. That said, I am going to take my own advice and leave you and others to your esoteric, far-ranging and every changing thoughts about all things Yi.

Regards, D

 

[Plutonian]

You sound rather angry. I'll change the title based on your very gentle, non ironic suggestions. And a lot of what you say is true, i apologize for that. I was longing to share a lot of what I've been studying, hoping someone could either help me understand it better, either amplify it with their own work. I'm not native english, so i might not be as good writing my thoughts as you'd expect. Since i see you are leaving me now, and ending this thread, most sadly, I'll just say I'm no expert on esoteric traditions and I never claimed to have a clear understanding of them. I think i said, like 3 times, that I do not have such understanding. I only proposed some thoughts to work on, hoping someone would express something that I don't know, something i could learn of, rather than just refuting and denying everything I propose in a rather puritanistic way. Yet, since all of phases of the process are justified, I must thank you for your lesson. I'm sure the foolish young and the wise old man, teached eachother to be mutually patient.
¡Un abrazo! J.

 

[dfreed]

You sound rather angry ....

I am not angry, but frustrated (though I think anger - not hatred - is a totally appropriate response in some cases). And I am not a puritan nor do I like 'denying stuff'. I just don't like it when people present ideas and theories as absolute facts; and that's how you often come across; and this is made all the more frustrating now that you've admitted (3x) that you don't know much about the topics you're sharing with us! And my comments about you being less than clear still stand.

... hoping someone would express something that I don't know, something i could learn ....

Well, one thing I've learned is not everything we read or find on the internet (or in books, etc.) is true - especially about the Yi and other spiritual and esoteric topics. Just because someone says something about tarot, or tetragrammaton, or the Ancient Hebrews does not mean that what they are saying is truthful or factual. And the same goes for anyone's 'laws' or what people have to say (or believe) about the Tao, or numbers, or 'symbols', or to the idea that the "yi jing did actually give birth to Leibniz's binary system" ....

And another thing I think is that 'being all over the map' is not usually a good way to get to truth or discover useful information.

.... And yet out of this wreckage we can glean ideas and concepts that we resonate with, that we find useful. I just don't think it's useful or honest to convert them to absolute truths - just because we happen to like them!

(And not to get all critical and puritanical on you, but I think that the Yi didn't 'give birth' to Leibniz's ideas - he simply found a connection or correspondence between the broken and solid lines and his metaphysical/math/numbers ideas; oh, and I just read, Leibniz may have plagiarized Juan Caramuel y Lobkowitz and Thomas Harriot, who independently developed the binary system, as he was familiar with their works - but I'm open to learning the 'facts' about that subject.)

But please, do continue to share your thoughts with us if you wish. Really! In the future, if I don't find them honest or factual, or useful, I'll consider just opting out - instead of getting all critical or puritanical about what you're saying.

 

[dfreed]

My thoughts on ALL the connections between the Yi and ALL the esoteric traditions (thanks d)

Great new title for this thread! - but I wonder which brilliant diviner and sage came up with it ?

The Yi and me, and all the ancestors (both Chinese and Hebrew) approve!

 

[Plutonian]

My friend, I value honesty even if i have to lean my head and recognize my mistake. Yet i do want to say some things, just to close this, since it has become offtopic.
1. In any case did i present my sayings as absolute truths.
2. I am not leaning on internet information, i mainly read books and i draw conclusions out of my reasoning, and not out of "what someone happened to say about something", unless what he said makes sense.
3. Bringing up the tetragrammaton and all, was evidently not the best move, i give you that. It just rounded my head for some while now, and i thought this was the best place to share.
4. Please, do criticize.
5. About being all over the place and all, thank you, you helped me understand a way of action of my soul, i couldn't grasp (and you did it with a metaphor, nice!)
6. I'm not used to an academic way of writing, maybe that's why I struggle with citing.
7. Thanks for this conversation, I will continue to share my thoughts, and look for further commentaries on your part.

PD:

and this is made all the more frustrating now that you've admitted (3x) that you don't know much about the topics you're sharing with us!

I said I'm not an expert on esotericism or on the Tetragrammaton.

 

[Plutonian]

Great new title for this thread! - but I wonder which brilliant diviner and sage came up with it ?

The Yi and me, and all the ancestors (both Chinese and Hebrew) approve!

Ah! Good news for once

 

[dfreed]

Bringing up the tetragrammaton and all, was evidently not the best move .... Please, do criticize.
I'm not used to an academic way of writing, maybe that's why I struggle with citing.

Bringing up the tetra. (or tarot, or the ancients) is fine, especially within the context of a broader esoteric exploration of the Yi. I still don't see any resonance between the tetragrammaton and the first four words of the Yi (and the author's 'facts' about what the ancient Hebrews did with the name of god seems entirely speculative to me, not factual), but different strokes I guess ....

Being critical - or thinking critically can be good. Being mean-spirited or unduly critical is not, and I apologize if that's how I've been or come across - I am willing to discuss that (and you are welcome to message me, if that's more appropriate).

I am not 'academic' but I do try to think critically about things, be it the Yi or politics. As I said, my main frustration was that you are talking people's ideas and theories and presenting them as absolute facts and 'the truth'; people do this all the time with the Yi, where they take myths and turn them into historical events and facts; and they take ideas and make rules out of them. There may be some positive aspects to me bringing this up, but really - you should feel free to express yourself as you wish (even if I don't find it useful or 'approve' of it).

At this point, I realize I was being overly harsh, so I apologize. And I'd like to encourage you to continue your explorations in whatever way you'd like .... others will likely find them interesting and useful.

D

 

[Plutonian]

At this point, I realize I was being overly harsh, so I apologize. And I'd like to encourage you to continue your explorations in whatever way you'd like .... others will likely find them interesting and useful.

Nonetheless, I enjoyed our exchange and really thank you for being honest and direct! I'd like to further discuss different matters specifically of the Yi with you, since you seem to me a person that expresses himself with much clarity and precision. Might just be a good counterpart for my chaotic, all-in-one, junglelike way of expressing my ideas

So, I think we are ready to move from Pi to Tai now. Allow me to go on with our exchange in a more organized way, and I'll try to stay on track in this one.

So, I'm currently looking (once again) at the "Yuan Heng Li Zhen" characters. I know we will probably come to no definite conclusions or anything, but I'd like to know your personal opinion on this one, as someone who evidently knows his stuff.

First of all I want to get something out of the way: How was the punctuation on the original? Did it have commas, full stops, or nothing at all?

Having asked that, I'll develop some ideas now:

I noticed that, in his commentary on these words, Kung Tse says the following:

大哉乾元 - Vast is the 'great and originating (power)' indicated by Qian! (Legge)

What I notice here, is that Kung Tse doesn't use the character 元 as "great", but instead as "origin". He uses the character 大 to indicate greatness. I checked Lao Tse chapter XXV, and I find he (or them) use the same character (大), to express greatness, yet no sign of 元.

Nonetheless, to my surprise, I find that the choice of words translators use to traduce 元 is, in most cases, very vague, or more near to 大 than to 元:

元亨

Wilhelm: - Das Schöpferische wirkt erhabenes gelingen...
(traduced as sublime in english and as elevado in Spanish; in German it means glorious, excelse, sublime, etc.)

Cleary: The Creative: Great success...

Blofeld: The Creative Principle: Sublime success!...

Vilá: Lo Creativo: Fundamentalmente propicio...
(the Vilá version is a direct translation to Spanish, the only one to date as far as i know. It relies on more recent discoveries. Translating 元 as fundamental, seems to me, is closer to the way in which Kung Tse uses the word, as origin.)

Vogelmann: Lo Creativo obra Elevado Éxito...
(Vogelmann is Wilhelms translator to Spanish.)

De Harlez: (C’est) l’origine, le progrès...

To me, it seems De Harlez and Vilá are the ones that get closer to what 元 might want to express in the sentence, but Vilá is too vague, and De Harlez is too deep.

De Harlez actually adds a note saying:

Termes philosophiques indiquant toutes les phases de la vie des êtres.
Philosophical terms indicating the phases of life of beings.

I know a definitive translation might be impossible, but, as Maeterlinck puts it:

Voici un nouveau mystère. Interrogeons-le comme les autres, et s'il se tait comme eux son silence agrandira du moins de quelques arpents nébuleux, mais ensemencés de bonne volonté, le champ de notre ignorance consciente, qui est le plus fertile que notre activité possède.
Here is a new mystery. Let us question him like the others, and if he remains silent like them, his silence will at least expand by a few nebulous hectares, but sown with good will, the field of our conscious ignorance, which is the most fertile that our activity possesses.

I've found very profound ways of translating these four characters, but they usually only work for Qian. And the four characters appear, in the same combination, once again, in hexagrams 1, 2*, 3, 17, 19 and 49. And well, the translation should work for every one of those cases, not only for Qian.

From the very profound, i wen't up to the most simplistic translation, and thought, that maybe
the first two characters, 元亨 just means something like: "things work out", which would, in the end, be in line with translations such as "sublime success".

So, I'm also reflecting on 元 meaning "head". Well, ¿what does the head stand for? To me, it can be understood as microcosms heaven. So, in the same way Heaven works on Earth, our Head does on our Body, namely, it originates and directs movement. Head goes, body follows. Yet, the symbol of the first movement, in the Yi, seems to be the "toe of the foot", which could be a symbolic expression for the Zhen trigram. So the head doesn't symbolizes movement in itself, but rather what precedes and rules over movement.

Yet, once again, it seems that "head" isn't a valid translation for 元 either, since, when all lines of the Qian hexagram change, we read 无首 referring to "no head". Yet, if we consider the head to be the origin and directive of movement, we are getting closer to a valid analogy between "head" and "origin".

So, I'm gonna stay with origin and fundamental for now. If we look at the Seal Script: , at the Bronze Inscription: and at the Oracle Bones: , it seems to me that it resembles the representation of an underground root, that is, at the same time, under the sky (the top line). The root is, symbolically, the representation of origin, and of "to be founded on something". I apologize if this has already been stated, proposed, refuted or confirmed without me knowing about it.
Also, I do see a resemblance between the archaic characters previously shown and the Silk Script character that later developed into the character for "heaven", also associated with Qian.

Also, I notice a similarity between the characters for "heaven": 天, for "vast" or "great": 大 and for "origin": 元, all used when speaking of Qian.

I'm just throwing out many threads, please do pick up the one you feel like doing, and don't hesitate to correct me if I happen to be wrong on something, or plainly discard what don't seem coherent to you.

I'll stop there. Tomorrow I'll see if I come up with further indagations.

¡Un saludo amigo!
J.

 

[dfreed]

I'd like to further discuss different matters specifically of the Yi with you,

I will try to respond as I can. I have an initial question however. I'm wondering, what is your interest in the Yijing? Are you specifically interested in using it as an oracle, to do 'readings'? Or is your interest more spiritual or philosophical? Or perhaps your interest is more intellectual, that it's a puzzle of some sort you want to solve? Or ...?

I am not implying right or wrong here. I only ask because it will help me in responding: you may want different things if you are interested in it as an oracle versus as a book of philosophical wisdom, or your trying to solve the 'mathematics' of it.

How was the punctuation on the original? Did it have commas, full stops, or nothing at all?

Short answer: I really don't know for sure. My understanding is the early Chinese text were not punctuated (with periods, commas, etc.); they were written on bamboo slips and there may have been some 'divisions' or breaks, based on what was written on each individual piece of bamboo. I don't know when the punctuation was added (perhaps Hilary or someone else on this forum does?), however I think most, if not all, of the versions we have now share the same - or similar punctuation and spacing, etc.

Also, Chinese lacks what I call the 'connecting' words and parts of speech (I know there are names for these, I just can think of them right now). I think Chinese also lacks (or lacked) tense, and distinctions of plural or singular - and in some instances, sex or gender.

For example, Line 23.1 reads
- bo chuang yi zu mie zhen xiong
- deprive bed of basis disregard loyalty ill-omened

23.1 - Depriving the bed of its legs
To dismiss such persistence is unfortunate (Hatcher)

So seven Chinese characters are 'translated' using eleven English words

I think part of the skill in translation is knowing or determining where these 'divisions' should be; and I believe this is based on an understanding of the structure, syntax, meanings, word groupings, and by looking at how words were used or put together. That's way more than I want to take on at this stage of my life so I rely on authors and translators whom have been recommended to me by people who I trust.

Best, D.