Q:

What is the hope of a good reconciliation between us?​

Hello, I am new to posting - or at least it’s 10 years since I last posted (under a different handle). Iclarity continues to be a resource I refer to daily, so I feel like I know you all (!) - even though I haven’t been participating and my intention now, is to start and to contribute to the forum.

Background to this: I met somebody in October at a time in my life where somebody very dear to me was coming to the end of their life after a shocking diagnosis and very little time given to live (my best friend) and I had been close by her side for the previous 6 months.
I embarked on a relationship with X (ex veteran) in October, (my friend died beginning of Dec) and it’s been really lovely and supportive and warm - seeing each other during the week and every weekend felt kind of effortless.. great attraction between the two of us and he was always consistent and reliable, which was something I really appreciated. I mentioned my friend because I think somehow the situation made me emotionally available or something like that. I was open to love in a different way because I felt so heartbroken.

Things started to unravel a couple of weeks ago though. I made a comment about the fact he had brought up his ex girlfriend (I can’t blame the fact I have ADHD for this, but I think it may have contributed to this faux pas - or is it actually okay to bring up things we’re worried about..?) and that the comment had stayed with me because she’d been mentioned on more than one occasion and I wanted to check if there was any risk of there being unfinished business..? I said I wanted to bring that up to clear it.. so that it didn’t have the effect of me withdrawing/backing off - which I could feel it might do otherwise, and I want to keep things close and open not risk withdrawing. So I bought it up, I felt that it had been cleared. He put my mind at rest, but he has not been the same since with me.. the way he communicated since has changed - on more than one occasion he’s left it all night before responding to a message which was unheard of before… so the safe container of the relationship has been broken and then a series of other mis-attunements (including pretty much completely ignoring Valentine’s Day which sounds ridiculous because it’s not something I would care about under normal circumstances, but it felt reflective of a lack of love - he sent a text message: Happy Valentine’s Day with a emoticon).. I suggested we meet for a walk he said (afterwards) that he had thought I was going to end things and went out and drank too much the night before and then, when we met he felt like quite a different person to me, quite rogue-ish and cold somehow.. it’s been a very disappointing disintegration of something that seemed so hopeful.. actually, I felt extremely upset and angry so much so it made me wonder whether I’d somehow buried my grief in this new relationship, and when it began to falter (the relationship) that my grief emerged.. (I’m not sure screaming on the motorway on the way back from a less than ideal walk - date is an accurate lineup of feelings… ).

Anyway.. we were going to meet and try and get things back on track - he said he was looking forward to seeing me once his son had left who was staying with him for a couple of days.. Then I got a short one liner from him last week (whilst his son was with him, so I wonder whether this had some influence ) saying he wasn’t going to come and see me again because he didn’t want any more drama. Just like that.. after four months of sleeping with each other 3/4 nights a week.. I didn’t like the phrase either: won’t be coming to see you anymore.. like I’m some kind of call girl it felt like.. but I know that’s an oversensitive response. But a strange sentence to end a relationship with..

Then we had some exchanges back-and-forth (most of them, really just saying how shocked and upset I was) and then I suggested that I thought it was salvageable between us, but we would both need to stop guessing / thinking what the other was doing and trust each other to give it a go (which sounds simple, but isn’t) and that I wanted to try but I need him to also be in it.. He said let’s have a week to think.. I know he’s with army friends this weekend and I guess I’ll hear from him next.. I’m giving him the space and also myself.

So.. that was my question - what hope for us to have a good reconciliation?

Line one deep into lasting, line 2 regrets vanish. I guess that could be a reflection of the fact it feels like it’s all gone, but then regrets vanish and the relationship endures…? or it could be the relationship is over and my regrets about that vanish. A part of me feels like if he’s not available to come back from this misunderstanding in a spirit of working together then perhaps I haven’t lost anything and that might be the regret that vanishes… I know he feels like I have deliberately pushed him away and there may be something in that.. and I would be willing to address that…

I asked a final question just now - overall potential for this relationship with X:

1.3.4.5.6 - 19

That to me, looks like this creative energy could be heralded into a positive nearing for us?

And then, lastly, will we be together?

9 unchanging
Which makes me think that if we can more gently respond to each other in a spirit of commitment that maybe yes…

Thank you, and excuse the rather long share, happy Sunday
Sarah

Sarah_ said:

Which makes me think that if we can more gently respond to each other in a spirit of commitment that maybe yes…

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I'm having trouble figuring out each piece of your readings, but that seems like a reasonable summary.

What the readings seem to have in common is don't push or rush it. 32.1 says that. 1.6 says you can't make things happen, just like roosters don't make the sun come up by crowing. 19 says "Arriving at the eighth month means a pitfall," which is similar (don't try for results too soon), and 9 says small cultivation is good, but points out you can't control the weather.

I'm not sure what to make of 32.2 exactly, but I wonder if it could mean it'll be okay whatever happens.

It might be a good idea to keep going over lines 3, 4, and 5 of hexagram 1. They might explain how to reach the potential. Maybe read as much as you can about them by different authors, keep thinking about them. Maybe some ideas will come to mind.

Is the ex in question his son's mother, by any chance?

Good to have you posting again after 10 years!

Hi Liselle,

Sorry it was a bit of a messy brain dump - so thanks for taking the time to pull the threads out.

Yes - I think that's good to keep in focus - what you say about not rushing it. Instinctively it feels like letting the situation mostly breathe is the best way now. It felt like he felt like he was getting backed into a corner somehow.. or going through the motions of something - can't quite explain it..

I will do as you suggest - and take the time to read over those 3 lines of hexagram 1 - also a good way to take the focus off of him which feels healthier too - perhaps that's also energetically allows the situation some space..

No - he divorced his children's mother about 4 years ago - his last girlfriend - who he mentioned, he was in a relationship with for 2 years which ended about 6 months ago now (so 2 months before we met). According to him she didn't like him to spend any weekends away from her and when he suggested he'd like to occasionally see friends she said they might as well end the relationship (apparently.. you never know when you only hear one side do you) - I'm kind of the opposite of that - whilst I love feeling secure in a relationship and can get needy when I don't feel safe.. I also love having some time to myself too..

Thanks again Liselle.

An update - we met just now for a bit of a debrief. he said he didn’t know what was wrong with him. He felt like he should be in love with me but he didn’t feel it and that he felt like that in his last two relationships also and he’d waited too long in those... He said it wasn’t my problem that he should probably have therapy but that he wasn’t going to… Background was he was in a children’s home growing up before finding the military, so I don’t think he’s ever had unconditional love as a child I don’t know what that does to you as an adult, but I guess it makes it difficult to trust in love. I said, I thought he had felt it because we had a lovely connected time together where I saw it in his eyes and then the following week he was like a different person.. because his defences had gone up..(I mean really, you could tell me he had a twin I’d not known about and that would make sense.. a different person) and to me he has been like a completely different person since then, I think he got close to opening his heart and then defended himself and now he’s not accessible in anyway.

I’m ready for a real relationship a good relationship.. He seemed sad to leave. I was glad we’ve been honest with each other and had an ending of sorts. He said he’d made some things up about feeling like I wasn’t invested, because actually he was backing off.

He said “thanks for giving me a chance” as he left which was heartbreaking.. so it’s all very sad.

(I probably haven’t heeded the advice about not rushing it… )

Don’t know how this relates to the 32 and the 55…

It does seem sad, and it's sad about his life as a child, too. Thank you for updating, Sarah.

Thanks Liselle. I’ve got a bit of a hunch about this. I feel like he’s (or we are) enacting something. Him having had a history of people not coming through for him.. not really loving him.. I wonder if he might come back and check if I’m still in invested - you know the way children do… come back and see if you’re still there.. There’s something here about attachment styles playing out…
I might ask another question..

Hey Sarah…

The 9 unchanging stuck out to me the most. Rain clouds but no rain.

Seems apt based on your update. I see him as the rain clouds without rain. Feels like he’s keeping his heart closed and not allowing love (the rain to fall). But his healing is his own responsibility.

As far as attachment styles, if he were to come back and create a cycle with you, or try to, would you let him? Would you want that? If so, why? Sounds like a good way to create more trauma and grief in the long run.

The unchanging aspect of 9 feels like he does not intended to change, at least for now. And since you said he doesn’t intend to get therapy, even though he said he probably needs it, then you have a pretty adequate picture of who he is and who he’d be in a relationship. Unwilling to change. Unwilling to rain.

Sounds to me like you’re dodging a bullet. Or at least avoiding wandering in a desert and going thirsty. Maybe I’m wrong here about how it will unfold bw you. But I’d much rather prefer a 42 to show up. Something that is encouraging me to pour more of my heart and self into the person or thing.

And my experiences with the lines of 32 are mostly how there isn’t much of that 32-lasting and everlasting feeling and beingness we want in a relationship. When it comes up, I feel like Yi is almost rudely pointing out how little the thing I’m asking about isn’t part of my heart or circling journey, yet it wants me to muse more deeply on my own heart’s deeper desires. Because what I’m asking about, even if it’s a behavior, won’t fulfill my heart’s yearnings and may potentially even wound it. I’ve even seen 32.1 and another line come up on this forum in relation to a woman who was date raped by a guy who seemed super friendly but took advantage of her when she was drunk. Total lack of 32. I’ve looked at 32 differently eversince. And by no means am I saying he’s in this realm. But the energy is that that 32-loving feeling and endurance of the heart is lacking.

Edit: taking a look at 55 as a backdrop might give you perspective on appropriate actions.

Wilhelm/Baynes: “Abundance has success. The king attains abundance. Be not sad. Be like the sun at midday.”

“Thus the superior man decides lawsuits and carries out punishments.”

The King, or Junzi, in 55 does not mourn the loss of his father but carries on with what he has to do. He is the decision-maker.

I think Yi is calling for you to become the decision-maker for yourself and decide what you allow in your realm as well as what punishments need to be carried out.

This doesn’t sound like reconciliation, but a way of approaching your life as the Sovereign. And the Sovereign, which we ideally embody as our higher self (junzi), is severe and bold when it comes to the decisions of the heart.

It’s incredibly kind of you to take the time to respond in such depth. Thank you.

Interesting what you say about rain clouds but no rain.. and also about the mirror - yes I think I could apply this to him and also to me. This last couple of days I’ve been so upset and I know it’s about the grief of losing my best friend - a young woman with two small children. I couldn’t bear to feel my feelings at the time, so I dived into a relationship with him and now my grief is waiting for me. I did the same when my dad died. I started a relationship with an unsuitable man a couple of weeks before he died. I was in my 20s and then spent seven years in an unhappy (sometimes abusive) relationship and again when that ended all my grief was waiting for me. I’m very familiar with therapy so I should know better!

I love what you say about healing being our own responsibility.

I really don’t have capacity to enter into some future toxic dance. Though I can’t unequivocally say if he came back I would say no. I’m really going to let your words land about this though.

It’s interesting what you say about him being unwilling to change. unwilling to rain. He’s chosen someone who works for a living with peoples feelings, (that’s me) and I think a wise part of him knows it’s time and he’s resisting though as you say it’s not my responsibility.

Your bullet and desert analogy, are very powerful thank you and your mentioning about 32, not lasting in the heart... I really need a safe other, sadly he stopped being it.

I feel myself wanting to jump in something else. I think I need to let the rainfall and sit with these uncomfortable feelings. Thank you very much.

PS, I woke up yesterday in the early hours to a message from him, saying how much he missed me and wished he could open his heart. I said he wasn’t to blame. That I miss him too and that I thought he would one day. (but I didn’t take the bait which it felt like he was sort of offering)… and actually just now whilst writing this, (he must be picking up the vibes). He sent a message saying he’s already jealous of whoever it is I end up with (?)

You’re welcome.

We all have our traumas and patterns waiting to be healed. Sounds like you are aware of your pattern of avoiding grieving by distracting yourself with someone who can’t be stable love for you. Maybe the mirror there is your need to be that stable love for your own heart. At the end of every cycle that’s caused me grief, I’ve found the same need for love within my heart. And it was for my own self-love first.

Showing up for yourself and feeling your own grief is like letting the rain clear and cleanse you and your heart. I’ve been in the midst of healing grief for a while now and have come to a new stage. Where I begin to move into joy. Yellow colors abound. Bright sunlight. And the waters of the ocean of life wait for me to step in. I saw this vision of me at the top of mountain where there was all this mist, which was my grief. Down below on the other side was all that light and those pure ocean waters.

There’s light at the end of the tunnel of your grief. You just have to be willing to stay with it and go through it.

I feel for your loss. I understand the desire to avoid grief. I avoided mine because I genuinely thought it would destroy me. But I found that it enlarged my heart in a way I never knew. All I found when I let myself grieve was this immense LOVE. Deep, abiding love. And it didn’t destroy me. It opened my heart and showed me that there’s strength in keeping it open despite the slings and arrows that may come. And that I am strong enough despite my fear of those slings.

Distractions are cheap tricks that steal our attention away from the intensity and experience of the present moment. We deserve to feel just what’s in that experience and let it move us. Not to numb out.

You know you don’t have the capacity for a toxic dance, so honor it. And of course you need a safe other! Especially so. Those messages are temptations into that dance. He’s unwilling to open his heart, but he will approach and play with the idea as a child would, in terror of being known and truly experiencing another deeply. This is his loss.

This may or may not land for you, but when I think of beautiful, pure, loving masculine energy, I think of Archangel Michael. In meditation, I’ve experienced his presence. It brought me to tears and awed me. I was shocked by my response to his presence. Why so? I wondered. In the vision I saw the Holy Spirit come through after his arrival. Michael makes it safe for that unconditionally loving presence to enter. In the same way, I felt I could surrender in his presence. That I was loved and protected. And it was a major relief.

I’m not saying to place the need for love and protection outside of ourselves. Because we can be this presence for ourselves. I’m saying, what woman or person wouldn’t want someone they could surrender into? Someone she could lower her guard around bc it is safe? Because his heart is open and his presence is loving and protective? Because he has that strength, power and courage and is centered in it?

Why wouldn’t you deserve this kind of love and presence? (Not to say you require the ideal masculine like AA Michael! Haha!)

And your heart deserves that you feel your grief and to experience the depth of your love because your heart’s experience matters. And, why not give yourself the gift a man who will meet you and open to joining your heart? Why accept less?

Don't let your fear of your grief rob you of its truth. It will look and feel different, when you make friends with it or at least know it. That’s my experience.

I can honestly say I spent a good portion of my life terrified of experiencing and feeling anything but what felt safe for me. I know how trauma and its effects carry on in our energy fields and minds and hearts. So I think a lot of us play at life. Kind of a half life. Half-a$$. Or living a numbed out version of it. It takes someone with a lot of courage to open themselves up to feel the intensity of the human experience. For me, this intensity has often caused me to want to contract. But I’ve learned to open and lean into it. To have the courage to experience it.

I don’t know you but, if you are choosing to heal and not cycle, then you’re living courageously already.

And I’m not sure if he’s drunk messaging or late night messaging, but it’s play. It’s a game he probably isn’t even aware of. If he was considerate of your heart, he wouldn’t play. No late night messages without follow-through. He’d address you proper, like a grown man capable of dealing with his wounding. It almost seems like he’s asking for your permission to continue in spite of his lack. “I can’t open my heart and I’m sorry. It’s not your fault. But…[unspoken desire to continue in spite.]

He’s already jealous? if I were you, I’d want sweet fruits.

There is a man with enough courage to heal and to open his heart to share it and his love with you. When you’re ready for him. If he’s too fearful to open his heart, he may be too cowardly to meet other parts of living life with you. Maybe he will grow and change and heal. But don’t try to fix him! Or accept less than what your heart yearns for. Don’t betray your own heart.

Just speaking from experience. May not be as serious for you. lol.

Can I also say I love what you said here, so powerful and helpful thank you:

The King, or Junzi, in 55 does not mourn the loss of his father but carries on with what he has to do. He is the decision-maker.

I think Yi is calling for you to become the decision-maker for yourself and decide what you allow in your realm as well as what punishments need to be carried out.

This doesn’t sound like reconciliation, but a way of approaching your life as the Sovereign. And the Sovereign, which we ideally embody as our higher self (junzi), is severe and bold when it comes to the decisions of the heart.

We can’t afford not to be! Lots of work to do.

H. 55 - Execute! **Sun begins to shine out from behind the eclipse, clouds and the mist of our tears**

I was just about to go through your message and reply indepth. You are so kind.

Also, your insight is uncanny. I think I definitely triggered him when I brought that up yes.. I had thought it was because I had said that I’d wanted to bring it up so that I didn’t back off and that he only heard the bit about backing off and it had triggered his abandonment issues from his childhood. It could well be though that he does still have feelings for her… she did come up quite a lot in one way or another.

What you might be picking up on though might be something else about a third person to do with me.

Because this came up last night and now something is unfolding today..

Backstory – I met an amazing man about a decade ago who was so attentive and adoring and lovely I think we essentially had a 10 year sort of courtship thing… (never physically) Deep, emotional connection and a spiritual connection, and we met through a direction I was given when I was praying… he is quite a bit older than me, I met him through business, incredibly decent man, attractive, beautiful masculine energy and we had endless lovely meals out and spiritual conversations..

He is wildly successful. I’ve always felt less than and at that stage I hadn’t had my ADHD diagnosis and I rebuffed him because I didn’t feel worthy enough and I was intimidated by his wealth, I’ve always regretted it. Always. I arranged to meet him a year or so ago and I was planning on opening up to him about how I really felt about him and he arrived with his new partner at the restaurant.. I was so sad, I’d missed my opportunity and cried on the train on the way home!!

Anyway, I just got on with life and a few times I’ve been able to advise other people when they’ve had these kind of opportunities not to let them slip by. I was talking to a friend last night drinking too much wine and I bought this person up and said it had been my life‘s regret, and she said you need to email him. So I did earlier today. I didn’t say… I love you and want to be with you, but I hinted at some regret and shared a bit about how difficult it had been last year with my friend passing, and also having had a diagnosis that made sense of some of my feelings of inferiority etc. Anyway, I literally just had a lovely message back (just before your last comment) and reading between the lines it sounds pretty clear that he’s no longer with his partner and we’re meeting up this week. What you said in your email previously about sweet fruits popped into my head because we would often end a particular meal at a particular restaurant with sweet fruits….

Wow! The Yi amazes me. And the universe.

Sweet fruits. Haha. So, the channeled message I received and deleted (bc I wasn’t sure if it was helpful) is about you as 41.3. The single who meets the friend. Interesting turn of events!

I look forward to hearing an update on this. He sounds amazing. Funny how the universe also delivers on messages others give us. Same day delivery. Beyond human understanding. And someone you regretted rejected. Wow. Don’t let your ego get in the way. No matter your experiences, you’re deserving of the love you desire.

This is a player. With a Capital P. He will use you up, until there is nothing left. Run.

Hello Herny, that’s a bold statement - is this what you get from my words or the reading itself? I’d be interested to hear your insight.
Thanks,
S

Sarah_ said:

Hello Herny, that’s a bold statement - is this what you get from my words or the reading itself? I’d be interested to hear your insight.
Thanks,
S

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Both, Sarah. But let time be the judge.

Herny Zahir said:

This is a player. With a Capital P. He will use you up, until there is nothing left. Run.

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It isn't really enough to just throw in statements with no back up at all from what you see in the reading or even in the situation.

Trojina said:

It isn't really enough to just throw in statements with no back up at all from what you see in the reading or even in the situation.

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Who says?

Well it is a 'shared readings forum, it says so under the heading 'Shared Readings'

For sharing I Ching readings and asking for help with interpretation.

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so replies need to have some connection to the actual reading. It is of course only human to flesh that out with thoughts/ideas/opinions of one's own at times but if it is solely that and nothing else and you won't provide any back up at all when asked it does go against a forum guideline.

hilary said:

If something about the way you do readings is unfamiliar to most members (eg the method, the text), please edit your signature to include a link to an explanation. (You can always write this yourself in Exploring Divination.)

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That is taken from the general rules here


Above you have given advice without giving any indication at all as to how you come to it. That is why I said it is not enough.

It isn't enough to just say this to someone

This is a player. With a Capital P. He will use you up, until there is nothing left. Run.

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with absolutely no justification for it at all. If you wish to dispute this you could take it up with Hilary or take your dispute to the Moderation area. It doesn't really seem something up for dispute though does it.

Yes to that.

It's important to show your work. We're here to learn about the I Ching as much as to get "the answer." We'd like to understand how an answer comes from the reading, and how the reading applies to the question.

Also, if you give people some "how" and "why," they'll have an easier time using it in their lives, and hopefully also an easier time understanding their next reading.

Things like that.

I´ll guess we´ll see. My interpretation is clear. She doesn´t want it, no problem. You disagree, no problem. Its the I Ching. You see what you are able to see.

Liselle said:

Yes to that.

It's important to show your work. We're here to learn about the I Ching as much as to get "the answer." We'd like to understand how an answer comes from the reading, and how the reading applies to the question.

Also, if you give people some "how" and "why," they'll have an easier time using it in their lives, and hopefully also an easier time understanding their next reading.

Things like that.

Click to expand...

Where is the hope? 32 to 55 duration of intense emotion, line one is waiting line two is trying to fix his shit, both are confronting the dreadful 42.3.4.5.6 who is show falsety and end of growth. Splitting is the nuclear of that "nce" combination and if you get this the rest is easy. Why should she waste anymore time on this?

Thank you Herny for clarifying how you reached your answer. It does make it easier for me to see your reasoning related to the numbers. I hear what you’re saying about him being a player and whilst I don’t think it’s intentional, I think he’s so unconscious that he is acting out patterns which amount to the same playing of a game in the end.
There is something kind of alarming about hearing/seeing a statement like that, but perhaps that’s helpful for me too. I don’t really want time to tell because time is too precious for that. Anyway, things are finished between us and I won’t be indulging mixed messages or breadcrumbs so hopefully that’s drawn a line under it. Very much appreciate this forums, care and consideration and for any of you taking the time to respond and to protect the space to keep it safe. Thank you

Herny Zahir said:

Where is the hope? 32 to 55 duration of intense emotion, line one is waiting line two is trying to fix his shit, both are confronting the dreadful 42.3.4.5.6 who is show falsety and end of growth. Splitting is the nuclear of that "nce" combination and if you get this the rest is easy. Why should she waste anymore time on this?

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FYI, To reiterate again, seeing your reasoning with the numbers is super powerful and very helpful. Thank you.

Liselle said:

It's important to show your work. We're here to learn about the I Ching as much as to get "the answer." We'd like to understand how an answer comes from the reading, and how the reading applies to the question.

Also, if you give people some "how" and "why," they'll have an easier time using it in their lives, and hopefully also an easier time understanding their next reading.

Things like that.

Click to expand...

Of course I mean that in general; it applies to all of us. Hilary puts it much better:

hilary said:

Vision​

The I Ching Community is a warm and open place for free, wide-ranging exploration of the I Ching. It’s a place to learn about and from this oracle, through experience, one reading at a time. We respect the desire to learn, and honour the potential for growth in not knowing.

I asked Yi what the highest potential of this community is. It replied with Hexagram 4, Not Knowing, changing at the fifth line to Hexagram 59, Dispersing.

Welcome to the Community of Not Knowing!

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Liselle said:

Of course I mean that in general; it applies to all of us. Hilary puts it much better:

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Its alright Lisselle, all these rules are useful, thank you. Did my explanation served the purpose in your opinion?

Now it’s been a few weeks wanted to update:

Interestingly, my perspective and position has changed altogether now and I’m pleased that things between us didn’t continue. I feel quite differently towards him with the benefit of hindsight and some distance, now we’re no longer in an intimate relationship. There’s a lesson in there for me about being clear about the person I’m with before allowing intimacy to develop, because it really clouds my judgement and wanting to attach when it’s not in my best interests to.

So it’s not so much, there isn’t hope, but I really wouldn’t want anything now that I can see him and our relationship in as more sober light. So not entirely sure how to read 32.1.2 - 55 in this context. I think 32 was the lasting of the situation between us - which was apart… and the 55 might have been the backdrop of stress… not a positive reading for the relationship, but I feel so much more positive now not being in the relationship

Overall potential: 1 - 19 - to my mind, there’s no potential, so reading this as some kind of potential being channelled into a new positive direction… the creative energy was heralded into a new direction, but not towards each other.. I feel like I’m on a much better path now..

And then, 9 unchanging from my question, asking if we would be together. The answer is no! So in this context.. I think thisismybody was on the money here with rain clouds and no rain. No manifestation.

Thanks,
Sarah

Thank you for the update, Sarah. (Best wishes with the other fellow, too.)

Oh, how that sober light clears things up.

Sarah_ said:

some kind of potential being channelled into a new positive direction… the creative energy was heralded into a new direction

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Love it. Thank you for the update.