What effect does this forum have on Clarity as a whole?

hilary · Apr 22, 2008

I just read through this thread from the top again. I think I'd missed some gems on my first time through - those from Ben, especially.

I thought I'd designed the forum this time around so that it would be harder to get engrossed here and forget what was for sale. Looking at it again, I see I haven't managed anything of the kind. I can edit the forum descriptions easily enough (and why didn't I think of that??), but then I have to look at the templates again.

:hissy:

...hm, or use one of the umpteen forum mods available, that might be easier.

Thank you very much for the food for thought and practical suggestions.

Going to read all the rest with greater care, now, and see what else I've missed...

ben_s · Apr 22, 2008

Dobro and Hilary, I apologize for my confusion about Dobro's signature. Thanks to Trojan and Frank for explaining what's going on.

Hilary, I admire the way you talk from the heart and ask for advice. I'm not trying to set myself up as the sole source of all the answers for you. I'm just really eager to see the forums continue, and see you become a very comfortable Yillionaire or whatever other goals suit your style.

dobro p · Apr 22, 2008

He said 'yillionaire' ha ha.

Hilary (if you make a million quid off this site, do you become 'Hillionaire'?) it doesn't matter what you call this forum, people are going to flock to it, cuz it's free advice for the lovelorn, a population that numbers in the multimillions. Parallel: it doesn't matter whether you call a supermarket a food emporium, a comestibilium, or a tuckermart - you're still going to see tons of traffic through the door every day. As for what you're trying to achieve with the site, I think you're on the right track with the courses you offer for the people who are more serious about getting into the Yi. Here are two models to consider:

* the exoteric/esoteric school model. Tons of operations around the world follow this model. Jesus used it. You have a more or less public operation, and you have an inner circle. You're doing that. Pursue it.

* check out what guys in Britain like Misha Norland are doing. He's got his school of homeopathy in which he trains up and coming homeopaths, and he's got his practice, in which he consults people individually about their health issues. Both parts of the operation feed into each other - his students often consult him, and his patients regularly become his students. And because of all the action both sides of the operation generates, word gets around and even *more* people know about it and become part of it either directly or by association.

meng · Apr 22, 2008

Hilary,

12 may also be suggesting a separation between this forum and your private reading/consulting/teaching practice. A different look, name, positioning, etc. This avoids the line extension trap, which contrary to what most others here seem to be saying, I believe is harmful to your practice and profit.

meng · Apr 22, 2008

Further, paid membership could go toward maintaining the forum, without interfering with your business of running a business. You may choose to continue hosting the forum, but with no out of pocket expenses from you - sort of a co-op forum.

dobro p · Apr 22, 2008

meng said:
Hilary,

12 may also be suggesting a separation between this forum and your private reading/consulting/teaching practice. A different look, name, positioning, etc. This avoids the line extension trap, which contrary to what most others here seem to be saying, I believe is harmful to your practice and profit.

Yeah, that works if you see Hex 12 as 'the small comes, the great goes' primarily - that would suggest separation. But I see the 'small coming, great going' bit as an image not of separation but of forces not working together, hence the stagnation and obstruction of the time. If it were a matter of separation, then I think the consultation would have drawn 14.5.6>43. Having said that, I think your ideas for Hilary about the site are sensible anyway.

meng · Apr 22, 2008

I see it as heaven trigram moving upward and earth trigram moving downward. Regardless, there are many examples to draw from 12 (or any hexagram), which can illustrate many courses to take or avoid. I just mentioned this one because it hasn't yet been mentioned.

maremaria · Apr 22, 2008

I agree with Meng here about the seperation. This is why I also mentioned that to Hilary in the other thread. Imo, there sould be a living room for friends and an office for clients .

pakua · Apr 22, 2008

On the topic of paid membership, perhaps there should be some limit to how many questions non-paying members may ask per "suitable" time-frame... again, that would tie in to making the forum section self-sustaining...

hilary · Apr 22, 2008

I'm not clear what you mean by 'line extension trap'. Intrigued by the way your concept of the forum seems to be utterly different from mine, though.

Bear in mind that, whatever else I do, it's utterly essential to have a free offer that lets people get to know me. Doesn't it make sense to have the ICC be a part of that? Maybe not. Not sure any more.

meng · Apr 23, 2008

hilary said:
I'm not clear what you mean by 'line extension trap'. Intrigued by the way your concept of the forum seems to be utterly different from mine, though.

Bear in mind that, whatever else I do, it's utterly essential to have a free offer that lets people get to know me. Doesn't it make sense to have the ICC be a part of that? Maybe not. Not sure any more.

Line extension trap is a term, coined in the marketing classic "Positioning: The battle for your mind" by Al Ries and Jack Trout. A should read if not a must read for any serious marketer. They've written follow ups to it, but none are as essential as Positioning.

If you Google the term you'll find many examples and explanations, but the basic idea has to do with attempting to shirttail one product along with another. The perceived upside is that it will save the expense and hassle of branding the secondary product, but the typical result is loss of market share of the parent product, as well as failing to launch the ancillary product.

For example, when a famous gum company launched mints using the same brand name as the gum, not only did the the mint product die on the shelves, but the formerly wildly popular gum product share plummeted. It is the reason smart companies will brand a separate name for each soft drink, or each beer, or each automobile, or each laundry soap, etc, that they produce.

Applied here, imagine gathering a random IC focus group, and asking each participant "What is Clarity?" Some will say it's a forum. Some might say, it is where to learn about IC. Still others might say, it is Hilary's IC reading and teaching service. So just what is Clarity? Is it the forum, or the service you provide? The mind's single focus and clear identity of what it is and what it does is critical to being seen, heard and understood.

(edit out frustrated remark

)

ah well

the beat goes on...........

Sparhawk · Apr 23, 2008

That was a really cool explanation, Bruce.

Tohpol · Apr 23, 2008

Yes it rings true. I'd also say that the separation model seems to be the way to go - makes a lot of sense even if it might go against the instincts to integrate. I don't think this forum /site format is ever going to give you the income you're looking for in terms of hard sales - in it's present form at least - but as a support to a separate business set up - sure. Books, teaching and consultations distinct from this site but connected.

Topal

hilary · Apr 23, 2008

Mm. OTOH, Google. (And yes, it's an excellent explanation, thanks

)

heylise · Apr 23, 2008

On the other thread I wrote that I was going to imagine a paradise-Clarity to go to, but the only thing I found is, that Clarity has no face of its own, it is as if you go to a notepad where you can read and write. For a forum where you come for exactly that, it is fine. But for a 'paradise' to come to, I'd want something very different.

I'd want a 'Place'. This is a pretty notepad and it does a great job for this forum but obviously not for something where you come and spend money. I'd pay for a real 'Place'.

LiSe

hilary · Apr 23, 2008

That's really, really intriguing. How can a 'place' be made of web pages? (Can you find an example of one?)

steve · Apr 23, 2008

What effect does this forum have on Clarity as a whole?

Well to me it says,
the point is 14 is um to be honest, we are little lost without u hillary
Its your hands, so what will u do with it

ps everybody i am feeling better,,,wow what a journey huh

fkegan · Apr 23, 2008

Improving prospecting on Clarity place

LiSe-- I'd want a 'Place'. This is a pretty notepad and it does a great job for this forum but obviously not for something where you come and spend money. I'd pay for a real 'Place'.

hilary said:
That's really, really intriguing. How can a 'place' be made of web pages? (Can you find an example of one?)

A web site is often considered virtual real estate which would make it a place. The distinction between a web site that is a 'pretty notepad' and one which is a shop/museum where one expects to pay money for the ambiance seems to be how much of the vast other stuff on the web site, beyond the opportunity to post our personal ruminations, is clearly on display.

A solution might be available from Hilary's initial post creating this thread:

Common sense says that it's a shockingly bad idea to have a free forum where people give away readings and information on a site where I'm trying to sell these things…
This suggests to me that whatever good sense may say, this community has the potential to do wonders for Clarity. Also that it isn't doing so right now, because of 12-ish things (like my not being here enough - something I'm working on!).

bold added.

There is already a requirement to be signed in to post to the forums. Adding to the sign in protocol for Shared Readings Forum something to make sure folks are aware of the basics of I Ching readings and interpretation and what personal services Hilary offers would be a possibility as well.

There have been several threads I've participated on where it seemed clear to several of us that the originator of the thread could use some education, counsel and Clarity regarding their I Ching stuff.

Or the opportunity to flag somehow so that the person had a single click way to open that professional connection or others on a thread alert you that your post on this topic could be useful both for the thread and for your new business.

Neither suggestion rises to the level of branding a new product line for maximum market share, however, they do seem useful and practical for this site.

Frank

hilary · Apr 23, 2008

Your ideas blend interestingly with what Ben was suggesting about forum descriptions, headers, etc. (I'm looking into what I can add.) Do they make a 'place'? Not sure. Places for me are pretty much made of people, especially online. Something as simple as encouraging everyone to display their photo on their posts (as an 'avatar') would make it place-ish for me. Not going to happen, though, in the public forum, where many are reluctant even to give their names.

auriel · Apr 23, 2008

you are too intimately involving yourself in this endeavor; restrict your intercourse here to sage and corrective administration; the posessions of the great should not encumber but free one- offer it up, princess!

lindsay · Apr 23, 2008

Thinking about Lise's comments, as I always do. . .

The Yi says it many times:
利有攸往 - "favorable to have someplace to go"

I don't feel that way about Clarity. I get tired of the endless wrangling, lecturing, sniping, posturing, and opinionated talk. Of the false experts and silly slackers. Of the interminable casual chat and chronic deafness. Sometimes I wonder, isn't there some other way we can connect with each other on a subject of mutual interest? Isn't it possible to learn and create and build? Writing to Clarity feels like writing letters on the beach. Everyday the tide comes in, and everyday we start over. Why bother?

Yes, this is a free, unmoderated, open forum. But that is all it is. Most of my contacts with real people in the real world are more satisfying. Certainly more polite. The average I Ching book is far more rewarding. Certainly more informed. You can all congratulate yourselves on hanging around here, but nevertheless the gruel is pretty thin.

I would pay for something better.

Lindsay

maremaria · Apr 23, 2008

an example the way I see "place" : http://www.yijing.nl It feels like "home" . I can hear a heart beating there.

Can't think of a "place"/ forum example

fkegan · Apr 23, 2008

hilary said:
Your ideas blend interestingly with what Ben was suggesting about forum descriptions, headers, etc. (I'm looking into what I can add.) Do they make a 'place'? Not sure. Places for me are pretty much made of people, especially online. Something as simple as encouraging everyone to display their photo on their posts (as an 'avatar') would make it place-ish for me. Not going to happen, though, in the public forum, where many are reluctant even to give their names.

Hi Hilary,
First there is a new thread on shared readings from a fellow who describes himself as lost and having lost everything...perhaps you could check it out and post something to him.
http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?p=67755#post67755

Back to this thread...

A place apparently is different things for different people. Not sure I want to put my photo on my posts, though I have put my best photo into my profile. I would suggest in the alternative more of a personal profile capacity where folks could put what they wish to share about themselves (with an intro somewhere on where and how to access that for those of us who don't automatically know that).

The sense of place can be built in two ways--one like LiSe's site where all of her offerings are displayed or at least available from her homepage. It takes a while to figure out everything that is here at Clarity, and often a question comes up on a thread and the post comes back try this link to another Clarity page directly and exactly on point. A page of what there is and why it is of interest to Yi folks would be helpful for all.

The second way to build a sense of place is to focus upon the community. In general now the community is a set of open forums with threads and we learn about one another as we post and reply and find our ideas and other buttons pushed by the interchange. This avenue (Tao, maybe?) would begin with your personal decision what is the place of other folks in your domain and how do you wish to influence the community and its open access to the abundance of the Internet.

Frank

Tony_L · Apr 23, 2008

hilary said:
Common sense says that it's a shockingly bad idea to have a free forum where people give away readings and information on a site where I'm trying to sell these things. Meng says things that are subtler than that, but also suggests it does me no good.
So the Dispersing (now of my readings journal) continues -
Question I asked Yi last month:
'What effect does this great free forum have on my business?'Yi says 14.1.2.3.5 leading to 12.
This suggests to me that whatever good sense may say, this community has the potential to do wonders for Clarity. Also that it isn't doing so right now, because of 12-ish things (like my not being here enough - something I'm working on!).

This thread has gotten rather lengthy with replies that lead in many directions. Here are a few thoughts.
Regarding giving away free readings and information being a "shockingly bad idea," I would disagree. A survey of other sites that sell readings indicates that giving away free briefer or less detailed readings increases interest in the product and can produce a desire for a more thoroughgoing professional reading. Here are two examples of sites that have been around for a long time apparently successfully selling divinations of different types:

http://astro.com and
http://tarot.com

Regarding 14.1.2.3.5 > 12, there may not be a linear time sequence from 14 to 12. In fact, 12 may be the background or matrix of your question, what you are worried about rather than what is going to happen. If this view is correct, then the Yi is saying: "In the context of 12 (stagnation, standstill, obstruction, blocked communication, etc.), the way to proceed is 14 (pursuing a great idea, organizing, speading your wealth, etc.). All the lines of 14 are fairly positive. The yin line in the 5th position is often taken as advice to remain humble despite great resources. Line 3 may be advice to connect with someone more expert than yourself (a "son of heaven") to advance your aspirations. In line 2 your are able to advance despite your heavy load (12 may be the load you are carrying just now). Line 1 promises no error.

Hope this is of some use.

Tony

maremaria · Apr 23, 2008

fkegan said:
The sense of place can be built in two ways--one like LiSe's site where all of her offerings are displayed or at least available from her homepage.

Just need to clarify that I didn't meant the way this site is designed althought I like it. I meant the taste is left after a visit there.

hilary · Apr 24, 2008

Yes - you can't visit LiSe's site without getting a powerful sense of who she is. (Though you can certainly leave with no idea of how much is there - you have to scan the hexagram pages closely to find all the little links to hidden gems!) Forums become 'places' in a different way, I think.

I think there's a mod available for Vbulletin to add more detail to personal profiles. Actually, there are lots that could help in various ways, and enhance a modest paying membership. (Especially if I can get them to apply to individual usergroups... I expect that's possible... and if they don't add too much load to our already-creaking database...) I don't envisage everyone (hi, Lindsay) leaping at the chance to fill out a social-media-type profile, but how about a 'save thread as pdf' option, for instance?

Tony, thanks for your valiant efforts to bring us back to the reading. I also see 12 as a background/matrix - not just subjective perception, though, but also various kinds of 'obstruction' and not connecting/ communicating. Me with forum (at the time the reading was cast), forum with site, that kind of thing.

It's 20 to 1 in the morning. When did that happen?? And why don't I have a sleeping smilie?

See you tomorrow...

Sparhawk · Apr 24, 2008

lindsay said:
Of the false experts and silly slackers.

Hey!!!

mudpie · Apr 24, 2008

lindsay said:
I don't feel that way about Clarity. I get tired of the endless wrangling, lecturing, sniping, posturing, and opinionated talk. Of the false experts and silly slackers. Of the interminable casual chat and chronic deafness. Sometimes I wonder, isn't there some other way we can connect with each other on a subject of mutual interest? Isn't it possible to learn and create and build? Writing to Clarity feels like writing letters on the beach. Everyday the tide comes in, and everyday we start over. Why bother?

Yes, this is a free, unmoderated, open forum. But that is all it is. Most of my contacts with real people in the real world are more satisfying. Certainly more polite. The average I Ching book is far more rewarding. Certainly more informed. You can all congratulate yourselves on hanging around here, but nevertheless the gruel is pretty thin.

I would pay for something better.

Lindsay

I think this is an interesting remark. It makes me think that a forum/discussion board should never be a paid-for deal in any case. This forum does not stick to hard and fast rules, it isnt just a place for experts, real or imagined, and if it was only for experts, and academic type I Ching dicussion, I think it would quickly become boring. It is not exactly a socially satisfying place, it is more like a chat around the water-cooler, at this point.

I will say the archives have a whole lot of interesting stuff in them, I have read some really wonderful stuff there. I find it refreshing that there is no "forum lingo" that one needs to adhere to, and because of this some of the discussions in the past were very interesting indeed, going in all kinds of directions. I like what getojack said on another thread.."just a place to practice your sparring skills, learn a little, teach a little..enjoy the journey"
Sometimes the road is very long before you happen on to something really engaging, honest and startling, but that is how everyday life is, as well. It cant always be high points.......and even agreement and "growth" has a saturation point with any one particular group.

(BTW, one of the more recent engaging, honest and startling points for me was the discussion on educational reform. I found that fascinating and grounds for private research and thought on my part...it wasnt necessarly about the I Ching...........it became an argument between two members, unfortunately...or maybe not: if they hadnt been arguing so vigorously, there might not have been so many meaty things exchanged. This was an example of the kind of reason I have for enjoying Clarity. Different people and different topics pop up unexpectedly all the time.)

Like I said before, I think the way the forum is frequented and viewed so frequently is a PLUS for Clarity, it has a pull........hilary might just need to sharpen her marketing of her services, highlight them more clearly without pointing to the 'freestuff" first..........and let the forum be as is is, attracting people into the atmosphere of her products.

meng · Apr 24, 2008

Lindsay, your sardonic rants always crack me up, and clears the air between my ears. :bows:

meng · Apr 24, 2008

There are few who understand the concept of conversation, where you swing from each other’s vine.

What effect does this forum have on Clarity as a whole?

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One of those men your mother warned you about...

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