What effect does this forum have on Clarity as a whole?

[heylise]

Really loved Lindsay's post. I always admire your way of being painfully honest without getting personal or hurting anyone.

For me a 'Place' is where I feel comfortable. This forum has lots of good things, but it is not comfortable. It is like talking around the watercooler yes, or even talking in the street. It can be nice to talk there, you learn a lot, but you have to be on guard. Avoid some situations, some people, and so on. There are streets you don't enter. I haven't been here, in the SharedReadingsStreet, since a very long time. I came for this thread because Meng told me about it.

I'd love to share things about Yi which seem to be a bit too vulnerable for the street. Like the thread about magic. It was not a bad thread at all, but the initial question got lost because it was too subtle for the street. Or what Denis touched on very briefly, the Yi being organized like fractals. You can only discuss such things when people listen to what is meant, even if it is said in a clumsy way, instead of attacking the words. "But" is a very common normal word and can be very useful, but it can kill this subtle sounding.

And a Place has a face of its own. But how.. I have to think a lot about that. If what I feel is really how it looks, or if it is about the things which are there or maybe the people. I am sure about one thing: Hilary’s presence. A Place is somebody’s place. There are some others who can fill in part of that as well, it is a quality they simply happen to have. But Hilary herself is essential.

I think in a real Place you can also sell things. I have no market experience or knowledge at all, I just imagine how I would react myself. I bought a course which Hilary had written, simply because she said such interesting things in the forum that I wanted the rest as well. All of it.

LiSe

 

[ben_s]

I like Tony's insight, using 12 as the background or context, and 14 as what can be done for the way out of the stagnation. That makes more sense to me than my assuming the simplistic literal view of "14 turns into 12."

Lise:

I bought a course which Hilary had written, simply because she said such interesting things in the forum that I wanted the rest as well. Everything.

That's Taoist marketing at its best, isn't it? An effortless flow.

 

[hilary]

Taoist marketing?


I think that more listening and less 'but' tend to happen naturally when people pay for something. So it's probably worthwhile including a private forum with the paying membership just for that, even if it doesn't have a specific topic that isn't already covered 'out here'.

I have no market experience or knowledge at all, I just imagine how I would react myself.

Which I think is harder to do than generic 'marketing-think'.

 

[ben_s]

Taoist marketing?

You bet! Here's an expert at it. (Actually he practices a Sufi spiritual path, but his advice is appropriate for a Taoist too.) http://www.heartofbusiness.com/

I wish I'd thought of Silver earlier. His work is all about how to have on open heart to spiritual wisdom, and "How to gently lead people into becoming customers, without chasing them, or exhausting yourself." His guidebook and class might be ideal for you. In addition, the way he sells his guidebook and class might also be ideal for you. More importantly, he could help you have the same peaceful, spiritual, heart-centered approach to profit that works well for him. Very Taoist.

Weiss, on the other hand, is a Confucian marketer. His books, translated to Chinese, would probably say: "The superior man sets the empire in order. Through the force of his will, he maximizes value chain profitability and synergizes the team, therefore his own pockets are well supplied with funds."

 

[ben_s]

Frank's comment about "clear goal and intent"

In one of the threads about your marketing - I'm having a hard time keeping track of them - Frank pointed out, "Organization and management requires a clear goal and intent." In my opinion, Hilary, I think the lack of clarity of intent is the reason for your uncertainty about what to do next.

If you had plenty of money from sharing the Yi, and that money didn't come from the forum, would you support the forum for free? Does the forum need to pay for itself financially, no matter what? Do you look at the forum as a key way to attract clients for personal readings? If you knew you couldn't fail, and the money flowed in, would you still want to change the forum or add a members-only section?

You're certainly willing to adapt to the opportunities that you see - as was the cat in the fishbowl video. Everything I read about business success describes the combination of three things: your passion, your talents, and the opportunities inherent in your circumstances. If you are at the right place, the market brings you potential customers just like the river brings you potential splashes of water. If it's painful, you're doing something wrong.

Your passion and talent are equally important to bring you to the opportunities. To say, "I'll look first at the current market, based on my skills, and set aside my passion for now" is to say, "I'll hop on just one leg so I get to the river faster." The river's location is important, of course. Equally important is that you use both feet to get there - your talent, and the passion of your vision. The more passion and clarity in your vision, the better your progress.

 

[ben_s]

Rosada's "train the trainers" idea

I can't find the reference right now, but I read about another consultant who provides specialized advice to small businesses. He typically does about eight projects, at around $2,000 each. These are projects that almost anyone could do, with a step by step roadmap, but most of his clients are too busy to do everything themselves. For the money, the consultant defines and completely implements all the steps.

Some clients would like his help, but can't afford him. For these clients, he offers a workshop format. About ten clients each pay a total fee of $1,000 for two workshops a month over three months. Clients get a workbook, and classroom instruction. In the workshops, he goes over the steps required for implementation. Then the business owners discuss how they can each do the steps themselves. At the next workshop, they check back, he clarifies and they learn how to do the next self-help project. Of course, sometimes the clients themselves can get each other unstuck.

I was reminded of this when I read Rosada's "train the trainers" suggestion. Perhaps for a reduced fee, people could join the Clarity forums where only paid subscribers have access, and your group of trained advisors serve as moderators. You could check in occasionally, keep an eye on things, and have a private forum for the trainers. This would give an intermediate level of service for people who aren't ready for your one on one readings.

All kinds of things are possible, but it starts with your own clarity about your vision, mission and purpose - not as marketing buzzwords, but a heartfelt connection. Once you have built your castle in the air, as Thoreau put it, your work is not lost. You have plenty of people eager to help you add the foundations under them. But nobody else can define, for you, what heartfelt dream you should have.

 

[meng]

There's an entire industry of small business consultants. And lots of ways to spend money to be told how to make money. The best advise is usually the simplest, which goes directly to where it hurts. It's also the least listened to. Go figure.

 

[hilary]

You know Mark Silver too? Have you joined the Tent? That's a beautiful community - a real 'place' - and full of wise people. Not all of Mark's system is the perfect 'fit' for me (I've an idea he thinks I should remove the words 'I Ching' from the first several pages of the site), but the Tent definitely is.

In one of the threads about your marketing - I'm having a hard time keeping track of them...

You're not the only one

... - Frank pointed out, "Organization and management requires a clear goal and intent." In my opinion, Hilary, I think the lack of clarity of intent is the reason for your uncertainty about what to do next.

Huh??!?

My intent couldn't be clearer. I know exactly what I want to give. What I don't know is how to give it. Think hexagram 60: I know the nourishment I want to offer, but not how to cook it to make it palatable.

This is obviously a really, really hard thing to convey...

If you had plenty of money from sharing the Yi, and that money didn't come from the forum, would you support the forum for free? Does the forum need to pay for itself financially, no matter what?

Yes, of course I would, it's what I've been doing for years; no, of course it doesn't.

Do you look at the forum as a key way to attract clients for personal readings?

No. A few people move from free to paid readings, and vice versa, but there's only a very small overlap between the 'free' and 'paid' groups.

I do look at the forum as a key group of people who are interested in studying and deepening their own relationship with Yi, not just 'getting a reading.' I don't have to persuade anyone here that divination is real, or that it's more than telling the future, or that it's worth an investment of time and effort. So the free membership as a whole, not least the forum, is a key way to attract customers to the course, class, and any product/ service where I'm teaching divination. Or at least, if it isn't, what are my chances of getting anyone else interested?

If you knew you couldn't fail, and the money flowed in, would you still want to change the forum or add a members-only section?

Change the forum, no. I started out this discussion with no thought of changing anything about it - but the initial response I got was that only the forum is worth paying for. So - since I still really, really don't want to charge for it - maybe some enhancements to the forum, concentrating on what people value about it (personal connections, reservoir of information), would also be worth paying for. Well - 11 people think so.

I've already promised a members-only section to class members, at least from June-December this year, so I actually have no choice: that has to be created and offered, even if no-one else is going to sign up. But it's one of those things I would love for people to want!

I want people to be interested in divination as a practice, as a way of bringing about real life change eek, and I feel the best way to support that is not just with a single download, or a single reading, but with an ongoing service. Hence mentoring, and hence my idea for the larger-scale membership, which would aim to give the same kind of support I provide through mentoring, but with a mix of group support and pre-written information. I imagine casting your reading, entering it at the site, and opening up a stream of information/ inspiration/ searching questions/ guidance that would keep you in touch with that reading for a week. And having support from a small group, too - mastermind style, maybe - that would hold your reading in mind for you and help you to live it out.

And on the one hand this is a vision that grips and inspires me... and on the other hand, all the evidence suggests that no one else wants it at all. In fact, an attempt a few years back to create a 'Yi mastermind' as a preliminary stage to just this fell flat because those involved found they couldn't spare the time for it.

There's no problem defining the heartfelt dream, no problem getting excited about designing ways that I find inspiring to bring it about. The problem's a complete, hexagram-12-level disconnect with what people actually want. Maybe that's because I don't have anything to offer anyone. (Yes, Bruce, this is exactly where it hurts!) But if there is something I can give - beyond readings, where I hit an emotional-energy ceiling long before it becomes a viable income - then I need to bridge that gap. (And we know what bridges the gap between 12 and 14.)

 

[dobro p]

Thinking about Lise's comments, as I always do. . .

The Yi says it many times:
利有攸往 - "favorable to have someplace to go"

I don't feel that way about Clarity. I get tired of the endless wrangling, lecturing, sniping, posturing, and opinionated talk. Of the false experts and silly slackers. Of the interminable casual chat and chronic deafness. Sometimes I wonder, isn't there some other way we can connect with each other on a subject of mutual interest? Isn't it possible to learn and create and build? Writing to Clarity feels like writing letters on the beach. Everyday the tide comes in, and everyday we start over. Why bother?

Yes, this is a free, unmoderated, open forum. But that is all it is. Most of my contacts with real people in the real world are more satisfying. Certainly more polite. The average I Ching book is far more rewarding. Certainly more informed. You can all congratulate yourselves on hanging around here, but nevertheless the gruel is pretty thin.

I would pay for something better.

Lindsay

I'll see your weariness and raise you a wry smile.

This is a forum for the I Ching, which means it's a forum for something occult, which means it's going to be populated with a ton of eccentrics, nutjobs, and blowholes, with occasional flashes of real insight from the more informed eccentrics, plus a sense of community and camaraderie even. That's what I get from this place, anyway - a sense of belonging, regular entertainment, and regular help with my I Ching studies. So on the one hand, when you say "Sometimes I wonder, isn't there some other way we can connect with each other on a subject of mutual interest?" I'd invite you to consider that connecting with each other on a subject of mutual interest is exactly what happens here a lot of the time for a lot of people here, and I'd invite you to wonder why you don't feel that happens here. And on the other hand, when you talk about "false experts and silly slackers" I'd say that it's even worse than you describe . My take on it is: eccentrics, nutjobs, and blowholes. Yeah, the blowholes are irritating, but I find the nutjobs entertaining and the eccentrics birds of a feather.

Finally, would I pay for something more dedicated and sincere, more focussed and less 'internetic'? You bet your trigrammatic bottom I would. But it would have to be the real thing, real sangha.

 

[dobro p]

Oh - and a response to Lise's idea that this forum isn't a real 'place' in the sense that a physical location is a real place: my feeling is that the internet has real places and real people, but that this sort of interaction isn't everybody's cup of tea, or not their favorite blend of tea anyway. I interact with people on and off the internet, and I learn from each type of interaction - slowly, but I learn, and at about the same pace. So for me, this place is fine; for Lise, less so. And where Lise gets compassionately upset at some of the wrangling that takes place here (that's my impression of her reaction, anyway) and where Lindsay gets weary of it, I'm pretty comfortable with it - I take it as part and parcel of life on the internet, the same way you accept noise and pollution as part and parcel of life in the big city. My point is this: Clarity is a completely useful 'place' for some people, not for others. It can't be all things to all people. And so maybe, Hilary, you ought to consider something to offer the people who are less than satisfied with what the site is as it stands now. If you could come up with something that works, it would be something I'd like to be part of, cuz I think it would be very, very interesting. (I wish I could have joined your course; but the meditation retreat was a higher priority for me - otherwise I would have been part of it.)

 

[dobro p]

There are few who understand the concept of conversation, where you swing from each other’s vine.

I love it when you talk dirty.

 

[maremaria]

Re: the “place”.

Thinking the difference between how we behave when we are quests in a friend’s house for the weekend and how when we stay in a hotel room. In the first case we-the guests – take care of the home, cook, make the beds, and do the dishes. We are all responsible. In a hotel we don’t do that. We pay and don’t feel responsible for those things. It’s someone else’s responsibility. The hotel’s owner is paid to clean our mess. A friend of mine owns a little hotel. She has told me that a considerable number of clients saw disrespect for the place and for the other quests.

I wonder how this forum will change if there will be a membership fee

 

[hollis]

Hence mentoring, and hence my idea for the larger-scale membership, which would aim to give the same kind of support I provide through mentoring, but with a mix of group support and pre-written information. I imagine casting your reading, entering it at the site, and opening up a stream of information/ inspiration/ searching questions/ guidance that would keep you in touch with that reading for a week. And having support from a small group, too - mastermind style, maybe - that would hold your reading in mind for you and help you to live it out.

I would pay for something like that, I did not know you had offered it before. And, as it requires some trust to expose personal issues and stories, a paid membership may be the way to ensure a level of seriousness and privacy.

Also, I would buy the concordance you talked about in your blog.

 

[fkegan]

Taoist business...

Taoist marketing?

You bet! Here's an expert at it. (Actually he practices a Sufi spiritual path, but his advice is appropriate for a Taoist too.) http://www.heartofbusiness.com/

I wish I'd thought of Silver earlier. His work is all about how to have on open heart to spiritual wisdom, and "How to gently lead people into becoming customers, without chasing them, or exhausting yourself." His guidebook and class might be ideal for you. In addition, the way he sells his guidebook and class might also be ideal for you. More importantly, he could help you have the same peaceful, spiritual, heart-centered approach to profit that works well for him. Very Taoist.

Weiss, on the other hand, is a Confucian marketer. His books, translated to Chinese, would probably say: "The superior man sets the empire in order. Through the force of his will, he maximizes value chain profitability and synergizes the team, therefore his own pockets are well supplied with funds."

Hi Ben,
I wonder what your idea of Taoism might be?

There is a strong component of empirical observation combined with inward-focus upon releasing expectations (so you flow with the currents of the Tao or context).

Sufism and Taoism, when they tell stories share some paradoxical elements, though for Taoism that is just an alternative to the Buddha's refusal to speak when asked Yes/No type questions.

Traditionally, Taoists were unemployed or at least not having official and honorable employment working for the government. They did more menial and service oriented jobs with a good attitude. More interested in the Greek model of wealth--he whose needs are far less than he has is wealthy.

Hilary--

My intent couldn't be clearer. I know exactly what I want to give. What I don't know is how to give it. Think hexagram 60: I know the nourishment I want to offer, but not how to cook it to make it palatable.

I can't relate hexagram 60 to cooking or nutrition. Could you explain?

To me hex 60 is the final, quiescent exemplar of Divine action impacting human life--the water fits into the Lake and doesn't flood or disappear--the miracle that allows life to continue by the stable situations we can rely upon.

Generally folks trying to sell stuff are looking for a clear need folks show they are willing to pay to have serviced.

If you have a clear product you wish the right kind of folks to find accept, like looking for a good home for a litter of kittens, you need more of an interview process.

Or in the alternative, if as you have mentioned elsewhere, you are looking for clients who you can help to come to understanding and appreciation through the Yi and your guidance so that they are both grateful to pay you for your benefit to their lives and also give you back the Divine gift of their enlightenment and personal development....

I suspect you would do well to consult the Yi itself about what is going on for you now.

As a general promotional and business web site idea, I would suggest you create an example client relationship. Email Yourself with your situation as you would hope a good client would. Work totally in email so you have a clear, hard record of each step and thus don't let yourself skip over anything thinking it is so clear already you don't need to bother making it explicit.

Work through your entire client counsel process. Hopefully, it will be a great and obvious success and you can both put the results into practice and post the email record as an example of what you can do with your Yi counsel. If a problem comes up, then you have your insight into what needs to be corrected...

Frank

 

[hilary]

I can't relate hexagram 60 to cooking or nutrition. Could you explain?

Ah - sorry, that was pretty obscure without 'showing my workings'. It's 'bitter articulating' that can't last, or doesn't allow for constancy - not 'wrong', not 'illogical', not 'unconventional', but bitter - the way it tastes. That chimes with the nuclear hexagram - 27 - which it shares with 59. So both are literally 'about' nutrition: dispersing obstacles to the flow of nourishment, and recreating or 'regrowing' natural channels. (I think the Image text was written by people with the development of irrigation systems in mind.) That's the general idea.

 

[fkegan]

Explicit and implicit...

Ah - sorry, that was pretty obscure without 'showing my workings'. It's 'bitter articulating' that can't last, or doesn't allow for constancy - not 'wrong', not 'illogical', not 'unconventional', but bitter - the way it tastes. That chimes with the nuclear hexagram - 27 - which it shares with 59. So both are literally 'about' nutrition: dispersing obstacles to the flow of nourishment, and recreating or 'regrowing' natural channels. (I think the Image text was written by people with the development of irrigation systems in mind.) That's the general idea.

Hi Hilary,
Are you referring to hex 60.6? How does the nutrition or non-bitter taste refer to your clear intent of what you want to present or give?

Or more to the point... Are you sure everything is so crystal clear for you, it's just other folks who are opaque about how they need to be served?

Frank

 

[mudpie]

All these threads interwoven on the same topic gets confusing. I love Luis' new signature. You guys crack me up with the signatures, what's next? I sense a new kind of competition evolving, but Luis is winning the prize thus far. I cant even figure out how one puts a signature on at all......?

 

[mudpie]

Never mind, I figured it out

 

[hilary]

Nice one, Listener.

Hi Hilary,
Are you referring to hex 60.6? How does the nutrition or non-bitter taste refer to your clear intent of what you want to present or give?

No, to 60.0, the Judgement. Wilhelm/Baynes says 'galling', which only slightly obscures the reference to taste. Then see also line 5.

The contrast I was trying to draw - maybe with a bad choice of illustration - was between knowing what I want to give, but not how to make it acceptable/palatable. If I cook up something nutritious, and most people think it tastes unpleasant, I won't have many takers. Maybe a few purchasing out of curiosity or goodwill, but not running to tell their friends. Of course, if what's wanted turns out to be something that leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth, that too 'does not allow constancy' - on my part, this time. What's needed is a mutual agreement - and that happens more easily through conversation.

Or more to the point... Are you sure everything is so crystal clear for you, it's just other folks who are opaque about how they need to be served?

No. There's one thing I'm clear about - the big picture, the calling, the 'mandate' if you like - and one thing I'm not, namely how to translate that into something people want.

On the contrary, I'm pretty sure that people are clear on how they need to be served. For most, that doesn't translate into an ability to answer the question, 'What would you buy?' - that's just not how the mind works. It's more a case of 'I'll know it when I see it.'

I'm going to head back to the original 'Help!' thread for a 'what next?' post soon.

 

[fkegan]

Is sugar needed to make medicine palatable?

Hi Hilary,

Gia-Fu translated the Judgment of hex 60 as:
CURBING. BLISS. SEVERE CURBING. DO NOT BE ZESTFUL. Curbing is bliss, strong and gentle distinguished, and the strong gains the center. Severe curbing, do not be zestful because the Tao is exhausted, be happy while walking in danger. Confront the situation with restraint, be fair and see things through. Because heaven and earth are regular the four seasons are made. Devise the systems in natural order, not wasting money or harming people.

Although his English words for hex 60.5:...

SWEET RESTRAINT. LUCK. ACTION IS ADMIRABLE. You have luck because what comes from your heart is never bitter.

refers to bitter and sweet.


In terms of making nutrition palatable to strange kids with peculiar tastes... that I can identify with well. Generally, it is the loving expressed and the garnishes to make the dish look fun which do the trick.

Frank

 

[steve]

I do actually have a website design business, so i maybe of some help
I dreamt about the answer

Its donations or tidings,,if we want this all to survive..
My third eye has exploded from my seat
I walk down the street and i feel different,,than who i was 3 months ago
People see it too , they are more calm

what is this return to who you are are "its incredible"

So much i could say about this forum, its um a band of arguing angels

It is a spiritual place
Like Hillary said these are for the times when things are not so good, when i first came here, i saw that on the wall

So may the the road always rise up to meet you,and may the sun shine softly on your face,and may the wind be at your back
Steve

 

[ben_s]

a band of arguing angels

 

[ben_s]

Frank,

I wonder what your idea of Taoism might be?

I'd love to discuss that and gain from your wisdom (& the wisdom of others). I'll start a new thread about that soon in the Open Space section of the forum.

 

[ben_s]

Hilary,

I haven't signed up for Mark Silver's program. I probably will soon. I'm inspired by what he says, including his excellent email newsletter. We are working with a comparable business mentor/life coach in our own local area.

Once I get untangled from my own client from hell, I'll regain more time to contribute to your marketing discussion. Might be a few days of lighter posts here.

I feel that there are several ways to answer your original question,
what effect does this forum have on Clarity as a whole?

1. Introduces some people to you
2. Provides a trickle of sales
3. Helps to build up your credibility as an expert
4. Otherwise, Clarity as a whole (your business selling your expertise) is not affected that much by the forum

So maybe a more useful question would be,
What are good time-efficient ways to build up your business, without having to make the forum provide more than a trickle of sales?

If that new question could be answered well, then "what effect does this forum have" would just have this answer: "It provides Hilary a fun, interesting change of pace for her day."

In any event, I'm looking forward to your new thread and I'll catch up on all the posts here before I join your new thread.