Clarity,
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Duh, it's not an error. If the 新編甲骨文字典, 金文常用字典, 王力古漢語字典, Karlgren's GSR, Schuessler's A Dictionary of Early Zhou Chinese and Etymological Dictionary of Old Chinese, 金文大字典, 殷墟甲骨學, all say that da 大 'great' is among its meanings, then it is unlikely to be an error. It might be greater than great, but nevertheless 'great'. That the Tuan text consequently reads 元 as 大 only confirms this.I never liked glossing Yuan as Da, although this error is made even in the Wings.
Zhen occurs only 48 times in all The Thirteen Classics (apart from Zhou Yi), some are used as a verb in connection with divination, the rest means correct. In some cases zhen means loyal, but in the sense of acting correct. I believe that zhen came to be used for divination in the sense ”finding out what is the correct way to act” by divination or ”to correct things” with the help of divination.
Hilary, I agree that “determination” has a delicious ambiguity in English that seems to capture the multivalent nature of 貞 rather well. Still, these days, after seeing so much divergence and wrangling over the “original” meaning of graphs, I tend to rely on traditional interpretations.
If you were to squeeze the traditional Yi like a lemon, you would end up with a large glass of Confucian lemonade. Some say it's nourishing, some say it's not to their taste - but all of us who use the Yi are daily being forced to drink up! It is almost impossible to squeeze the lemon without getting the juice.
Lindsay
Luis:... if that is correct, then the character appears a disproportionate 111 times in the received text of the Yijing... then, as Bradford points above, the character must be interpreted in that context and from the perspective of what the book was originally: a divination manual. ... It was very common to divine many times about a single issue ... 3.5 is perhaps a case where excessive divination... is advised against.
That the Tuan text consequently reads 元 as 大 only confirms this.
Lars:...
H3,2: 屯如邅如乘馬班如匪寇婚媾女子貞不字十年乃字
I always use the received version with no change, it makes sense to me.
Wanting to propose marriage he starts out riding around [her house] in a four-horse carriage [showing off] like a bandit or robber. But a [chaste] women acting correctly will not agree, only after long time she will.
I'd say this is perfectly in line with the overall meaning of the hexagram, that we are in the beginning and should not rush things, but others may translate it in a completely different context. This makes it possible to find valid examples for nearly any argument.
I think the discussion becomes much more realistic when we discuss real translations, so thanks for this one.Lars:
The translation that you said «perfectly in line» is not a loyal translation. Neither loyal with the text nor loyal with the reader. It gives the sense that only words between brackets were added in translation, but the main part of words without brackets are not in the chinese quoted text.
Wanting to propose marriage he starts out riding around [her house] in a four-horse carriage [showing off] like a bandit or robber. But a [chaste] women acting correctly will not agree, only after long time she will.
Lars:... Only I think my own sentence is as loyal and correct as can be, but tun needs to be seen in a special Zhou Yi light. Here is without brackets and two glosses:
Wanting to propose marriage he starts out riding around in a four-horse carriage like a bandit or robber. But a women acting correctly will not agree, only after long time she will.
邅 zhan Karlgren 148i and HDCD and Guoyu Cidian “turn around, revolve”
...
Lars:... The overall meaning of the hexagram Tun屯 is a good example... Tun is in the beginning of Zhou Yi and I understand the lines to describe different levels of strategies for starting or building up things from the bottom:
1. Consolidate and get allies
2. Take things slowly (don’t barge ahead when you want to marry a lady)
3. Don’t go ahead without guidance
4. After a while of doing the preceding, now you can act.
5. Now that you can go ahead, don’t take too large steps.
6. Go ahead full speed.
...
If I take this view and try to translate zhen 貞 as ”to divine” it just doesn’t fit the overall picture...
I´m saying that the yours is not a translation (be literal or literary) but a reelaboration, an interpretation of the original text.
I agree with you that the culture that produced the YI had nothing of primitive. I find highly improbable the scene of a lover driving a 4-HP car turning around the girl of his dreams, that, being chaste (say correct), reserve her yes for 10 years later.
Wanting to propose marriage he starts out riding around [her house] in a four-horse carriage [showing off] like a bandit or robber. But a [chaste] women acting correctly will not agree, only after long time she will.
In other words, what you do is choose the corners for the framework in which your translation must fit: the framework decides the context. Different frameworks lead to different contexts: if I don't assume that the lines of a hexagram describe 'six levels of action', then this will affect my translation. The Yi itself hardly gives context - there does not seem to be any coherence between the hexagrams, there is no story running through the text. Context is chosen by the translator, based on ideas and assumptions, it is hardly dictated by the text. You can choose to let trigram associations affect your translation, you can choose not to do that - the choice defines the translation. That doesn't change when you've had 'training in classical Chinese', in fact, such a training might become a burden because they teach you commonplaces like 'numbers like 10, 100, 10.000 etc. should not be taken literally'. The fact that there are hardly sinologists who try to study the Yi and translate it, might be a sign that any education in classical Chinese hardly helps in understanding this particular classic.The problem is that we have too little context if we see sentences and lines isolated. Anyone that have read many classic texts know that the key to finding the right meaning lies mostly in determining the context, because the meaning of ancient characters can turn like a dice and reveal new sides with different grades or aspects of the same dice. (...) I believe there is a gradual development of the six lines up through hexagrams, and also up through the 64 hexagrams. I try to find the context of the lines in this light. Tun is in the beginning of Zhou Yi and I understand the lines to describe different levels of strategies for starting or building up things from the bottom. (...) Six levels of action starting with basic level ending in the more extreme. Same in all hexagrams. (...) When I choose an english word for my translation, it will be influenced by which level and subject of the hexagram it has to describe.
It seems you are letting this idea that there is a parallel in the Yi affect your translation:1. An almost identical scene is described in Hou Han shu (in Dong Yi Liezhuan I think). A woman is to choose between a handsome wild man storming to her house showing off in front of her house, or a rich boring man from a fine family. She chose the wild one, but with reservations.
I have difficulties seeing the underlined portions in the Chinese original: there is no 'wanting to propose' in the text, I miss 匪, I don't see 'not agree' and 'she will', and the pregnancy seems to be aborted. To me this seems to go against the 'realistic meaning of characters' you are taught to adhere to in your lessons classical Chinese. This is what happens to most translators of the Yi (including me): once you have an opinion about a book, a text, line or paragraph, your translation will almost always be shaped according to that opinion, which you will see as a confirmation that your opinion/assumption/whatever is right. The assumption becomes an idee fixe, which sticks to the translation like a parasite who is taking over the host. And sooner or later there is no difference between the host and the parasite.Wanting to propose marriage he starts out riding around in a four-horse carriage like a bandit or robber. But a women acting correctly will not agree, only after long time she will.
I believe that Zhou Yi can be translated in a fluent language, and that the author could express very subtle ideas.
Lars:The training in classical Chinese I had were with one of the best and toughest teachers you will ever find. He criticized us severely if we did not make fluent sentences based on a realistic meaning of characters ...
... «Cautiously they assemble, mount their horses, and extend their ranks, as marauders, bent on plunder, to capture brides for themselves» After which follows the gloss: «Girls,correct, had no names till they were ten years old, after ten they were named».
T. W. KINGSMILL
From an article in China Review that I will try to apport assap.
Similarly, Zhen has the meaning of a
finding, a truth, an answer to a question, a specific divination or determination, or
the resolution of a doubt. But it also means to uphold this truth or determination,
to resolve to uphold this solution to the problem, to try or test it, to prove it (in the
original sense of prove). Resolution is a measure of the clarity of light in optics, as
well as a statement about firmness of purpose. And so Zhen is also glossed as
determination, persistence, resolve or verification. In the combination of these
meanings it might refer to something which exists on both sides of a Change, a bit
of continuity, something we can rely on or hang on to. - Bradford
I follow Shaughnessy's advice and refer to the core text as Zhou Yi, only the 450 lines, no more no less. I never spend time on Yijing as a whole. I don’t think there is much help to find in it with regard to translation of the core text.Hi Lars,
I hope you are not assuming there is AN AUTHOR of the Zhouyi that rendered a homogeneous, linear text. That would be a "contextual mirage."
I follow Shaughnessy's advice and refer to the core text as Zhou Yi, only the 450 lines, no more no less. I never spend time on Yijing as a whole. I don’t think there is much help to find in it with regard to translation of the core text.
I do indeed feel absolutely certain there were only one author of Zhou Yi.
But the work of writing these connections down can’t be done anyway. You have 384 single lines leading to a hexagram; that can be done. Next level is 320x2 lines (might also be done), next 256x3 lines (perhaps some), then 192x4, 128x5 and 64x6, totally 1344 connecting interpretations of rapidly increasing complexity. Impossible to comprehend, but this gives us a hint of the greatness of the mind of our single author of this work and why we are all so fascinated by it
But if we can just translate the 384 single lines so they lead to the next hexagram in a logical way, the picture will get a whole lot clearer with regards to our translation. In short we get a simple comprehensive context as framework.
I also discovered that if I translate this way the meaning of lines change in different combinations with hexagrams, but of course without changing their innate nature. (See example below).
Next post will be examples of my idea.
Example 2:
The first example was a situation where 43,3 was a bad thing. But like the same dice can show different sides with increasing numbers, lines can change with increasing qualities.
43,1: 壯于前趾往不勝為咎 Powerful, ahead, feet, set out, no, success, do, a mistake:
“If you set out with powerful steps, but win no success you commit a mistake.”
43,3 (see above) in combination with 43,1 has now become a good thing, what you ought to do. Because it leads to 47. I don’t translate 47 here, but it means to press yourself, not merely talk, but do the things you set out for, even if it is tough. Works very well with 43-3.
43,1+3>47 You are determined and must win success, although it is tough, you must achieve what you said you wanted to do.
I would like to give an example with three lines, but as I said it gets harder the more lines there are. I hope you get my idea with just these two. Try yourself with other lines.
Hi Lars,
You must be familiar with the Jiashi Yilin, don't you? I mean, it is a different text and system, based on the YIjing, but follows a thought process similar to what you describe above.
Hi Lars,
Originally Posted by larsbo_c
I do indeed feel absolutely certain there were only one author of Zhou Yi.
Sparhawk: Curious, you base that on what evidence?
Hexagram 3,2 was a poorly chosen example by me, because tun it is not at all straight forward to translate. ...
字 agree (this is in my dictionaries especially for marriage agreement)
十年 long time
乃 then
字 agree
...
Hi Lars,
Curious, you base that on what evidence?
If there were more contributors and the text evolved over some time, or was compiled from many sources of oracle bone divinations or whatever there wouldn't have been this system of connections and development that I see so clearly.
Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
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