Best translation of 'zhen', 貞

[lindsay]

Ah, Luis, who can resist a good discussion about zhēn? I had to show up for that! I like the way many possibilities are being considered here.

Hilary, I agree that “determination” has a delicious ambiguity in English that seems to capture the multivalent nature of 貞 rather well. Still, these days, after seeing so much divergence and wrangling over the “original” meaning of graphs, I tend to rely on traditional interpretations. So, for the purpose of divination, I favor “to persist” and “persistence” as a translation for zhēn. “Persist” to me means “staying with what you think is right (correct)”. Granted, this eliminates the “finding out” aspect of zhēn, but I just think it works better on a practical level. I think you may have been saying the same thing in far fewer words.

Lise, as always, you seem to understand so well the spirit of ancient divination. In defense of zhēn as “finding out,” however, I think we have to look at the humans involved in divination, not the gods and spirits. For the humans, divination must have been a pretty deliberate way of finding out things, involving as it did sacrifices, rituals, professional diviners, lots of work and time and expense. Divination was not a casual exercise. It still isn’t in places like Africa and parts of South America.

Also, once a “determination” had been made by the spirits, the humans still had to work hard “to determine” what the spirits were telling them. This whole forum is a tribute to the fact that the Yi is somewhat less than straightforward in its answers. I believe the ancients had to work as hard as we do “to determine” the meaning of their answers. So maybe “determination” as “finding out” isn’t such a bad translation of zhēn after all.

However, I agree with you completely that once a person figured out what the spirits were saying, one was expected to accept their message as true and to obey their advice. One would be a fool not to. Compliance was definitely part of the ancient divination contract. There are many stories about people ignoring or misinterpreting oracles and suffering the consequences.

Thanks everyone! It’s been fun reading this thread.

Lindsay

 

[hmesker]

I never liked glossing Yuan as Da, although this error is made even in the Wings.

Duh, it's not an error. If the 新編甲骨文字典, 金文常用字典, 王力古漢語字典, Karlgren's GSR, Schuessler's A Dictionary of Early Zhou Chinese and Etymological Dictionary of Old Chinese, 金文大字典, 殷墟甲骨學, all say that da 大 'great' is among its meanings, then it is unlikely to be an error. It might be greater than great, but nevertheless 'great'. That the Tuan text consequently reads 元 as 大 only confirms this.

But I think we might better start an new thread on 元 for this discussion.

 

[lindsay]

Zhen occurs only 48 times in all The Thirteen Classics (apart from Zhou Yi), some are used as a verb in connection with divination, the rest means correct. In some cases zhen means loyal, but in the sense of acting correct. I believe that zhen came to be used for divination in the sense ”finding out what is the correct way to act” by divination or ”to correct things” with the help of divination.

One more comment on Lars's statement above. The Thirteen Classics is not just a random collection of ancient Chinese books. They are the books endorsed as canonical by the Confucian school. As one might expect, they are part of the Confucian Canon because they are thought to reinforce and amplify Confucian ideas and values.

One important Confucian idea is the the notion of "correctness" or "righteousness". Is it any wonder, then, that the Confucian interpretation of 貞 as "correct" would be included as a primary meaning in Chinese dictionaries? Indeed, Yi divination or "finding out" can be interpreted as an orthodox way of being "correct", since (1) it was endorsed (even authored) by the great Zhou sage-kings, (2) it involves salutary ritual, (3) it is based on the Laws of Heaven, and (4) it makes our actions subject to Heaven's Will.

If you were to squeeze the traditional Yi like a lemon, you would end up with a large glass of Confucian lemonade. Some say it's nourishing, some say it's not to their taste - but all of us who use the Yi are daily being forced to drink up! It is almost impossible to squeeze the lemon without getting the juice.

Lindsay

 

[Sparhawk]

Hilary, I agree that “determination” has a delicious ambiguity in English that seems to capture the multivalent nature of 貞 rather well. Still, these days, after seeing so much divergence and wrangling over the “original” meaning of graphs, I tend to rely on traditional interpretations.

It has the same ambiguity in Spanish and its usage is purely contextual. It mainly oscillates between "distinguishing/discerning/finding out" and "make a decision/establish the rules/stay the course after a decision."

Well, at some point in the discussion we branched out into etymology and semantics. If we take Hilary's title of the thread, "Best Translation of 'zhen', 貞", we had no choice to include semantics in the discussion. However, some of us, based on some of the statements made, focused on the etymology and origin of the character. If we keep that separation in mind (semantics vs etymology), then things are clearer. On the other hand, when it is said that a semantic "correct" for zhen1 is also the original/etymological meaning of the word, we have some grounds for argument as the statement is, IMHO, incorrect (no pun intended).

Now, don't ride into the setting sun again and stick around.

 

[Sparhawk]

If you were to squeeze the traditional Yi like a lemon, you would end up with a large glass of Confucian lemonade. Some say it's nourishing, some say it's not to their taste - but all of us who use the Yi are daily being forced to drink up! It is almost impossible to squeeze the lemon without getting the juice.

Lindsay

Ah, that explains so much about the sourness of Yixue students...

 

[charly]

I always wondered how a word meaning DIVINATION passed to mean PERSEVERANCE and ended having something to do with FEMALE CHASTITY.

Any connection among the three senses?

Looking for this character at Sears' Chineseetymology, we can see that:

• None of the bone characters has the upper component BONE DIVINATION the reported variants have only the lower SACRED VESSEL, in some cultures usually meaning a GODESS or a GREAT WOMAN.
  
• All the bronze and seal characters have the upper component, sometimes looking like a man with a big endowment, say a GREAT MAN.
  
• In the traditional character the lower component is said to depict a COWRY SHELL meaning not only FEMINITY but also MONEY / WEALTH.

Maybe it's pretty comprehensible the meaning of CHASTITY as the submission of FEMALE principle to the MALE principle.

Maybe in the beginings of the Changes there was some sort of GEOMANCY, maybe prehistoric chinese have COWRY DIVINATION as Africans did.

One thing is sure, maybe we do not need women for understanding the character ZHEN, but we DO NEED WOMEN for understandign the TUN hexagram, be translated as INITIAL TROUBLES or as STATIONING TROOPS.

(to be continued)

Yours,

Charly

 

[charly]

... if that is correct, then the character appears a disproportionate 111 times in the received text of the Yijing... then, as Bradford points above, the character must be interpreted in that context and from the perspective of what the book was originally: a divination manual. ... It was very common to divine many times about a single issue ... 3.5 is perhaps a case where excessive divination... is advised against.

Luis:

I like very much this statistical approach. It makes evident that the word belongs to the YI not to the classics.

The second hypothesis, I agree that seems to say that a little is good but big, maybe, too much. I don´t trust that speaking about FAT (1).

If speaking about garrisons, maybe a little army is good for mantain stationary while a big army needs to move for eating from the country.

Un abrazo,


Charly

________________________
(1) I wonder who is the FAT.

 

[bradford]

That the Tuan text consequently reads 元 as 大 only confirms this.

Hi Harmen.
Just to clarify - I believe it to be an error made by the authors of the Wings, or an error in understanding the Zhouyi. That's all I was saying. I wasn't talking about Yuan outside of a Zhouyi context. Possibly this was born of someone's discomfort with hyperbole, or they lost the sense that Yuan was pointing to something singular.
The Zhouyi authors clearly had the word Da in their vocabulary, and they didn't seem all that restrained about using it, whenever they wanted to refer to something that was great. It makes sense to me, then, that they would use a different word, like Yuan, when the notion of "great" didn't exactly fit what they were trying to convey. This decision was not respected by the authors of the Wings, as I believe it should have been.

 

[charly]

...
H3,2: 屯如邅如乘馬班如匪寇婚媾女子貞不字十年乃字
I always use the received version with no change, it makes sense to me.
Wanting to propose marriage he starts out riding around [her house] in a four-horse carriage [showing off] like a bandit or robber. But a [chaste] women acting correctly will not agree, only after long time she will.
I'd say this is perfectly in line with the overall meaning of the hexagram, that we are in the beginning and should not rush things, but others may translate it in a completely different context. This makes it possible to find valid examples for nearly any argument.

Lars:

Everibody has the right to translate at his own risk and understanding if reporting clearly when is he translating the received text or another text and when is making suppositions, interpolations or interpretations.

The translation that you said «perfectly in line» is not a loyal translation. Neither loyal with the text nor loyal with the reader. It gives the sense that only words between brackets were added in translation, but the main part of words without brackets are not in the chinese quoted text.

屯 tún​: garrison /to station soldiers / to store up / to gather //difficult / troubles /
如 rú: as / as if / such as /
邅 zhān: not making progress /hesitant / faltering / (4)
如 rú​: as / as if / such as /

乘 chéng: to ride / to mount / to take advantage of // four horse carrige /
馬 mǎ:​ horse / chess horse / knight in Western chess /
班 bān​: team / class / squad /
如 rú​: as / as if / such as /

匪 fěi​: bandit // not /
寇 kòu​: bandit /
婚 hūn​: to marry / marriage / to take a wife /
媾 gòu:​ to marry / to copulate /

女子 nǚ​zǐ​: woman / female / girls // lady desiring a son (?)
貞 zhēn​: divination / omen // loyal //chaste /
不 bù​: not / no /
字 zì: progeny // composed character as opposed to simple ones /

十年 shí​nián: ten years /
乃 nǎi:​ pregnant // thus / so / therefore / after // but / however /
字 zì​: progeny // composed character /


Only a sample of my own position:

屯 如 邅 如
soldiers-like (1) nervous-like
BRIGANTS NERVOUSLY

乘 馬 班 如
riding horses squad-like (2)
MOUNTED IN-GROUP

匪 寇 婚 媾
bandit (3) bandit wife-grabber to copulate
DAMNED BANDITS, FEMALE GRABBERS.
​

Of course, the acceptions for each character are only the most common, the text is not clear, but in the chinese text I don´t see but few words from the translation that you quote.

Yours,

Charly
____________________________
(1) something like soldiers from a garrison, but not true recruits, brigants. Also could be translated as DIFICULTLY (AND) NERVOUSLY, but the whole scene remains the same.
(2) something like a squad but not a regular military unit, say, a special unit or a gang.
(3) a reduplication for intensifying the sense, also can be translated as NO BANDITS but WIFE-GRABBERS.
(4) Lars added the Karlgren acceptions: turn around / revolving (thanks,Lars).

 

[charly]

What´s the connection between soldiers and bandits?

Maybe one is that both want all, as Simone Weil said (1), they want «all men as corpses, all women as slaves», valid for bronze age chineses no less than for bronze age greeks.

Charly

_____________________
(1) from «The Iliad or the Poem of Force»

 

[larsbo_c]

Lars:

The translation that you said «perfectly in line» is not a loyal translation. Neither loyal with the text nor loyal with the reader. It gives the sense that only words between brackets were added in translation, but the main part of words without brackets are not in the chinese quoted text.

I think the discussion becomes much more realistic when we discuss real translations, so thanks for this one.

Only I think my own sentence is as loyal and correct as can be, but tun needs to be seen in a special Zhou Yi light. Here is without brackets and two glosses:

Wanting to propose marriage he starts out riding around in a four-horse carriage like a bandit or robber. But a women acting correctly will not agree, only after long time she will.

邅 zhan Karlgren 148i and HDCD and Guoyu Cidian “turn around, revolve”

屯 tun basically means to accumulate. Garrison is an accumulation of soldiers, and is used in army context. Of course I can’t just translate it as “start out” without an explanation, I agree on that, sorry.The “start out” part is not really good but the idea is okay I think. Please see next post.

Wanting to propose marriage he starts out riding around [her house] in a four-horse carriage [showing off] like a bandit or robber. But a [chaste] women acting correctly will not agree, only after long time she will.

 

[larsbo_c]

There will often be a few different meanings of glosses, which should we choose? The problem is that we have too little context if we see sentences and lines isolated. Anyone that have read many classic texts know that the key to finding the right meaning lies mostly in determining the context, because the meaning of ancient characters can turn like a dice and reveal new sides with different grades or aspects of the same dice. A dice has six sides like a hexagram. The overall meaning of the hexagram Tun屯 is a good example: you can accumulate fat; gain weight. Or you can accumulate soldiers in a garrison. How can we find more sides of this dice? Only by determine the context. I believe there is a gradual development of the six lines up through hexagrams, and also up through the 64 hexagrams. I try to find the context of the lines in this light. Tun is in the beginning of Zhou Yi and I understand the lines to describe different levels of strategies for starting or building up things from the bottom:
1. Consolidate and get allies
2. Take things slowly (don’t barge ahead when you want to marry a lady)
3. Don’t go ahead without guidance
4. After a while of doing the preceding, now you can act.
5. Now that you can go ahead, don’t take too large steps.
6. Go ahead full speed.
Six levels of action starting with basic level ending in the more extreme. Same in all hexagrams.
When I choose an english word for my translation, it will be influenced by which level and subject of the hexagram it has to describe.
If I take this view and try to translate zhen 貞 as ”to divine” it just doesn’t fit the overall picture.
If zhen 貞, yuan元 and heng亨 is to be translated with more logic than previous attempts, we have to keep in mind that we need a context that goes beyond the isolated lines. Some translations gives the impression that the author was some kind of stone age man with very primitive superstitious believes. I believe that Zhou Yi can be translated in a fluent language, and that the author could express very subtle ideas.

 

[charly]

... Only I think my own sentence is as loyal and correct as can be, but tun needs to be seen in a special Zhou Yi light. Here is without brackets and two glosses:

Wanting to propose marriage he starts out riding around in a four-horse carriage like a bandit or robber. But a women acting correctly will not agree, only after long time she will.

邅 zhan Karlgren 148i and HDCD and Guoyu Cidian “turn around, revolve”
...

Lars:

You didn´t understand me. Maybe your idea is good, maybe it fits well in the whole hexagram context.

I´m not criticizing you for choosing one meaning or another for a given word or character.

I´m saying that the yours is not a translation (be literal or literary) but a reelaboration, an interpretation of the original text. There are even interpolated sequences without any basis on the text but in your interpretation of it.

I agree with you that the culture that produced the YI had nothing of primitive. I find highly improbable the scene of a lover driving a 4-HP car turning around the girl of his dreams, that, being chaste (say correct), reserve her yes for 10 years later.

It´s not matter of words and sense, I believe that the reader has the right to discern clearly in an translation what belongs to the original text and what to the interpretation of the translator.

From that poin of view is a generalized good practise to put between brackets all the words or sequences not literally in the original text (or another equivalent mean or indication).

Yours,

Charly

 

[charly]

... The overall meaning of the hexagram Tun屯 is a good example... Tun is in the beginning of Zhou Yi and I understand the lines to describe different levels of strategies for starting or building up things from the bottom:
1. Consolidate and get allies
2. Take things slowly (don’t barge ahead when you want to marry a lady)
3. Don’t go ahead without guidance
4. After a while of doing the preceding, now you can act.
5. Now that you can go ahead, don’t take too large steps.
6. Go ahead full speed.
...
If I take this view and try to translate zhen 貞 as ”to divine” it just doesn’t fit the overall picture...

Lars:

About TUN there is something interesting here:

http://www.hanzismatter.com/2005/02/chaos-question.html
From: Hanzi Smatter

About the lines are you speaking of all the hex. or just about H.3?

About zhen 貞 I use OMEN (following Richter) and fits pretty well for me. Why don´t try with an UNKNOWN mark such as «XXX» or with just arbitrary words like PIG, FOOL or WAR?

say:

→ Results of divination = OMEN : little OMEN lucky, a big OMEN disastrous.
→ Unknown = XXX: a little XXX lucky, a big XXX disastrous.
→ A PIG in the garden: a little PIG lucky, a big PIG disastrous.
→ A FOOL in the power: a little FOOL lucky, a big FOOL disastrous.
→ About love WARS: a little WAR lucky, a big WAR disastrous.

... A LITTLE, GOOD. TOO MUCH, BAD.

Infinite possibilities.

Yours,

Charly

 

[larsbo_c]

I´m saying that the yours is not a translation (be literal or literary) but a reelaboration, an interpretation of the original text.

I agree with you that the culture that produced the YI had nothing of primitive. I find highly improbable the scene of a lover driving a 4-HP car turning around the girl of his dreams, that, being chaste (say correct), reserve her yes for 10 years later.

Wanting to propose marriage he starts out riding around [her house] in a four-horse carriage [showing off] like a bandit or robber. But a [chaste] women acting correctly will not agree, only after long time she will.

The training in classical Chinese I had were with one of the best and toughest teachers you will ever find. He criticized us severely if we did not make fluent sentences based on a realistic meaning of characters.
I know we play around with words here, but I am dead serious about most parts of my translation.
1. An almost identical scene is described in Hou Han shu (in Dong Yi Liezhuan I think). A woman is to choose between a handsome wild man storming to her house showing off in front of her house, or a rich boring man from a fine family. She chose the wild one, but with reservations.
2. Don't you know that everything with ten, hundred, thousand and ten thousand is not to be taken literally in classical Chinese? It always just means many, a lot, long time, long distance etc. Hardly ever is it written to be taken literally.

 

[hmesker]

The problem is that we have too little context if we see sentences and lines isolated. Anyone that have read many classic texts know that the key to finding the right meaning lies mostly in determining the context, because the meaning of ancient characters can turn like a dice and reveal new sides with different grades or aspects of the same dice. (...) I believe there is a gradual development of the six lines up through hexagrams, and also up through the 64 hexagrams. I try to find the context of the lines in this light. Tun is in the beginning of Zhou Yi and I understand the lines to describe different levels of strategies for starting or building up things from the bottom. (...) Six levels of action starting with basic level ending in the more extreme. Same in all hexagrams. (...) When I choose an english word for my translation, it will be influenced by which level and subject of the hexagram it has to describe.

In other words, what you do is choose the corners for the framework in which your translation must fit: the framework decides the context. Different frameworks lead to different contexts: if I don't assume that the lines of a hexagram describe 'six levels of action', then this will affect my translation. The Yi itself hardly gives context - there does not seem to be any coherence between the hexagrams, there is no story running through the text. Context is chosen by the translator, based on ideas and assumptions, it is hardly dictated by the text. You can choose to let trigram associations affect your translation, you can choose not to do that - the choice defines the translation. That doesn't change when you've had 'training in classical Chinese', in fact, such a training might become a burden because they teach you commonplaces like 'numbers like 10, 100, 10.000 etc. should not be taken literally'. The fact that there are hardly sinologists who try to study the Yi and translate it, might be a sign that any education in classical Chinese hardly helps in understanding this particular classic.

My point is: we all know that a translation is formed by the context. But the context that you see is mostly a personal choice, and this choice is not necessarily better then the choice of others.

1. An almost identical scene is described in Hou Han shu (in Dong Yi Liezhuan I think). A woman is to choose between a handsome wild man storming to her house showing off in front of her house, or a rich boring man from a fine family. She chose the wild one, but with reservations.

It seems you are letting this idea that there is a parallel in the Yi affect your translation:

Wanting to propose marriage he starts out riding around in a four-horse carriage like a bandit or robber. But a women acting correctly will not agree, only after long time she will.

I have difficulties seeing the underlined portions in the Chinese original: there is no 'wanting to propose' in the text, I miss 匪, I don't see 'not agree' and 'she will', and the pregnancy seems to be aborted. To me this seems to go against the 'realistic meaning of characters' you are taught to adhere to in your lessons classical Chinese. This is what happens to most translators of the Yi (including me): once you have an opinion about a book, a text, line or paragraph, your translation will almost always be shaped according to that opinion, which you will see as a confirmation that your opinion/assumption/whatever is right. The assumption becomes an idee fixe, which sticks to the translation like a parasite who is taking over the host. And sooner or later there is no difference between the host and the parasite.

Sounds dramatic, eh (I bet you never learned this at school ) My point is, with such an ambivalent text as the Yi you are bound to end up with a result that is quite personal and hardly objective. It is the intention that decides the translation. Your decisions and view of the text create the context - not the other way around.

 

[Sparhawk]

Hi Lars,

I believe that Zhou Yi can be translated in a fluent language, and that the author could express very subtle ideas.

I hope you are not assuming there is AN AUTHOR of the Zhouyi that rendered a homogeneous, linear text. That would be a "contextual mirage." IMO, the best way to think about it, to avoid fixing to it a general narrative context that doesn't exist, is a collage, a compilation. I would say "the compilers" could express very subtle ideas by attaching a particular text to a given line or hexagram, but the contextual reason for that matching has been long lost. Exegetes from the Warring States, and numerous dynasties later, including us now in the West, have been trying to unlock the logic of the text compilation by devising all kinds of artifacts but no real key, to my knowledge, has been found. The Yijing might be a part of the Chinese Classics but stands alone as a literary work. It can't be read as any of the others.

 

[charly]

The training in classical Chinese I had were with one of the best and toughest teachers you will ever find. He criticized us severely if we did not make fluent sentences based on a realistic meaning of characters ...

Lars:

In your quest for «fluent sentences», please, don't put too much lubricant. The advice is written in the YI, a little good, too much, horrible! A text that is neither narrative nor descriptive can run nervously like a horse or incomprehensible like human designs.

I believe that the diviners for wich the book was written were no philosophers but action oriented people, hard opportunitic guys or even old wise witches, people loving good life, risking the neck in their jobs, knowing how to behave in presence of kings and cops.

Here you have another scene:

... «Cautiously they assemble, mount their horses, and extend their ranks, as marauders, bent on plunder, to capture brides for themselves» After which follows the gloss: «Girls,correct, had no names till they were ten years old, after ten they were named».

T. W. KINGSMILL
From an article in China Review that I will try to apport assap.

The guy knew chinese and little agreed with Legge. And he translates Zhen as CORRECT, like you !

(to be continued)


Yours,

Charly

 

[solun]

Similarly, Zhen has the meaning of a
finding, a truth, an answer to a question, a specific divination or determination, or
the resolution of a doubt. But it also means to uphold this truth or determination,
to resolve to uphold this solution to the problem, to try or test it, to prove it (in the
original sense of prove). Resolution is a measure of the clarity of light in optics, as
well as a statement about firmness of purpose. And so Zhen is also glossed as
determination, persistence, resolve or verification. In the combination of these
meanings it might refer to something which exists on both sides of a Change, a bit
of continuity, something we can rely on or hang on to. - Bradford

Sounds like devotion, or to re-devote oneself to a principle, goal or the like - which notions, devotion and re-devotion, I have come across.

 

[larsbo_c]

About finding a framework for translation including zhen

Hi Lars,
I hope you are not assuming there is AN AUTHOR of the Zhouyi that rendered a homogeneous, linear text. That would be a "contextual mirage."

I follow Shaughnessy's advice and refer to the core text as Zhou Yi, only the 450 lines, no more no less. I never spend time on Yijing as a whole. I don’t think there is much help to find in it with regard to translation of the core text.
I do indeed feel absolutely certain there were only one author of Zhou Yi.
I never said Zhou Yi is a linear text. It consists obviously of 450 very different little stories and proverb-like lines. However, there is certainly a linear development from beginning to end. You must be able to see this thread to make a coherent translation, and obviously to use it for divining.
There is close to a hundred translations of Yijing, some only ridiculous attempts by charlatans, others are genuine attempts by highly trained scholars. Compared to so many other ancient classical texts, Yijing shouldn't be so hard to translate. We know what most words ought to mean in general terms, yet there are hardly two attempts of translation that can be said to be close or convey the same overall idea.
There seems to exist a conception that the core text is an almost random collection of crude entries in a primitive list of divination results.
But there is a very important distinction between Zhou Yi and most other divination methods like for instance Tarot; if you get a hexagram with certain lines, the following hexagram is not random and the development of lines are not random, they are fixed in a certain position and a certain hexagram will follow. If you lay cards or whatever, it is more random I believe (but I am no expert on divination systems).

My idea is that if we take any one line, then a meaningful translation of this line must lead to the message or conclusion of the following hexagram. If you get two lines you have a twice as long “story” leading to a conclusion and so on and so forth. But it gets more difficult to follow the more lines added, with three lines I am usually lost. To explain how the more complex batches of lines works in general is much too complex to explain or write down, but it still makes sense when I divine, probably because I have the story given to me by the actual case. I can see how it works in practical use; I just can’t create and write a connecting common interpretation of more than one or two lines that works in all cases.
But the work of writing these connections down can’t be done anyway. You have 384 single lines leading to a hexagram; that can be done. Next level is 320x2 lines (might also be done), next 256x3 lines (perhaps some), then 192x4, 128x5 and 64x6, totally 1344 connecting interpretations of rapidly increasing complexity. Impossible to comprehend, but this gives us a hint of the greatness of the mind of our single author of this work and why we are all so fascinated by it
But if we can just translate the 384 single lines so they lead to the next hexagram in a logical way, the picture will get a whole lot clearer with regards to our translation. In short we get a simple comprehensive context as framework.
I also discovered that if I translate this way the meaning of lines change in different combinations with hexagrams, but of course without changing their innate nature. (See example below).
Next post will be examples of my idea.

 

[larsbo_c]

Continued from last post - Examples

Please have a look at the two examples below, but keep in mind that I propose all six lines are about different levels of determination.
Example 1:
43,3-58“[If one is so determined] that the face [is displaying] strength it is not good. The noble person is walking alone very determined and meets rainfall. He can’t be blamed for being annoyed about this.”
I don’t want to argue about this translation. You can choose other meanings of characters if you like, but this is absolutely alright.
This line leads to 58 兌 which means joy.
兌亨利貞 “Joy [is when things] go smoothly. [So it will be] advantageous to correct [the situation]“

So we have a situation where someone is much too determined about something, and should try to stay happy.
And yes I do know that you may want heng 亨 to mean a sacrifice, but it also means “go smoothly” (make things go smoothly by doing a sacrifice. Plenty of examples for smoothly in dictionaries and texts)
And my goodness! here I go again with another example of zhen as correct
Those who don’t like brackets are those who haven’t translated very much classical Chinese. We have to do it all the time, it’s the nature of the language; the older a text is, the more explanatory brackets needed (due to lack of grammatical particles).
Even if you ignore my translation of 58 Dui, it can still be taken as joy for a conclusion to 43-3 since dui means joy.
Example 2:
The first example 43,3 was a situation where the situation of enduring hardship was a bad thing. But like the same dice can show different sides with increasing numbers, lines can change with increasing qualities:
43,1: 壯于前趾往不勝為咎 Powerful, ahead, feet, set out, no, success, do, a mistake:
“If you set out with powerful steps, but win no success you commit a mistake.”
43,3 (see above) in combination with 43,1 has now become a good thing, what you ought to do because it was tempered by line 1 and now it leads to 47. I don’t translate 47 here, but it means to press yourself, not merely talk, but do the things you set out for, even if it is tough. Works very well with 43-3.
43,1+3>47 You are determined and must win success, although it is tough, you must achieve what you said you wanted to do.

I would like to give an example with three lines, but as I said it gets harder the more lines there are. I hope you get my idea with just these two. Try yourself with other lines.

 

[Sparhawk]

Hi Lars,

I follow Shaughnessy's advice and refer to the core text as Zhou Yi, only the 450 lines, no more no less. I never spend time on Yijing as a whole. I don’t think there is much help to find in it with regard to translation of the core text.
I do indeed feel absolutely certain there were only one author of Zhou Yi.

Curious, you base that on what evidence?

But the work of writing these connections down can’t be done anyway. You have 384 single lines leading to a hexagram; that can be done. Next level is 320x2 lines (might also be done), next 256x3 lines (perhaps some), then 192x4, 128x5 and 64x6, totally 1344 connecting interpretations of rapidly increasing complexity. Impossible to comprehend, but this gives us a hint of the greatness of the mind of our single author of this work and why we are all so fascinated by it
But if we can just translate the 384 single lines so they lead to the next hexagram in a logical way, the picture will get a whole lot clearer with regards to our translation. In short we get a simple comprehensive context as framework.
I also discovered that if I translate this way the meaning of lines change in different combinations with hexagrams, but of course without changing their innate nature. (See example below).
Next post will be examples of my idea.

You must be familiar with the Jiashi Yilin, don't you? I mean, it is a different text and system, based on the YIjing, but follows a thought process similar to what you describe above.

 

[larsbo_c]

Hexagram 3.2 including zhen 貞 again.

Hexagram 3,2 was a poorly chosen example by me, because tun it is not at all straight forward to translate. Wilhelm, Legge, Blofeld, Da Liu, Kunst, everybody had problems here, and they had dictionaries too you know. I have come across “missing links” a great number of times, where the only possible solution was to go back and find text samples and determine a framework because dictionaries only had fractions of or fuzzy definitions.

屯如邅如乘馬班如匪寇婚媾女子貞不字十年乃字

屯 accumulating. Problem! The hexagram is only the third, where you just begin. When start on any project you have to accumulate; energy, know how, money, helpers, guides etc. I take it to mean “what we have to do in the beginning” in this case “he sets out”.
如 like
邅 around
如 like
乘 riding
馬班 four horse carriage
如 like
匪 bandit
寇 robber
婚媾 wants to propose marriage
女子 young woman
貞 acting correctly
不 will not
字 agree (this is in my dictionaries especially for marriage agreement)
十年 long time
乃 then
字 agree
Nothing here I can’t prove! Except for tun.

Wanting to propose marriage he starts out riding around [her house] in a four-horse carriage like a bandit or robber. But a women acting correctly will not agree, only after long time she will.
The beginning part is still a bit difficult to persuade others about, but if a logical framework is established, maybe I can?

 

[Sparhawk]

Example 2:
The first example was a situation where 43,3 was a bad thing. But like the same dice can show different sides with increasing numbers, lines can change with increasing qualities.
43,1: 壯于前趾往不勝為咎 Powerful, ahead, feet, set out, no, success, do, a mistake:
“If you set out with powerful steps, but win no success you commit a mistake.”
43,3 (see above) in combination with 43,1 has now become a good thing, what you ought to do. Because it leads to 47. I don’t translate 47 here, but it means to press yourself, not merely talk, but do the things you set out for, even if it is tough. Works very well with 43-3.
43,1+3>47 You are determined and must win success, although it is tough, you must achieve what you said you wanted to do.

I would like to give an example with three lines, but as I said it gets harder the more lines there are. I hope you get my idea with just these two. Try yourself with other lines.

43,1,3>47? I like the optimist in you... But I see what you are doing. One way it works is in the sense you translate and make contextual connections between the Yi text and the question at hand, on the fly. Some of it has been discussed here before, sans the "translating" part (i.e. Steps of Change, to name one). Which is fine. Now, there is a small obvious detail that is easy to miss discussing translations: The ancient Zhou didn't have to translate. Still, the nature of the exegesis that has mounted over millennia tells a story where, even in those ancient times, all the way to the present, Chinese exegetes have been scratching their heads and making semantic connections contextually on the fly, rendering whole treatises on the subject, only to be adopted or rebuked by the next philosopher. Some times the context was pedestrian, some others, very lofty and philosophically hefty. It is a good thing (and no small wonder) that most seem to agree on a Yin/Yang duality... Translating just add an extra layer of difficulty to the task.

BTW, have you read Richard Smith's last book?

 

[larsbo_c]

Hi Lars,

You must be familiar with the Jiashi Yilin, don't you? I mean, it is a different text and system, based on the YIjing, but follows a thought process similar to what you describe above.

Never heard of it, looks very interesting! Thanks Luis!

 

[larsbo_c]

Hi Lars,

Originally Posted by larsbo_c
I do indeed feel absolutely certain there were only one author of Zhou Yi.

Sparhawk: Curious, you base that on what evidence?

Logical framework haha!

 

[charly]

Hexagram 3,2 was a poorly chosen example by me, because tun it is not at all straight forward to translate. ...

字 agree (this is in my dictionaries especially for marriage agreement)
十年 long time
乃 then
字 agree
...

Lars:

I have some problems that I will tell you later.

Harmen wondered what happened with pregnancy and now I understand.

字zi is a nice character in many senses. Legge having translated it as «LOVING CARE», in TUN shows some hesitation, first he gives UNION, immediately he gives UNION & CHILDREN.

But in old times somebody asked the girl if she consented to be married?

I believe that 字zi, applied to girls mariage, means that the girl has been promised in mariage, not that she agree with it.

The character depicts a SON UNDER ROOF and had the sense of PROGENY that was at the same time the RESULT and the CONDITION of mariage.

PREGNANCY is a possible result of sexual intercouse, then the result of marriage (in correct girls), but without pregnancy in old times the marriage was NO VALID, then the condition.

This paradoxical situation give place to much misunderstanding. It's discomfortable for moralistic translators and even for some more critics, like Kingsmill.

A character depicting a BABY AT HOME passed to mean PREGNANCY, MATERNAL CARE, PROGENY, OFFSPRINGS.

Later it meant WRITTEN CHARACTER, WORD... How did it pass?

ZI denotes COMPOSED CHARACTERS, say characters composed by the CONJUNCTION of another non-composed charactrers named WEN. Through this conjunction the WEN components become like FATHER & MOTHER and the compund or ZI become the PROGENY.

Scribes when inventing characters acted like cattle breeders, they didn't ask the WEN if they were willing of being married or not.

See that in the sequence there is another character meaning PREGNANCY, the character 乃 nai, that depicts BELLY & BREATS of a pregnant woman. 孕 yun, means TO BE PREGNANT / TO CONCEIVE.

Maybe the CORRECT and CHASTE GIRL, saw herself obliged to DENY her PREGNANCY although from LONG TIME she was PREGNANT-PREGNANT, 乃字 !

If not true...

Yours,


Charly

 

[larsbo_c]

Hi Lars,
Curious, you base that on what evidence?

There is of course no archaeological proof, never will, but if my idea about a development in the whole Zhoy Yi as well as in the six lines of the hexagrams is true, it is a god-like achievement by the author. If there were more contributors and the text evolved over some time, or was compiled from many sources of oracle bone divinations or whatever there wouldn't have been this system of connections and development that I see so clearly.

 

[Sparhawk]

If there were more contributors and the text evolved over some time, or was compiled from many sources of oracle bone divinations or whatever there wouldn't have been this system of connections and development that I see so clearly.

I think you are giving way too much credit to writers and too little to editors (and librarians)...