12.2.5 to 64 Blocked to Not Yet Across

[LilaArnold]

My question was exactly "How can I understand that conversation?" I had just finished a conversation with my ex-husband about our 9-year-old's difficulty sleeping.

He's been staying up late and comes to me at night with anxiety when he can't sleep. My ex-husband responded that he doesn't seem to have that trouble at his house. I wondered if I should have held my tongue but expressed that he had called me when he couldn't sleep while at his Dad's house. It sucked for everyone. I hoped that it would be a simple conversation about easing him to sleep earlier and comforting him at night and it turned into a very defensive situation. He implied that I was creating the anxiety by forcing him to sleep. We were never strict about bedtime when we were married, and neither of us is strict now, but I'm feeling the need to support his sleep and he seems to need guidance around bedtime. I guess I hoped we could agree and support him together. I understand that he must've felt criticized by me in this conversation. We kept it easy and light (it was in front of the kids), and as we've always been outwardly calm and polite (not a yelling breakup) that was 'normal' but the feelings underneath were horrible.

I left the conversation feeling that he is more concerned about defending his being a 'good dad' than being concerned about his son. And I felt so sad. And discouraged. And I wanted to somehow apologize and figure out a way to make him feel like we are in this together so that he doesn't leave and talk about how I'm such a prudish, goody two shoes.

Our dynamic is that he left the marriage abruptly via an affair implying that I should have known he was so unhappy. I do believe he is happier now (as am I). I forgive him for the ending of our marriage and we've both moved on to new partners. My last hold-out/desire/hope for anything between us was that we would be successful co-parents. Maybe it is possible one day. See? I'm still holding that hope. But now, it just isn't so. My experience is that we barely share ideas around parenting and it is generally me that brings something up and suggests his support.

So I got Hexagram 12, Blocked, which actually felt like a relief because when he gets defensive I quickly move into taking the blame to bring some balance and order back. I felt like the I Ching was coming to my defense.

Especially this: "You're not doing anything wrong; the problem is that these creative possibilities are just not available when things are Blocked." Hearing 'you are not doing anything wrong' made me cry.

I don't really understand the changing lines,

Line 2​

'Embracing the charge.
Small people, good fortune.
Great people, blocked. Creating success.'

Line 5​

'Resting when blocked.
Great person, good fortune.
It is lost, it is lost!
Tie it to the bushy mulberry tree.'

but other translations indicate that I should quietly accept this moment and stay true to myself. Changes are indicated for the better yet it is wise to remain cautious.

I take it all to mean that the situation is in stagnation and all my good intentions will come to nothing right now. I will make space, honor myself and my own intuitive parenting, and see what can pass.

 

[diamant]

Hi @LilaArnold ,

How can I understand that conversation? 12.2.5 > 64

The character for 12 means stagnation, evil, 'no', denial.
12 is about two entities being different and apart from each other.

Here there are two changing lines, so there is some action to overcome 12, you're trying to understand the conversation, but 64 shows not coming across, no bridging, no conclusion. More specifically:

12.2 speaks about being obedient and patient. Embracing the responsibility, taking it upon yourself. This is a good ('lucky') way to act if the person is 'small' in some way, as compared to another. So for a subordinate, it's good to placate their superiors. For a child, it's good to be obedient. This behaviour, however, for a person who is 'big' is not prosperous, it doesn't bring progress. The additional Xiang Zhuan text says that the big person has no progress (or: evil progress, or denial of progress), but they still don't get confused by a group or crowd.
Quite a strange situation, with power-play involved. You and your ex are not in equal positions.

In 12.5, negation (or denial, or evil) is stopped, even if temporarily. That's lucky for the big person. Someone is suffering a lot, they feel as if they're dying. This intense feeling causes the big person to act drastically. They're not content anymore to just temporarily stop the nasty situation - instead, they are doing their best to tie and secure the situation to something which is rooted and stable. The additional Xiang Zhuan text says that the big person gets lucky, and their throne/position/rank is now appropriate, they have now taken charge.

How does all that apply as an answer to your question?
The conversation was a power play about who is inferior/superior, who has the upper hand.
64 means that the conversation did not achieve a conclusion.

Co-parenting with him as equal-to-equal doesn't sound possible, and he doesn't sound caring enough to have the upper hand. In my opinion, the one who deserves to have the upper hand is someone constructive, not someone destructive.

 

[redoleander]

12.2.5 to 64​

Taking your question of how to understand the conversation, I’d say it’s affirming that, yes, a wall is up and the message was not received, that you’re in process on this topic and haven’t arrived anywhere yet. Sort of like you pushed yourself out on a raft and then bumped a rock and now you’re hovering in the middle of the stream (because, for you, it’s unresolved.)

I don’t know if this means you can’t get through though? Maybe it’s about identifying what the block is and finding another way. Defensiveness is impossible to work with unless the person is making a genuine effort to become aware of the defensiveness and change it. So, you might need to get clever in how you approach it. Like a cat burglar taking a specific route so as not to trip off the alarm.

 

[dfreed]

"How can I understand that conversation?" - 12.2.5 to 64

(real quick, whose translation are you using here?)

I assume that you have a greater need here - that you want to get past this non-communication with your ex, so you can both better co-parent your son. Is that close, or am I making too many assumptions here?

The overall image I get from Hex. 12 is of two forces, Earth and Heaven or in this case, mother and father going off in different directions. The fighting and disagreements aside, what this creates is a void which any young person might fall into.

In some respects, there is no blame or fault here - it's just Father/Mother are going off in their own directions, but it is something you want to deal with.

With Hex. 12, the lower trigram (three line figure) is Earth, you, mother - and with one moving line it seems that you want to care and help your son. But your efforts are (or feel) thwarted, and so perhaps you then fall back into a more passive roll, or you feel you can't do anything to fix this situation.

The upper trigram Heaven is father, your ex. Just like most of us guys, he wants to be hero and to come up with creative ways to fix things. But here, with one moving line your ex. perhaps does not know how to fix this situation, or how to be the hero, so instead he either goes into denial (there is no problem here), or feels he's being blamed (even when he's not) and so he lashes out (no, it's your fault, not mine!).

What to do? A few ideas / suggestions - but one thing to keep in mind is that you need to be 'down-to-earth', and realize that consulting the Yi is just a tool, not the ultimate fix:

For you: Try to get past whatever is holding you back (guilt, passivity) and again 'embrace' helping your son. You need to be flexible here, and perhaps give (or give in) more than you think you should. 12.2 talks about 'small' and 'good fortune' so think in terms of small steps, small victories.

For your ex. even though he doesn't want to admit it (and he may not know it) he's a bit 'lost, lost'! So you have to find ways to corral him back in, 'tie (him) to the bushy mulberry tree.'

Perhaps you can talk to your ex. in terms of wanting to create a safe home for your son. Or find ways to let your ex be (or think he's being) the great person / the father - hero.

As I read this, it seems that I'm saying you should do a lot of bending and accomodating just to get your ex. on board - and this may be right. But maybe if he does get back on track, this won't be something you'll have to continue. (Or if seems like what I'm saying here is a load of crap, just ignore it).

About 64 - here you're not quite across the river, and the young fox gets his tail wet again)! Welcome to parenthood! With Hex. 64, the Yi is telling you that you are 'already across' - you've gone ahead and had a child - and now comes the maintenance phase - wet tails, bad dreams, colds, broken arms, broken hearts, good/bad report cards ... and being 'not quite across' will, with any luck, last only another 12 to 20 years!

Hex. 64 serves as a good reminder that 'bad dreams' are part of the maintenance agreement, and you can put all this in perspective - since you'll be at it for a while!

I hope this is of some use for you. D

 

[LilaArnold]

Hi @LilaArnold ,

How can I understand that conversation? 12.2.5 > 64

The character for 12 means stagnation, evil, 'no', denial.
12 is about two entities being different and apart from each other.

Here there are two changing lines, so there is some action to overcome 12, you're trying to understand the conversation, but 64 shows not coming across, no bridging, no conclusion. More specifically:

12.2 speaks about being obedient and patient. Embracing the responsibility, taking it upon yourself. This is a good ('lucky') way to act if the person is 'small' in some way, as compared to another. So for a subordinate, it's good to placate their superiors. For a child, it's good to be obedient. This behaviour, however, for a person who is 'big' is not prosperous, it doesn't bring progress. The additional Xiang Zhuan text says that the big person has no progress (or: evil progress, or denial of progress), but they still don't get confused by a group or crowd.
Quite a strange situation, with power-play involved. You and your ex are not in equal positions.

In 12.5, negation (or denial, or evil) is stopped, even if temporarily. That's lucky for the big person. Someone is suffering a lot, they feel as if they're dying. This intense feeling causes the big person to act drastically. They're not content anymore to just temporarily stop the nasty situation - instead, they are doing their best to tie and secure the situation to something which is rooted and stable. The additional Xiang Zhuan text says that the big person gets lucky, and their throne/position/rank is now appropriate, they have now taken charge.

How does all that apply as an answer to your question?
The conversation was a power play about who is inferior/superior, who has the upper hand.
64 means that the conversation did not achieve a conclusion.

Co-parenting with him as equal-to-equal doesn't sound possible, and he doesn't sound caring enough to have the upper hand. In my opinion, the one who deserves to have the upper hand is someone constructive, not someone destructive.

Wow. That was an amazingly helpful addition to the reading and my question. Thank you so much for taking the time to bring clarity to this question; which I have come to see as an underlying constant question in various forms in my post-divorce healing. I've been so adamant that we are equal-to-equal that it is blinding me, and it's so much like the way I conducted myself inside of that marriage... Geez. It's hard to see. That was so very helpful to read this morning @diamant. Thank you, thank you. May you be well.

 

[LilaArnold]

(real quick, whose translation are you using here?)

I assume that you have a greater need here - that you want to get past this non-communication with your ex, so you can both better co-parent your son. Is that close, or am I making too many assumptions here?

The overall image I get from Hex. 12 is of two forces, Earth and Heaven or in this case, mother and father going off in different directions. The fighting and disagreements aside, what this creates is a void which any young person might fall into.

In some respects, there is no blame or fault here - it's just Father/Mother are going off in their own directions, but it is something you want to deal with.

With Hex. 12, the lower trigram (three line figure) is Earth, you, mother - and with one moving line it seems that you want to care and help your son. But your efforts are (or feel) thwarted, and so perhaps you then fall back into a more passive roll, or you feel you can't do anything to fix this situation.

The upper trigram Heaven is father, your ex. Just like most of us guys, he wants to be hero and to come up with creative ways to fix things. But here, with one moving line your ex. perhaps does not know how to fix this situation, or how to be the hero, so instead he either goes into denial (there is no problem here), or feels he's being blamed (even when he's not) and so he lashes out (no, it's your fault, not mine!).

What to do? A few ideas / suggestions - but one thing to keep in mind is that you need to be 'down-to-earth', and realize that consulting the Yi is just a tool, not the ultimate fix:

For you: Try to get past whatever is holding you back (guilt, passivity) and again 'embrace' helping your son. You need to be flexible here, and perhaps give (or give in) more than you think you should. 12.2 talks about 'small' and 'good fortune' so think in terms of small steps, small victories.

For your ex. even though he doesn't want to admit it (and he may not know it) he's a bit 'lost, lost'! So you have to find ways to corral him back in, 'tie (him) to the bushy mulberry tree.'

Perhaps you can talk to your ex. in terms of wanting to create a safe home for your son. Or find ways to let your ex be (or think he's being) the great person / the father - hero.

As I read this, it seems that I'm saying you should do a lot of bending and accomodating just to get your ex. on board - and this may be right. But maybe if he does get back on track, this won't be something you'll have to continue. (Or if seems like what I'm saying here is a load of crap, just ignore it).

About 64 - here you're not quite across the river, and the young fox gets his tail wet again)! Welcome to parenthood! With Hex. 64, the Yi is telling you that you are 'already across' - you've gone ahead and had a child - and now comes the maintenance phase - wet tails, bad dreams, colds, broken arms, broken hearts, good/bad report cards ... and being 'not quite across' will, with any luck, last only another 12 to 20 years!

Hex. 64 serves as a good reminder that 'bad dreams' are part of the maintenance agreement, and you can put all this in perspective - since you'll be at it for a while!

I hope this is of some use for you. D

Thank you @dfreed for taking the time to address my question. Here I am using Hillary Barrett's translation. It's quite helpful to think of the void between the mother and father, heaven and earth. I long to have a collaborative partnership and that seems to get in the way of the actual work at hand. The advice to be 'down to earth' is helpful. I can do and offer very practical things for our son that don't threaten the role of the father/hero and may seem small but because of their simplicity/innocence are effective at making a bridge between mother and father for our son to cross (as he must do weekly).

 

[LilaArnold]

12.2.5 to 64​

Taking your question of how to understand the conversation, I’d say it’s affirming that, yes, a wall is up and the message was not received, that you’re in process on this topic and haven’t arrived anywhere yet. Sort of like you pushed yourself out on a raft and then bumped a rock and now you’re hovering in the middle of the stream (because, for you, it’s unresolved.)

I don’t know if this means you can’t get through though? Maybe it’s about identifying what the block is and finding another way. Defensiveness is impossible to work with unless the person is making a genuine effort to become aware of the defensiveness and change it. So, you might need to get clever in how you approach it. Like a cat burglar taking a specific route so as not to trip off the alarm.

Thank you @redoleander. I appreciate the affirmation that yes, a wall is up. It's so helpful to acknowledge and (hopefully) accept that. To move forward from that place is helpful. I tend to assume that unresolve is all on my side and if I would only do more personal work I would find the way. Best to you.