16.5

[anemos]

Hi all,

I hope you can shed some light re 16.5 ; "Persistently ill, and still does not die."

I’m trying to grasp the meaning of this line and especially what “illness” might represent here. There are many different translations/interpretations that vary from situational to dispositional factors.

To my understanding , some say that its a difficult situation but won’t kill you so keep your enthusiasm and keep doing what needs to be done. “What doesn’t kill us makes us stronger” comes in mind reading Wilhelm's commentaries, who seems to give a positive spin to the hardships one faces i.e. learn to be more resilient, grow a thicker skin (maybe)

Others talk about an ill attitude and/or behavior that is not helpful and by not let it die its blockings ones actions. That brings in mind a “ill” mindset and tunnel vision thinking ( the persistently part of this line) So, the “won’t die” here , could mean that this is a fixed set of believes from where specific /fixed judgments , choices and decision sprung from it and unless one won’t “kill” them, they won’t die.

Any thoughts or experiences you would like to share will be much appreciated.
Thanks in advance

 

[Trojina]

Well it is a difficult line to understand but I have experienced it several ways

1. I had a large lump under my tongue. I was worried about it being something nasty. I must admit I had some pretty morbid thoughts about what it might be, Asked Yi (prior to dentist visit) , got 16.5....it was pretty literal answer. It was nothing nasty, just a blocked saliva gland or something like that but it took a very long time to go away and it was irritating. I think there was like a little stone blocking something and it only dissolved gradually. So there Yi appeared to be saying 'hey this won't kill you but it goes on a bit'.

2. I'd had access to free reiki therapy for a few years. At one point it seemed my time was up...my quota of free therapy was about to expire. Wasn't sure, asked Yi, got 16.5 and it turned out I could go on and on having it for some time to come. I still wanted and needed it so I still had it. So the common theme in these experiences seems to be something that lingers on, that would be the 'chronically' part of the line, but that actually won't kill you....which is precisely what it says I suppose.

I don't think one is advised to make something die here. I mean at least I couldn't make the lump in my mouth die I had to wait for it to dissolve, and the other situation required a kind of patience or resignation...with the understanding that whatever discomfort you experience it actually won't kill you.

I think it can be saying you just have to grin and bear it, put up with things for a while, it will do you no great harm. Perhaps in some situations it may mean to make something die but I personally have not yet known that.

 

[anemos]

Thank you ! its very helpful. Need to think more about it and share more later.

 

[anemos]

thank you ! From what you say seems my first cluster of thoughts might be right. Still something else confuses me but its not clear in my mind yet.

hex 45 yes that was what happened ,literally and figuratively. I use c-o-n-c-e-n-t-r-a-t-e for 45 .

There is a joke ( anecdode) where two friends realize they drink an lot and have a chat about cutting it- yet they really don't want so its hard to make a decision.Then, one of them propose: "here is what we're going to do: I'll hide behind my back the bottle and if you find with which hand I hold it we'll keep drinking , if not we will stop" The other agrees so they do that .

" which hand" the first one asks ?
-left , the other responses

In panic , the other says "c-o-n-c-e-n-t-r-a-t-e !!!!! "

First times I encounter 45 in readings couldn't make sense and one day after reading the text again and again and was like reading chinese i said my self - like the way in this story- concentrate. * light bulb !*

 

[bradford]

Some might assert that it's better to feel poorly or badly than to feel numb or nothing. Suffering is often optional and yet it persists. Asking why, we might sometimes conclude that least we feel alive and motivated to pull ourselves together. No matter that there are easier ways to do this.

 

[anemos]

Some might assert that it's better to feel poorly or badly than to feel numb or nothing.

Yes, I know what you mean. Both approaches are not very useful; this is what I have learned. Both disconnect us from the reality and in the context of h16 you are no longer attuned with the real world out there. It immobilize one while its time for action. or, they create a false “safe base” (45) Sometimes 45 asks “what god you worship”. Suffering persists in both approaches ; whining or ignoring

 

[anemos]

This reading came after we ( me and two other people) receiving a negative response from someone we asked their help. There is a “chronically ill” situation that we try to solve – kill it if you like because the effects it has to us and our health can not be ignored anymore. Someone doesn’t agree with our decision and creating obstacles behind our back. The negative response was a product of his influence to that person we asked for his help. Knowing their influence and they stand towards life we didn’t expect much but still we hold some hopes
What Whilhelm says describes the situation better than I try to do.
Here enthusiasm is obstructed. A man is under constant pressure, which prevents him from breathing freely.


We had a meeting (45) and tried to get it and ourselves together and put in work plan B. Besides the practicalities the bottom line of the meeting was not “…consuming powers in empty enthusiasm” or …iow :”deal with it!!!! “

From that perspective Wilhelm’s commentaries and your personal experiences with this line support the “what that doesn’t kills you make your stronger” Because although in a sense we are in a weaker position that indeed acts as a drive to concentrate to what can be done now. “Suffering is optional” does not contradicts this notion. That was a part of my confusion but now its more clear- i think...

The reason I asked for clarifications and your thoughts was that when I got that reading , one way to read it is that “chronically ill “ situation won’t die…or won’t die soon, hence my question whether this line is about situations or dispositions. I gather that its not the situation it matters but the ways you see it. : “Deal with it !!!” its what I hear from this line.

Thanks again for your input. It helped a lot !

 

[anemos]

Some might assert that it's better to feel poorly or badly than to feel numb or nothing. Suffering is often optional and yet it persists. Asking why, we might sometimes conclude that least we feel alive and motivated to pull ourselves together. No matter that there are easier ways to do this.

i read again your 16.5 commentaries and the above post. It seems to me that this line talks about a suffering that is not real and its only in our minds or because of ill attitude. However, thinking about psychical pain ( because in a way its more objective in some ways) and the suffering that cause and the part I have underlined its not clear to me. I wonder if you could offer an example or clarify it.

Sometimes, it is the illness that acts as a driver to cease that suffering and it is what ultimately makes you stronger, the will to walk the extra mile. That "....which prevents him from breathing freely" , that which prevents them from keep walking ( still talking about the psychical body) its what it makes them keep walking and remain alive- literally . Sometimes, you have no other choice yet you can choose.

 

[sooo]

Suffering can buffer pride. Maybe there are easier ways to accomplish this, but none more effective or immediate. Getting a good numb on provides a loosening in the knots that bind up the mind. I suppose these don't sound very superior, but at least they're tangibly real, though only sometimes related to 16.5. Not all illness is self-inflicted.

 

[anemos]

that's when the "old brain" takes charge and put us in a numb or freeze state. Sometimes is very useful , as you said, to be emotionally detached from various stressors and the affect they have on our energy levels, especially when there are thing we need to do ,when its time to 45 and repair our weapons to get prepared for unforeseen events(45) or "set armies marching" (16)

Confusion on what the main message of 16.5 is persists and thus I asked Yi's help to highlight the most important factor I should focus to. Got 45.

 

[sooo]

The mind must be freed before it can be gathered, or else you gather more tension and confusion, and get further bogged down in the mire, where part if not all can indeed die.

 

[anemos]

unfortunately, you are right!!!

thank you for reminding me that.

 

[vagabond303]

My explanation to this line is that you can't overdose on Copium but copium addiction is the illness.

 

[kestrelw1ngs]

Hm. I got this line asking about a terrible emotionally abusive ex who keeps cropping up in organizing spaces. I.e. "can't get away from" him - I would have very much loved to get any kind of accountability for the harm he caused, asked of him by many people ... unfortunately he just kept running and jumping scenes and I can't avoid seeing his stupid try hard fake activism and 1 million projects across online spaces, and I have not much of a platform or weight, that the good ol boys who continue to platform him ever listened to requests not to work with him listen to.

My emotional reaction to seeing him has several times upended my attempts at getting stable, but now it's just a burning irritation and nausea like inhaling bad chemicals.
So unfortunately aside from directly forcing contact with him to demand he face up to his past without weaseling and blaming....there's not much I can do.
If something made his influence die, that would be wonderful.
But in the meantime I really must work on releasing all the pent up emotion around this man that's poisoning my well. I hate him so much and feel he ruined my life but the hate sure isn't hurting him. Only me....

It's a fitting line.

 

[rosada]

Totally agree with your connecting 16.5 with a need to release pent up emotion. To be able to let go of the past - good or bad - seems to be crucial to good health.

I’ve been ruminating about why this negative sounding line would appear in the usually positive 5th position. I think it’s giving the key advice for how to handle life’s emotional highs and lows by finding the balance point between being totally elated (16.4) on the one extreme and being totally emotionally detached(16.6) on the other. Perhaps 16.5 is a warning not to be overly nostalgic. Obsessing about the past wont kill you but it can sure be depressing. “Curb your Enthusiasm!”

 

[rosada]

16.5 reminds me of the Beatles song, A Day in The Life and the resilience to carry on despite life’s challenges.