Clarity,
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London.
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The main problem is bo 剝. It seems the most original or central meaning is a bit obscure to us.剝 Karlgren's dictionary 1228a: cut, flay, peel, to pluck, lay bare, to ruin, break.
My translation of
Line 5: 六五 貫魚以宮人寵無不利
[If] a string of fish is given as a favor to the people of the palace, [then] none [of them] will not be of help [to you].
Line 6: 上九 碩果不食君子得輿小人剝廬
A large fruit not eaten. The wise person acquires a carriage, the small man’s house falls apart.
That is funny. I thought I showed the opposite.In this thorough article Harmen Mesker has effectively shown that there is nothing useful to find in the other editions.
I didn't "point that out". All I said was, "The contexts for which these line texts are meant are not explicitly indicated". But implicitly they are, which is what I worked out in my conclusion. You obviously don't agree with that conclusion and choose to ignore it altogether. Which is a good example of the "if you don't like it you pretend it isn't there" politics that seems to prevail in the new age corner of the Yi world. You have decided (not discovered, only decided) that the variant texts are not useful in the study of the Yi, therefore everything that might prove otherwise can only be ignored. But numerous examples exist which show that the variant texts can be useful. But that is not what you want, because your ideas about the Yi are already fixed, aren't they? You have a problem with lines 5 & 6 of H23, I offer a possible solution but you don't like it, so you just say that the variant texts aren't useful. You could also mention why you choose to ignore it, and why you don't agree with my findings. That would be more interesting and fit your scholarship.He also points out, that he doesn't see a context.
mindful of the potential for misunderstanding.
I see 23 as marking the limits of individual consciousness. Further understanding requires co-ordinating with group consciousness. Therefore receiving this hexagram indicates the need to review the troops, unravel glitches, bring everyone up to speed and create an atmosphere conducive to harmony and sharing before it will be possible to experience greater awareness.
rosada.
Very interesting the I Ching chose "Family" to designate the FedEx folks.
Aesop's Fables
The Man and His Two Wives
In the old days, when men were allowed to have many wives, a middle-aged Man had one wife that was old and one that was young; each loved him very much, and desired to see him like herself.
Now the Man's hair was turning grey, which the young Wife did not like, as it made him look too old for her husband. So every night she used to comb his hair and pick out the white ones.
But the elder Wife saw her husband growing grey with great pleasure, for she did not like to be mistaken for his mother. So every morning she used to arrange his hair and pick out as many of the black ones as she could.
The consequence was the Man soon found himself entirely bald.
Yield to all and you will soon have nothing to yield.
From: http://www.pagebypagebooks.com/Aesop/Aesops_Fables/The_Man_and_His_Two_Wives_p1.html
Hi Larsbo,
Personally, I have found the line structure of the hexagram gives a context that illuminates all the translation details.
So how about if I make my own book with 64 verses and call it I Ching, would that work? The differences between the examples in my post are great enough to take that view I believe, they could absolutely be completely different texts. But we had that discussion before. Take Willowfox, she is without shred of doubt inventing her interpretations, and other members here seem to love it. It's just so silly, but she could use any translation and still make certain people happy. (Sorry Willowfox, but that's how I feel).Part of the wonder of the Yi Oracle is that it works for divination for many, many folks regardless of the translation they use.
Frank
So I see that you consider the core text written 2800 years ago to be the first commentary of the hexagrams. Actually I think you are right , I just don't think you, I or anyone else can fathom the complexity of it. Not even in trance, or approached from the subconsciousness. Thats why I think nobody can add or change anything themselves, it would be inferior.The core of the I Ching is its 64 hexagrams, not the words of text used to illustrate the hexagrams.
Frank
You got a bad translation on that one I'm afraidTake for example line 4. When it changes, hex 23 becomes hex 35. What translation makes simple sense to the average reader how such total misfortune of decay of the bed reaching to the occupant's skin becoming the successful prince rallying an army for his King?
So I see that you consider the core text written 2800 years ago to be the first commentary of the hexagrams. Actually I think you are right , I just don't think you, I or anyone else can fathom the complexity of it. Not even in trance, or approached from the subconsciousness. Thats why I think nobody can add or change anything themselves, it would be inferior.
I think it is a text, written by one author, that is so universally flexible that it is able to span over the gaps between the possible number of combinations. I also believe it can be translated. I seems to me it was written in plain daily-life Pre-Classical Chinese.
Frank:...
I have NEVER commented upon any original or core text, all my comments are about how the text or words are secondary illustrations to the meaning of the hexagrams, contained in just two aspects of the hexagrams themselves. First, meaning can be found in the numbering of the hexagrams in the King Wen Sequence. Second, meaning can be found in the positions of Yang lines in the overall 6 place gua or form or matrix of the hexagrams. No text, no words required, just positions or numbers within the symbolic matrix of the hexagrams.
...
Also - surprisingly often, 23 comes up when I am, as I think, all ready to take the initiative and start something fresh. The warning is - no, not so much, actually you are all ready to reproduce the same thing all over again. 23, not 24, nor yet 43.
Thanks for your comment Hilary. Grammatically you can't put a finger on this construction, it is very straight forward.Also for Lars - I think maybe you have a problem with line 6. Junzi gets a carriage. Small men 剝 a hut. It looks a lot like a parallel construction with a transitive verb in both cases. Since this is line 6 we can expect things to be different, and the normal action of the hexagram to have changed, so you have a case for saying it turns into a transitive verb here but wasn't one before. (I think maybe it becomes progressively more transitive - not a grammatical concept, I know... - on its way up the hexagram.)
Some disagree about 碩果 a large fruit or ripe fruit. Ripe makes sense, but the word clearly means large.
Hilary:...
Lars - wooden beds? Had they been invented?
Hexagram 57. XUN Kneel
He knelt (5) at the bed, and used a combination of diviners and sorcerors. Auspicious. No misfortune...
___________________________
(5) In ancient China people slept on mats, and beds were only used for convalescence. In this text a healing ceremony is being conducted. The character xun depicts two people kneeling, perhaps before an altar. By extension it means "humble, yielding."
From:
Recovering the Lost Meaning of the Yijing BA GUA
© 1999 Dr. Stephen L. Field
at: http://www.fengshuigate.com/bagua.html
Luis:No real disagreement between ripe and large as it relates to fruit. They all start small and grow larger to ripeness. A large fruit in that context, is a ripe fruit...
Luis:
I believe that it means LARGE. What if the fruit is LARGE but UNEDIBLE? Maybe UNSEASONED, maybe ROTTEN?
Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).