25>17, 36>34, repairing a relationship mistake that was my fault?

[einhorn]

I kind of messed up in a relationship and we've separated. I didn't cheat or anything, I was just focused a little too much on starting my own business and kind of neglected my significant other of 2.5 years. We've been separated for about 2 weeks now.

What should I do regarding our relationship?
25 (top line changing) -> 17

What should I expect if I do [this big grand gesture]? (I specifically asked about if I do it on Wednesday, if that matters)
36 (lines 2 and 4 from the bottom changing) -> 34

edit - oh, i forgot. last weekend i asked "what should i expect if i call [name] tonight with the intention of gettng back together?" and i got 21 -> 14
when i called, she didnt answer, or return my call ever.

Reading all the different interpretations online and in my books has made my head spin. I want some opinions from you guys

I have a few more questions to ask the I Ching about various other situations and courses of action, too.

Thanks

 

[arabella]

I will address the first question you asked as it gets confusing to address many in a row, at least for me. You asked what you should do. You seem to know what you did to create the problem. And the IChing seems to be playing that back to you -- saying your answer is in knowing where you went off track.

Hex 25, especially the moving line you cast, refers to a disaster caused by someone treating a situation in a base way. Using this relationship as something quite common and of convenience, rather than the wonder that it is, or was. The result is that nothing resonates any more. Apparently not even your voice on the message machine since she isn't responding to you.

I would expect from this reading that your significant other has felt insignificant for a long while. Not really reading what the IChing says about your consideration of making a major "gesture" I would say from this first casting [Hexagram 25] that gestures aren't the primary measure called for. The other person needs and demands your true attention and a genuine change. Gestures are pointless in a condition where your ultimate sincerity is in question. Unless the gesture is combined with an utter transformation and true sorrow over what has happened and regretting your part in it to the core.

This was a relationship with great potential. That's how I would read Hexagram 17. It had/has promise to be a very fine partnership. You have squandered that potential now. Winning this woman back would be very desirable. But she is no fool. You are going to have to get real, and stay that way. Proving something to her about this is going to take time. To get a foot in the door, maybe suggest this is where you are headed and that you clearly see the mistakes made so far and want to make a new start with a different attitude?

My source for this opinion is Wilhelm and LiSe's interpretation of the IChing, combined with my own experience of the hexagrams cast.

 

[einhorn]

I will address the first question you asked as it gets confusing to address many in a row, at least for me. You asked what you should do. You seem to know what you did to create the problem. And the IChing seems to be playing that back to you -- saying your answer is in knowing where you went off track.

I do realize where I went off track, now.

Hex 25, especially the moving line you cast, refers to a disaster caused by someone treating a situation in a base way. Using this relationship as something quite common and of convenience, rather than the wonder that it is, or was. The result is that nothing resonates any more. Apparently not even your voice on the message machine since she isn't responding to you.

That's almost exactly how she put it at the end

I would expect from this reading that your significant other has felt insignificant for a long while.

Yeah. The part that kills me is I was working so hard so that we could have a better future. It's not like I was intentionally being selfish. Everything I was doing was coming from a place of love.

Not really reading what the IChing says about your consideration of making a major "gesture"

Wait, does that mean "not reading" as in you didn't want to, or "not reading" as in it didn't make sense?

I would say from this first casting [Hexagram 25] that gestures aren't the primary measure called for.

Do you have any idea as to what the primary measure should be?

The other person needs and demands your true attention and a genuine change. Gestures are pointless in a condition where your ultimate sincerity is in question. Unless the gesture is combined with an utter transformation and true sorrow over what has happened and regretting your part in it to the core.

I've been racking my brain for 2 weeks about what to do here. A grand gesture was the only thing I could think of. For example, she felt like she wasn't a priority of mine (which definitely wasn't the case), so how can I change that? You can't logically convince someone to change their feelings. So what could I do? I'd have to show her rather than tell her, right?

I was going to propose (That was the "grand gesture" I asked the I Ching about in my second question). We had talked about marriage before, anyway. My thinking was that maybe she would see that I wouldn't bother proposing to someone who I wasn't serious about, or who wasn't my #1 priority.

I absolutely would have no problem "changing," because it's not like I'd be changing into something I'm not... I would love to work less and spend more time with her... I just have no idea how to convince her of that. Maybe asking the I Ching can help?

This was a relationship with great potential. That's how I would read Hexagram 17. It had/has promise to be a very fine partnership. You have squandered that potential now. Winning this woman back would be very desirable. But she is no fool. You are going to have to get real, and stay that way. Proving something to her about this is going to take time. To get a foot in the door, maybe suggest this is where you are headed and that you clearly see the mistakes made so far and want to make a new start with a different attitude?

That's what I'm trying to figure out how to do.

My source for this opinion is Wilhelm and LiSe's interpretation of the IChing, combined with my own experience of the hexagrams cast.

Are those online? I only have one hardcopy of the I Ching (this one) and it's very technical and dry. I couldn't get nearly as good of an understanding as what you posted. Thanks.

Is asking something specific like "if I want to get [name] back, how should I proceed?" ok?

What about "how is [name] feeling toward me?"

It doesn't mess things up if I talk about questions on this forum that I might ask the I Ching before I ask them, does it?

Thanks for your help. I've been rather neurotic for the last 2 weeks as I feel like I messed up and ruined the best part of my life.

 

[arabella]

You have so many questions in there. I'm going to answer several that would seem to me to keep the ball rolling here. I didn really "read" hexagram 17, by the way, meant that I didn't delve into that part of your reading much. I thought the key here was in the changing line: 25/line 6.

I assumed your grand gesture would be a marriage proposal and although I know nothing but what you've said here, it seems the worst possible time for that. You can't ask for permanence when you don't even have trust. The reading you cast on this, saying that you have to live in darkness to appreciate the light and then move to true power -- very brief scan of that one -- seems to bear out the assumption something is needed -- a lot of something -- before marriage is on the table. Marriage is something to begin out of a position of strength and understanding. So get the understanding first.

There are so many opinions on here of how to phrase questions. It's a hornet's nest in some respects and a challenge to frame the BEST question. So you have to just try and see what response people on here can give.

I'd say from what I've read the situation has hope, although it's in a bad state right now. Maybe a question to ask is something like: "What should I do to recoup [rebuild?] my relationship with X."

Maybe others will chime in with ideas. NO, it's not bad at all to ask how to frame a question. People do it all the time and I've just posted a thread on Exploring Divination asking people how they form their questions for the IChing. You're doing just fine.

 

[arabella]

PS -- It's a losing question, from my experience anyway, to ask how somebody else is feeling about you. It doesn't give you any solutions and it tends to be inaccurate anyway.

 

[arabella]

Sorry, one more thing. Wilhelm is a reference translation of the IChing you can buy in most bookstores. LiSe's IChing webpage is here: http://www.yijing.nl/i_ching/index.html

 

[einhorn]

posting this from my phone, sorry for any typos.

4 new readings i just did (with coins myself)

- what should i do to get [name] back?
64 (unchanging). "NOT YET FORDING. being on the edge of an important choice, it emphasizes waiting and accumulating energy to begin the upcoming move" (then there are pages of definitions that don't make sense)

- How can I show [name] that i love her and am serious about fixing our relationship?
8 (unchanging) "GROUPING. join people and things thru recognizing their essential qualities is the essential way to handle it"

- What should I expect if i send flowers and propose on Thursday?
11.2 -> 36
"PERVADING. prospering and expanding. continually spreading prosperity thru communicating is the adequate way to handle it."

"BRIGHTNESS HIDING - deliberately concealing your light by entering what is beneath you is the adequate way to handle it"

- How does [name] feel about me and her? (i didnt see before where you said asking about how other people feel isn't really useful)
38 "POLARIZING - things that are connected but should not join. putting things in opposition while acknowledging their essential like is the adequate way to handle it."

I don't like that last one, and it's unchanging.

I need to look these up online to get better ideas of the meaning.

As of now, tho, it seems like I should wait (hexagram 64). i'm curious about how GROUPING applies to how i can show her i want to fix things. The "pervading" seemed like it would mean success until it changed to brightness hiding, unless i misinterpreted it.

Ideas?

Thanks a lot!

 

[einhorn]

- How can I show [name] that i love her and am serious about fixing our relationship?
8 (unchanging) "GROUPING. join people and things thru recognizing their essential qualities is the essential way to handle it"

So that's what my book said.

But this website (http://deoxy.org/iching) says this:

THE JUDGMENT


HOLDING TOGETHER brings good fortune.
Inquire of the oracle once again
Whether you possess sublimity, constancy, and perseverance;
Then there is no blame.
Those who are uncertain gradually join.
Whoever come too late
Meets with misfortune.

What is required is that we unite with others, in order that all may
complement and aid one another through holding together. But such
holding together calls for a central figure around whom other persons may
unite. To become a center of influence holding people together is a grave
matter and fraught with great responsibility. It requires greatness of spirit,
consistency, and strength. Therefore let him who wishes to gather others
about him ask himself whether he is equal to the undertaking, for anyone
attempting the task without a real calling for it only makes confusion worse
than if no union at all had taken place.

But when there is a real rallying point, those who at first are hesitant or
uncertain gradually come in of their own accord. Late-comers must suffer the
consequences, for in holding together the question of the right time is also
important. Relationships are formed and firmly established according to
definite inner laws. Common experiences strengthen these ties, and he who
comes too late to share in these basic experiences must suffer for it if, as a
straggler, he finds the door locked.

If a man has recognized the necessity for union and does not feel strong
enough to function as the center, it is his duty to become a member of some
other organic fellowship.

Which sounds to me like it's saying "don't wait too long."

It also says "inquire of the oracle once again." Does that mean to ask the same question again? I thought you weren't supposed to do that.

I try to read as many interpretations from different sources as I can to try and discern the meaning. Is that good?

Also, this makes me feel better about that 38 I got:

Here success can still be
expected, because the situation is such that the opposition does not preclude
all agreement.

Sorry for all the long posts. This is really all I can think about at the moment, however

 

[einhorn]

Sorry, one more thing. Wilhelm is a reference translation of the IChing you can buy in most bookstores. LiSe's IChing webpage is here: http://www.yijing.nl/i_ching/index.html

That LiSe one is pretty cryptic

 

[arabella]

If I were in your shoes, I would recognise the first question, suggesting you are finishing a stage or process or moment in your relationship and now the cycle begins anew. Then I would focus on your second question, which asks how you can show her that you love her. That would seem to be the crux of the matter right now.

Quite possibly others will chime in here to give other perspectives, which is always helpful. There are loads of people on here with lots of experience in reading various Hexagrams, and living out the readings too. Meanwhile, I'll give my perspective on Hexagram 8, unchanging. And that is, that a firm base of Unity is all. If there are problems, they develop into worse things over time. So, your partner's decision to leave was in recognition of that. And as you develop something new, you will both want it to be as perfect as possible.

This is a hexagram of concord and unity, so that is auspicious. And it is unchanging, which suggests all good possibility for you to be together, in new circumstances, and in a better way.

There is an aspect of evening things up, measuring things properly, making things equal in this hexagram. That seems to have been missing as you were not focused on being with her. And that would have to be a reality, not just a promise, for the future. I would say, from an ethical standpoint, you have to know what partnership means to you. You have to have thought through HOW you would be married. What's in it for her, to be blunt.

Defining and beginning to create that, conveying that to her, would seem to be the imminent aspect of what needs to be DONE. Hexagram 8 has an interesting story behind it, of Fang Feng. There was a time of unifying a new kingdom in China, that the Hex 8 symbolises. All the warlords were called together to make a new nation. Fang Feng got there late, for whatever reason, and the Emperor cut off his head. He didn't want a new beginning with anybody who wasn't TOTALLY there, and there at the crucial moment decreed by the Emperor.

Worse case scenario, you have had your head cut off. Better case scenario you have a chance to get there at the right moment. Gazing briefly at your "marriage proposal" casting, I think that's a losing game. Something more basic is needed first. Your sincerity, your proposal of how the two of you will go forward, how the TEAM meshes, where her place in the team is from here forward, how much you love her and want to participate in life with her, how you plan to enact that dreams that relate to you two as a couple. But you need to get a foot in the door, at the right moment, and have all of this in mind. And most of all: MEAN IT. Hexagram 8 is also about motive, and are you sincere, and is this your true intention. Anything less is not going to be accepted and is going to stand out like a sore thumb when you try to tell her why you just don't want to live without her and that everything else would be meaningless to you if she isn't there, first and foremost.

 

[arabella]

In fact, hexagram 8, judgment, suggests that you cast again to divine your true motive; that is, if you are entirely sincere and devoted and in the proper frame of mind to pursue this. You might try that to get your bearings as well.

 

[arabella]

I see we are kind of overlapping here, saying some of the same things.

 

[arabella]

Final comment and then I'm off here for a while: When you are building this team with her, who needs to take what role? If you are leading the team, she needs to feel that, be secure in it, be happy with it. It's my guess this was the way it "should" have gone, but you were absent and she was wandering on her own. If she were intending to be leader, she still would have kept going and clued you in. So I'm thinking one of the major insecurities she was feeling was total lack of leadership. And I mean that in the most inclusive way of course. Not dictatorship, but a partnership with defined goals of a sort, and a romantic thread that you took seriously and kept in place. A job only includes you. But a relationship, a home, a life's purpose, a social life, a family life -- these include TWO. That has to be the priority and be put firmly into place, starting the minute you can get her attention again and move forward.

 

[arabella]

PPS:

Romantic gestures are wonderful, but to most women meaningless unless there is some cake under that icing.

 

[einhorn]

This is a hexagram of concord and unity, so that is auspicious. And it is unchanging, which suggests all good possibility for you to be together, in new circumstances, and in a better way.

There is an aspect of evening things up, measuring things properly, making things equal in this hexagram. That seems to have been missing as you were not focused on being with her. And that would have to be a reality, not just a promise, for the future. I would say, from an ethical standpoint, you have to know what partnership means to you. You have to have thought through HOW you would be married. What's in it for her, to be blunt.

Defining and beginning to create that, conveying that to her, would seem to be the imminent aspect of what needs to be DONE. Hexagram 8 has an interesting story behind it, of Fang Feng. There was a time of unifying a new kingdom in China, that the Hex 8 symbolises. All the warlords were called together to make a new nation. Fang Feng got there late, for whatever reason, and the Emperor cut off his head. He didn't want a new beginning with anybody who wasn't TOTALLY there, and there at the crucial moment decreed by the Emperor.

Worse case scenario, you have had your head cut off. Better case scenario you have a chance to get there at the right moment.

How do I know when the "right moment" is? Can the I Ching give answers about "when" to do something?

Gazing briefly at your "marriage proposal" casting, I think that's a losing game. Something more basic is needed first. Your sincerity, your proposal of how the two of you will go forward, how the TEAM meshes, where her place in the team is from here forward, how much you love her and want to participate in life with her, how you plan to enact that dreams that relate to you two as a couple.

Maybe flowers (to her work) without the marriage proposal. While proposing sounds like the appropriate climax of a romantic comedy, I don't think it's necessarily the best course of action now. Like you said, it should come from established strength, which is definitely not what is going on at the moment. I know sending flowers is cliche but she lives and works far away, plus her office is tight on security (key cards and security guards) and I don't think they'd let in non-employees (me), even if said non-employee was carrying a big bouquet of flowers

But you need to get a foot in the door, at the right moment, and have all of this in mind.

There's that "at the right moment" thing again.

I would assume that means "when she's missing me but before she's moved on" which is usually a fairly long period of time. She's probably trying to forget me as hard as I'm trying to come up with a way to fix things. But as most people who have been there know, trying to forget someone is quite the difficult task. It's like the game where you try to not think about a pink elephant, and if you think about a pink elephant you lose. By trying to not think about something, you think about it and end up making things worse. Too soon would mean she is still flustered from the event and hasn't realized how much she misses me. Too late would mean I took too long.

And most of all: MEAN IT. Hexagram 8 is also about motive, and are you sincere, and is this your true intention. Anything less is not going to be accepted and is going to stand out like a sore thumb when you try to tell her why you just don't want to live without her and that everything else would be meaningless to you if she isn't there, first and foremost.

Good point. So if I go the flowers route I'm limited to 175 characters on the card. Gonna have to be sincere AND concise!

But of course I mean it. Why would I even bother if I wasn't serious?

In fact, hexagram 8, judgment, suggests that you cast again to divine your true motive; that is, if you are entirely sincere and devoted and in the proper frame of mind to pursue this. You might try that to get your bearings as well.

So asking something like "what do I want from [name]?" Or maybe "why do I want to get back together with [name]?" That second question seems weird to me... isn't the answer obvious? Or is that an oversight on my part and is precisely why I should ask it?

Thanks again for all the help with interpretations. I may ask the I Ching a few more questions later and see what turns up, and of course post the responses so I can get help interpreting.

 

[einhorn]

now this is interesting:

Help me understand my feelings and intentions toward [name].
30.2 -> 14
according to my Ritsema and Karcher translation:
30 RADIANCE - expanding light, warmth, and awreness. Emphasizes that joining with and depending on what spreads this light, the action of radiance, is the adequate way to handle it. Congregate!

14 GREAT POSSESSING - organizing all your efforts around this idea is the adequate way to handle it. Possess the great!

(i'll have to look those up online later to get more interpretations. in my book, each hexagram has pages of explanation, but it's literally just definitions of each word in the translation which isn't too useful to me)

what will happen if i send [name] flowers to her work with a note, but no proposal for marriage? (this new question being based on the decision that proposing is the wrong course of action at this time)
60.2 -> 3

60 ARTICULATING - Confused relations. Making limits and connections clear, particularly through speech, is the adequate way to handle it. Articulate!

3 SPROUTING - Beginning growth. Collecting potential in preparation for arduous labor is the adequate way to handle it. Sprout!

again, i'll have to look up various online translations, but it sounds to me like from the second one, if i articulate what i need to say, the situation could transform into "beginning growth" of a new phase in our relationship. of course, this could be completely off once i read other interpretations.

I heard you shouldnt ask the same question twice in a short period of time, but is there any limit to how many different questions you can ask in a day, or in one session? i always try to clear my mind before each question, and do 1-3 questions per session.

 

[einhorn]

I'm so confused. In my book, 60 is "articulating" and talks specifically about SPEECH in the judgment.

At deoxy.org, 60 is "limitation" and talks specifically about setting limitations on yourself or others in the judgment.

Those don't even sound remotely similar.

 

[arabella]

You are moving at warp speed here and asking so many questions, never having delved into the first ones at all,building assumption upon assumption. I honestly don't think you can make up for years of inactivity in your relationship at home by getting the IChing by the throat here. First, calm down, take a deep breath.

Second, the IChing is not likely to give you a recipe on how to develop sensitivity toward a woman. This is going to have to come from you. You have the heads-up here on the major problems involved. But if you try to break it down into confirmations of sending flowers, not sending flowers, to me, this sounds more like the problem than an answer. You don't know really, what brings a response from the person you love.

Now, this is sounding like advice to the love lorn, which is really not the purpose of the Shared Readings. The purpose isn't really damage control, [the flowers or not question] but the study of the IChing in relation to leading a balanced life and personal development. So maybe we can back up a bit to there, and look more at the balanced life/personal development aspect of how you are coping in general. Then you'll have something that is far more useful in the overall.

Do you see where I am coming from? This isn't the lottery and you don't just win or lose the draw. The IChing has potential to guide you but isn't just a tool for chaos management, more of an overall guide for how you are managing potentials. In other words, maybe a style of quick solutions and bandaids is how you got to here in the first place.

 

[arabella]

I do hope others will join in here to give you additional perspective since you are obviously reeling and churning the water quite fast in an effort to get some comfort. Forgive me if any of this sounds harsh, but I think you need to slow down and assimilate some of what the IChing is saying to you. Calm is likely to bring more lasting answers.

 

[einhorn]

I understand what you're saying. i'm not here looking for relationship advice per se, but i do need help with interpretations. i'm curious about what the future holds, which courses of action may be preferable to others, etc. i'm not necessarily looking for a quick fix, but rather a method to help me fix what i messed up.

in the copy of the I Ching that i have, it talks about one of the reasons for consulting the I Ching can be when you can't think clearly due to anxiety, which is my situation now.

I know in matters such as this, acting hastily can be counter-productive, which is why i'm looking to the I Ching for guidance.

As for all the questions, i'm not sure how long one is supposed to let an answer "sink in." I don't want to overdo the castings but i'm excessively analytical by nature (can you tell? lol) so i usually want data, analyze the data, and proceed based on the findings.

there is no algorithm to run hexagrams through, so i sit and ponder them for a while, trusting that the answer will reveal itself to me personally through the interpretations. despite being very data driven and logical, i've had enough experiences in life that i believe there is something on another level besides just facts, figures, and logic. it is this "other level" that i hope to tap into when consulting the oracle.

so i sit in my room, clear my mind, write down the question, and focus on the question while tossing the coins and writing down the lines. i try to focus my mind on the question, or the action i am asking about as if it were happening, but NOT on the outcome that I want.

I then look up the hexagrams in my book (which ive stated isn't too much help) and then i go look up a few other sources online for other interpretation ideas, as well as for help with the changing lines, since my book is too dry with regard to the changing lines.

i try to look for symbolism in the answers (hard for me, since i am analytical by nature) because i know the oracle won't say "definitely do this" or "definitely don't do that" (altho sometimes it does say "success" or "success will not come" or something along those lines). I read the changing lines and the new hexagram they form which i interpret to be the future result if i proceed with the action i asked about. if i ask an introspective question ("help me understand my feelings about...") then i consider the future hexagram to be how my feelings will progress over time, or how i will feel in the future.

i'm not looking for a quick fix as much as a conceptual understanding of HOW to fix the issue at hand. teach a man to fish...

 

[arabella]

i'm not looking for a quick fix as much as a conceptual understanding of HOW to fix the issue at hand. teach a man to fish...

I do understand what you mean. I'd imagine you're used to taking in huge amounts of material, getting a trend, and then acting. But this situation is a bit different. Here, you have to pay attention to the detail a bit and understand the method you are dealing with. The bigger blizzard of questions and answers you create sometimes the less you know because you have totally confused yourself. It doesn't mean these aren't reasonable questions, but they aren't reasonable to ask all at once.

The point about teaching a man to fish is fine, but in relation to "fishing" in the IChing it's a complex skill to learn and it requires patience. So I wouldn't want to be in a lifetime crisis and relying on the IChing to tell me every move to make. Rather IChing suggests how to behave and then YOU have to apply that to your life and situation and make choices of your own.

In that respect,I'm still back on hexagram 8 thinking about how you let this woman know that you love her. She doesn't know. Doesn't that seem rather key?

When you cast Hexagram 8, judgment, the recommendation is that you enquire again to ask if your motives are the proper ones or do they need to be adjusted. This isn't necessarily another actual casting, it can be construed that you are simply asking yourself about your own motives. Are you doing the right thing? Are your motives appropriate? Are you prepared to take action? Going through this process with yourself might turn up some of the answers you need about approaching you partner the proper way.

Hexagram 8 says you need to do something. I think WHAT you do is your call. If you've done some meditating about your best options and what would make your partner FEEL loved then give it a try. I think some on here would tell you that too much analysis is as bad as none.

If anybody would like to jump on here and add something or correct what I'm saying, feel free. I think Einhorn wants to get underway soon and needs all the help he can gather in the meanwhile.

 

[arabella]

I agree, by the way, that consulting the IChing when anxiety is beating you down is just fine. However, my idea of why that works isn't that you churn out castings as fast as possible to match your anxiety level, but rather that the process of consulting, considering, contemplating and organising your response to a problem is extremely calming. The process can often put matters into perspective very neatly and you realise that the feeling of flailing disappears, having been replaced by a more centred and focused plan.

 

[einhorn]

I do understand what you mean. I'd imagine you're used to taking in huge amounts of material, getting a trend, and then acting.

Pretty much.

The point about teaching a man to fish is fine, but in relation to "fishing" in the IChing it's a complex skill to learn and it requires patience. So I wouldn't want to be in a lifetime crisis and relying on the IChing to tell me every move to make.

Me either. But I'm hoping it can provide insight beyond what I would otherwise consider.

Rather IChing suggests how to behave and then YOU have to apply that to your life and situation and make choices of your own.

In that respect,I'm still back on hexagram 8 thinking about how you let this woman know that you love her. She doesn't know. Doesn't that seem rather key?

I think so.

When you cast Hexagram 8, judgment, the recommendation is that you enquire again to ask if your motives are the proper ones or do they need to be adjusted. This isn't necessarily another actual casting, it can be construed that you are simply asking yourself about your own motives. Are you doing the right thing? Are your motives appropriate? Are you prepared to take action? Going through this process with yourself might turn up some of the answers you need about approaching you partner the proper way.

Hexagram 8 says you need to do something. I think WHAT you do is your call. If you've done some meditating about your best options and what would make your partner FEEL loved then give it a try. I think some on here would tell you that too much analysis is as bad as none.

Definitely agree with that last statement. I've been in that boat before.

If anybody would like to jump on here and add something or correct what I'm saying, feel free. I think Einhorn wants to get underway soon and needs all the help he can gather in the meanwhile.

Yeah @ the "soon" but I've learned that sometimes with matters of the heart, acting too soon is as bad as waiting too long. That's actually what I'm the worst at determining.

I'm looking to the I Ching to help me avoid big obvious mistakes. If I'm wondering if I should do a specific thing and I get a hexagram that definitely says "misfortune" or something along those lines, I'll rethink doing that action.

I agree, by the way, that consulting the IChing when anxiety is beating you down is just fine. However, my idea of why that works isn't that you churn out castings as fast as possible to match your anxiety level, but rather that the process of consulting, considering, contemplating and organising your response to a problem is extremely calming. The process can often put matters into perspective very neatly and you realise that the feeling of flailing disappears, having been replaced by a more centred and focused plan.

I'm not sure how long I'm supposed to ponder an answer. I'll read each interpretation a few times and look for symbolism. I don't try to use the I Ching as a decision chain (ask question one, answer, ok well then that generates question two, answer, ok well that generates question three, oh that's interesting, well in that case what about question four) because then I would feel like I was trying to force an outcome which I think is against the rules. But sometimes I do have a few questions which I will ask back to back because I had the questions in mind beforehand, not because one answer immediately leads to the next question.

Thanks for taking the time to reply in my thread

 

[arabella]

OK. A few things come to mind. One is to ask a question searching for direction from the IChing like "What is the most important thing to know about this situation right now?"
The answer to that may be illuminating.

Otherwise, besides merely contemplating, I would start looking at those impulses which come to mind with the answers you are already generating. That is, what are these casting saying to YOU that you should do now? For instance, Hexgram eight indicates you need to make some decisions and get moving at the proper moment. You've said that the proper moment is when she feels she misses you. How will you know when she misses you? Does she miss you yet? How are you going to find out?

 

[einhorn]

OK. A few things come to mind. One is to ask a question searching for direction from the IChing like "What is the most important thing to know about this situation right now?"
The answer to that may be illuminating.

i may try that question.

Otherwise, besides merely contemplating, I would start looking at those impulses which come to mind with the answers you are already generating. That is, what are these casting saying to YOU that you should do now?

that's why i have to read it a few times because i'm bad at understanding abstract stuff, or pulling definite concepts from non-specific things when there's room for interpretation, etc.

For instance, Hexgram eight indicates you need to make some decisions and get moving at the proper moment. You've said that the proper moment is when she feels she misses you. How will you know when she misses you? Does she miss you yet? How are you going to find out?

i think the proper moment is when she misses me because if i were to do something when she wasn't missing me, it would have the opposite effect. that's not I Ching right there; that's just psychology.

How will i know? has it happened yet? how will i find out? now THOSE are harder questions. I can estimate from what i know about her personality and from what i know about relationship dynamics, but that's the kind of stuff i tend to over analyze and second guess.

i don't suppose the I Ching could provide an insight into that. "when is the time to act?" "how does she feel about me?" i don't know if those are valid questions. i prefer "what should i expect/what will happen if i do x at y time?" especially if i get a changing line in the answer, or "how should i handle this situation?" especially if i get an answer like "act" or "wait" or "caution" or "charge through" or something along those lines.

but to be honest, i don't even know if those are valid questions to ask. i learned about the "what should i expect..." or "what should i do about..." construct from my book.

to literally answer the question of "how do/will i know", the obvious answer is to ask a mutual friend but that is a bad idea for a few reasons (social violation, subjective responses, and the fact that they'd immediately tell her i'm asking which, even tho my intentions are good, won't help anything due to social convention)

so yeah, i have to wait until she misses me or has doubts about breaking up.

hope i don't sound too crazy now

 

[arabella]

You don't sound crazy at all and it sounds like you're thinking, not churning. And believe me, I know the difference, I'm a great churner myself. I'd do the "most important thing to know question." to know what else is truly key here?

"When" is going to be difficult, although there are people here who read that, if they come on to help out.

But how about reading "most important thing to know" and see where it takes you? It's a more open question in which the IChing can give whatever guidance may truly help rather than you casting about for something specific that may miss a crucial point.

So far as WHAT to do when you do move forward on this relationship, hey you attracted this woman in the first place, you must have some sense of what makes her tick. Two and a half years is a long time to wait around for you to notice her. She must have some rather deep feelings for you and have thought you a special person. What did you do to attract her in the first place? Also, maybe ask the IChing what would bring her back?

 

[einhorn]

well, this doesnt sound too good so far.

what is the most important thing to know about my situation with [name]?
5.4 -> 43
according to my book, that's:
5: ATTENDING - situation is being compelled to wait for and serve something. it emphasizes fixing your attention on what is required while waiting carefully for the right moment to act is the adequate way to handle it. (so that was making me think i need to do *something* at the right moment)

but then

43: PARTING - seperation and diverging directions. resolutely dividing your energies is the correct way to handle it. Part! (i wonder if that is referring to us parting, as in like never seeing each other again? since this is the second hexagram, it suggests the future... i wait for the right moment to act and then we part? what? sounds like whatever action i do will lead to parting.)


what can i do to get [name] back?
2.3.5 -> 39

2: FIELD - primal structuring power confronted with many forces and obstacles. giving way in order to serve and yield results is the adequate way to handle it.

39: LIMPING - weak, afflicted or hampered. going ahead even though haltingly is the correct way to handle it.

im not sure what to make of those yet but they don't sound good. thoughts? i wonder if it's saying just forget about it (yield) and then move on with my life (which will be difficult, "going ahead haltingly")? but the question was what can i do to *get her back*. was that the wrong question to ask? or is this the I Ching's way of saying basically that can't be done? or does it mean *if* we got back together, that things would't go smoothly? or am i way off with these?

i'll have to look up some different interpretations online later tonight, too.

thanks.

 

[einhorn]

Ok here are some interpretations of my results from other websites.

(this is a long post that is mostly for me to have everything in one place, but of course comments from anyone are welcome)

what is the most important thing to know about my situation with [name]?
5.4 -> 43

#5

From eclecticenergies.com:

5. Waiting
Line 4:

Waiting in blood.
Get yourself out of the pit.

Waiting in a dangerous situation. One needs to get out off this as soon as possible.

Now, normally that website will show you all the info for the hexagram, your changing lines, and the one it changes into. But in this case when I did 5.4 changing into 43, all it gave me was the 4th line. I don't know if that's a computer code glitch or what. I'm going to assume it is. Either that or it means 5.4 is so incredibly serious that the judgment and future hexagram don't even matter.

From deoxy.org (Wilhelm translation):

THE JUDGMENT


WAITING. If you are sincere,
You have light and success.
Perseverance brings good fortune.
It furthers one to cross the great water.

Waiting is not mere empty hoping. It has the inner certainty of reaching the
goal. Such certainty alone gives that light which leads to success. This leads
to the perseverance that brings good fortune and bestows power to cross the
great water. One is faced with a danger that has to be overcome. Weakness
and impatience can do nothing. Only a strong man can stand up to his fate,
for his inner security enables him to endure to the end. This strength shows
itself in uncompromising truthfulness [with himself]. It is only when we
have the courage to face things exactly as they are, without any sort of self-
deception or illusion, that a light will develop out of events, by which the
path to success may be recognized. This recognition must be followed by
resolute and persevering action. For only the man who goes to meet his fate
resolutely is equipped to deal with it adequately. Then he will be able to cross
the great water—that is to say, he will be capable of making the necessary
decision and of surmounting the danger.

Changing on the 4th line:
Six in the fourth place means:
Waiting in blood.
Get out of the pit.

The situation is extremely dangerous. IT is of utmost gravity now—a matter
of life and death. Bloodshed seems imminent. There is no going forward or
backward; we are cut off as if in a pit. Now we must simply stand fast and let
fate take its course. This composure, which keeps us from aggravating the
trouble by anything we might do, is the only way of getting out of the
dangerous pit.

Holy crap that changing at line 4 sounds hardcore and serious. That one sounds like a definite "don't do anything."

But the first one says that 5.4 is "definitely get yourself out of the bad situation." Wilhelm is "you're in a bad situation but the only thing you can do is wait; you can't go forward or backward." Those are pretty opposite of each other. I'm confused.


#43, the future hexagram of my first question.

From eclecticenergies.com:

Deciding

Deciding.
Making it known at the king's court.
Crying out the truth is dangerous.
Telling the city oneself,
it is a disadvantage to be close to battle.
It is beneficial to have a goal to move to.

A decision. To inform others about the decision, it is best to tell key people first. It is not a good idea to bluntly tell the truth, or to get aggressive about this. Having a positive purpose in mind will work better. It is good to have a plan.

Key people? Not a good idea to bluntly tell the truth? That's a head scratcher, especially since this represents the FUTURE after that crazy 5.4 where I'm either supposed to GET OUT NOW or wait because I can't do anything (contradictions? I'm so confused!)

From Wilhelms translation:

This hexagram signifies on the one hand a break-through after a long
accumulation of tension, as a swollen river breaks through its dikes, or in the
manner of a cloudburst. On the other hand, applied to human conditions, it
refers to the time when inferior people gradually begin to disappear. Their
influence is on the wane; as a result of resolute action, a change in conditions
occurs, a break-through. The hexagram is linked with the third month
[April-May].


THE JUDGMENT


BREAK-THROUGH. One must resolutely make the matter known
At the court of the king.
It must be announced truthfully. Danger.
It is necessary to notify one's own city.
It does not further to resort to arms.
It furthers one to undertake something.

Even if only one inferior man is occupying a ruling position in a city, he is
able to oppress superior men. Even a single passion still lurking in the heart
has power to obscure reason. Passion and reason cannot exist side by side-
therefore fight without quarter is necessary if the good is to prevail.

In a resolute struggle of the good against evil, there are, however, definite
rules that must not be disregarded, if it is to succeed. First, resolution must be
based on a union of strength and friendliness. Second, a compromise with
evil is not possible; evil must under all circumstances be openly discredited.
Nor must our own passions and shortcomings be glossed over. Third, the
struggle must not be carried on directly by force. If evil is branded, it thinks of
weapons, and if we do it the favor of fighting against it blow for blow, we lose
in the end because thus we ourselves get entangled in hatred and passion.
Therefore it is important to begin at home, to be on guard in our own persons
against the faults we have branded. In this way, finding no opponent, the
sharp edges of the weapons of evil becomes dulled. For the same reasons we
should not combat our own faults directly. As long as we wrestle with them,
they continue victorious. Finally, the best way to fight evil is to make
energetic progress in the good.

And the second question:
what can i do to get [name] back?
2.3.5 -> 39

From eclecticenergies:

2. Land
Line 3:

Keeping the story to oneself allows for persistence.
Somebody attending to the king's affairs,
is without achievement, but will bring things to an end.

Quietly doing work for someone else, without taking credit. This makes it possible to get the job completed.
Line 5:

A yellow lower garment.
A source of good fortune.

Being modest and ordinary. This allows for things to go well.
(Such a lower garment is like a kilt or skirt, and was commonly worn in ancient China. Nobles had embroidered ones. Yellow was considered the color of the sand, and thus an Earth symbol.)


Hexagram is changing to:
39. Trouble

Trouble.
Beneficial is the southwest,
not beneficial is the northeast.
It is beneficial to see a senior person.
Persistence brings good fortune.

There is trouble. It is beneficial to have partners and allies, and avoid people who have different interests. Some advice or help might get one through. Things will go well if one perseveres.
(At the original place and time of the Yijing, allies were in the southwest, territory they wanted to conquer was in the northeast.)

No idea about that one.



Wilhelm's Translation of #2 and the changing lines 3 and 5:

This hexagram is made up of broken lines only. The broken lines represents
the dark, yielding, receptive primal power of yin. The attribute of the
hexagram is devotion; its image is the earth. It is the perfect complement of
THE CREATIVE—the complement, not the opposite, for the Receptive does
not combat the Creative but completes it . It represents nature in contrast to
spirit, earth in contrast to heaven, space as against time, the female-maternal
as against the male-paternal. However, as applied to human affairs, the
principle of this complementary relationship is found not only in the relation
between man and woman, but also in that between prince and minister and
between father and son. Indeed, even in the individual this duality appears
in the coexistence of the spiritual world and the world of the senses.

But strictly speaking there is no real dualism here, because there is a clearly
defined hierarchic relationship between the two principles. In itself of course
the Receptive is just as important as the Creative, but the attribute of
devotion defines the place occupied by this primal power in relation to the
Creative. For the Receptive must be activated and led by the Creative; then it
is productive of good. Only when it abandons this position and tries to stand
as an equal side by side with the Creative, does it become evil. The result
then is opposition to and struggle against the Creative, which is productive of
evil to both.


THE JUDGMENT


THE RECEPTIVE brings about sublime success,
Furthering through the perseverance of a mare.
If the superior man undertakes something and tries to lead,
He goes astray;
But if he follows, he finds guidance.
It is favorable to find friends in the west and south,
To forego friends in the east and north.
Quiet perseverance brings good fortune.

The four fundamental aspects of the Creative—"sublime success, furthering
through perseverance"—are also attributed to the Receptive. Here, however,
the perseverance is more closely defined: it is that of a mare. The Receptive
connotes spatial reality in contrast to the spiritual potentiality of the Creative.
The potential becomes real and the spiritual becomes spatial through a
specifically qualifying definition. Thus the qualification, "of a mare," is here
added to the idea of perseverance. The horse belongs to earth just as the
dragon belongs to heaven. Its tireless roaming over the plains is taken as a
symbol of the vast expanse of the earth. This is the symbol chosen because
the mare combines the strength and swiftness of the horse with the
gentleness and devotion of the cow.

Only because nature in its myriad forms corresponds with the myriad
impulses of the Creative can it make these impulses real. Nature's richness
lies in its power to nourish all living things; its greatness lies in its power to
give then beauty and splendor. Thus it prospers all that lives. IT is the
Creative that begets things, but they are brought to birth by the Receptive.
Applied to human affairs, therefore, what the hexagram indicated is action in
conformity with the situation. The person in questions not in an
independent position, but is acting as an assistant. This means that he must
achieve something. It is not his task to try to lead—that would only make him
lose the way-but to let himself be led. If he knows how to meet fate with an
attitude of acceptance, he is sure to find the right guidance. The superior man
lets himself be guided; he does not go ahead blindly, but learns from the
situation what is demanded of him and then follows this intimation from
fate.

Since there is something to be accomplished, we need friends and helpers in
the hour of toil and effort, once the ideas to be realized are firmly set. The
time of toil and effort is indicated by the west and south, for west and south
symbolize the place where the Receptive works for the Creative, as nature
does in summer and autumn. If in that situation one does not mobilize all
one's powers, the work to be accomplished will not be done. Hence to find
friends there means to find guidance. But in addition to the time of toil and
effort, there is also a time of planning, and for this we need this solitude. The
east symbolized the place where a man receives orders from his master, and
the north the place where he reports on what he has done. At that time he
must be alone and objective. In this sacred hour he must do without
companions. So that the purity of the moment may not be spoiled by fictional
hates and favoritism.



Six in the third place means:
Hidden lines.
One is able to remain persevering.
If by chance you are in the service of a king,
Seek not works, but bring to completion.

If a man is free of vanity he is able to conceal his abilities and keep them from
attracting attention too soon; thus he can mature undisturbed. If conditions
demand it, he can also enter public life, but that too he does with restraint.
The wise man gladly leaves fame to others. He does not seek to have credited
to himself things that stand accomplished, but hopes to release active forces;
that is, he completes his works in such a manner that they may bear fruit for
the future.


Six in the fifth place means:
A yellow lower garment brings supreme good fortune.

Yellow is the color of the earth and of the middle; it is the symbol of that
which is reliable and genuine. The lower garment is inconspicuously
decorated—the symbol of aristocratic reserve. When anyone is called upon to
work in a prominent but not independent position, true success depends on
the utmost discretion. A man's genuineness and refinement should not
reveal themselves directly; they should express themselves only indirectly as
an effect from within.

I'm gonna have to read that a few more times.

And #39 from Wilhelm:

The hexagram pictures a dangerous abyss lying before us and a steep,
inaccessible mountain rising behind us. We are surrounded by obstacles; at
the same time, since the mountain has the attribute of keeping still, there is
implicit a hint as to how we can extricate ourselves. The hexagram represents
obstructions that appear in the course of time but that can and should be
overcome. Therefore all the instruction given is directed to overcoming
them.


THE JUDGMENT


OBSTRUCTION. The southwest furthers.
The northeast does not further.
It furthers one to see the great man.
Perseverance brings good fortune.

The southwest is the region of retreat, the northeast that of advance. Here an
individual is confronted by obstacles that cannot be overcome directly. In
such a situation it is wise to pause in view of the danger and to retreat.
However, this is merely a preparation for overcoming the obstructions. One
must join forces with friends of like mind and put himself under the
leadership of a man equal to the situation: then one will succeed in
removing the obstacles. This requires the will to persevere just when one
apparently must do something that leads away from his goal. This
unswerving inner purpose brings good fortune in the end. An obstruction
that lasts only for a time is useful for self-development. This is the value of
adversity.

Man I have a lot to read.

Again, I just posted this for myself so I'd have everything all in one area, but feel free to add your comments!

Also, how come some sources have different or conflicting/opposite advice for the same lines? like 5.4 being "wait!" at one translation and "get out now!" at another? Those are opposites. How can 5.4 mean both?

 

[arabella]

I think Hexcagram 5.4 changing to Hexagram 43 is giving you more detail about what the IChing said in the first place. Which makes sense to me, because you were told, first reading you did, what is wrong and how to fix it. And, as I said, until you've exhausted that first reading, I wouldn't confuse myself by bombarding the IChing with more questions. And you aren't comfortable with that, and you go on. But I believe you are making assumptions that the IChing says it's getting worse and worse when, in fact, it's just trying to convey in stronger language what it said from the beginning. Does that make sense?

The recurring theme I see here is SINCERITY. That would appear to be why you cast hexagram 8 at the start as well. You were asked to examine your motives for something within you that makes what you want to happen possible -- or impossible.

I keep coming back to that hexagram because it seems to still be at the bottom of the pile-up. YOU are going to be the key to all of this, which means, what you know, your attitude, how you behave in the situation. If this were my reading I just wouldn't go past there. Because, so far, nothing has changed. All you've done is cast, cast, cast and speculate. The conditions that brought you to the IChing are exactly the same as when you began. Why would the reading then change?

And the additional questions you ask, I believe the IChing is saying, add dimensions of difficulty certainly. But you still haven't addressed the first problem. Which is: can YOU do this. Are you sincere? Do you know how to demonstrate that? HOW will you demonstrate? WHEN?

So, if you haven't even decided THAT much, I think the IChing is going to say, this gets tougher and tougher and turns into a pit of blood, because you aren't listening and learning.

Hexagram 8 refers you directly back to yourself and recommends that you become SUBLIME or assure that you act with sublimity. Do you know what that means? This is big. It means that you have the ability to be entirely honourable and to exalt the other person, to create an overall state of excellence. In the alchemic sense, it means that you become a magician of sorts, that you can vaporise and reappear in a solid state and then vaporise again. So what can this mean to a relationship? I think it says that you do SUBSTANTIAL things that can be seen, touched, are obvious. You make the import of the relationship truly felt, of paramount importance. There may be times when this fades into background a bit [vaporises] BUT IT IS ALWAYS THERE. It is still pervasive and permeates the entire atmosphere. Do you see all that there is in Hexagram 8? Why do we need more?

This is an enormous idea. It covers flowers and marriage proposals, dinner and softlight. And beyond that it says that your relationship should be all day everyday, not postponed for two and a half years while you get your act together. If you are ready for this, be entirely ready. Stand up tall, and make yourself so OBVIOUSLY ready that this lady can't possibly doubt you. Sweep her off her feet and keep it that way for life. Leave no question in her mind, or yours.

Now, knowing her as you do, how do you achieve this? The Hexagram says to act, so what are you doing? It doesn't say cast and cast and cast until you are depressed. And it isn't going to tell you to send flowers or not. ANYWAY, if you are being sincere, this comes from you. What do YOU think you should do? You've got to feel something, sense it. As Hexagram 5 says, you don't just WAIT, you have to build certainty, you have to convince yourself before you can convince anybody else.

When I listen to you, quite honestly, it sounds like somebody who is building a sales campaign that "can't fail." I don't think the IChing is calling for this. I think it's saying, if you are SINCERE you can't fail. You don't need to analyse, strategise and manipulate. You need to be your most sincere, loving and apologetic self.

OK. Did you ever see a movie called "Parenthood"? In it, Rick Moranis is a big egghead who really loves his wife. But he runs the family like the Mensa Academy or something and nothing is real. So his wife gets fed up and she leaves. And he is desperate and tracks her down the only place he can, at her teaching job, and he walks in and starts singing "their" song to her in front of a whole classrom of kids. She wants to throw him out, but then she sees he is sincere. Because for once in his life, he means something, just from the heart. No big rationale, not measuring and weighing, no charts and graphs, just him. Now, this isn't the IChing speaking here, but I think you need some kind of ultimately sincere gesture, what is obviously for YOU a big risk, but entirely yourself, just being you. Something utterly believable and absolutely convincing because YOU shine through as somebody who wants to be her partner, to be a team with her, to be equals and friends for all time.

Now meditate a bit and don't blizzard me with words and ten more hexagrams. What is on that scale for you? Where can you start to show her the real you, the sublimity of your relationship and that it has quality and endurance for the long haul?

 

[lucia]

This is going to have to come from you. You have the heads-up here on the major problems involved. But if you try to break it down into confirmations of sending flowers, not sending flowers, to me, this sounds more like the problem than an answer. You don't know really, what brings a response from the person you love.

This is true and is echoed in your 11.2 answer. Amongst other things I think that 11.2 is about not seeing someone or the fear of not being seen or both usually.

And 60.2 says cool it and do a little thinking outside the box - you are stuck otherwise - confined by a parochial view of it all.

Most of the time I don't see the resulting hex as an "outcome" but more like a context and in this case 3 talks about your confusion.

Meng wrote something interesting about 8 unchanging ages ago - "Don't push the river" (or was it Brad - anyway - it was a set of comments between Meng and Brad) - short and sweet. Look in the archive they are there somewhere.

I'm not sure how long I'm supposed to ponder an answer

As long as it takes....... try keeping a journal it is so useful and means you get real opportunities to revisit answers in a new head space.

5.4 is talking about your frame of mind right now - you are just going round and round in the pit and the ching's advice is very clear - "Get out of the pit" - stop. 43 says this has all been building up for a long time and it is an important moment but as the water deluges down from heaven you need to be in control of where/how it flows or you are just going to have a massive flash flood on your hands. Stop obsessing in other words............. Why do you have to "act" now? Why can't you just take time to cool out and allow other things to gradually come into your field of vision.

I suspect it is your urge to "do" something that is part of the problem here.............

what can i do to get [name] back?
2.3.5 -> 39

Not a lot right now except accept the obstruction. In 2.3 it is done and dusted in a way. What matters is that whatever it was that you have had with this woman is an entity in itself and maybe she will or maybe she won't see that.

And 2.5 says you can't control the situation so don't try. Instead, be more responsive rather than directive, be open and allow things to flow into you.

You can't do that if you are in the pit (5.4) by the way.

Sorry this is a quickie but I hope it helps........

Lucia