44.2... exploring further...

[Vissino]

I know that there are a lot of topics about the interpretation of 44.2.
I was searching about 44.2 so as to find out what could be a wallet of fish.. I have it a lot of times recently.
My thoughts...

- Someone who is busy with many things and doesn't want guests.
- Financial problems?
- An other woman or relationship?
- A lot of adversities?
- worries and fears?

Any other thoughts?

 

[peter2610]

Fish were regarded as one of the lowest forms of life with little intelligence. An inferior idea is regarded as a fish in the tank. If it is kept in the tank then the inferior idea is not expressed or made manifest and all should remain well, but if the tank is empty (line 4) that means the inferior idea has been made manifest and misfortune will result.
The resultant (Hex 11, Peace) is urging anyone considering releasing the inferior idea to abide in Peace.

 

[rosada]

Something is confusing here.
44.2 leads to 33.
44.4 leads to 57.
If you were trying to get to 11.Peace from 44 you would need 4 change lines: 44.1.4.5.6. - 11.

 

[Vissino]

I am confused too.
I don't ask about the interpretation of a cast. I would like to know what 44.2 means. Just this.

 

[rosada]

I think Peter was saying that 44.2 means that if a not well thought out idea or impulse is kept restrained it will not cause a problem.
I think he is elaborating on his interpretation by saying that 44.4 means if the fish gets out of the tank, if an inferior idea gets unrestrained, gets loose, gets expression, then there will be misfortune.

 

[rodaki]

adding my 2 cents . .

the simplest thing to say abt it is that someone has something to share yet chooses for their own reasons not to . . in my experience fish has been a source of nourishment and/or objects of desire but in every case they are slippery, elusive creatures and it's better to not try too hard to catch them

 

[Trojina]

I know that there are a lot of topics about the interpretation of 44.2.
I was searching about 44.2 so as to find out what could be a wallet of fish.. I have it a lot of times recently.
My thoughts...

- Someone who is busy with many things and doesn't want guests.
- Financial problems?
- An other woman or relationship?
- A lot of adversities?
- worries and fears?

Any other thoughts?

It is a time where one keeps back something for oneself, it is not time to offer it to others. There's a thread on 44.2 and 'bin rites' somewhere. I think it's basically saying there is something there, ie fish, but it isn't time to commit or make offerings. Will see if I can find thread I was thinking of.

 

[Trojina]

Here we are from an ancient thread, if you read down a bit

https://web.archive.org/web/2005010....co.uk/I_Ching_community/messages/48/830.html

From Steve Marshall on that thread

--- "does not further guests" is not a great translation. It is probably a reference to the "bin rite" whereby a man would introduce his new wife to his ancestors. The meaning here is that while the omen is good it is not enough as yet to go so far as the bin rite, probably in say 3 months time you would have a better idea. Much as in the west there is a common caution against marrying someone you have only just met, leave it a while, see how it pans out. That is the kind of meaning here, ie: looks good, but see how it develops.

Let me stress, the caution here is not against going ahead, not at all, the caution is against thinking more of it than it merits at this stage (which I might add is good advice whenever consulting the oracle). But if you read into that an injunction not to go ahead at all, then you are missing what the oracle is telling you and allowing your misinterpretation to hold you back from life

 

[canislulu]

Thank you, everyone, for all of your input here which is helping expand my understanding of this line. And thank you, Vissino, for asking the question which seeded this exchange.

My initial understanding of line 44.2 was that the "fish in the tank" was a good idea that needed "incubating" so to speak, so that one needed to retreat from outside ideas/influences/guests and tend to the fish in the tank until it was ready to be employed/eaten/whatever.

But I did have an experience of the line in which the "fish in the tank" was a "bad" thing that made the "tank" uninhabitable for guests. I had asked the question about my return from a visit to my family to a room I had rented in a co-housing situation. I thought it was advise to keep to myself for a while, incubating my employment ideas/ attending to the filing of deferred taxes/ and such. When I lived the experience of the return I realized that the "fish" was the very bad smell of awful, perhaps rancid paint my room had been painted with in my absence while visiting my family. The "room" was toxic to me as its guest. The ironic thing was that I had agonized over choosing a paint and gone to a special store that specialized in paints for folks with allergies. Either I should have not purchased the can that was on sale, or the non-tenant Quaker residents of the Quaker house I was moving into did not really want me there and were hoping I would be unhappy with the room and leave. I suspect I just made a bad purchase. And it would have been better not for me to keep to myself in that room "incubating" my ideas. It would have been better for me to spend time in the common areas of the house getting to know the other "guests/inhabitants" better.

I suspect that sometimes the fish is a favorable thing to be kept to oneself and nourished and sometimes it is an unfavorable thing that needs to be contained or avoided.

I guess if a "tank" is a "wallet" then it could be about storing money and not giving it away. There is a time to store and a time to share. One would have to discern according to the specific situation.

And regarding Steve Marshall's comments on "three months" I am wondering if "three months" could also be "three years". Though interestingly, in regards to the co-housing situation and my experience of 44.2, it was in 3 months after my return to my room that it became clear that it was an unpalatable situation even outside of the stinky room and I began having trouble containing being "pissed off".

 

[Vissino]

You are great!!! Thank you!!! :hugs:

 

[peter2610]

I think Peter was saying that 44.2 means that if a not well thought out idea or impulse is kept restrained it will not cause a problem.
I think he is elaborating on his interpretation by saying that 44.4 means if the fish gets out of the tank, if an inferior idea gets unrestrained, gets loose, gets expression, then there will be misfortune.

Thanks Rosada, yes, the link between 2nd and 4th yangs is perhaps most clearly set out by Liu Yi Ming: 2nd Yang: WHEN THE FISH IS IN THE BAG, THERE'S NO FAULT. IT IS NOT ADVANTAGEOUS TO THE VISITOR.
Strength applied with flexibility, cautious and wary, able to ward off the first arising mundanity, is like a fish being in a bag, unable to cause harm.

4th Yang: NO FISH IN THE BAG CAUSES TROUBLE. Being strong yet losing mindfulness, unable to prevent mundanity and even indulging mundanity, sitting by and watching the outcome - the mind of Tao is obscured and the human mentality springs up wildly, so trouble arises, creating obstructions, like a fish getting out of a bag, going anywhere it wants.

Ming is emphasising the correct security of a mind that can control its negative urges - and the insecure danger of a mind that fails in this regard. Wilhelm outlines the situation in greater detail: The fish (a yin element) is linked to bottom yin, this line is in a relationship of correspondence to 4th yang, the "guest," but through this relationship "the yin element would penetrate too far into the hexagram", so 2nd yang is directed to gently restrain it.

 

[peter2610]

Something is confusing here.
44.2 leads to 33.
44.4 leads to 57.
If you were trying to get to 11.Peace from 44 you would need 4 change lines: 44.1.4.5.6. - 11.

Quite right Rosada, my mistake. I think I was possibly intending to combine 44,2 and 44,4 giving Hex 53. I'm still recovering from a stroke so I'm afraid mistakes like that are still happening. Best wishes, Peter

 

[peter2610]

Something is confusing here.
44.2 leads to 33.
44.4 leads to 57.
If you were trying to get to 11.Peace from 44 you would need 4 change lines: 44.1.4.5.6. - 11.

Quite right Rosada, my mistake. I think I was possibly intending to combine 44,2 and 44,4 giving Hex 53. I'm still recovering from a stroke so I'm afraid mistakes like that are still happening. Best wishes, Peter