52. Ken / Keeping Still, Mountain

[Sparhawk]

Dipping my tongue into my brain and leave it there for 3 days ...

Interesting comment. Perhaps Martin will recognize some interesting parallels. I wonder about your source for it.

 

[maremaria]

Interesting comment. Perhaps Martin will recognize some interesting parallels. I wonder about your source for it.

I have heard that expression from the grandmother of a friend. "dip your tongue into your brain before you talk", she was saying.

 

[martin]

Interesting comment. Perhaps Martin will recognize some interesting parallels. I wonder about your source for it.

You didn't know that Maremaria is a satguru?

 

[Sparhawk]

You didn't know that Maremaria is a satguru?

Now I know...

 

[maremaria]

Martin !!!! that was a secret

Ok then,

Luis, My real name is Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami,
162nd preceptor of the Nandinatha Sampradaya's
Kailasa Parampara


Here is my site : http://www.himalayanacademy.com/satgurus/gurudeva/

 

[martin]

Nah, and I thought you were a Greek girl ..
Naughty satguru!

 

[bamboo]

Three years ago, I received several shocks in my life....the hexagram received at that time was 52 with no changing lines. It was extremely difficult for me to 'be still' when everything was crashing around and within me. In one month, I lost my father, my job, a relationship and developed an illness called Fibromyalgia.

During that period I learned alot about myself, my strengths, my weaknesses and as well, had many obstacles and self-created traps to overcome. But through it al. there were many opportunities. presented. that allowed me to reestablish and reclaim myself and help my immediate family.

It was a time of learning to believe in myself and my need for independence. Each step was a goal, although I didn't know this at the time. Others saw me as self-centered and inconsiderate.....it was later they told me they envied how I could lead my own life without being influenced of others....many were resistant to the emerging 'new me'. And as I climbed each step, many friends were lost, it felt lonely as I got to the top but the top was where I was supposed to be. I needed to isolate myself and focus what was important to me!

The gestation period of an elephant is about 18 months and it did take over a year of meditating, visualizing, to discover my power, strength, and a solid balance of body, mind and spirit. Through this endured silence, I found my love, my passion, and commitment to reestablish my healing profession and started a newsletter in my community as well as teaching Alternative Healing.

So the symbol of mountain/elephant helped me to create an environment where I can go anytime to be silent and still. In this silence we can reach a higher state of consciouness that allows us to dance with spirit, merge joyfully with the Divine, let go and just BE.

ravenstar

very inspiring story, ravenstar! thank you so much for sharing that with us

 

[maremaria]

(...trying to catch up this loooong thread. )

Bamboo, just read your post about heart. Great stuff !!!

Ravenstar :Three years ago, I received several shocks in my life....the hexagram received at that time was 52 with no changing lines. It was extremely difficult for me to 'be still' when everything was crashing around and within me. In one month, I lost my father, my job, a relationship and developed an illness called Fibromyalgia.

During that period I learned alot about myself, my strengths, my weaknesses and as well, had many obstacles and self-created traps to overcome. But through it al. there were many opportunities. presented. that allowed me to reestablish and reclaim myself and help my immediate family.

It was a time of learning to believe in myself and my need for independence. Each step was a goal, although I didn't know this at the time. Others saw me as self-centered and inconsiderate.....it was later they told me they envied how I could lead my own life without being influenced of others....many were resistant to the emerging 'new me'. And as I climbed each step, many friends were lost, it felt lonely as I got to the top but the top was where I was supposed to be. I needed to isolate myself and focus what was important to me!

Ravenstar, I can relate a lot to that.!!! My experience with 52 is something like what you describe.

 

[maremaria]

Nah, and I thought you were a Greek girl ..
Naughty satguru!

One line . 52.5

 

[charly]

The Elephant is Slow to Mate ...

Bamboo:

Beautiful poem indeed.

Maybe it give us the key about why Wilhelm translated GEN as KEEPING STILL.

Stillness, not to be quiet but to behave slowly.

I apologize for not being more extensive, I'm too bussy at work and have little time for the forum. But I'm still collecting the striking chinese charactrers for H.52.

Meanwhile, this reference for those who love this memorious and gentle people:

The Retreat of the Elephants
An Environmental History of China

... Elvin chronicles the spread of the Chinese style of farming that eliminated the habitat of the elephants that populated the country alongside much of its original wildlife; the destruction of most of the forests; the impact of war on the environmental transformation of the landscape; and the re-engineering of the countryside through water-control systems, some of gigantic size.

He documents the histories of three contrasting localities within China to show how ecological dynamics defined the lives of the inhabitants. And he shows that China in the eighteenth century, on the eve of the modern era, was probably more environmentally degraded than northwestern Europe around this time...

From: http://yalepress.yale.edu/yupbooks/book.asp?isbn=0300101112

Can see a sample in GoogleBooks.

Yours,

Charly

 

[charly]

Six in the fifth place means:
Keeping his jaws still.
The words have order.
Remorse disappears.

A man in a dangerous situation, especially when he's not adequate to it, is inclined to be very free with talk and presumptuous jokes. But injudicious speech easily leads to situations that subsequently give much cause for regret. However, if a man is reserved in speech, his words take ever more definite form, and every occasion for regret vanishes.

I'm wondering how is possible to emit words with the jaws still.

艮 gen4 keeping still, maybe move, worship or honor fits better (1)
其 qi2 his
輔 fu3 jaws, fu means mainly the upper jaw-bone → scapulimancy (?), but fu also means help, to provide assistance (2)

言 yan2 [the] words, speech
有 you3 have
序 xu4 order, rank

悔 hui3 remorse, regret
亡 wang2 disappears, vanishes
​

Maybe it's saying that the older oracles are the better, that the more primitive are the more wise when advicing.

And that, after all, the heart and the mind change.

And, of course, it also speaks of ancient sexual customs and marriage rites, but this is another story (3).

Yours,

Charly

_______________________________________

(1) 艮 gen4 depicts a leaning MAN below a great EYE (meaning Divinity, Providence) → WORSHIPING the old GODS or GODDESSES, maybe the mountain goddess, the SNAKE, well known for the powerful tongue and the power of conviction.

(2) 輔 fu3 divination by JAW-BONES is propper of primitive nomadic people, maybe the barbars from the west. The character depicts a CART / CHARIOT at the left and at the right something like a PLANT issuing from the LAND, CARTS + LANDS FOR PASTURES → pastures are a gift of Gods for the people of carts, the NOMADS, and these Gods are of course MOUNTAIN GODS (remember the tibetan worship of the mountain gods?)

(3) People interested in this sort of questions could find profitable to examine some key words:

52: 背 qi2 to be burdened / back / shoulder [dissagree -two opposed people- over a moon or a piece of meat, meaning sacrifice]

52.1: 趾 zhi3 toes / lower fingers [foot with big toe + upright / erect]

52.2: 腓 fei2 calf of leg / [meat / flesh + NO]

52.3: 限 xian4 limit / bound / up to the limit [mountain + GEN]

列 lie4 to arrange / to line up [scapula-one + knife]​

52.4: 身shen1 body / pregnancy / self [a pregnant woman]

52.5: 輔fu3 jaw-bone / to help [cart + plant / land]

52.6: 敦 dun1 kind-hearted

 

[meng]

I'm wondering how is possible to emit words with the jaws still.

lol!

Maybe it's saying that the older oracles are the better, that the more primitive are the more wise when advicing.

And that, after all, the heart and the mind change.

I've generally found that to be true, Charly.

Stabilize the jaw - another metaphor, like the thinking heart, which is centered in the mind. "Think before you speak" - that's pretty common parental advise. But bringing the mind into a state of pause, rest or stillness is better than consciously thinking out an appropriate answer, because then innocence and spontaneity come to play in our speech.

 

[maremaria]

But bringing the mind into a state of pause, rest or stillness is better than consciously thinking out an appropriate answer, because then innocence and spontaneity come to play in our speech.

I like that and I agree . There are time that we have say or heard words being upset or angry and then there is regret. We have a saying here , " a tongue has no bones but it can brake bones" (in a loose translation) . Speak out, being in a calm state, even if what we say might be not pleasant to the other's ears, it gives us the power to express what we really want to say, feelings , thoughts ,etc. No need to regret afterwards ( most of the times, lol)

 

[ginnie]

Thought stopping

In motionless sitting, our brains stop making thoughts.

We we lie down motionlessly, our brains stop making thoughts.

Even in the West, we now have access to a lot of knowledge about what is called meditation. But all it means, fundamentally, is to sit completely still for a while, or to lie down completely still for a while.

And then the brain stops manufacturing thoughts . . .

The jaw relaxes. We do not need to say anything to anybody. Everything relaxes.

The whole body is released from our relentless demands upon it.

 

[Sparhawk]

I'm wondering how is possible to emit words with the jaws still.

The line does no actually speaks of emitting words. It speaks of "words" and of them having an "order." Not all mantras have to be spoken; the only requisite is that they need to be repeated. That can be done without a single exhalation. Words exists before manifestation. That's why I mentioned above that, in some contextual interpretations, it refers to meditation and meditation techniques.

 

[ravenstar]

SI = Small Intestine
St = Stomach
LI = Large Intestine
GB = Gall Bladder
TH = Triple Warmer

It is interesting that all these meridians intersect the neck/throat area...the shoulder area is affected too. When something presents itself we cannot swallow or stomach, it creates tension in the throat and neck muscles as well as our digestion.

Grinding of the teeth is said to be about suppressed or repressed anger and rage that needs to be expressed. Also Hypothyroidism and Graves disease can be the result of 'too much power' here.

meng, bamboo, charly, barbra, have all expressed their feelings of 52.5 (hope I didn't leave anyone out!). Each of them have their own personal intelligence system that picks up information and interprets it. Information is picked up through the senses....eyes, ears, nose, skin, muscles and inner ear....relayed to our brain through the nervous system and then interpreted. And from reading each other's posts, they found the perfect time to express themselves to each other and the worldwide web.

In the chakra system, the 2nd chakra is seen as a dynamic and driving energy. This energy eventually finds it way to the 5th chakra, where these two forces find expression through the throat area. The 2nd chakra (sacral area) and 5th (throat) are a very strong interactive pair within the chakra system.

Our creativity, sexuality, power and empowerment needs the throat area to express and communicate. On a physical level this chakra governs the nervous system, the female reproductive organs, the vocal cords and ears. Both the thyroid and parathyroid glands are linked with the endocrine glands. The ancients once called the Thyroid, the 3rd Ovary.....we are able to consciously and deliberately activate power, life and vitality through our words.

The Throat Chakra…..From http://www.pharrah13.com/Chakra.html (Great site on the chakras)

"The throat chakra is situated in the neck area of the body. On a physical level this chakra governs the throat, thyroid, mouth, teeth, tongue, and jaw.

The problems that we have on this level are, sore throats, over and under active thyroids that can lead to a lack of energy, vitality, overweight and underweight problems........

On an emotional level this chakra governs the aspects of communication, willpower, truthfulness and creativity. . . If we cannot express ourselves through our voice to others, we can become reclusive, shy and retreating in nature. On the other side we can become loud and overly verbal that can cause us to become aggressive, overbearing and deceitful. All these problems can cloud our self expression. . . This can make us hide our true selves away from others.

ravenstar

P.S. Love to hear what Frank talks of these meridians and TCM!

 

[martin]

The line does no actually speaks of emitting words. It speaks of "words" and of them having an "order." Not all mantras have to be spoken; the only requisite is that they need to be repeated. That can be done without a single exhalation. Words exists before manifestation. That's why I mentioned above that, in some contextual interpretations, it refers to meditation and meditation techniques.

The subject of line 5 doesn't speak (jaws don't move) yet there are "words".
Thoughts?
If that is the case he is not silent inside. The mind thinks, albeit in an orderly way.

To me it sounds like this line is not about meditation, but more about contemplation.

Perhaps meditation can happen in the next line? The sage in line 6 goes beyond mind.
Makes sense. Although the text of line 6 doesn't clearly state it ..

Hmm, perhaps this hexagram is not about meditation at all? Lol.

 

[Sparhawk]

The subject of line 5 doesn't speak (jaws don't move) yet there are "words".
Thoughts?
If that is the case he is not silent inside. The mind thinks, albeit in an orderly way.

If Prem Rawat was close to you he would gently smack you on the head... "Mantras" can be thoughtless. They have another purpose. What's more, concentration on the repetition of mantras is supposed to free the mind from thoughts. One of their functions is to replace them. Mantras can be one word, as you know, or whole sentences. It is their "orderly" repetition that makes them work.

 

[martin]

If Prem Rawat was close to you he would gently smack you on the head... "Mantras" can be thoughtless. They have another purpose. What's more, concentration on the repetition of mantras is supposed to free the mind from thoughts. One of their functions is to replace them. Mantras can be one word, as you know, or whole sentences. It is their "orderly" repetition that makes them work.

Yes, it is of course possible that the king (line 5) is not really thinking but repeating mantras. I did that too before I met PR!
But was there a mantra practice or something similar in ancient China?

 

[Sparhawk]

Yes, it is of course possible that the king (line 5) is not really thinking but repeating mantras. I did that too before I met PR!
But was there a mantra practice or something similar in ancient China?

That's why I've said "within certain contexts" it can be interpreted as mantric meditation. I'm not saying "that is what IT IS." I'm always careful not to voice exclusionary opinions related to the Yijing, nor I have patience for those that do and say--and firmly believe--that this or that line means this or that. Context is everything.

As for mantras and ancient China, I must reply, "how could that not be the case?" Regardless of what religious historians believe, IMHO, the use of mantras started with shamanism, much earlier than the origin in Vedic tradition usually attributed to them.

 

[martin]

That's why I've said "within certain contexts" it can be interpreted as mantric meditation. I'm not saying "that is what IT IS." I'm always careful not to voice exclusionary opinions related to the Yijing, nor I have patience for those that do and say--and firmly believe--that this or that line means this or that. Context is everything.

Absolutely .. umm, wait, if context is everything I can't say that!
But I agree. I often find it nearly impossible to say what this or that line means in general until the line text meets a question ..
I don't like parallels with quantum mechanics (too much of that nowadays, imo). It's much like the collapse of the wave function, though.

As for mantras and ancient China, I must reply, "how could that not be the case?" Regardless of what religious historians believe, IMHO, the use of mantras started with shamanism, much earlier than the origin in Vedic tradition usually attributed to them.

The question is, I think, for which purpose certain words or formulas were used in pre-Vedic times. Mainly for ritualistic or magical purposes or (also or mainly) with the purpose of silencing the mind. Because that is what we are talking about now in the context of hexagram 52.
I don't know the answer ...

 

[Trojina]

Absolutely .. umm, wait, if context is everything I can't say that!
But I agree. I often find it nearly impossible to say what this or that line means in general until the line text meets a question ..
I don't like parallels with quantum mechanics (too much of that nowadays, imo). It's much like the collapse of the wave function, though.


...

oh well to bring it down to my level...well out of the realm of infinite possibilty into something more crystalised, I recall receiving it on asking why someone has been so curt with me, well not exactly curt, very brief, more brief than normal, i wasn't sure if it was of any significance, it was a bit odd. Anyhow on drawing 52.5 I assumed all was okay they were just being sparing of words. Turned out all was okay. You see it can be that dull .......more generally I just found its meant words have gone well, created harmony, feared conversations turn out okay which actually returns us to Marias saying about 'dipping the tongue in the brain before speaking'

now back to collapsing waves.....

 

[meng]

For me, the wave/particle idea is just that: an idea. That idea matches 40 years of observation of how Yi appears to work. But of course it isn't Yi, per se, but the whateveritis which operates through Yi. More importantly, it appears to be nothing new. I guess it's that ancient knowledge in 26 which comes to the present. The ancients had ancients, which we know nothing about.

 

[rodaki]

Hokusai


:bows:
rodaki

 

[meng]

Mountain of waves?

 

[meng]

in Rosada's absence..

52.6

Noble-hearted keeping still.
Good fortune.

This marks the consummation of the effort to attain tranquility. One is at rest, not merely in a small, circumscribed way in regard to matters of detail, but one has also a general resignation in regard to life as a whole, and this confers peace and good fortune in relation to every individual matter.

 

[maremaria]

parenthesis

(What Martin said about the question meets a line, and Meng “But of course it isn't Yi, per se, but the whateveritis which operates through Yi” make me ask the question “ Yi, how you do that ?”

I open a new thread, so I won’t disturb the peace of this thread , sinse we are in line 52.6

Maria )

 

[ravenstar]

52.6

Noble-hearted keeping still.
Good fortune.

This marks the consummation of the effort to attain tranquility. One is at rest, not merely in a small, circumscribed way in regard to matters of detail, but one has also a general resignation in regard to life as a whole, and this confers peace and good fortune in relation to every individual matter.

This is the best I know to describe 52.6. Although titled faith and modesty in my file, there is also a sense of confidence, of self-acceptance.......we see through surface appearances to their more underlying meaning and to the consequences of what is happening in our lives right now. We sense a flow to life, a sense of purpose....we see things in a different light.....that every happened in our life for a reason. We know on an inner level why relationships ended and people passed on.....to begin their next stage of growth. We are compassionate and caring for others who have or are going through the same thing.

Being aware of what's happening in our immediate environment and globally, we stay focused, planting our seeds where we want them to take root and grow.

ravenstar

 

[charly]

The line does no actually speaks of emitting words. It speaks of "words" and of them having an "order." Not all mantras have to be spoken; the only requisite is that they need to be repeated. That can be done without a single exhalation. Words exists before manifestation. That's why I mentioned above that, in some contextual interpretations, it refers to meditation and meditation techniques.

Luis:

I understand that there is a possibility that the line advices «stop chatting, let your inner discourse have its order», something related with meditation, you ´re right.

But stillness is not the only way GEN can be translated. I believe that GEN can also promote ACTION, mainly religious action say WORSHIP, or maybe more general, HONOR, because the MAN of GEN is leaning in reverence, hanging from or also holding a BIG EYE, divinity, more precisely MOUNTAIN DIVINITY.

What if the line advices to a shaman or oracle prospect:

«just move the jaws, speak no thinking about it , words will have order for a God is speaking through you, will not regret it too much time»

gen qi fu: move that jaws
yan you xu: words have order
hui wang: regret vanishes​

Fu, meaning JAW is a curious character that has no bone in itself: CART or CHARIOT at the left and something line a grenade or like a PLANT over LAND at the right. Something to do with carts or with agriculture, maybe something to do with ancient gods, foreingn gods or peasant gods.

And FU also means HELP, to provide assistance, say PROVIDENCE, the OLD DIVINE PROVIDENCE, and this has something to do with GEN, the BIG EYE.
`

gen qi fu: HONOR ITS PROVIDENCE
yan you xu: words have order
hui wang: regret vanishes​

Of course, the providence of Mountain Gods. And mountain divinities used to be female, like the Snake.

What do you think about these possibilities?

Un abrazo ,

Charly

 

[Sparhawk]

For me, the wave/particle idea is just that: an idea. That idea matches 40 years of observation of how Yi appears to work. But of course it isn't Yi, per se, but the whateveritis which operates through Yi. More importantly, it appears to be nothing new. I guess it's that ancient knowledge in 26 which comes to the present. The ancients had ancients, which we know nothing about.

That's priceless!!