54.5 - different line text clearer meaning

[seethis]

I just read in Michael Nylan's "The Five Confucian Classics" (2001:212):
"Line 5 of Hexagram 54. “The Marrying Maid,” which reads, “Emperor Yi gave his younger girl in marriage. The groom’s sleeves: not as fine as the girl’s…. A moon or more to see the auspicious.” Emperor the second to-last ruler of Shang (tradit. R. 1191-1155 BC), married his daughter to King Wen of Zhou in hopes of cementing his alliance with that powerful border vassal. The groom dutifully acknowledged his subordinate status by his less sumptuous outfit, but his ritual submission meant little once Emperor Yi’s daughter had given birth to King Wu. For that even began the process by which the political Mandate would be transferred from Shang to Zhou within a generation, foiling the best laid plans of Emperor Yi. And so the Line Text relays the rather obvious truth that what is good for the goose may be bad for the gander."

It is the first time I realise that it was not "the embroidered garments of the princess [which] were not as gorgeous as those of the servingsmaid", as stated in Wilhelm's translation, but "the grooms sleeves [were] not as fine as the girl's] - although the girl is actually one and the same Shang princess. I wonder how many reverse gender transformations, or other post-Shang/Zhou changes are in the changes while we sweat over meaningful modern interpretations?

 

[pocossin]

Beware Michael Nylan's feminist humor. Just like her to put the groom in second place. Her "The Elemental Changes" is full of such inversions, but it's also the best translation around. Maybe Bradford and Harmen will comment.

 

[charly]

I just read in Michael Nylan's "The Five Confucian Classics" (2001:212):
"Line 5 of Hexagram 54. “The Marrying Maid,” which reads, “Emperor Yi gave his younger girl in marriage. The groom’s sleeves: not as fine as the girl’s…. A moon or more to see the auspicious.” Emperor the second to-last ruler of Shang (tradit. R. 1191-1155 BC), married his daughter to King Wen of Zhou in hopes of cementing his alliance with that powerful border vassal. The groom dutifully acknowledged his subordinate status by his less sumptuous outfit, but his ritual submission meant little once Emperor Yi’s daughter had given birth to King Wu. For that even began the process by which the political Mandate would be transferred from Shang to Zhou within a generation, foiling the best laid plans of Emperor Yi. And so the Line Text relays the rather obvious truth that what is good for the goose may be bad for the gander."


It is the first time I realise that it was not "the embroidered garments of the princess [which] were not as gorgeous as those of the servingsmaid", as stated in Wilhelm's translation, but "the grooms sleeves [were] not as fine as the girl's] - although the girl is actually one and the same Shang princess. I wonder how many reverse gender transformations, or other post-Shang/Zhou changes are in the changes while we sweat over meaningful modern interpretations?

SeeThis:

Have you read the page of Steve Marshall?

... Unhappily, Shaughnessy bases his major interpretive ploy on a sand castle built in the 1920s by the Chinese contextual critic Gu Jiegang. In doing so, he helps perpetuate a twentieth-century myth about the Zhou dynasty that is at least as pernicious as the traditional myths that Gu and his fellow iconoclasts attempted to destroy.

Gu himself was cautious when he tossed off his suggestion, but Shaughnessy has intercepted it and carried it to the one-yard line. As Shaughnessy notes in the first essay in this book, 'Marriage, Divorce and Revolution: Reading between the Lines of the Book of Changes,' Gu described his Zhouyi and Shijing interpretation as little more than a 'guess' (p 16). That is an accurate description, though I would be more inclined to describe it as a fantasy. But in Shaughnessy's hands the 'guess' becomes both an 'insight' (p 21) and, in the introductory preview, historical fact (p 6) ...

http://www.biroco.com/yijing/shaughnessy.htm

54.5:

The sovereign I gave his daughter in marriage.
The embroidered garments of the princess
Were not as gorgeous
As those of the serving maid.
The moon that is nearly full
Brings good fortune.
​

Wilhelm / Baynes:

The chinese text and W/B (in uppercase):

帝 di4: emperor / THE SOVEREIGN
乙 yi3: "B" class / 2nd heavenly stem / 2nd in order / I (say the name)
歸 gui1: to go back / to return // to marry (a woman) / GAVE IN MARRIAGE
妹 mei4: younger sister / [HIS] DAUGHTER

其 qi2: his / her / its / theirs / that / such / it
君 jun1: monarch / lord / gentleman / ruler / [THE] PRINCESS
之 zhi1: ...'s / him / her / it / OF
袂 mei4: sleeve of a robe / [THE EMBROIDERED] GARNMENTS

不 bu4: un... / not / no / [WERE] NOT
如 ru2: as (if) / such as / AS
其 qi2: his / her / its / theirs / that / such / it
娣 di4: wife of a younger brother / SERVING MAID
之 zhi1: ...'s / him / her / it / OF THE
袂 mei4: sleeve of a robe / THOSE
良 liang2: good / very / very much / GORGEOUS

月 yue4: moon / month / [THE] MOON
幾 ji1: small table / few // almost / [THAT IS] NEARLY
望 wang4: hope / expect / to visit // full moon / FULL
吉 ji2 / lucky / [BRINGS] GOOD FORTUNE

As you can see the historical background of the line is uncertain as it is the genre of the 君JUN, mainly used for male nobles o rulers, the status of the girl, if she is marrying the sovereign or is given in marriage by him.

But I believe to perceive a little air of joke, a second class high ruler or semigod, a younger sister that could mean the loved girl (remember ancient egyptian love poetry), the word for sleve is pronounced the same that the girl, what is the meaning of the sleeve? generosity? sexuality?

Does the moon almost full mean an almost perceptible pregnancy? Are maybe MEI and DI the same girl? Is maybe the RULER not so generous like HER? Whats the connection with the rest os the lines?

Yours,

Charly

 

[charly]

Beware Michael Nylan's feminist humor. Just like her to put the groom in second place. Her "The Elemental Changes" is full of such inversions, but it's also the best translation around. Maybe Bradford and Harmen will comment.

Pocossisn:

Of course, who makes a happy omen of a marriage is the BRIDE, maybe in all the world. An the line ends LUCKY.

And in the following line, the GIRL has her BASKET empty because the BOY failed in sacrificing his LAMB, the boy got no blood.

People enjoys seeing the girl, who goes to enjoy seeing the groom?

Pure folk-lore.

Yours,

Charly

________________
(1) Shaughnessy pointed that BASKET could mean WONB. Like in anciente Greece, the girls were basket-bearers, the poet already said:

¡Que púberes canéforas te ofrenden el acanto,
que sobre tu sepulcro no se derrame el llanto,
sino rocío, vino, miel:
que el pámpano allí brote, las flores de Citeres,
y que se escuchen vagos suspiros de mujeres
bajo un simbólico laurel!​

Rubén Darío

 

[seethis]

Interestingly, Nylan (2001) writes in the next paragraph on page 212:
"Fairly often the language of the Line Texts resist interpretations. It is only now, as excavated materials make for steady advances in the study of archaic Chinese language, that the archaic meaning begins to be discerned in some puzzling cases. For instance, the top line, Line 6, Hexagram 54. “The Marrying Maid,” opens with the statement, “The woman holds the basket, but no fruits are in it.” On the surface, the Line Text describes a botched betrothal ceremony in which the proper presents have not been exchanged, an interpretation that fits a parallel image following it in the Line Text: the failure by a man, presumably the groom, to draw blood from the sacrificial sheep, as required by the ritual. But a woman holding a basket also conjures up notions of fertility, for “bloody basket” is the name given a woman’s pelvic region. The phase “no fruits” then predicts future infertility. The couple cannot pass the ancestors’ charisma down through the generations, the ritual faults mentioned in the text being either the symptom or the root cause of the disorder."

 

[seethis]

Regarding line 54.5
I can't judge on the transcription issues but it appears to me that it continues to remain uncertain what the exact historical context of the line is. However, Nylan's interpretation that it was the groom was subordinate to the bride but that this later turned out to be a plessing depicts that intermarriage between Shang and Zhou nobility was possibly common at the time anyway, regardless of whether the excact historical circumstances were as depicted in Nylan's transcription (I sent her an email and asked her about this). In this, more general sense, subordination turns auspicious at the ruler's line (which is in this case 5) because the princess gave birth to a successor. Whether the alledged Shang princess (not in the literal sense but as a representation of the practice of intermarriage between Shang and Zhou) was infertile and was replaced by her younger sister (or what ever that stands for) is in a way secondary to the acutal meaning. This way submission leads to change (bride or groom), but only in the place of the ruler.

 

[charly]

Interestingly, Nylan (2001) writes in the next paragraph on page 212:... “bloody basket” is the name given a woman’s pelvic region. The phase “no fruits” then predicts future infertility...

Hi, SeeThis:

Good to read it,but I would say "tells actual infertility" ancient people used to give practical examinations before the theoretical ones.

Present in the folk tales of much countries.

Milchael Nylan's is a very good translation but also interpretative, no EMPEROR, no GIRL, no GROOM in the chinese text.

I believe that DI didn't acquire the sense of emperor, supreme ruler until the First Ching Emperor, "chest of hawk and heart of deer" (I don't remember with accuracy).

MEI is not whoever GIRL, it might be an affectionate manner of addresing a girl, it designates a YOUNGER SISTER (or cousin), with immediate associations with the trigram LAKE / JOY, I believe in this case not the sister o daughter of the ruler but the YOUNGER SISTER OR COUSIN OF THE RULER'S MAIN WIFE.

Yours,


Charly

 

[bradford]

I think maybe this Nylan is a complete idiot, at least judging from two out of two examples. Must have come through the modern academic mill.
She's botching two of the clearest texts in the whole book.

 

[Sparhawk]

I think maybe this Nylan guy is a complete idiot, at least judging from two out of two examples. Must have come through the modern academic mill.
He's botching two of the clearest texts in the whole book.

LOL Brad, you know better than calling Nylan a "guy"...

 

[pocossin]

I think maybe this Nylan guy is a complete idiot, at least judging from two out of two examples. Must have come through the modern academic mill.
He's botching two of the clearest texts in the whole book.

You're right about academic mill but not gender.

http://ls.berkeley.edu/new/01/socsci_fac.html

Possibly she was named "Michelle" but enjoys gender confusion, as I warned above.

 

[bradford]

LOL Brad, you know better than calling Nylan a "guy"...

Fixed. Is idiotess a word?
Why can't these scholars get their eyes more than an inch off the page?
These are such classic marriage ceremony archetypes, and still common today.
Of course the norm is to put the bridesmaids in the ugliest thing available to set the bride apart, so a truly humble bride would still be just as exceptional.
And of course you can rent the fake offering basket, gold-plated dagger and the pre-slaughtered lamb right there at the chapel door in Vegas.

 

[seethis]

Well, I agree, after reading also Shaughnessy (1992) it is not a groom but about a primary and secondary bride - though still about historical intricasies casted of rise and fall in poetic compositions. Line 54.5 is presumably the daugher/sister of king Yi of Shang who couldn't give birth to a heir after her marriage with King Wen of Zhou and a concubine (secondary bride) stepped in to fulfil this requirement. On the other hand, in line 11.5 the marriage relationships between Shang and Zhou where still auspicious, though much less auspicious in 11.6 where the "city walls fall into the moats". Interestingly #53, another dipiction of a failing marriage in which the wild goose flies higher and higher and only finds union on the spirtual rather than reproductive level. That Nylan reversed the gender of line 54.5 is indeed intersting although generally speaking, it still depicts political spere of patrilineal supremecy, the child is born by the woman bought owned by the man. In this case the infertility of the Shang princess becomes obvious in line 54.6 - the relationship is rendered useless for the political reproduction of heirs.

 

[rodaki]

hi Seethis and thanks for the interesting thread!


by now I'm not so sure if you 're focusing on the meaning or the historical/cultural connotations of the line, but in terms of trigrams 5th line is where for yin/yang the hexagram turns into a yin/yin structure.
There's also another way I've understood this line -although I'm nothing like an authority around here- there is a painting that talks 54.5 to me. This was painted by Frida Kahlo and expresses her uneasiness with a part of her life which had her travelling in the US and Europe and promoting her work when her heart was truly to her life back in Mexico. So she experienced a struggle between those two parts of her: one clad in the fancy european dress but with a half (broken?) heart, the other poorly dressed but with a full heart; in her own way she tried to marry those two in her painting (called "Two Fridas")

so maybe the wedding is about marrying one's inner joyful yin (eg her paintings) to a yin capacity to go out there and meet the world with its demands (eg promoting her work).

Or (allow me just to tease a bit the male perspective on the line) who knows, maybe that bride had her heart set on the poor simple guy although she had to marry the rich powerful prince/whatever -and who really knows whose was the offspring??

 

[sooo]

Or (allow me just to tease a bit the male perspective on the line) who knows, maybe that bride had her heart set on the poor simple guy although she had to marry the rich powerful prince/whatever -and who really knows whose was the offspring??

Beautiful rendering of 54.5.

Have to smile approvingly at your tease. I've told my ex on more than one past occasion, "you should have married a plumber." She married neither a rich nor powerful prince, nor a plumber, but both her father and our eldest son were/are plumbers. Like 18.1, even if the father ain't right, a son will be. Her heritage has been sanctified and redeemed through the son. Life works in marvelous ways.

 

[charly]

LOL Brad, you know better than calling Nylan a "guy"...

Hi, Luis:

I don't know if M.Nylan belongs to the cream of feminism. I believe she here follows the way of Margaret Pearson, that presented her points o view on H.54 here at Clarity and in the Needham Institute.

About GOOSEGANDER (2), I prefer GOOD FOR THE GOOSE, GOOD FOR THE GANDER (1)
if not good for the goose, it cannot be good for the gander, which is, I believe, dthe general advice of H.54:

gui mei zheng xiong
MARRYING [A] GIRL, TO ATTACK [HER IS] HORRIBLE.
In marrying, don't hurt the girl.

wu you li
NO FAR PROFITABLE
Not profitable for long time, not for going too far.
​

Say:
Nothing without consent, anything with it.


Abrazo,

Charly


____________________
(1) You know what the gander symbolize.

(2) Goosegander by Preston Blair, from http://cartooncritique.blogspot.com/2009/01/cool-drawing-from-seth-and-more-preston.html

 

[rodaki]

Beautiful rendering of 54.5.

Have to smile approvingly at your tease. I've told my ex on more than one past occasion, "you should have married a plumber." She married neither a rich nor powerful prince, nor a plumber, but both her father and our eldest son were/are plumbers. Like 18.1, even if the father ain't right, a son will be. Her heritage has been sanctified and redeemed through the son. Life works in marvelous ways.

thank you, it is a beautiful painting that speaks of 54 in more ways than one . .

I don't understand the 18.1 comment that well -sounds like you're saying we need to get back and repeat our ancestry, I thought it's better to undo it; what if the parents didn't get it right, they were also the children of their parents who did the best they could - then again I always prefer to see myself as the child in 18, it makes it easier to get over. It's interesting though, cause I think 54 is about a broken line of a sort, like the blood line that's cut in the white dressed Frida -maybe a line of ancestry, or of inner nourishment or safety, or satisfaction, thunder's broken spoon of a sort- in any case it's what creates the lop-sidedness of 54, like a defect in an inner feedback loop, and then there come the fancy accessories and paraphernalia to make up or just sustain what's lacking -at least that's what I keep finding looking in my own 54s. Or there are ways to expend the fanciness and get back to the simple stuff, like Melody Gardot -my idea of 54 these days. Crushed by a jeep at 19, broken pelvis, spinal injuries and damaged neural pathways and somehow she came on top of it all. At 25 she walks with a cane and has to wear dark glasses (talk about lame and half-sighted!!) but heck can she make a good simple song!!

Anyway, I'm getting ahead of myself and don't want to hijack the thread with my ideas on 54 -they deserve their own place, unless they fall in the cracks of some final line


p.s.: I hope I haven't offended anyone supporting the 'male perspective' with my little joke -thinking of Frida and how she had to 'marry' into things that didn't appeal to her, and then some Chinese princess in an elaborate ceremony . . well, it didn't take much to make the connection :mmf:

 

[seethis]

Well, I guess it is not at all about male or female but about subordination and, a bit like female is to male as male is to the devine. Male ritual control over reproduction renders the sacrifice of the two maiden in line 54.5 devine. Because the first one is barren, the second one has to stand in as royal birth machine while the first one bends in noble devotion to the devine male order of the day - like the moon which is not full. This brings allegedly good fortune since the moon (female) is devoted to the sun (male) by not standing directly opposite. However, the devotional moon moves on quickly anyway when passing by the powerful royal son of the new rising empire of the Zhou to which a royal son is being born, a successor, King Wu. However, when the authors of this line composed it they were already looking back on what had happened a long time ago. So they knew, nothing lasts for ever, don't get upset, don't worry if you get something by default, accept it with grace! This modern conclusion of line 54.5 is from the The Complete Idiot's Guide to the I Ching.

 

[bradford]

You are really overthinking this.

 

[charly]

Well, I guess it is not at all about male or female but about subordination ... nothing lasts for ever, don't get upset, don't worry if you get something by default, accept it with grace! This modern conclusion of line 54.5 is from the The Complete Idiot's Guide to the I Ching.

Hi SeeThis:

Why don't try to get a new perspective. The question is obscured for centuries of traditional and conservative sexism, male supremacy and other dirty and wrong prejudices.

To see a bride is a good omen in much cultures, people worries about sex and love from the begining of the history. Women, although oppressed, were admired and loved since ever.

Why, if not, all these kings from early times had so many wifes, concubines, servants and female slaves? Only for the mortification of being suroounded by inferior beings?

What Michael Nylan is saying with her discourse on H.54 is that the key for true understanding might reside in the language of bedchamber arts. People buried with copies of the Changes and the Dao De Jing also had medicine and sexuality handbooks near the coffin.

LOVE AND SEX IS STRONGER THAN DEATH.

Believe it or not.

The Changes was neither a book of history nor a book of stories, it spoke of an hidden wiseness not of current politics or sociology. People knew how was the world, out of reflecting it, the Changes must have had a value added to the dominant ideology. Some recipes for the art of living.

Yours,


Charly

 

[seethis]

I agree with almost everything you say Charly, except, I can't see any hidden wiseness in the Yijing but only hexagrams which create the impression of changing world as a complete model. This in turn feeds into our delutions of wishful thinking and the Yijing has the ablity to bring us back to the fact that nothing lasts for ever. This why it is inherently rather pessimistic regardless whether it speaks of empires or marriages. Divination is only an old trick to make us believe that someone else knows something we are so keen find out. With regard to Nylan: She simply doesn't want to admit that she didn't check her sources properly. I am still puzzled by the possible universal meaning of line 54.5 - for the time being I hold on to the "not to be ashamed when getting something by default" (a bit like a win in the lottery, I guess) interpretation since I don't believe in esoterism.

 

[charly]

I agree with almost everything you say Charly, except, I can't see any hidden wiseness in the Yijing but only hexagrams which create the impression of changing world as a complete model. This in turn feeds into our delutions of wishful thinking and the Yijing has the ablity to bring us back to the fact that nothing lasts for ever. This why it is inherently rather pessimistic regardless whether it speaks of empires or marriages. Divination is only an old trick to make us believe that someone else knows something we are so keen find out. With regard to Nylan: She simply doesn't want to admit that she didn't check her sources properly. I am still puzzled by the possible universal meaning of line 54.5 - for the time being I hold on to the "not to be ashamed when getting something by default" (a bit like a win in the lottery, I guess) interpretation since I don't believe in esoterism.

Hi, SeeThis:
Sometimes the same passed to me that I see little wiseness,But I believe that it is because the heavy strata of interpretation. If we say HIDDEN MESSAGE or HIDDEN KNOWLEDGE? I believe that the Changes was written by diviners or by people close to them for the use of another diviners maybe from the posterity. Diviners shared interests with the high nobility but their interests were not the same of the rulers. The Changes has remnants of history, but it was not a book of history. It was not a book of tales, moral or philosophy. It was an auxiliary handbook for the esotheric technic of divination. Almost necessarily it ought to have its own laguage obscure for non diviners or non iniciated as all technic languaje. And it had to tell things that were not told by other books.

But going to Michael Nylan, why do you say she has not checked her sources properly? Was necessary a book of divination for saying be content with your share of cake? It was necessary for telling women they ought to be chaste, not trying to be more than men?

I believe that the message is another and in some sense, hidden.

Yours,

Charly

 

[seethis]

Charly, I actually had email contact with Nylan over her "groom" translation and she said she "checked this several times" and when I asked her where, she said she was a busy scholar and this was all she could say. Considering that I have never come across any translation as "groom", except her's, I conclude that she hasn't checked it. However, I do understand her inversion from "bride" to "groom" because the "groom" is the the less powerful groom is underlying meaning why this line is considered auspicious. Well, this is the most likely historical context. As we your believe that the Yijing was written by deviners and that there is an esoteric element in it because of this - I don't share this view. As far as I can gather, the early Chinese writing has most likely developed out of Oraclebone and tortoise divination but from the about 4000 images from this early period (some of it still during the Shang period) only about 1000 have been translated. Later developments from Bronzes of which apparently all have been decyphered, and than into the various system of Chinese writing from early Chinese to Classical Chinese, I doubt that we can really know what the original Yijing symbols from the Oracle bones mean. Not because it is esoteric but because it has not yet been decyphered. However, my understanding is that the texts of the lines we relate to today are from the later Zhou period, when the Zhou empire was already deteriorating. I think that we don't know whether the authors of those lines passed on to us (including Confuicus with his ten wings and who was apparently quite obsessed with canonising the past from a perpective of his moral philosopy) actually understood themselves the original symbols from the oracle bones. I assume they didn't because it would be presumably mentioned somewhere and would have helped to decypher them. Your opinion that the text of the Yijing of today is made by deviners is an assumption. It is possibly born out of a need to reenchant our own highly secularised world. There is no historical proof in my opinion which confirms your view. This means that, I think, what you say is a belief and not a historical fact. This is what I meant when I said that I am not into esoterism.

As to the overall narrative of the Yijing we look at today (mainly English and German translations) I do understand that it possibly has a pyschoanalytica dimension but that the layers of cultural glatter is extremely difficult to transcent. I also feel that it is very much a book advising man rather then woman, for obvious reasons of the socio-political organisation of the time it was presumably composed. This makes certain hexagrams more intersting and puzzling than others. Yes, their is a universal message in all of that and the psychic unity of mankind shines certainly through to our days. This makes it intriguing and appealing, especially considering how old it is. This is in itself quite reassuring, but not esoteric at all but open and real.

 

[Sparhawk]

Not sure where you are getting at. Trying to decide if your participation stems from a wish to learn about the Yijing or from a debunking angle. The good thing is that the Yijing can be approached as a divination tool (feel free to debunk but the site is geared towards people that like to divine and that'll generate some friction) or as an ancient artifact worthy of archaeological/anthropological/historical studies. So, leaving out the divination utility of the classic, perhaps we can discuss provenance and origins. Please share with us what you've read about that. And am not talking about any of the "translations" out there, which, with the exception of a couple of them, they are all geared to satisfy diviners and not historians.

 

[charly]

... she experienced a struggle between those two parts of her: one clad in the fancy european dress but with a half (broken?) heart, the other poorly dressed but with a full heart; in her own way she tried to marry those two in her painting (called "Two Fridas")

so maybe the wedding is about marrying one's inner joyful yin (eg her paintings) to a yin capacity to go out there and meet the world with its demands (eg promoting her work).

Or (allow me just to tease a bit the male perspective on the line) who knows, maybe that bride had her heart set on the poor simple guy although she had to marry the rich powerful prince/whatever -and who really knows whose was the offspring??

Dear Dora:

Glad to see you in the forum.:bows:

I also believe that there is only ONE GIRL. Like any woman she has multiple roles:

... HOSTESS, social and political representation, diplomacy.
... HOUSEHOLDER, inner laborer, cleaning the house, making food, managing the economy, serving an caring the family.
... MOTHER, producing offsprings, advicing the sons when tall, whispering at the ears against younger women.
... HEALER, warranty of family health , helping to born, taking off arrows from the back.
... COMPANION, not only of men but also of women. If not who will take care of the girls? Sisters and cousins shared childhood games, dreams and experiences. Even, sometimes, they married together with the same man (Zhou rulers used so).

There are too many other roles.

There are among it two stereotypes, or archetypes if you like Jung, called THE WIFE and THE PROSTITUTE, each supposedly with its own universe:
... The WIFE: work, children, virtue and chastity.
... The PROSTITUTE: joy, pleasure, love, adventure and doing her own way.

Of course, stereotypes don’t resist reality , most of the roles are confilictive if not contradictory. There are not such wives and protitutes in the real world (not like they are depicted), only images.

True women have multiple roles in different degree of individual variation. Each woman is at the same time all the women.

In H.54 WIFE and CONCUBINE (1) are maybe the same GIRL, main wife and secondary, married woman and free lover.

H.54 is, I believe, about the EXALTATION of a CONCUBINE, or SECOND RANK WIFE at the HIGHER RANK, the first Lady of the kingdom, a QUEEN.

This is the reason why people enjoy, it is a folk topic, the LOVED GIRL becomes a QUEEN. All for good and for the general welfare. No matters the groom, matters the bride, although with some guys there is no bride that can endure.

I like Frida, PASSION (one heart), AWARENESS (half a hearth).


All the best,

Charly

P.D.
Something similar passes with men although less interesting. In a monarchy the King is a fixed figure until he deads or until is removed (generally also ends dying). The QUEENS instead, can vary, there is the possibility that after a uggly witch can follow a pretty girl, wich for people becomes the image of HOPE. Then when the pretty girl arrives, people enjoy: GOOD OMEN.

Women are also warranty of ethics and morality, queens must be good while kings are allowed to be libertines.

Another: no matters the identity of the father, matters the peace between families, women can be repudiated, men, more if they are kings, not. It's enough for the heirs to be born in the house whose master is the husband or the King. Historical queens and concubines had sometimes access with another men than husbands without serious trouble for dynasties.

Ch.


_____________________________
(1) No idea of CONCUBINE in chinese, the character 娣di4, translated as concubine denotes a wife of a younger brother of the wife's husband, a sister-in-law, that, if living in the same house, has a secondary rank after the householder.

concubine : c.1300, from L. concubina (fem.), from concumbere "to lie with, to lie together, to cohabit," from com- "with" (see com-) + cubare "to lie down." Recognized by law among polygamous peoples as "a secondary wife."
From: www.etymonline.com

 

[charly]

... Please share with us what you've read about that. And am not talking about any of the "translations" out there, which, with the exception of a couple of them, they are all geared to satisfy diviners and not historians.

Luis:

From Frank Marganne's YiKingDay:

​

The Ideogram of Ancient China:

Wrong in some aspects, but interesting

On the left a young woman takes a step and crossed the city wall or solid fence for a home. She goes out and goes to town, or it enters to a house or home.
At right, a person in home with a whisk, an attribute of the housewife, and a family tree, symbol of progeny.
First meaning: a young girl leaves her house, she became a woman in a home for the practical purpose of holding the internal (domestic) and provide a seed (tree).
...

Corresponding Hexagram:

Lightning overcoming the stagnant water.
The rain and thunder woke the still waters of Lake will they create a kind of storm.
For Chinese, it is a strong allegory describing first sexual union, known precisely in Chinese "games of the storm and rain" between an adult man and a woman younger than himself...

The origin of these entanglements seems to be:

the first Western scholars who have permission to access the library's Imperial Palace in Beijing were the Jesuits ... Other foreign ie Portuguese or the Netherlands were considered bandits or even pirates. The translation of the Yi-King's passionate but when the Jesuits translated texts and comments of hexagram 54, the Chinese title means "Presentation of the concubine in the family home by the householder." has necessarily disturbed and left speechless ... Thus, they would not really do the exegesis of this parable does not seem very Catholic in their eyes and completely contrary to their beliefs about the proper order in civil society. For a Jesuit existence of a concubine, the third person of the couple, as can happen by chance, but formalize the in the public square is far from being allowed.


I advise people who are considering a translation of the Yi-King

... An intelligent translation of the Oracle 54 should take account of comments and ideas I have outlined, if you have doubts about the originality and vision of the work of the translator interpreter, he simply copied a portion of origin of the translation made by the Jesuits of the 19th century without the effort of understanding and interpreting it properly because it deserves to be évidemment.ur the public is far from being enabled...

[Translated from the french by Google]

From:

Francis Marganne: Yi King Day
ASTROLOGIE DU TROISIÈME MILLÉNAIRE
CALENDRIER INSOLITE
at: http://mapage.noos.fr/tonton7/gemeaux.html

The character analysis is strange for to say the less.

He writes the characters for GUI MEI (1) in vertical script, normal for a chinese, and then he interprets the left component of the lower character in relation with the left of the upper one. Then he follows with the components to the right.

The problem is that, in the drawing, the components of different characters intermingle. And there is no explication of this feature.

Wrong in some aspects but interesting. Too french, I believe.

Abrazo,

Charly

____________________________
(1)
歸 gui1: to go back / to return // to marry (speaking of a woman)
妹 mei4: younger sister /

the composition of GUI is
...at the left TO CHASE / TO PURSUE, depicting a FOOT, a CROSSROAD and a strange shape like a BRAS

... at the right a BROOM but maybe anciently a LADY or a FEMALE SHAMAN with a hat of feathers.

Say: CATCH THE WITCH, or MARRIAGE ( or LOVE) = TO GET BEWITHCHED.​

Beware: little sources I've checked.

Ch.

 

[charly]

Hi, SeeThis:
I'm writing something for you, please, wait.
Yours,

Ch.

 

[seethis]

Dear Sparhawk, I am certainly not a debunker (I had to look up the word since my mother tongue is not English) but I have a critical mind which doesn't stop working in front of at the gates of heaven, so to speak. I haven't read that much historical stuff on the Yijing and I am new in trying to explore the historical side of it. By doing so I stumple along with bits and pieces of information but stay critical in principle. I find it enlightening to get some historical perspective into my Yijing studies but I don't aim to be a specialist and I am painfully aware of my limitations because I don't understand ideograms, meaning that Chinese writing as system of symbols and form of literature is so alien to my European mind and it makes me aware how powerful culture is. At the same time I am using the Yijing and am surprised of its actuality - if I manage to ask the right questions. I am fasninated by this contradiction, so, rest reassured, I am not trying to put other peoples views down.

Charly, as I said, I find it difficult to concentrate on the level of ideograms and I admit that I don't really want to go there since it appears to be a mine field. I found interesting what you said about the Jesuits. It seems that the more I find out about hexgram 54 the more I get confused and the more uncertain I get what it might have meant originally. I don't even know anymore what "originally" exists here since there are so many layers due to the age of the Yijing. Nevertheless, it is useful to learn more and more about the historical depth of the Changes.

I was very puzzled by Dora's painting, the two sisters with the connected heards. I just couldn't comprehend what could possibly mean. I do understand that I have problems with anything "ideagraphic", whether paintings or chinese characters - the picture of an idea, something depicted in one image which is at the same time so very complex and allows for so many interpretations. I am interested to transcend all of that but it is a bit like sailing in a big ocean and the only navigatory tool I have is the intrisically deceptive nature of my mind. It suits me as a cultural Westerner to try to remain critical in the context of the floods of information coming from the Yijing.

The other day I got interested in finding out on any feminist approaches to the Yijing but only came across two of which Pearson seemed to be the one with a scholarly approach but I couldn't find any article written by her when searching google scholar. I onldy found the interview with her on this side. I am surprised that feminist scholars (selfmade or trained - believers and non-believers) haven't yet done more substantial really critical work. Such work can also be experimental, but not just by replacling "great man" with "great woman" as someone did. I find hexagram 54, and also 44 but possibly also others particularly puzzling in this sense. Why not arranging a third heavenly arrangements of the hexagram, one which surpasses the later heaven of Kind Wen. Don't stop at the gates of heaven!!!

 

[sooo]

the picture of an idea, something depicted in one image which is at the same time so very complex and allows for so many interpretations. I am interested to transcend all of that but it is a bit like sailing in a big ocean and the only navigatory tool I have is the intrisically deceptive nature of my mind. It suits me as a cultural Westerner to try to remain critical in the context of the floods of information coming from the Yijing.

I relate a lot to things you've said, here and on other threads. But there seems to be a noticeable difference here, in that I relate to Yi easily through visual images. I've composed 64 of them just for the fun of it. I could as easily compose another 64, and another. I could compose the lines as well, if I thought it meant anything significant. (I'm fatalistic toward my own work as being meaningful.) With so many versions flying around, I'm good with 3 or 4; and opinions, such as discussed on this forum, couldn't be more diverse. All together you get every interpretation under the sun, flying around, whizzing by, sometimes crashing into one another.

Bradford's pointed out that, theoretically at least, each hexagram represents 1/64 of everything there is, which is a way huge piece of pizza.

Chris Lofting used the word "exaggerate" a lot, when referring to the breadth and intensity (dramatic effect) of each hexagram. The images must be exaggerated in order to have enough categorical room to find your specific meaning and/or answer.

I am interested to transcend all of that but it is a bit like sailing in a big ocean

I think of it as surfing the Dao.

 

[seethis]

Thanks sooo. Quite reassuring what you said. I see what you say with the Dao being like the big ocean. You compose your own images and you could easily compose more. I wouldn't do anything like this unless I felt I wanted to create a third heaven, seriously! But I would not make this a priority in my life since I have other priorities, things I know more about, and my "third heaven" is there and not where the Yijing is.
I see the Yi as a friend, someone who is entirely objective and throws everything back at me. If I don't understand what it is telling me, I would be extremely careful to accept other peoples explanations since they can never be objective like the Yijing is. Their interpretations always offers a level of their own subconsiousness (I guess this is what I see as what you call the Dao) - not that this is a bad thing, but it might contribute to my already existing confusion and self-deception over something I try understand about my own inner processes.

I use four books, the origianl Richard Wilhelm (because my mother tongue is German). Gregory Whincup's "Rediscovering the I Ching" (because it tries to go to the "original" hexagrams and lines only). The Complete Idiot's Guide to the I Ching (because it gives a historical perspective and sometimes unusual and more contemporary psychological angle). Cleary's "The Taoist I Ching" (because it is helps to focus back on ones own inner state rather than speculating over that of other people's).

I also use online Yijings, one German one which give interesting interpretations as to the meaning of the underlying ideograms. The Yinjing.nl because I find it intelligent and thoughtful (it gives an additional angle on modern socio-psychological interpretations of the meaning of lines which help to compare). I also use the one on answercult.com because it is so unusual and direct (one might easly think it is stupid but it is blunt and can be inspiring but can be easly deceptive if one is vulnerable and wants to know to much what other people think). Finally I use deoxy.org.

I use all these resources to compare but try not to lose the focus of what my original question was. I often revert back to Richard Wilhelm's German version, more and more also relating to the Third Book and Commentaries.

My historical studies of the Yijing only serve the purpose to better understand it as a piece of literature but this is a bit like entering that big ocean. I recently asked the I Ching whether one could find out what the original meaning of 54.5 was (this was the one I was studying when I started this thread) and I got 29.5 from which I understood that such studies are full of pitfalls but that I had quite a good Omen and that I would not fill the bowl above the rim and that it was enough to get out of the danger zone. I interpret this that the objective of my historical studies is to improve my knowlegde of the Yijing as a piece of ancient Chinese literature only to widen my horizon when I look at hexagrams and lines in relation to questions which have to do with my own development.

I think I stop here. It was nice hearing your voice. Take care and good wishes.

 

[rodaki]

Seethis,
I had just finished writting some further explaining but I see you got your answer already

(Charly, thanks for your interesting post)