54 to 30 and 24/54

[pedro]

I got hex #59, all lines changing but topmost, to #30... Asking about my curent state of development
How can I interpret all this lines? I mean I can get a picture from both hexagrams, and I can get meaning from each and every line and sum it up, but how do I interpret this particular change as a whole?

I find lines to be most of the answer when there are few of them, but when I get such volatile hexagrams, part of the answer is not obtained by the sum of the lines texts (although thats the common basis for interpretation), but its something more than that, something that can only be extrapolated from the change as a whole.

It strikes me that although we can change from any hexagram to any other, the probabilities of change are not the same. The probabilities of each line type are not the same, and even if they were, the number of changing lines would differ from one change to the other. So there must be a trend hidden in the Yi, and I think the coin and yarrow oracles dont follow the same. This in the end is irrelevant, cause I think we get the intended answers one way or the other, even if statistics say otherwise.

Another change I had recently, is #24 to #54 (lines 2 and 4), and later its reverse. I understand 24, but 54 is a bit puzzling when taken out of a literal context. Specifically, in the field of spiritual development, what can be the deep meaning of 54 (I know there is one), and of it changing back and forth to 24 (return to your tao, thats clear)

I know both these changes are trying to tell me much, but I fail to see part of the answer. The Yi has stated clearly that Im in the down side of the cycle right now, and these are my chances to escape...

Harmen Mesker mentions the Yilin in another thread, which should be an attempt at understanding this. I would love to have a translation, but I think there is none. I figure it must be a very useful book for this situations, at least to unveil some of the meaning of the change as a whole (as opposed to the sum of the parts).
Harmen, is there any way I can bribe you to provide these change's verses??

 

[hmesker]

Hi Pedro,

Yes, I can be bribed, quite easily, actually. Just give me a..... no, that won't do. I think I could use...... nah, haven't had that for years, won't need it now, I think. Ah! Yes! Give me lots and lots of those round, square-like flat, thick thingies with fluffy..... nah, forget it. I'll do it for free.

The Yilin is indeed helpful with hexagrams with a lot of moving lines, it condenses all changes in one poetic verse. You still have to interpretate that verse, though....

I'll look up the verses of 59-30 and 24-54 for you. Please give me some time to translate them, the Yilin is written in old Chinese, which is difficult to master.

Best wishes,

Harmen.

 

[pedro]

lololol

Man you really have exquisite tastes
Thanks a lot for your offer, I hope its not too much trouble, and please, take as long as you wish, I am grateful that you even consider doing it!
Incidentally, do you have any ideas how this text could have been composed? I mean, it must have been the work of another inspired sage, but do you think it is derived from initial and resulting hex pairs, trying some how to sum up all lines, or something else? There must have been some sort of exhaustive scheme to sort it out

Anyway, thanks a lot, I'll be looking forward Best wishes
pedro

PS: are you sure about the fluffy thingies??? I can get'em at a good bargain... just say the word and I'll have'em in the mail

 

[hmesker]

> Incidentally, do you have
> any ideas how this text could have been composed? I mean, it
> must have been the work of another inspired sage, but do you
> think it is derived from initial and resulting hex pairs,
> trying some how to sum up all lines, or something else? There
> must have been some sort of exhaustive scheme to sort it out

Hi Pedro,

I haven't yet translated much from the Yilin, but what I noticed until now is that there is a strong link with the hexagrams, or at least with one of the two pairs. When you look at the poem for the combination 59-30, you will see there is a strong link with hexagram 30:

Fear dusk, hide in place
Await your time until the bright appears
In the end broad daylight comes
For in the world glory is master.

That's one from your order. 24-54 will come later.

We don't know much about the author Jiao Yanshou, nor how and why he wrote the book. A quick look at the introduction of my version of the Yilin doesn't tell much about that either, although I might be mistaken because it is a endless train of characters which I for the most part find hard to perceive a global meaning from. But I'll tell you what Michael Loewe writes about him in his 'A Biographical Dictionary of the Qin, Former Han & Xin Periods' (I just looooove that book):

Jiao Yanshou, style Gong, claimed to have received a training in the Changes (Yi) from Meng Xi, but that claim was denied by two of Meng Xi's own pupils. Of a poor family, his predilection for learning had earned him the favour and support of one of the kings of Liang, and encouraged to continue with his studies he was appointed Magistrate (Ling) of Xiaohuang in Chenliu. Thanks to his ability to predict the occurrence of trouble, he was able to preclude the outbreak of robberies in the county, which he administered with considerable care for the inhabitants. While due for promotion, the local leaders petitioned for him to stay in Xiaohuang, and he was allowed to do so, with an increased salary.
Jiao Yanshou's pupils included Jing Fang the Younger (died 37) [the 'inventor' of the Eight Houses, see my article for more info about him - HM], whom he saw as the man who would maintain his interpretation of the Changes. These were largely characterized by references to natural disasters. He applied the different hexagrams to the problems of daily life, taking climatic conditions and changes as significant indicators of the future; in each case his predictions were verified. (p. 194)

> PS: are you sure about the fluffy thingeys??? I can get'em
> at a good bargain... just say the word and I'll have'em in
> the mail [ wink ]

Well, a few years ago there was a Collectors Edition, which had 1 side covered with snippets of Persian rugs. It came in a blue-yellow box in the shape of an albatros with bells on its wings. If you opened the box you would hear 'Squeekyaggayaggasqueeksqueek'. If you can get thát one for me, I would be thrilled with joy. Happyhappyjoyjoy.....

Best wishes and have a nice weekend!

Harmen.

 

[hmesker]

Yilin 24-54:

Travel East, your car breaks down
Go back and return to your home
The Mandate of Heaven is settled in the end
Having no place to pray is ominous.

Harmen.

 

[pedro]

Hello Harmen,
First of all let me thank you for all your trouble, I only could reply now, but I really apreciate it.

>I haven't yet translated much from the Yilin, but what I noticed until
>now is that there is a strong link with the hexagrams, or at least with
>one of the two pairs.
>
>When you look at the poem for the combination 59-30, you will see there
>is a strong link with hexagram 30:
>
>Fear dusk, hide in place
>Await your time until the bright appears
>In the end broad daylight comes
>For in the world glory is master.

I see what you mean. Also "Fear dusk, hide in place" seems to relate to 59, maybe dusk is a sign of a nearcoming flood? I find it interesting that the image the next two lines bring, seems to agree with my intuitive notion of 59->30: dissipating ego (thoughts), and let the pure intelect emerge, like when the sun dissolves the clouds and shines through. Waiting for the bright to appear may be a metaphor for stilling ego and letting the pure mind shine through, so maybe there is a link with meditative practices.
I dont really grasp last line's meaning, "glory is master"? maybe the glory of reaching that state?

Anyway, I think I can start to sense the Yilin's style, from this and other verses you've been providing. Do you know if it predates the lines comments of the duke of chou? Although the lines are most important I think one should also try to figure the meaning of a change from the start and resulting hexagram alone. Each pair evokes some image, which in some cases may not really agree with the lines, but maybe it is a valid interpretation on its own, and maybe even more genuine, if it predates the whole system of lines.
When analyzing the favorable or unfavorable judgements for each line, we see that sometimes very positive hexagrams can generate very negative lines. In some cases, the (positive) resulting hexagram is where the line is going to (hence a positive judgement) and in other cases it seems what the line is lacking (hence the negative one). In any case this seems a later rationalization, only possible with the concept of individual lines, and I personally have had cases where I disregarded some of the lines message, cause I really felt the involved hexagrams were what it really was about

>But I'll tell you what Michael Loewe writes about him in his 'A Biographical
>Dictionary of the Qin, Former Han & Xin Periods' (I just looooove that book):

thanks for the tip

one more for my ever growing to-buy list

>Jiao Yanshou, style Gong, claimed to have received a training in the Changes (Yi) from Meng Xi,
>...
>He applied the different hexagrams to the problems of daily life, taking climatic
>conditions and changes as significant indicators of the future; in each case his
>predictions were verified. (p. 194)

Thanks for a very interesting quote. Reading about the accuracy, although I think it is possible, I wonder what his method was... In order to be sure, one must cast a lot and then take best out of three or whatever. Since the Yi isnt purely statistical, it wont just be right 50% of the time (lets say 70% is a reasonable estimation), so by repeating the same question one is bound to see a pattern emerge out of the "average"

>Yilin 24-54:
>
>Travel East, your car breaks down
>Go back and return to your home
>The Mandate of Heaven is settled in the end
>Having no place to pray is ominous.

Well, I can sense some logic here, not really sure what

East may be the region of Li, and 24 shows the intention (or need) of travelling the path to enlightenment. But then the bloody car breaks down... when I was almost there. So I might as well go back home, and trust the settlement of the mandate of heaven in the end (I havent read Marshal's, what's the mandate of heaven really, just the "power of heaven"?)
Im also puzzled by the last sentence. Ominous means "providinfg omens", right? And having no place to pray may mean that we can (have to) pray everywhere... or that we shouldnt settle on preconceived ways of praying.
In any case again I get this familiar sense from reading the verses, like this image resonates on some archetipal view of hexagram pairs that are indeed in all of us already

Incidentally, the text for 54->24 is different from 24->54, right? I dont need you to translate it, you've been so helpful already, but I wonder if you have ever compared this kind of mutation with its reverse.

Well, thanks again so much for your trouble, you deserve all the fluffy chocolate fudged thingies with a little pom-pom on top that I can find

Keep cool