55.1 > 62 Can women and men be friends?

[GreenBird]

Hi, I wanted to share this reading here:
Can women and men be friends? - 55.1 > 62

55.1 Abundance - "You encounter your match and counterpart, someone you can join with in alliance. Such an alliance is not meant to be a lifelong partnership; it is important not to presume on its strength and overstep its bounds" (Hilary)

62: Small Exceeding: Don't cross a line, (of morality or customs), if you do you'll find yourself in a whole new world - for better or worse.

Pretty straightforward? Friendships between men and women can be beneficial, but you have to navigate carefully (more carefully than in a same-sex/same-orientation friendship) - keep your eyes on the road and stay small.

 

[Trojina]

Hi, I wanted to share this reading here:
Can women and men be friends? - 55.1 > 62

How interesting, it's like there's more of a time limit or the friendship is more for a particular purpose.


It's a very general question, I'm sure many people do have good friends of the opposite sex but if I think about it mostly for me and for people I know, good friends tend to be same sex. With male friends there's always that slight tension, a slight need to be more boundarys as it can slip into more. There's also the phenomenon of the 'fcuk buddy' which I don't even believe truly exists. If you have sex with a friend they kind of stop being the same kind of friend.

Anyway it's an interesting question and answer. It's strange isn't it even in this modern age it's still much easier to have close friendship with same sex, speaking very generally that is, with plenty of exceptions of course. Personally I generally have female close friends. I have found also it's impossible to have male friends when I've been in a relationship with a man. However much he/they tries/have tried to get on with male friend it kind of doesn't work and I suppose it works the other way around too. I might struggle if the man I am in relationship with has close female friend. I think often there's initial suspicion.

 

[Freedda]

Can women and men be friends? - 55.1 > 62

This made me wonder, is the question, 'Can women and men be friends?' Or is it, 'Can I (you) be friends with men or women (depending on which side of the fence you're on)'? One is more general, one is more personal to you - and if I were asking this, this latter one would seem more informative for me.

I also was thinking, where would gay or bisexual, or transgender people fit into this binary (0/1, male/female, yin/yang) equation? All of which tends to lead me back to a more personal query and response.

all the best ....

 

[GreenBird]

How interesting, it's like there's more of a time limit or the friendship is more for a particular purpose.

The only "real" male friend I've ever had was at uni. We were both in the middle of our twenties. The friendship deteriorated when he started to date one of my female (close) friends and she became jealous. Interestingly enough, we met 20 years later at a function and had absolutely nothing to say to each other. It was shocking to me, because we had been so close. But this could happen to a female friend, too, I guess, this growing apart, I don't know. On the other hand, I have female friends I've known for over 30 years, and even though we might not have talked for years, we are able to immediately reconnect.

With male friends there's always that slight tension, a slight need to be more boundarys as it can slip into more. There's also the phenomenon of the 'fcuk buddy' which I don't even believe truly exists. If you have sex with a friend they kind of stop being the same kind of friend.

Again, agreed. When I asked my question, I had purely platonic friendships in mind, with no sex involved.

 

[GreenBird]

This made me wonder, is the question, 'Can women and men be friends?' Or is it, 'Can I (you) be friends with men or women (depending on which side of the fence you're on)'? One is more general, one is more personal to you - and I were asking this, this latter one would seem more informative for me.

I wanted to keep this particular reading as impersonal as possible. Asking non-personal questions is new for me.

I also was thinking, where would gay or bisexual, or transgender people fit into this binary (0 /1, male/female, yin/yang) equation?

Good question. I would think it boils down to: "Can a person you could theoretically be sexually attracted to, be a friend" but that's also tricky.

 

[Freedda]

Can a person you could theoretically be sexually attracted to, be a friend" but that's also tricky .... These thoughts aside, the answer felt quite spot-on.

Well, if you got a spot-on answer, than that is good. And I also think that adding in the 'theoreticallly attracted to' aspect would get tricky.

I would only add that if you are wanting a personal answser (which fits you), I find that sometimes it is better to pose a more personal query. I have had women friends at work whom I was very attracted to, but I was still able to be friends with them because I understood the limits of our relationship. And I've had times when the sexual attraction very much got in the way of a friendship (or our working relationship).

I just don't know how a more general question/response can include that spectrum, or how any answer could apply to all women and all men, in all situations.

But again, if you're happy, I'm happy.

 

[Liselle]

I think the way people often ask "Can men and women be friends?," it's a bit of a cliched, rhetorical question. Vaguely like "How could I have done such a thing??" - not that much of a cliche, people have genuine conversations about it, but also sometimes it's not meant to be answered as much as sighed over.

So you might say, "How could I have done such a thing??" rhetorically to yourself or another person, but then turn around and ask Yi in all seriousness to help you understand how you could have done such a thing. This is similar, I think.

Bradford has a different take on it. Not a time limit that shouldn't be exceeded, more like even at a peak moment like 55, if you meet someone important you ought to make time for them. You can afford to, and you should.

You can’t rejoice thus forever, and outside the world keeps moving, but few are so important that the spirits can’t go for ten days without them.

Don't know how to apply that to this, though.

 

[Liselle]

Not that it has to apply... I just got done saying that in someone else's thread, that every angle won't apply to every question...

Anyway - mentioning it because it exists.

 

[GreenBird]

OK, sigh. I asked this particular question because I have a (female) friend who keeps referring to another (male) person as a "friend," when in reality she is quite attracted to them - I guess one and the other doesn't exclude each other. Is it my business? No, probably not.

Thinking about this situation, however, I started to muse this morning if it is AT ALL possible for men and women to be "just" friends. Or does sexual tension unvoluntarily come in when you are on the same wavelength, which you are when you are friends?

I asked and got 55.1. I found the answer interesting, because it clearly states, yes, it's possible and enhancing, but be aware, boundaries are tighter, just watch your step.

Liselle, I don't see that Bradford's interpretation is not about time limits.

 

[Liselle]

Oh you don't have to explain detail, GreenBird. Sorry if you thought I was asking for that. This is a very commonly-thought-about question. It's a cliche for a reason. It's interesting what Yi has to say about it.

Liselle, I don't see that Bradford's interpretation is not about time limits.

Well it is in a way, it just seems to me that he and Hilary have different emphases.

Hilary: "Such an alliance is not meant to be a lifelong partnership; it is important not to...overstep its bounds."
Bradford: the previous quote, "You can’t rejoice thus forever, and outside the world keeps moving, but few are so important that the spirits can’t go for ten days without them."

Hilary seems to emphasize the limit, not letting it go on too long. Bradford seems to emphasize allowing it the time it needs.

 

[Liselle]

There's also the whole "I married my best friend" thing. Although my impression of people who say that is not that they had tried and failed to only be friends, more that they're happy their romantic interest is also their friend.

 

[Liselle]

And then, yes, there's the "we're just friends" thing. That could have many motivations. Fear, denial, privacy, wanting to avoid questions and pressure...

 

[marybluesky]

Hello;

the answer is a big YES: you have recieved the great line of partnership whose several translations indicate equality.

My personal experience says "yes" too.

 

[Trojina]

Hilary: "Such an alliance is not meant to be a lifelong partnership; it is important not to...overstep its bounds."

The problem is with this interpretation 'not meant to be a lifelong partnership' is I have seen people get it about their 40 year marriage and they are still married and not intending to break up so I don't think the time thing holds as much as the purpose of the relationship. But even then when a person casts it about their very long marriage the usual interpretation isn't enough.

 

[Liselle]

Good information, thanks. What did you think it meant for those people? (Unless you don't want to say.) I mean, I see you're saying "purpose of the relationship" but I'm not sure what to make of that.

 

[Trojina]

I don't know, it was on this forum in CC I think and we all waffled enough to make it fit but it was a long time ago, it just stuck in my mind as this person was very stable and committed in marriage though as in any marriage I think there were issues which is what gave rise to the question. Hmm hope I'm not breaching confidentiality, though I think that's vague enough to be anyone.

Of course no commentary will ever suffice any line, we have to just go back to what the line actually says and work from there.

Re the 'purpose', well people who develop a relationship through shared interests/projects/mutual friends. I think the line can often indicate a transformative relationship. You must recall meeting people who changed your thinking or influenced you, say a college friend or something. The bond was there for a set time and you both learned from it, it was never meant to be a lifelong relationship for it's own sake. For example you and I may influence one another in important ways but one day either you or I won't be here any more (don't cry)...we haven't developed a long term relationship but it's still a worthwhile connection.... ...sorry it's just an example I'm not trying to analyse our forum relationship. We only met through I Ching and we may influence each other through that. I would say in a decade or more I will still remember you and your own way of working with Yi even if we no longer are even here. So whilst it's temporary relationship it's important enough to influence both of us. Does that make sense ? I can think of school friends who changed my thinking who I only knew for 2 years...and actually when I was small, about 6 years old, there was another girl at school who influenced me profoundly, I adored her, she was very popular, everyone wanted to play with her at break time. When she had to leave the school she promised to play with me on her last day. What an honour ! That must have been important enough for me to remember. that was a kept promise, a bond of loyalty. Make sense ? I've never seen her since but she is part of my inner landscape in a way other school friends were not. That is what I think of as a 55.1 ish thing.

 

[Liselle]

You may forget me but don't forget Tibbles.

(Teasing, of course - I understand what you mean.)

 

[GreenBird]

Hilary: "Such an alliance is not meant to be a lifelong partnership; it is important not to...overstep its bounds."
Bradford: the previous quote, "You can’t rejoice thus forever, and outside the world keeps moving, but few are so important that the spirits can’t go for ten days without them." Hilary seems to emphasize the limit, not letting it go on too long. Bradford seems to emphasize allowing it the time it needs.

I see: Hilary: not life-long; Bradford: ten days. In both cases, though, a limited amount of time. Thinking of it, it rings kind of true. Maybe there are more outside and inside forces that can jeopardize them: one or the other party might suddenly want "more"; partners might get jealous, etc. Also, I've never really heard of life-long cross-gender friendships. Some people I've known stayed in touch with their exes (no kids involved), but I guess that's a different thing.

I think the line can often indicate a transformative relationship. You must recall meeting people who changed your thinking or influenced you

I like that!

 

[Freedda]

.... Also, I've never really heard of life-long cross-gender friendships ....

One of my closest friends is an ex - and a few of my closest friends are gay (I'm a straight guy, they are women) - so my conclusion is, you can not make any conclusions or speak in absolutes about this aspect of human relationships.

And if you do, for me it starts to sound suspiciously like prejudice or pre-judging - and it doesn't feel much different than someone saying, "black people are always like this", or "Jews always act that way" .... or women and men can never be friends.

Or ... perhaps what the Yi is saying here - in this one instance - has to do with you, and not with the rest of us.

all the best ....

 

[Liselle]

Freedda, I haven't heard anyone on this thread say anything remotely like that. GreenBird was talking about her personal experience. Mine is the same - I don't know a man and woman who aren't married to each other who are friends in the way we're talking about. (I suppose if you go to "I'm friends with my boyfriend's/husband's friends," maybe, but I don't think that's what we're talking about. They're not the woman's personal friends in that case.)

Thank you for sharing your experience - now we can all say we know someone who's close friends with an ex. I don't know anyone like that, either.

My favorite formulation of this so far is actually not GreenBird's original question, but the one she got to by talking to you -

Good question. I would think it boils down to: "Can a person you could theoretically be sexually attracted to, be a friend" but that's also tricky.

(I don't know what she meant by "that's also tricky," though.)

Re: the reading, maybe it's saying something like, "Here's what would have to happen in order for this to happen." What Greenbird said in the first place:

you have to navigate carefully (more carefully than in a same-sex/same-orientation friendship) - keep your eyes on the road and stay small.

If you're able to sacrifice potential romance in order to just be friends, maybe if the friendship is important enough. Like conquering the Shang was important enough to abandon the also-very-important mourning tradition.

The line, going by Bradford's and Wilhelm's take on it: This person and friendship is important enough that you're willing to do unusual things to allow it to happen.

Struggling to put this into words. But there are quite a few unusual and/or important/peak things going on in this reading:

• abandoning an important tradition because there was something even more important to do (oracle)
• taking time out of such a moment to meet with someone extraordinarily important (line)
• being extraordinarily careful (62)

 

[Trojina]

You may forget me but don't forget Tibbles.

(Teasing, of course - I understand what you mean.)

Tibbles is forever etched on my heart

 

[Freedda]

Freedda, I haven't heard anyone on this thread say anything remotely like that.

And I never said that either. What I said was that if you do, .... for me it starts to sound suspiciously like prejudice or pre-judging ....

I don't see that as much different than you saying, "I think the way people often ask "Can men and women be friends?," it's a bit of a cliched, rhetorical question. I mean, hey, I haven't heard anyone on this thread say anything remotely like that!

I made an IF statement, and I'm sharing my opinion as is everyone here. And I think it is not a bad thing to share a concern I have - about taking a response and then trying to universally apply it. And if no one is doing that, then what I said doesn't apply to them.

And it seems that another way you could interpret the Yi's response to this question is:

"I can't really give you an answer that would apply to all people and all situations - so in lieu of that, when you approach this particular situation ... navigate carefully - keep your eyes on the road and stay small. Otherwise, you run the risk of pre-judging people and situations before you know much about them."

 

[Liselle]

Well "sharing a concern" when it's not based on anything that's actually happened can seem like an accusation. Do you see how that could be?

 

[Freedda]

Well "sharing a concern" when it's not based on anything that's actually happened can seem like an accusation. Do you see how that could be? Pre-judging in its own way, to me at least.

When I see that GreenBird wrote:

"... you have to navigate carefully (more carefully than in a same-sex/same-orientation friendship) ..."

... I think that's ample reason to voice my concern. The Yi's response never compared these different types of relationships, nor did it say that we need to be more concerned about one over the other. So, therefore, I don't think what I said is in any way pre-judging anyone.

 

[Liselle]

Freedda, her entire question to Yi in the first place was about the difference between same-sex/same-orientation friendship and not-that friendship. That was the entire premise.

And 62 is about being extra careful.
'A noble one in actions exceeds in respect,
In loss exceeds in mourning,
In spending exceeds in economy.'

Maybe this is an unresolvable argument, not sure.

 

[Liselle]

This was a bit of cross-posting

And it seems that another way you could interpret the Yi's response to this question is:

"I can't really give you an answer that would apply to all people and all situations - so in lieu of that, when you approach this particular situation ... navigate carefully - keep your eyes on the road and stay small. Otherwise, you run the risk of pre-judging people and situations before you know much about them."

55 and 55.1 don't sound to me like "maybe you shouldn't ask about this." They sound to me like an answer. Question about friendship // answer about "partner and lord"...

On the other hand I certainly don't feel I've figured out exactly what the reading means. "It's unusual, but if you can purposely be careful around any romantic complications" - iow a description of what it would be like, what would have to happen - pretty much what GreenBird said in her first post - is the closest we've gotten I think.

That's pretty neutral, I think. I mean, do you want to say any more about your friendship with your ex? Is there any aspect of not bringing your former romance into it? (Perfectly fine if you don't want to talk about it on a public thread, obviously.)

 

[GreenBird]

Wow, I really like how you have dissected and still are dissecting the line (55.1). When I posted, I thought, well, there's probably not much else to say, seems quite clear-cut, boy, was I wrong. Thank you for all your thoughts. I also remembered more examples, for instance, having had (almost 15 years ago) a gay friend and my partner at the time having a hard time with me staying over with her, spending the night - I had business to do in her city several times and it was kind of a natural thing to do - and she had offered it - I don't think it would have been the same with him and a "straight" female friend.

Also, I didn't mean to offend anyone, neither do I have an agenda. I'm new here (which is not an excuse) and English is not my native language (which is not an excuse). Sorry, if what I wrote was misleading.

Well, have a good weekend - here in the States it's Memorial Day weekend, and oh, so different from last year. GreenBird

 

[Liselle]

Hope you have a good weekend, too, GreenBird.

 

[Freedda]

.... I didn't mean to offend anyone ... I'm new here (which is not an excuse) and English is not my native language .... Sorry, if what I wrote was misleading.

I think what you wrote was fine. And I never felt misled or offended by what you said.