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57.2 Historians and diviners

suivis

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I have had this line come up in a few castings over the last few months but it always baffles me. Does anyone have some insight or real-life experiences with it that may help shed some light under the bed?
 

tuckchang

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For your reference

史巫紛

For the perspective in paraphrasing the text:
It is better to understand 史shi巫wu as the diviner and the witch.
史shi is regarded as the official (in ancient time) who makes the memorandum of events, the post of which originally comes from the one of incising the oracle bone script, which here refers to the diviner in compared to 巫wu, a witch.
The diviner is the one who has insight into that which is fortunate or unfortunate (i.e. to deter people from doing wrong), and the witch is the one who blesses for good fortune and driving off misfortune (i.e. to expel evil and bring goodness).
紛fen is the wrapping cloth of the horse’s tail and commonly used to describe things numerous and disorderly, like a crowded market, which here refers to various activities.

The shade beneath the bed is where evil and corruption conceal.

Regards
Tuck
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suivis

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紛fen gives me a better image to work on with this. When it's something that contains disorder, why is it used to describe things that are numerous and disorderly?

A few thoughts here:
It only controls some of the disorder, with the rest of the horse's tail flying about.
While there are many things that are disorderly, the disorder is restricted to a small area and not the whole beast.
?

I'm going to have to think on the 史shi巫wu some more. It seems like you are acting through others instead of yourself. In some of the translations I see you are the one hiding in evil and corruption and in others you are trying to ferret out the evil and corruption in someone else.

The core idea seems to be using resources to get to the bottom of an old story and work on changing bad fortune into good and, maybe, disorder into order. I'm trying to see how using diviners and witches who are disorderly and numerous is going to help a situation unless you're trying to be tricky, which I don't think Yi would recommend in most situations.

Unless the evil and corruption would be made stronger by direct confrontation, which is the theme of another line that I don't recall offhand. Getting small amounts of information and making small progress through multiple disparate resources? Almost like a rumor spreads from one person to the next, but with more consistency?
 

bradford

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As in the lore of Sorcery, getting a thing named properly is the first step in getting it under control.
There are problems, though, in generalizing, as is seen when something similar happens in 57.6.
 

meng

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The priest can only repeat the prayers, incantations and methods which have been prescribed, passed down to him or her to minister the divination of the deity. The shaman is or becomes the deity. Something is bound to be lost through ministering, even if order is preserved and confusion is avoided, however that has its pitfalls. The shaman may have you start upon yet again a new path or perspective, the subtleties which have been lost and can be established only from new, direct experience with deity.
 

charly

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The priest can only repeat the prayers, incantations and methods which have been prescribed, passed down to him or her to minister the divination of the deity. The shaman is or becomes the deity. Something is bound to be lost through ministering, even if order is preserved and confusion is avoided, however that has its pitfalls. The shaman may have you start upon yet again a new path or perspective, the subtleties which have been lost and can be established only from new, direct experience with deity.
ARE YOU, BRUCE?

I like it!

Charly
 

charly

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As in the lore of Sorcery, getting a thing named properly is the first step in getting it under control.
There are problems, though, in generalizing, as is seen when something similar happens in 57.6.

57.2 and 57.6 both have GENTLE UNDER THE BED, being the first LUCKY and NO WRONG and the last HORRIBLE.

Remembering Waley I've translated so:

57.2:

GENTLE BELOW THE BED.
Gentle = lucky cricket, cicada or another sort of BUG of good omen.

USING DIVINERS AND WITCHES PROFUSELY.
Diviners used to be male and WU witches / shamans, female
Using them in profusion.

LUCKY. NO WRONG.
Fortunate and correct.

To have a very good omen, like that of a lucky cricket under the bed, ...
... is like to have profusion of diviners and withches working for us.

Association: to be GENTLE in BED AFFAIRS is a great advantage.


57.6:

GENTLE BELOW THE BED.
Gentle = lucky cricket, cicada or another sort of BUG of good omen.

LOST ONE'S ENDOWED HATCHET: HORRIBLE!
Losing money and power: unfortunate.

Even if we have the best omens, if we lose our received weapon, all is useless.

Advice: reserve your capital, otherwise the consequences should be horrible.

Legge sometimes translated XUN as FLEXIBLE instead of GENTLE. both different of SUBMISSIVE or OBEDIENT.

Yours,


Charly
 

charly

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史巫紛
...
The shade beneath the bed is where evil and corruption conceal.
...

Hi, Tuck:

Maybe is our own fear that's under the bed.

jlvn522l.jpg


From: http://www.cartoonstock.com/directory/u/under_the_bed.asp

Yours,

Charly
 

tuckchang

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Form the perspective in paraphrasing the text and for your reference

As you might know, a single Chinese character might have various and different meanings, which can only be properly understood according to the context or together with the related characters in a set. Some sentences in the I Ching are constituted by several independent characters and arranged in an uncommon syntax (not a poet but similar). Usually I interpret the text after I realize what it intends to tell me and according to what I understand.

用(to use)史(the diviner)巫(the witch)紛若(as if) is better to understand to act like the diviner and the witch. 用does mean to use (and ...... in other cases) but it is better to interpret it as to act like the one of 1.1 (hidden dragon,勿donot用act), especially when 若(as if) is involved.

In my opinion, a hexagram might tell us several different concepts which are revealed from its name, images, texts and ..... The lines of 57 are telling me a story of entering into an organization like the wind (or involving into a problem, or …) to reform it (or solve it …) internally, and eventually converting the old forces into one’s own, and starting to establish one’s own regime, as well as realizing one’s ideal.

Because of modesty and obedience of Xun, 57.1 hesitates to enter into (the subject like the one under the bed) and 57. 6 hesitates to get out (from the shade under the bed as an insider) even after the task is successfully accomplished.

57.2 is the one who carries out ……, auspiciousness, no calamity (or fault), which tell me it works. 紛fen is annotated as the wrapping cloth (of the horse’s tail) by Shuowen (which only provides the original meaning but not the extended ones), and also means many and disorder, as well as happiness .... (in other ancient dictionaries), which here, in my opinion, refer to various and different actions (taken by the diviner and the witch) like the numerous and disorder hairs (of the horse’s tail) wrapped and swinging together, and like a crowded market hustling and bustling but aiming for one end, selling and buying.

The ancient Chinese literature very often plays the game of character. The connotation can’t be caught by just understanding the literal meaning of its characters, for instance, 日(the sun)薄(thin)西山(the west mountain)近(close). People can hardly catch its meaning if they only see the sun (is) thin and the west mountain (is) close. But after they know it means the sunset, they will get the picture and supprised of how wonderful 薄(thin) and 近(close) are used there.

Regards
Tuck
www.iching123.com
 

tuckchang

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From the perspective in paraphrasing a divination and for your reference

In my opinion, the answer usually depends on the question and the diviner. If I were the diviner, and for instance, the question were ‘changing to a new job because of the trouble with the current one or boss’, the answer of 57.1 would be No but trying to solve the current trouble; if the question were whether one should take a physical examination or a surgeon operation, the answer would be Yes; ………; if the question were ‘making love with somebody’s wife’, please see what Charly posted, but if 57.1 changes to 53, she would become your wife. :rofl:

Regards
Tuck
 

charly

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...
用(to use)史(the diviner)巫(the witch)紛若(as if) is better to understand to act like the diviner and the witch. ...
The ancient Chinese literature very often plays the game of character. The connotation can’t be caught by just understanding the literal meaning of its characters ...
Hi, Tuck:

I like it all.

I have a rule, I don´t remember from where I´ve taken it: when we are in doubt, first of all try if the shirt fits to us.

Don´t we know what are the diviners and witches? → OURSELVES!

Maybe our own inner historianm our own inner shaman, say, our experience and our special skills.

Yours,

Charly
 

charly

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... if the question were ‘making love with somebody’s wife’, please see what Charly posted, but if 57.1 changes to 53, she would become your wife. :rofl:
Hi, Tuck:

Of course, that sort of things often happen.
Maybe the precept about our neighbor´s wife has something to do with «rich because of one´s neighbors»?
I always believed hat the Changes was not cattivi pensieri free.

All the best,


Charly
 

tuckchang

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I'm going to have to think on the 史shi巫wu some more. It seems like you are acting through others instead of yourself. In some of the translations I see you are the one hiding in evil and corruption and in others you are trying to ferret out the evil and corruption in someone else.

Hi, Charly,

I was just trying to explain what are the meanings of 用 and 'under the bed' to me.

Regards
Tuck
 

charly

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Hi, Charly,

I was just trying to explain what are the meanings of 用 and 'under the bed' to me.

Regards
Tuck
See, Tuck:

I´m not responsible for all the mistakes that people can do, even if my influence might be not good.

Maybe you were speaking to Suivis. :confused:

Yours,

Charly

p.d.:
Tuck, are you there?
Be aware that I was not the one that posted the aggressive coments which I don't share neither understand. Far from my intention to offend you or anybody.
Ch.
 
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suivis

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用(to use)史(the diviner)巫(the witch)紛若(as if) is better to understand to act like the diviner and the witch. 用does mean to use (and ...... in other cases) but it is better to interpret it as to act like the one of 1.1 (hidden dragon,勿donot用act), especially when 若(as if) is involved.
Having some training in shamanism and a familiarity with Wicca, this makes so much more sense now. I was thinking of this in terms of finding diviners and shamans, but this was an AHA moment. The mindset and paths to inner peace are very different but both view the divine connectedness in things. You don't have to take an action directly, but open yourself up to the thing that connects everything. The diviner will send up prayers to the sacred. The shaman searches for the sacred through a journey, following the threads that bind us and untangling them or finding the lost shards and returning them (or pointing them on the path of return) to their source.

In my opinion, a hexagram might tell us several different concepts which are revealed from its name, images, texts and ..... The lines of 57 are telling me a story of entering into an organization like the wind (or involving into a problem, or …) to reform it (or solve it …) internally, and eventually converting the old forces into one’s own, and starting to establish one’s own regime, as well as realizing one’s ideal.

Because of modesty and obedience of Xun, 57.1 hesitates to enter into (the subject like the one under the bed) and 57. 6 hesitates to get out (from the shade under the bed as an insider) even after the task is successfully accomplished.

57.2 is the one who carries out ……, auspiciousness, no calamity (or fault), which tell me it works. 紛fen is annotated as the wrapping cloth (of the horse’s tail) by Shuowen (which only provides the original meaning but not the extended ones), and also means many and disorder, as well as happiness .... (in other ancient dictionaries), which here, in my opinion, refer to various and different actions (taken by the diviner and the witch) like the numerous and disorder hairs (of the horse’s tail) wrapped and swinging together, and like a crowded market hustling and bustling but aiming for one end, selling and buying.
{QUOTE]

Understanding the connectedness of things, one hesitates to take major action because it can do more harm than good. Intervention is something done because it is needed. You can act in small ways without nearly as much worry. Especially when you're doing something like trying to restore someone's soul shards, you take extra precautions and move things slowly. Even though they are meant to be whole, taking on too much at once can break them more. In the tradition that I learned, you would either gently blow on one or connect the soul and shards with different threads that would slowly contract. You needed to go back and check on them, but it allowed for a progressive healing that isn't overwhelming.

Seeing this more as "view as the diviner and the shaman" really puts this line in perspective for me. Thank you, Tuck! :bows::bows::bows:
 

suivis

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Hi, Charly,

I was just trying to explain what are the meanings of 用 and 'under the bed' to me.

Regards
Tuck

Tuck, please forgive me. I was using I and you in a very general sense, not directed at you, Tuck. I tend to "think out-loud" with those pronouns instead of using one or oneself to help me better personalize and ingest the knowledge. You have been very helpful to me in understanding this line. :eek:

My most sincere apologies,
Suivis
 

meng

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A friend sent this to me recently.

Bowlby’s approach to theory construction resembles the approach Darwin claimed to use in a letter to his son Horace (quoted by Bowlby in his biography of Darwin, 1990, p. 411):

"I have been speculating last night what makes a man a discoverer of undiscovered things; and a most perplexing problem it is. Many men who are very clever – much cleverer than the discoverers – never originate anything. As far as I can conjecture the art consists in habitually searching for the causes and meaning of everything which occurs. This implies sharp observation, and requires as much knowledge as possible of the subject investigated."

The difference between know mind and no mind.
 

meng

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Don´t we know what are the diviners and witches? → OURSELVES!

Maybe our own inner historianm our own inner shaman, say, our experience and our special skills.

I don't think a shaman functions on the basis of owning a special skill, though a historian might.

True self in itself is to me a questionable term, unless one considers consciousness a thing which can be individually possessed, rather than what one awakens to and therefore has access to. Self is only a small container, which can hold a limited supply of what is abundantly available everywhere, like the wind. What’s more, when a group of selves join together, rather than the group’s consciousness being proportionately enlarged, consciousness is mostly redundant, though an individual self may experience a stronger sense of itself through reaffirmations from others, it is the group who experiences a sense of edification, felt or experienced as increase of their true self - ones own special skill. But as to whether the available boundless stream of consciousness increases would amount to how much the sea would rise if we dive into it. We do not increase consciousness. Therefore if a conscious entity dissolves this small container of self and merges with the limitless stream of consciousness, how much greater is the increase, when rather than possessing we are possessed? Then it is impossible to say we are alone, unless we refer to the entire stream, and that is an oxymoron. A shaman is never alone, nor possesses a special skill. They are possessed.
 

charly

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Bruce, my friend:

«No man is an island», of course.

I was not speaking of the TRUE SELF, no self is true. I have a rule, when I don't uderstand who is a given character, I first put his shirt myself on and see if it fits to me. Nothing scientific, neither philosophical, only practice.

Sometimes it functions.

In words of Kerson Huang, it functions even if one doesn't believe in it.

Yours,

Charly
 

bradford

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I have had this line come up in a few castings over the last few months but it always baffles me. Does anyone have some insight or real-life experiences with it that may help shed some light under the bed?


Naming the unknown thing is conducive to a better night's sleep.
 

veavea

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Reviving an old thread.

Naming the unknown thing is conducive to a better night's sleep.

I had this line (actually 57.2.5 > 52) for the question: Is there really magic in the world? I wasn't sure if this was a yes or no...! Maybe I should ask the witches under the bed! :rolleyes:

On its own (57.2 > 53) I've had the line for the questions:
1. Can I block this number from calling me? I was being disturbed by an unknown caller, but since I never responded to the call, I had no idea who was on the other end and it was this factor that bothered me.
2. I've also had the line - today - because of feeling overwhelmed with too many things to do - or at least, feeling as though I can't see the wood for the trees.
3. Q: 'Today I just want to be creative but feel guilty - am I missing something important that I need to do?' (I don't remember what subsequently happened that day... !)

ACTUALLY... looking back at those examples a little voice in my head (probably a witch) is yelling 'WRITE A LIST'. When feeling overwhelmed or bothered by things that I *might* have to do if only I could remember what they are - write a list!! get those nagging worries out from under the bed (the subconscious) and down on paper so you can see what you need to do and prioritise accordingly... likewise my worry about the phone call was that it was someone calling me about something I'd forgotten to do and was trying to ignore, like a bill or something. So somewhat suppressing my worries/tasks but still being bothered by them lurking in the swamp-regions of my mind. (And then trying vainly to exorcise them with the I Ching.)

I'd be interested to know if anyone else has any thoughts/experiences about this line too.
 

diamant

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Thanks for sharing veavea!
Lists, and lots of confusing communications seem to be how it usually plays out for me too.
Here are two striking examples of mine about 57.2 > 53.

I was asking if a very important particular appointment would happen 'that day'.
I needed it to happen, badly, it was a medical appointment.
I took it to mean yes if you call the "confused scribes" again and again and again.
It played out just like that. They had messed up their appointment schedules terribly.
I called repeatedly, spoke with many confused people, in the end my persistence won :)

I was asking if it will be practically possible to renew my passport within a particular timeframe.
I took the answer to mean "yes if you make sure you have ready all the lengthy paperwork".
And yes, I took care of the complicated paperwork, bit by bit following a list, and got it done.
 

Olga Super Star

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I got the same line asking about my beloved great aunt, where is she? I miss her terribly.

Not so distant from veavea s question. after all magic is involved
 
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Topher

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Form the perspective in paraphrasing the text and for your reference

As you might know, a single Chinese character might have various and different meanings, which can only be properly understood according to the context or together with the related characters in a set. Some sentences in the I Ching are constituted by several independent characters and arranged in an uncommon syntax (not a poet but similar). Usually I interpret the text after I realize what it intends to tell me and according to what I understand.

用(to use)史(the diviner)巫(the witch)紛若(as if) is better to understand to act like the diviner and the witch. 用does mean to use (and ...... in other cases) but it is better to interpret it as to act like the one of 1.1 (hidden dragon,勿donot用act), especially when 若(as if) is involved.

In my opinion, a hexagram might tell us several different concepts which are revealed from its name, images, texts and ..... The lines of 57 are telling me a story of entering into an organization like the wind (or involving into a problem, or …) to reform it (or solve it …) internally, and eventually converting the old forces into one’s own, and starting to establish one’s own regime, as well as realizing one’s ideal.

Because of modesty and obedience of Xun, 57.1 hesitates to enter into (the subject like the one under the bed) and 57. 6 hesitates to get out (from the shade under the bed as an insider) even after the task is successfully accomplished.

57.2 is the one who carries out ……, auspiciousness, no calamity (or fault), which tell me it works. 紛fen is annotated as the wrapping cloth (of the horse’s tail) by Shuowen (which only provides the original meaning but not the extended ones), and also means many and disorder, as well as happiness .... (in other ancient dictionaries), which here, in my opinion, refer to various and different actions (taken by the diviner and the witch) like the numerous and disorder hairs (of the horse’s tail) wrapped and swinging together, and like a crowded market hustling and bustling but aiming for one end, selling and buying.

The ancient Chinese literature very often plays the game of character. The connotation can’t be caught by just understanding the literal meaning of its characters, for instance, 日(the sun)薄(thin)西山(the west mountain)近(close). People can hardly catch its meaning if they only see the sun (is) thin and the west mountain (is) close. But after they know it means the sunset, they will get the picture and supprised of how wonderful 薄(thin) and 近(close) are used there.

Regards
Tuck
www.iching123.com
This description made it clear

To solve the problems caused by bad actions you should use former iching readings(acting as a witch or anything isnt a literal meaning it's probably describing the process how iching was created so using the records means using whatever worked in the past with iching castings in a similar situation or perhaps means just use the iching cast that were already given to one while being under the bed is the underlying problem)

Penetrating into the fundament.
Consult records,
witches are confusing.
Good fortune,
without fault.


witches are confusing could mean that guessing what could happen is uncertain just the 49.5 only that here the problem is the diviner(iching) doesnt know what would happen just use what has been given/worked before(consult records), only by following this there is Good fortune

If there is no 'witches are confusing' in the translation maybe means by looking at your subconciouss and trying to act as a diviner using what has worked in the past(either iching readings or own solutions) one could possibly have Good fortune

Edit:asked and iching answered 20uc meaning one should try to be the one to use the former solutions but one be who should examine the elements(this is related to the advice in 53.2 the yao fan, so whatever is the offering one should determine it(curiously I asked about the advice in 53.2 and 20uc was the answer )

Examining.
Washed, but not offered.
There is confidence in discretion.

In 53.2 interpretation I saw mentioned a consession(something done to someone with posible an intention to ask something in return) so basically is saying to not ask something in return (at least in my case maybe even dont try to offer anything aswell) now washed? as in cleaning?
 
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Lana73123

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Personal experience with this line today.
Question — “what was that training meeting all about?” Received Hexagram 57.2 > 53. ((The translated text offered me no understanding but this thread was marvelous!! ))
context - I took a new job in late Feb 2021 (almost 5 months ago). It has been extremely stressful, confusing, disjointed, scattered. But everyone (almost everyone) in the department feels the same way even though everyone’s job is a little different but we all generally use the same information (the origin of the chaos). It became so chaotic and unproductive that the “lead” person had no choice but to get everyone together and figure out where the problems are (at my suggestion). We all prepared, each of us separately, a list of our issues. Once it was written down (on the white board) - and aired for all of us to hear at once - it became clear — the issue(s). Now, we will see if the “leader” can implement the changes that are needed.
Especially insightful to me was Tuck’s presentation and meng’s quote of Darwin.
thank you all!!
Lana
 

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