58.4 > 60 About a missed relationship

[Extevan]

Hello. I found myself in a situation that may sound as old as the world. To cut it short, I had the opportunity to be in a relationship with a woman I really liked and cared for. One bad decision on my part has resulted in her going elsewhere. Basically our paths split at that fork in the road. She is now with someone else since recently. I see them together and it's unbelievable to me how what they are experiencing (images of love and daily life) exactly what I imagined in mind for me and her, only with another guy in the picture in place of myself. A sliding doors kind of situation that is driving me insane. I am feeling a lot of sorrow and regret.
Needing some kind of answer to understand and soothe my pain I asked the Iching if she found in this guy the love of her life and if they will be together for long.

I got 58.4 > 60.

I see it's all about joy, which I interpret as they are really happy together. The 4th changing line doesn't give me more input and I don't understand it, there's a reference to word "usurpation" which suggest me that I was usurped by this guy and it could have been in his place. But maybe I am going too far with that interpretation, being carried away by my feelings. It results in hex 60: "restriction". But I can't make any sense out of it.

What do you think about this? I don't even know if it's right to ask the Iching about other people. What other kind of questions could I formulate to help me makes of this painful situation?

Thank you.

 

[Trojina]

Needing some kind of answer to understand and soothe my pain I asked the Iching if she found in this guy the love of her life and if they will be together for long.

I got 58.4 > 60.

I see it's all about joy, which I interpret as they are really happy together. The 4th changing line doesn't give me more input and I don't understand it, there's a reference to word "usurpation" which suggest me that I was usurped by this guy and it could have been in his place. But maybe I am going too far with that interpretation, being carried away by my feelings. It results in hex 60: "restriction". But I can't make any sense out of it.

I don't think the word 'usurpation' is there at all, probably you got it from someone's commentary so it's their word not the I Ching's.

If I take the answer as answering your question very directly then I'd say things aren't 100% settled between them. 58 is to do with open exchange, joy in sharing, delights that make one forget hardship. In line 4 there's a niggle that mars all this

58.4 says

'Haggling opening, not yet at rest.
Putting limits on the affliction brings rejoicing.'

As well as 58 being to do with sharing, joy the meaning would extend to bartering, in a sense. If you think of those cultures where in the markets there's a very lively exchange between vendor and buyer it can be a very 58 thing, lots of words and hand gestures, smiling, shaking of heads. 58 is expressive to others and that can be expression of sadness as well as joy, it's engaging, back and forth. In line 4 there is this market like 'haggling' going on and so there's the question along the lines of 'is this the best I can get for this price...what can you give it me for, will I do better at the next stall or not...'. If your question is being answered directly about how long they will be together for long, well they might be but currently it would seem they are still haggling, metaphorically speaking, over whether they are getting the best deal with one another. This is fine, it's what people do, they evaluate the worth of others to them in order to decide whether to buy/commit.

As long as this haggling goes on there's discontent and some unease, it says 'not yet at rest' and Yi says 'set a limit on it', put an end to all these comparisons. Reminds me of buying things when one cannot decide whether to buy this coat or that coat and that's the kind of 'not yet at rest' that is meant here, it's the affliction of not making one's mind up. I mean it's not awful but if you ever experienced rather stressful indecision over purchases you'll know it's actually a relief to make a choice ! If I take the answer as directly answering your exact question then I'd say they may still be weighing one another up, not totally committed yet. It doesn't say whether they will or won't decide to be committed.

But remember most of the time Yi is talking straight to us even when we ask about others. Therefore this might be advice to you. Yi might have skipped your question and gone straight to the heart of the matter which is your heartbreak, your disappointment and most importantly that feeling you missed out. Now I think as this line has so much to do with worry and fear over how we might miss out or how we missed out, I've had this line for that kind of feeling many times, it could well be giving you the advice to end the back and forth in your mind over 'if I'd done this then this would have happened'...Yi is saying stop doing that, soon, and you really will feel pretty good again. As long as you keep on haggling, weighing up trying to make an evaluation you'll feel unrest. The good news is Yi is saying you can stop this back and forth in your mind. You think you didn't get her because of a mistake you made but it's probably not exactly like that anyway. So if I take this answer as directly to you and the pain you are in Yi is basically advising to put an end to these 'haggling' thoughts. The market analogy applies again. What if you missed out on a good deal one day and you're kicking ourselves for not haggling effectively ? What advice would you give a friend who was gutted he'd missed a good deal on something and it was bugging him ? I think you might tell him to just write it off as one of those things you wouldn't want to see him kicking himself over it for weeks....

So I've looked it at as a direct and less direct answer and actually there may be truth in both it's not an either/or here I don't think. They could well be still weighing each other up and however happy they look together publicly you don't know what is really going on. You could be engaging in self torture over a missed deal which Yi is advising you to end.

The 60 here is the limit that is referred to in the line. So the 60 isn't a whole separate part of the answer it's right there, part of the line. 58 is open, sharing, expansive and 60 is all about measure and limits so here this back and forth, this haggling, is needing to end to bring peace. And this open engagement can be with one's own thought processes, that back and forth haggling we do when we are afraid we missed out ...indeed I have said before 58.4 is the line of FOMO 'fear of missing out'. That's something to bring to a close here.

 

[Extevan]

I don't think the word 'usurpation' is there at all, probably you got it from someone's commentary so it's their word not the I Ching's.

If I take the answer as answering your question very directly then I'd say things aren't 100% settled between them. 58 is to do with open exchange, joy in sharing, delights that make one forget hardship. In line 4 there's a niggle that mars all this

58.4 says

'Haggling opening, not yet at rest.
Putting limits on the affliction brings rejoicing.'

As well as 58 being to do with sharing, joy the meaning would extend to bartering, in a sense. If you think of those cultures where in the markets there's a very lively exchange between vendor and buyer it can be a very 58 thing, lots of words and hand gestures, smiling, shaking of heads. 58 is expressive to others and that can be expression of sadness as well as joy, it's engaging, back and forth. In line 4 there is this market like 'haggling' going on and so there's the question along the lines of 'is this the best I can get for this price...what can you give it me for, will I do better at the next stall or not...'. If your question is being answered directly about how long they will be together for long, well they might be but currently it would seem they are still haggling, metaphorically speaking, over whether they are getting the best deal with one another. This is fine, it's what people do, they evaluate the worth of others to them in order to decide whether to buy/commit.

As long as this haggling goes on there's discontent and some unease, it says 'not yet at rest' and Yi says 'set a limit on it', put an end to all these comparisons. Reminds me of buying things when one cannot decide whether to buy this coat or that coat and that's the kind of 'not yet at rest' that is meant here, it's the affliction of not making one's mind up. I mean it's not awful but if you ever experienced rather stressful indecision over purchases you'll know it's actually a relief to make a choice ! If I take the answer as directly answering your exact question then I'd say they may still be weighing one another up, not totally committed yet. It doesn't say whether they will or won't decide to be committed.

But remember most of the time Yi is talking straight to us even when we ask about others. Therefore this might be advice to you. Yi might have skipped your question and gone straight to the heart of the matter which is your heartbreak, your disappointment and most importantly that feeling you missed out. Now I think as this line has so much to do with worry and fear over how we might miss out or how we missed out, I've had this line for that kind of feeling many times, it could well be giving you the advice to end the back and forth in your mind over 'if I'd done this then this would have happened'...Yi is saying stop doing that, soon, and you really will feel pretty good again. As long as you keep on haggling, weighing up trying to make an evaluation you'll feel unrest. The good news is Yi is saying you can stop this back and forth in your mind. You think you didn't get her because of a mistake you made but it's probably not exactly like that anyway. So if I take this answer as directly to you and the pain you are in Yi is basically advising to put an end to these 'haggling' thoughts. The market analogy applies again. What if you missed out on a good deal one day and you're kicking ourselves for not haggling effectively ? What advice would you give a friend who was gutted he'd missed a good deal on something and it was bugging him ? I think you might tell him to just write it off as one of those things you wouldn't want to see him kicking himself over it for weeks....

So I've looked it at as a direct and less direct answer and actually there may be truth in both it's not an either/or here I don't think. They could well be still weighing each other up and however happy they look together publicly you don't know what is really going on. You could be engaging in self torture over a missed deal which Yi is advising you to end.

The 60 here is the limit that is referred to in the line. So the 60 isn't a whole separate part of the answer it's right there, part of the line. 58 is open, sharing, expansive and 60 is all about measure and limits so here this back and forth, this haggling, is needing to end to bring peace. And this open engagement can be with one's own thought processes, that back and forth haggling we do when we are afraid we missed out ...indeed I have said before 58.4 is the line of FOMO 'fear of missing out'. That's something to bring to a close here.

Thank you sooo much for your thorough answer. I am gonna read it again several times because it resonates with what has emerged within me while looking at the hex and changing lines. It's probably a double meaning answer, like you say.

I have no doubt about the fact that this pain is killing me and I myself would advice anybody else to quit "haggling" the what ifs. But I really can't. I tried in many ways over months. I need to gain some insight as to why this happened. And really know if it would have been as I imagined had it gone the other way. Also if there's no chance for us to be together in the future. I know there's a lot of selfishness involved, but I also realized I ended up being in this situation due to a total lack of healthy selfishness and care for my own legitimate interests.

You think there's a way to formulate this enquires in order to get answers that could at least quench my excruciating doubts?

Thank you for your caring answers.

 

[Trojina]

You think there's a way to formulate this enquires in order to get answers that could at least quench my excruciating doubts?

I don't know what you mean? No, there aren't answers that will extinguish all doubts especially in relationship questions and other people's at that...

I don't know what doubts you mean but if it is self torturing doubts I think you have had a fairly clear response from Yi and the rest is down to you.

The most you can do, and I'm talking mundanely here without reference to Yi, is let her know you are still interested should she change her mind. I don't know how you'd do that without upsetting her boyfriend but I mean presumably she does know you are interested. Other than that you have to accept she's with him, for now at least.

I need to gain some insight as to why this happened.

Do you ? I'm not sure it will help and your answer has advised you to stop weighing it up. I don't know if you mean 'why it happened' from her pov or why it happened. I guess it all boils down to her point of view and only she can tell you that. Consider she may be far less malleable than you think, it's rarely one action or one specific thing that determines who someone chooses to walk away from. What if she just likes him better ? When I say 'less malleable' I mean you can't influence her as much as you might think by your actions. Sometimes people just seem to like other people better than us....hence all the sad love songs

 

[Extevan]

I don't know what you mean? No, there aren't answers that will extinguish all doubts especially in relationship questions and other people's at that...

I don't know what doubts you mean but if it is self torturing doubts I think you have had a fairly clear response from Yi and the rest is down to you.

The most you can do, and I'm talking mundanely here without reference to Yi, is let her know you are still interested should she change her mind. I don't know how you'd do that without upsetting her boyfriend but I mean presumably she does know you are interested. Other than that you have to accept she's with him, for now at least.

Do you ? I'm not sure it will help and your answer has advised you to stop weighing it up. I don't know if you mean 'why it happened' from her pov or why it happened. I guess it all boils down to her point of view and only she can tell you that. Consider she may be far less malleable than you think, it's rarely one action or one specific thing that determines who someone chooses to walk away from. What if she just likes him better ? When I say 'less malleable' I mean you can't influence her as much as you might think by your actions. Sometimes people just seem to like other people better than us....hence all the sad love songs

I know answers cannot be definitive with the Iching (or any other source of answers for that matter). I was trying to come up with a question that could put my thoughts at rest to the best degree possible. I am looking for suggestions for such questions exactly because many question that arise in my mind are at risk of producing more doubt than solving it. This why I ask for support of other "enquiring minds".

I am not in the position to reveal my feelings completely to her as at this moment the channel of communication is obstructed by distance in many ways. It would unnecessarily weird to force it in such a way...

The insight I need is related to the very peculiar circumstances that have generated this situation. It was not like she had me and him in front of her and she choose him over me. I could live with that. Is more like that there was a real chasm between two possible worlds once a wrong decision has been made on my part. She could have come live with me in a different part of the country upon her arrival here, making it impossible to know the other guy. The two possible paths had such different characteristics that are not comparable.

It's hard to explain but this is a very unusual situation. In this case that very single one action has created this outcome in a very heavy ripple effect.That's why I am so confused about anything I could even possibly ask.

I am open to any suggestion and grateful for the input already given .

 

[my_key]

Needing some kind of answer to understand and soothe my pain I asked the Iching if she found in this guy the love of her life and if they will be together for long.

I got 58.4 > 60.

You may find difficulty gaining deep insight into this as you have asked 2 different questions here.

58 <> 60
'Joyful' through 'Articulating the Crossing'

What she has found in relationship with this other person is that there is a greater element of give and take and that she finds in this a freedom to better express herself. The relationship she finds with him speaks to an inner truth (58). The context in how she sees the relationship (60) is that she is more clearly and easily able to recognise the different ways that she can flex and express herself within this relationship. This provides a new model of being for her and that is one that she highly values living within for now.

58.4 - Speaks to her commitment to finding the right road for her, particularly with how she reacts to and copes with negative influences in her world. She seeks greater harmony and is happy just exploring something greater than she had before.

While you have already been offered a range of insightful interpretations I hope this gives you further insights into the very peculiar circumstances that have generated this unusual situation for you.

... or you might find different interpretations that resonate with you more than this one,

Good Luck

 

[Extevan]

You may find difficulty gaining deep insight into this as you have asked 2 different questions here.

58 <> 60
'Joyful' through 'Articulating the Crossing'

What she has found in relationship with this other person is that there is a greater element of give and take and that she finds in this a freedom to better express herself. The relationship she finds with him speaks to an inner truth (58). The context in how she sees the relationship (60) is that she is more clearly and easily able to recognise the different ways that she can flex and express herself within this relationship. This provides a new model of being for her and that is one that she highly values living within for now.

58.4 - Speaks to her commitment to finding the right road for her, particularly with how she reacts to and copes with negative influences in her world. She seeks greater harmony and is happy just exploring something greater than she had before.

While you have already been offered a range of insightful interpretations I hope this gives you further insights into the very peculiar circumstances that have generated this unusual situation for you.

... or you might find different interpretations that resonate with you more than this one,

Good Luck

Thank you. So what you mean in laymen's terms is that she is happy in this relationship and will stay in it..?

 

[Extevan]

So the further question I really wanted to ask came to mind clearly. The question is: would she be in a relationship with me now if I had made another choice (hence following the the other path).

I got 32 unchanging.

I read 32 it's about continuity perseverance, and in romance is identified as a signal of a lasting relationship. So I can't think think otherwise then yes, we would have been together in a solid way. And it's heart-wrenching to me.

You got any other interpretrations for this result?

 

[rosada]

Another interpretation for 32uc here could be that the I Ching is saying we are always and forever in relationship to everything and everyone…

Not a comforting response but the I Ching already gave you a clear and firm answer when you asked your first question about whether this fellow and she would be together long and 58.4 advised you not to keep torturing yourself asking about what might have been. So perhaps now you’re getting some of the old hexagram 4 treatment, “If he asks two or three times I give him no information...”

Maybe ask a brand new question like where to put your focus now to assist you in forwarding into the future?

Meanwhile I highly recommend the movie Swingers for fast forwarding recovery!

 

[rosada]

thinking more about this…

I wonder if it would be helpful for you to ask the I Ching for advice on how to view this experience so as to be able to grow from it? And also maybe let it be known that you would prefer that in the future your life lessons be presented in ways a tad less brutal?

 

[Extevan]

Another interpretation for 32uc here could be that the I Ching is saying we are always and forever in relationship to everything and everyone…

Not a comforting response but the I Ching already gave you a clear and firm answer when you asked your first question about whether this fellow and she would be together long and 58.4 advised you not to keep torturing yourself asking about what might have been. So perhaps now you’re getting some of the old hexagram 4 treatment, “If he asks two or three times I give him no information...”

Maybe ask a brand new question like where to put your focus now to assist you in forwarding into the future?

Meanwhile I highly recommend the movie Swingers for fast forwarding recovery!

Thank you. The question you suggest to ask about the attitude for the future makes sense. I will ask it.

Your interpretation of the 32 hex is valid imo, but a resonates with me being too generic. I know it might be a way to say don’t dwell on this no more.

But my interpretation is the more “standard” one and more obvious for hex 32 regarding relationships, isn’t it? Or it doesn’t make sense at all?

 

[my_key]

So the further question I really wanted to ask came to mind clearly. The question is: would she be in a relationship with me now if I had made another choice (hence following the the other path).

I got 32 unchanging.

32 speaks to the everlasting dance between light and dark, yang and yin and not just 'standard' relationship. In 32 the core essence derives from the nuclear 43 'Deciding and Parting'. Hence what is persevering in 32 is change and the infinite tug towards opportunity for self renewal. All choices are made in tune with the tug of that time and this determines the path. Sometimes we choose which tug to follow, sometimes others choose their tug: such is life.

As @rosada correctly pointed out; you are still in a relationship with her. It is more distant and is not in a form of that you like, however it is still a relationship that is persevering.

You chose to follow a tug that meant a parting of the ways. 32 advocates that you stand steadfast and do not alter your aim. What were you aiming at when following your 'tug'?

Good Luck

 

[Extevan]

32 speaks to the everlasting dance between light and dark, yang and yin and not just 'standard' relationship. In 32 the core essence derives from the nuclear 43 'Deciding and Parting'. Hence what is persevering in 32 is change and the infinite tug towards opportunity for self renewal. All choices are made in tune with the tug of that time and this determines the path. Sometimes we choose which tug to follow, sometimes others choose their tug: such is life.

As @rosada correctly pointed out; you are still in a relationship with her. It is more distant and is not in a form of that you like, however it is still a relationship that is persevering.

You chose to follow a tug that meant a parting of the ways. 32 advocates that you stand steadfast and do not alter your aim. What were you aiming at when following your 'tug'?

Good Luck

Thank you for input. I read it several times to see what made arise in me.

I am definitely still in a relationship with her. On my part only. Is this what you meant? Or in your interpretation the relationship is still somehow two way?

I am certain at this point that the tug I followed was fear stemmed by trauma, resulting into auto-sabotage. I didn't gain anything out of this but sorrow. How could it possibly be an aim not to be altered?

 

[my_key]

Thank you for input. I read it several times to see what made arise in me.

I am definitely still in a relationship with her. On my part only. Is this what you meant? Or in your interpretation the relationship is still somehow two way?

It's time you looked at what it all means for you rather than what I mean. This will be your most freeing opportunity for self renewal.

I am certain at this point that the tug I followed was fear stemmed by trauma, resulting into auto-sabotage. I didn't gain anything out of this but sorrow. How could it possibly be an aim not to be altered?

Keep walking along the rainbow path of sorrow and you'll eventually find the pot of gold that you were looking for when you took the first step.

Good Luck