63.4 and the uses of silk

[rodaki]

I've been reading up on this line recently and I've seen how most authors see the use of silk to plug the leaks as a sign of the decaying of the situation, entropy or even, a desperate attempt to save one's boat even at the expense of some high expectations

But, there's another thought that has crept in my mind reading the commentaries. Silk is known to be one of the strongest natural fibre, a fact that I don;t think the Chinese would be ignorant of . . It can't be by coincidence that in line 12.5, the stagnation is overcome by tying our efforts to the mulberry tree, whose leaves are also known as the silkworms' preferred food. Some of silk's properties are quoted as follows:

Silk is one of the popular fabrics for apparel because of its unique properties. Silk is most luxurious fabric, the most comfortable fabric, the most absorbent of fabrics (equal to wool), the best fabric for drape, the best fabric for color, capable of the greatest lustre, having the finest "hand" etc. These are some of the factors which make the fabric more popular. The fabric is cool in summer and warm in winter.

Strength: Silk as a fibre, has good tensile strength, which allows it to withstand great pulling pressure. Silk is the strongest natural fibre and has moderate abrasion resistance.

Resilience: Silk fabrics retain their shape and have moderate resistance to wrinkling. Fabrics that are made from short – staple spun silk have less resilience.

Absorbency: Silk fabrics being protein in nature have good absorbency. The absorptive capacity of the silk fabric makes comfortable apparel even for warmer atmosphere. Fabrics made from silk are comfortable in the summer and warm in the winter. Silk fibre can generally absorb about 11 percent of its weight in moisture, but the range varies from 10 percent to as much as 30 percent. This property is also a major factor in silk’s ability to be printed and dyed easily.

Read more: http://textilelearner.blogspot.com/2011/08/characteristics-of-silk-fabrics_5368.html#ixzz33W2ZC9WO

Putting all this together, makes silk look like a very well thought choice of material to mend what might have been broken down or decayed. But there's also more than that, linking silk to the relating hx of 49, ie that silk is often the byproduct of the pupa stage of the biological process of 'complete metamorfism' (or 'holometabolism'). More specifically, according to wikipedia's article:

Many silks are mainly produced by the larvae of insects undergoing complete metamorphosis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silk

Now, could it be that the use of silk in 63.4 hides more potential other than that of a luxurious garment that has worn out and is used indiscriminately? Could it be, for example, that the attention needed in 63.4 is not because the silk plugs will soon disintegrate but because they are the ones that will complete the hexagram's final stage, either due to strength, or to their capacity to carry forth future potential?
I just have the sense that the line's meaning includes here advice on how to move along with, or even, prepare for, a radical change that will keep the balance going, instead of just protecting ourselves from it, or averting it altogether . . . what do you think?

 

[sooo]

Ah, the Cinderella line.

 

[charly]

... Could it be, for example, that the attention needed in 63.4 is not because the silk plugs will soon disintegrate but because they are the ones that will complete the hexagram's final stage, either due to strength, or to their capacity to carry forth future potential?
I just have the sense that the line's meaning includes here advice on how to move along with, or even, prepare for, a radical change that will keep the balance going, instead of just protecting ourselves from it, or averting it altogether . . . what do you think?

Hi, Dora:

Like it too much. I believe that is a good idea to see SILK = METAMORPHOSIS.

63.4 says more or less : FINE-SILK HAS CLOTHES RAGS. END DAY GUARD (AGAINST).

I believe that the sense is fine silk has te appearance of rags, the clothes that fine silk bears are poor. Say fine silk came in the cocoon. The advice: we must look for the worthy under poor appearances.

Or in bad times look for the good consequences that can be traced. Good times can end badly, but that is never the end, things will change.

H.63 said ALREADY CROSSED (THE RIVER) FEAST. BEGINING LUCKY, END CRAZY.

As you know, in hard translations I always look for hidden meanings, deep symbols and the like, and one of the layers of H.63 meanings are related with SEX, but that´s another story


All the best,

Charly

P.D.:
Attached image gone by error.
Ch.

 

[sooo]

I've only conformed to the plugging leaking hulls with ones fine silks in more recent years, pretty much because I respect the writers who translate it this way. Maybe we tend to make happen what we expect, and so that attributed meaning either seemed to fit my situation or else I just made it fit. But before that, and still my most immediate reaction to the line is a more of am immediate warning to heed my impulsive and creative actions and any carelessly spoken words. Perhaps this is due to my only practical association and use of silk having been in wearing a wide and handsome variety of silk ties to give power and style to an otherwise conservative business suit, hence the common term "power tie" was used. And, since these ties were expensive, they were considered an investment in my career, as my status grew, I'd wear nothing other than either Italian silk or English Briar silk ties. Also as a rule the expression in business management was "nearer to the top, closer to the door" was only too true. The first to go during an economic downturn is middle and upper management, and so silk tuning to rags was only too real of a metaphor for being conservative and cautious during the completion of a growth cycle, which typically ran in three year cycles. One could not continue to ride along on ones reputation for a miraculous turn around but instead had to estimate more carefully how to proceed safely through the course of a more conservative economy for corporate growth, or at least stability. Being careful lest ones silk ties turn to meaningless, useless rags was only too true, literally. They're great for ambitious periods of growth but once completion of cyclic goals have been reached, they mean nothing, other than 'perhaps we're paying this manager too much money.' The time of making impressions come to a standstill; during the time to keep the boat afloat, it's best to keep ones fine suits and ties in ones closet, and to dress as one of the line soldiers and spend more time in the trenches has come. It's a time to silence ones complaints or ask for a raise. A time for all hands on deck and all to get their hands dirty in the nitty grit of keeping the boat afloat and moving forward.

 

[hmesker]

I've been reading up on this line recently and I've seen how most authors see the use of silk to plug the leaks

We have Wang Bi to thank for that. 繻 means 'silk of many colours and/or fine quality'. But Wang says,

繻宜曰濡​

'繻 should be read as 濡.'​

Wang says that 繻 should be read as 濡, 'damp, moist', or 'leakage' if you want. But Wang is they only one who says that (he was probably inspired by the upper trigram Water), there are no other books in which 濡 is read as 繻. And personally I find it far-fetched and unnecessary to read it like this. We can read 繻 in its original meaning of 'silk of many colours and/or fine quality'. The line text says

繻有衣袽

Yi 衣 means 'clothes', ru 袽 means 'old, ragged cotton cloth'. This would make the translation 'The fine clothes have old ragged clothes'. In better English: 'between the fine clothes are old ragged clothes'.

 

[sooo]

Yi 衣 means 'clothes', ru 袽 means 'old, ragged cotton cloth'. This would make the translation 'The fine clothes have old ragged clothes'. In better English: 'between the fine clothes are old ragged clothes'.

So, this is why grandma always said to wear clean underwear without holes, just in case I was in an accident and taken to the hospital!

 

[charly]

And, Bruce, accidents are more frequent at the end of the day, with little light. Beware with the day end.

Charly

 

[charly]

...
Yi 衣 means 'clothes', ru 袽 means 'old, ragged cotton cloth'. This would make the translation 'The fine clothes have old ragged clothes'. In better English: 'between the fine clothes are old ragged clothes'.

Hi, Harmen:

I wonder what´s the connection with the Legge´s story of the boat or else if the story was invented for covering something.

What about this possibility?

Fine-Silk had to clothe rags. Beware of the day end.​

Fine-Silk being the name of a lady, the line migth describe a story of RAPE and VIOLENCE, or even a NIGTH OF PASSION.

A disgusting story. Maybe the BOAT was introducing for tracing a better moral

A young aristocratic LADY goes in a BOAT led by a poor young BOY.
In the middle of the RIVER the boat gets a BREACH.

The BOY´s reasoning:
1) If we don´t find some BURLAP, both will die. (1)
2) If I put my POOR clothes the River´s God will get upset and both will die too.
3) If you put your FINE clothes the River´s God will be grateful, being VIRGIN you will become his WIFE, only will survive myself.
4) If YOU put your clothes and give your virginity to ME, the River´s God will be grateful but will not take you as wife and BOTH of us will survive.

The girl´s reasoning:
1) If I put my FINE clothes the River´s God will be grateful only with ME, YOU will not survive.
2) You are TOO YOUNG and must not die, said the girl
3) I´m FORCED to sacrify my virtue and to accept the last alternative.

And so was that they became husband and wife.

No so disgusting and a good moral at least:

1) The BOY was SMART, MODEST and GENTLE.
2) The GIRL only sacrified her virtue for GENEROSITY.
3) NOBODY said that the River´s God was an uggly spirit.
4) Last but no less important, the BOAT is an old METHAPHOR ... But that´s another story.


Yours,

Charly
_____________________________
(1) Vinogradoff (Le silence de láiguille) translates 袽, rags, as «'étoupe» BURLAP.
Ch.

 

[rodaki]

So, this is why grandma always said to wear clean underwear without holes, just in case I was in an accident and taken to the hospital!

( I think I can 'see' your grandma nodding her head emphatically there, Bruce - yup!)


Thanks you guys for all your feedback here - you' ve given me lots to work with!

To Charly and Harmen: the back-to-basics translation stuff was part of what I was looking for to see if the whole hypothesis here held any water (so to speak! ). So, while silk is still in place, pugs, leaks etc are probably not there at all, to begin with and the line talks about fine silk clothes, and old ragged ones

Charly I like what you wrote before too much too . . could be that silk clothes have the appearance of ragged ones, maybe not rich in appearance, but maybe also too worn out to hold out or be worn, so time for a change?? I also like the cocoon idea but not sure what you had in mind; it could go either that metamorphosis is complete and the pupa has fled the coop - on to new things!- or, maybe, time to unravel the cocoon and use its threads and scraps to make fine clothes? (not very sure if that still holds . .)


And then there's the part where material, comes again, into view . . Harmen, you said that ru 袽 also refers to cotton cloth, which makes me ask, could we translate the line as
'mending the old cotton clothes with fine silk ones'

or perhaps, not even 'mending', but
'replacing the old worn cotton clothes with silk ones'?


From a different pov, there could be sth like
'amidst the silk-clothed are ragged cotton-clothed ones',
which makes some sense if we see 49 as a re-shuffling of cards on a social level . .


Or, even, it might go down as: '
you got silk clothes and old cotton ones, know where to wear/place/use each',
since 63 seems to be also about putting things in their appropriate places . .




This whole thing feels like trying new clothes . . (not the emperor's ones too, I hope! )
I'm trying to make sense what the meaning of this line is as it was part for a reading of mine about finding my way towards an outcome I'm wishing for . . The 'leaky' translation did make some sense in the context, metamorphosis even more so, but then, this new image I still have to find how it fits my question . . It's like what Bruce kinda hinted at:

Maybe we tend to make happen what we expect, and so that attributed meaning either seemed to fit my situation or else I just made it fit

I can see a meaning because I'm finding it fits, but how true is it? Which, is, of course a natural condition for divination, since we're not looking for objective truths, but rather, for the more refined expression of our subjective ones, which can be a tricky area . . It's like what I have read from an astrologer doing horary, who began her career on astrology based on a reading, that, when, years later she looked into, again, she realized that the chart she had based some heavy life decisions, was, literally, non-existent . . She had made a mistake in calculating the specifics and drawing the chart by hand and what she had read was not 'really' there - yet her reading was, turned out to be, in fact, correct!


. . but I digress . . let's get back in line here
Would any of the above highlighted versions seem correct in terms of translation OR interpretation to all of you out there who devote your time and energy to understanding what the chinese old man is trying to say???

 

[rodaki]

ah! Charly, I missed your new extended post, will get right into it
(oh and btw, about looking into lines for hidden meanings . . don't we all, in our own ways?? )


be back soon!

 

[rodaki]

. . and just read your post Charly: not sure if it fits my story in any way (hopefully my ship won't go down and I won't have to live on rags, and I do stress hopefully) but thanks for sharing it

 

[hmesker]

Hi, Harmen:

I wonder what´s the connection with the Legge´s story of the boat or else if the story was invented for covering something.

I don't see an 'invented story', I only see what Wang Bi said.

What about this possibility?

Fine-Silk had to clothe rags. Beware of the day end.​

Fine-Silk being the name of a lady, the line migth describe a story of RAPE and VIOLENCE, or even a NIGTH OF PASSION.

Ehrm.... no. You're fantasising too much. You see things that aren't even remotely connected to the text.

Harmen, you said that ru 袽 also refers to cotton cloth, which makes me ask, could we translate the line as 'mending the old cotton clothes with fine silk ones'

No, there is no 'mending' in the text.

or perhaps, not even 'mending', but 'replacing the old worn cotton clothes with silk ones'?

No, there is no 'replacing' in the text.

From a different pov, there could be sth like 'amidst the silk-clothed are ragged cotton-clothed ones',

Yes, I think that is the best option.

I'm trying to make sense what the meaning of this line is as it was part for a reading of mine

I always imagined a story like this with this line (see http://www.yjcn.nl/wp/wet-clothes/)

When a new dynasty was established the whole apparatus of ministers and other officials was taken over from the former dynasty. Most men promised loyalty to the new emperor and therefore where assured of their position. It was impossible for the new emperor to replace every single person, better it was to use experienced people of whom you knew they were up to their task. And as an official you had the choice between cooperation or a horrible death. But the emperor was not mad (not always). Promising loyalty to the emperor is one thing, to carry it out is something different. The emperor had to find betrayers who were still loyal to the old dynasty and could plan a revolt. When the emperor wondered if his ministry contained traitors and he consulted the Yi about this, he might get the answer ‘between the beautiful (=new) clothes are worn out (=old) clothes. Be careful all day long’. With such an answer the emperor knew what to do.

 

[charly]

I don't see an 'invented story', I only see what Wang Bi said.

...

[Charly:]I wonder what´s the connection with the Legge´s story of the boat or else if the story was invented for covering something.
[Harmen:]I don't see an 'invented story', I only see what Wang Bi said.

I was speaking of Legge´s or another translations that avoid to speak of SILK at all, being hat it is in the chinese text and insert a BOAT that is not in the text. I wonder what happened in their MINDS: maybe the boat, an image of FEMALE GENITALIA, said by Lin Yutang, was an unconscious return of the first repressed idea given that silk has a SEXUAL connotation for the cocoon...

... serves as a ribald sexual emblem, since the word for the prolific cocoon silk (ssu)[SI] is a pun for sexual desire (ssu) [SI].

Anne Birrell: Chinese Mythology: An Introduction, page 199 Metamorphosis - The Silkworm Horse
Seeable at Google Books

And in the chinese MYTH of the origin of SILK there was indeed a story of ABUSE and VIOLENCE.

[Charly:]What about this possibility?
Fine-Silk had to clothe rags. Beware of the day end.
Fine-Silk being the name of a lady, the line migth describe a story of RAPE and VIOLENCE, or even a NIGTH OF PASSION.
[Harmen:]Ehrm.... no. You're fantasising too much. You see things that aren't even remotely connected to the text.

About the text:
I was asking about the possibility of turning the LITERAL translation

FINE-SILK HAS CLOTHING RAGS
were the advice can be DON´T SHOW YOUR DEFECTS BEHIND YOUR FINE APPEARANCES.
Say, nobody´s perfect.​

... into another were the charater cloth be more active like a verb (TO CLOTHE) becoming the subject an actor.

About the ideas:
Maybe the story (based on the second translation) is too fanciful but CONNECTIONS exist in the mind of the writer and/or the mind of the reader, texts can provide connections or not. But what about the translation? And what about the end of the day vs. all day long?

Yours,

Charly

 

[rodaki]

hey everyone,

my apologies for the late reply - it's exam season over here, which can make any schedule go unexpectedly awry . . in the meantime, all your replies had ample tim to simmer and stew in the back burner


Harmen, I've more than enjoyed reading your blogpost - it does make for a great fit for my reading and questions in general!!
Too bad I only subscribed to your blog now

My reading did, in fact, concern a 'revolution' of sorts, an important change in the way things stand now and the thought of the cotton-clothed guards of the old ways . . yes, I can definitely see how I need to keep an eye on them. In a way it is like trying to open up new pathways in the brain, new habits, new ways of perceiving and, till the new order is established, the old habits will persist in going about their old ways.
At first I was more keen on seeing these figures as vital parts but, as the reading took hold in my thoughts, I find myself seeing them only as important for the transition period - just as so that the change is done in stages, securing its foothold.

Perhaps the ragged ones can also serve as examples of what has gone wrong before, to help protect from similar mistakes - I'm reminded of a saying someone had once mentioned they have in spanish: learning off the head of another(?) or something like that, learning from the mistakes of generations before us .. I'll be keeping that in mind too, going forward.


thanks again to all and everyone who participated!
:bows: