A 64 cards I Ching deck

[remod]

Here is how it would look like (but, remember, everything is provisional! I'll change things depending on your feedback).

Look at the small dots at the bottom of the cards on the right. if they are red, it's a changing line.
This would be 6.1.3.6



I might redo the design so that the dots are easier to spot. For now, I would like to hear from you what you think about this method (one card to get the hexagram and six cards to determine the moving lines).
The probabilities for moving line are extremely close (almost identical) to the three coins one.

 

[Liselle]

I think the backs are pretty, for what that's worth. (I'm incapable of thinking straight about probababilities even on a good day, and today has worn me out, so I have zero comments other than that.)

 

[remod]

I think the backs are pretty, for what that's worth. (I'm incapable of thinking straight about probababilities even on a good day, and today has worn me out, so I have zero comments other than that.)

Thanks, Liselle.

Math and probabilities are not an issue, I can analyze them by myself.

What I can't do by myself is objectively judging the appeal that such methods may have. Both from a usability perspective and aesthetic qualities (if any ).

Your comments are a great help to me.

 

[remod]

For those interested, using the back of the cards to get the moving lines have the following probabilities:



Whereas with three coins or the yarrow stalks, the probability to get a moving line is 25% for any line.
In other words, is 1% to 2% less likely to get moving lines in the upper trigram.

Would you consider this relevant?

 

[remod]

P.S. Actually I should have used a weighted average, not a normal average. If I did it, it would even be closer to be 25% for each line ...

 

[Susebells]

One thing I always find difficult, is to decide on the back of the card.
Is this one too intricate? Maybe something simpler would fit better?

View attachment 5082

I find this stunningly beautiful- form folding and merging with form and framed solidly with jet black! What a dance!!

 

[rosada]

Hi remod,
Finally getting back here after being without the internet for a few days - Thunder and Wind caused a neighbor’s tree to fall over and take out the power line.
Anyway, I agree. 42 is not a time for battling the elements. In fact the message seems to be about gently aligning and trusting the natural ebb and flow. So cancel my suggestion to have the 42. Increase illustration be a picture of a sea captain trying to cross the great river in the face of an opposing wind. Actually, the wind element should probably be depicted as supportive - like a sea captain taking goods across the ocean in a sailing ship whose sails are filled with a gentle wind blowing him to the far shore. My problem was I was focusing on the just the advice of the Image - having a goal and crossing the great water - rather than depicting the total meaning of the hexagram. So what is the total meaning of 42.? When you study the pair - 41. Decrease/42. Increase - the lesson seems to be that if one can empty themselves of all that is not good for them (perhaps 41. would be better called Release) then one will naturally attract what is right for them. Sort of like you must first exhale the used up air and then you automatically inhale the fresh air. Then the lines progress to emphasizing that one should use the increase to help others - sort of a “The more you give [decrease] the you get [increase].” situation. Not sure how that all could be illustrated in one picture on a card… Maybe if you think in terms of the pictures being like book covers where you show the main character but don’t try to tell the whole story.
Well it will be fun to see what you come up with!

Thinking about how you might come up with change lines. What if you make it your ritual that you shuffle the cards three times, cut them once, and then turn over the top card to be the primary hexagram and then the bottom card to be relating hexagram?

 

[remod]

I find this stunningly beautiful- form folding and merging with form and framed solidly with jet black! What a dance!!

Yes, that was one of my favorite attempts ...
I'm struggling with the overall style of the cards but I definitely aim for something for which this could be appropriate

Thanks!

 

[remod]

Finally getting back here after being without the internet for a few days - Thunder and Wind caused a neighbor’s tree to fall over and take out the power line.

Physical manifestations of such trigrams might be dangerous . Hope everything is ok now!

I'm getting away from my initial idea of using the "Image" text as guide for all the cards. Some of them are far too abstract and, in some cases, not very intuitive when seen in the context of the other elements of the hexagram.

As @Trojina rightly pointed out, there's no way to capture all the fine details of a hexagram meaning into a single image.

But I could try to capture the general "mood" and give the diviner just some hints. If any I will try to err in the direction of vagueness rather than specificity.

I really like your suggestion of possibly looking at hexagrams in pairs, @rosada, I didn't think about it and there are indeed many of such relationships that could be used as a hint. Thank you!!

So, if I got what you mean and keeping 41/42 as an example, 42 may hint at being active in times of abundance to enrich (not necessarily in a physical way) himself and others, while 41 may hint at being content with what one has and, at the same time, providing for those who have even less in time of scarcity. Creating two related images would be great! I'll try for sure.

Thinking about how you might come up with change lines. What if you make it your ritual that you shuffle the cards three times, cut them once, and then turn over the top card to be the primary hexagram and then the bottom card to be relating hexagram?

That is a good option and would be equivalent to using the four "Dutch Sticks".
As I mentioned to @breakmov, I'm thrown off balance by the fact that this method generates double the moving lines than the traditional methods (50% chance against the 25% chance of the traditional methods).
That's why I'm trying to devise something different.
While still thinking of imagery, style, and meaning, let's see if I can nail down the technical aspects of the moving lines for these cards (something, I must confess, I'm better at than imagery ).

 

[Liselle]

Whereas with three coins or the yarrow stalks, the probability to get a moving line is 25% for any line

As I said up above, I'm clueless about this, but here's some clueless questions anyway...
- Don't things have to add up to 100% somehow? How can you have six things and a 24-25% chance of each?
- I don't think line position is what it's figured on, is it? I thought it was moving yin, moving yang, unmoving yin, unmoving yang. I've never seen odds described in terms of position. The odds of a certain line position being moving or not would be different for each hexagram depending on where the yin and yang lines are....I think.....(that sounds like a backwards way of putting it but hopefully you know what I mean).

 

[breakmov]

I don't use a deck of cards anymore, but I just loved the experience, and since I'm a fan of yin/yang patterns, I never saw the excess of lines as something problematic... however I ended up finding out how to solve that "problem" of the excess lines .
I'm always "hesitant" talking about how I resolved the situation when it implies a "big change" in the way the deck of cards is presented (and it was also due to this "big change" that I ended up going to another way of casting the hexagram), however I leave the solution I found... and if it helps for something more efficient, so much the better.
From what you wrote, you experimented with solutions that tend to be close in some details to what I did....

solution to give exact coin probabilities:

1- The deck has to be square, to use the four sides of the cards in the cast.
2-the act of shuffling has to be done in several directions, with rotation... but it is something that gives that zen feeling where we can meditate at length on the truth of the question we intend to ask.
3-remove 6 cards to define the hexagram and 6 more to define if there are lines of change.

Definition of yang lines, yin lines and change lines:

1- use the numbers 1, 2 , 3 and 4 to identify the sides of the cards
2-values 1 and 3 represent yang lines
3- the values 2 and 4 represent yin lines
4-the first group of 6 cards cast the hexagram.
5- change lines are signaled when in the second group of 6 cards there are values equal to those of the first group of cards.

example, taking into account the underside of the cards to signal the lines:

first group of 6 cards second group of 6 cards

yang 1 -------------------------- 3
yang 3 -------------------------- 2
yang 1 -------------------------- 4
yin 2 --------------------------- 4
yang 3 -------------------------- 3
yang 3 -------------------------- 1

cast situation: hex 10.2>25

regarding the presentation of the content of the cards, I always had that hope of seeing a deck of cards with a faint image, as a background but with a text, in the form of memonica, of the 6 lines in order to help "remember" the true text.

I tried to make a powerpoint video to show this new way of casting the hexagram applied to the way I use it, but it got too big and I can't leave it here.







I tried another video, but also too big:




If this stimulates you to new ideas, I'm very happy.

breakmov

 

[remod]

As I said up above, I'm clueless about this, but here's some clueless questions anyway...
- Don't things have to add up to 100% somehow? How can you have six things and a 24-25% chance of each?
- I don't think line position is what it's figured on, is it? I thought it was moving yin, moving yang, unmoving yin, unmoving yang. I've never seen odds described in terms of position. The odds of a certain line position being moving or not would be different for each hexagram depending on where the yin and yang lines are....I think.....(that sounds like a backwards way of putting it but hopefully you know what I mean).

Hi Liselle, I might have rushed things. Let me describe the process thoroughly.

Let's start with your second question. Usually, there is no need to talk about positions (i.e. which line of the hexagram we are casting) because the process is repeated every time from the scratch. The lines we are about to get are not influenced by which lines we have already received.

Using cards without reinserting them, instead, cause the odds of getting a certain line to depend on the previous lines.

To clarify better, imagine you have three regular (poker) cards: one is diamonds and two are spades.
We ask ourselves "what is the probability that the next card is a spade?".
The first time it will be 2/3.
The second time it depends. If you draw a spade, the probability for the next card to be a spade is 50%, if the first card was a diamond, the probability to get a spade card is 100%

In the case of hexagrams there are two questions we are interested in:

1. what is the chance for next line to be yin/yang
2. what is the chance for next line to be moving/stable?

Let's take the three coins method as an example. There are eight possible outcomes:
2+2+2 = 6
2+2+3 = 7
2+3+2 = 7
2+3+3 = 8
3+2+2 = 7
3+2+3 = 8
3+3+2 = 8
3+3+3 = 9

To answer question 1, we see that 4 outcomes lead to yin and 4 outcomes lead to yang, hence there is a 50% probability to get yin and 50% to get yang (4 out of 8)
To answer question 2, we see that only two outcomes represent moving lines meaning that the probability to get a moving line is 2/8=1/4=25%.

Let's try the same with the 64 cards whose back is marked so that 16 of them have a red dot (representing a moving line) and the other 48 cards have a black dot (for an unmoving line). For convenience let's first draw the 6 cards for moving line and use the seventh card as the received hexagram.

Since the probability for any hexagram to be the 7th card of the deck is 1/64, we can answer question 1 saying that, for each line, the probability of getting yin/yang is 50%.

To answer question 2 things are a little bit more complicated.
The first card can represent a moving line with a probability of 16/64=1/4=25%.
The odds for the second card depends on the first card: if we got a moving line the probability is 15/63, if we didn't is 16/63.
The odds for the third card depend on the first two. If we got no moving line the probability is 16/62, if we got one moving line is 15/62 and if we got two moving lines is 14/62.
And so on up to the sixth line. The table summarizes these results.

So, if I mark the back of the cards with 16 red dots and follow the procedure above, I have a method that is very close to the three coins one since the odds to get a yin/yang line is 50% and the probability of getting a moving/unmoving line is (very close to) 25%.

About your first question, I hope is clearer now that the numbers in the table represent the probability of a line to be a changing line, regardless if they are yin or yang lines. (and, hence, they do not have to sum up to 100%)

I hope I managed to clarify what I meant. If not, please let me know and I'll retry to explain it in a different way.

 

[remod]

@breakmov, these are very nice methods!

Probability-wise they are identical to the three coins method. You get yin/yang with 50% and moving/unmoving with 25% probability.

For square cards, there are options to use only two of them. The method shown here is set up for yarrow stalks probabilities but one can mark the sides with (3,4,4,3) on one card and (3,4,4,5) on the other to get the three coins probabilities. But I can think of many other ways, square cards are very versatile!

I like the chain with dice a lot! Even for that one, there is a way to use only two connected dice, again they can be marked differently to obtain yarrow stalks or three coins probabilities.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[breakmov]

Do you look at any hexagram cast method from the point of view of how practical and easy it is? A method that allows us to interact and create a zen state where it is possible to establish a state of meditation related to the search for the question and then, quickly and simply, allow the cast of the hexagram, as a whole, to appear spontaneously.
-This is possible in the case of drawing the 6 cards or with the device that I presented.

from #1:

Anything is provisional, from the font to the image style, to the fact that I want to add a way to properly cast hexagram (is it really a good idea?) so, please, feel free to comment on anything.

In the case of rectangular cards and taking advantage of only the long sides, it is also possible to obtain the odds of the coins, but now using the back and reverse of the long side cards, but it is not so practical:

- put two numbers on each long side of the card.
- define a sector of the card, for example the number in the lower right quarter, to show whether the line is yin or yang
- compares with the same sector of the next card, to see if the line changes.
- when shuffling the cards, you would have to do it including taking care to turn the cards over to also allow the back and reverse of the cards to be shuffled

In my device , despite presenting points close to the model with two dices that you created, or in the case of the "Dutch Sticks", this version allows us to create the hexagram in a simple and instantaneous way:

-Each dice is delimited to its position, with only free rotation on itself, and independent of the others.
- the "random generator" is the act of turning and shufling this "fidget device" inside your hand, while you meditate on the question.
- the simple act of placing the device down allows each line of the hexagram to appear sequentially and instantly from the first to the sixth line.

Returning to the theme of the deck of cards, I think that the option I left for the rectangular deck solves the "problem" of probabilities...
Regarding the image, have you consider a common theme linked to the "two stars of Yi", heaven and Earth ?

breakmov

 

[Liselle]

Thanks for explaining, Remod. It'll take me some time to wade through it.

 

[remod]

Do you look at any hexagram cast method from the point of view of how practical and easy it is?

This is very interesting, @breakmov.

About the dice, our methods have in common the "fidgeting" aspects, yours is more direct and aimed to get an entire hexagram, mine is just another way of getting the hexagram line by line. I once built one using two real dice (drilled in the middle) connected with a string. The "fidgeting" aspect was very satisfying.

About the square cards, I hope you don't mind if I answered by opening another post, I'd like to keep this thread for the deck with 64 cards (which was not provisional).

Please, let us continue the discussion on decks with a different number of cards there. I'd really like to talk more about them.

 

[remod]

Returning to the theme of the deck of cards, I think that the option I left for the rectangular deck solves the "problem" of probabilitie

For 64 cards I believe it won't be practical. It works splendidly with fewer cards and that's way is the mechanism at the foundation of many of my cards dry. The stamps on this card (front/back);


for example, are used to check whether it is a moving line or not (the nature solid/broken is given by the line appearing in the bottom left side).
I moved away from numbers into a graphical representation exactly to, as you said, make the hexagram emerge naturally from the casting process.

 

[breakmov]

I understand the option, but then how would you go about incorporating the hexagram construction method, keeping all the information contained in a deck of cards?

how to incorporate that graphic style you left on the 12 cards in the deck of cards?

I imagine a deck of cards with useful information regarding the 64 hexagrams and something embedded in the cards that allows us to cast, without needing "extra accessories" for the purpose.

...the option of numbers printed on the sides, would be something that would solve the cast, but without the visual aspect of a constructed hexagram.

breakmov

 

[remod]

Let's recap where am I at the moment:

• I'll make a deck of 64 cards
• Each card will have in its front face:
  • The number and name of the hexagram
  • The hexagram itself
  • An image representing the "mood" of the hexagram
  • A short version of the judgment text
• The back of 16 cards will be marked with a red dot (meaning: moving line). The others will be marked with a black dot.
• To cast an hexagram:
  • Shuffle the deck
  • Pick seven cards
  • turn one face up, that will be the received hexagram
  • line up the other six cards by aligning their dots in the upper left corner to determine which lines are moving (the ones with red dots).

Example showing the layout for 6.1.3:


(probabilities for moving lines are very close to the three coins method).

• I did not incorporate the method for getting zero or one moving line that would be easier (just two cards to extract rather than seven) but seems too limiting.
• However, note that extracting a second card to get the relating hexagram will always produce at least one moving line as well, so, maybe, I should incorporate the other method to bring the odds of moving lines lower.

What do you think? I'll try now to focus on the images while this "technical" aspects settle down through your feedback.

 

[dobro p]

For those interested, using the back of the cards to get the moving lines have the following probabilities:

View attachment 5118

Whereas with three coins or the yarrow stalks, the probability to get a moving line is 25% for any line.
In other words, is 1% to 2% less likely to get moving lines in the upper trigram.

Would you consider this relevant?

I wouldn't, no. The calculation of probabilities is a left-brain approach to understanding how events happen. I've personally witnessed events and oracle outcomes that staggeringly defy probability theory.

Nice cards, btw. You could, if you wanted, put the number and name of the hexagram with the text under the art. It's not a suggestion, just an idea to consider.

 

[remod]

I wouldn't, no. The calculation of probabilities is a left-brain approach to understanding how events happen. I've personally witnessed events and oracle outcomes that staggeringly defy probability theory.

Not sure what you mean. At the very least, knowing the probabilities is important so one can see that the outcome that just happened would be extremely rare, right?

Nice cards, btw. You could, if you wanted, put the number and name of the hexagram with the text under the art. It's not a suggestion, just an idea to consider.

Thanks. I'll surely check to see how placing the number and name below the image would affect the overall look.

 

[dobro p]

Not sure what you mean. At the very least, knowing the probabilities is important so one can see that the outcome that just happened would be extremely rare, right?

Not the way I see it. I believe that things happen according to pattern, but I don't believe that the so-called 'laws' of probability even begin to describe the reality. I don't believe that things like probability, time, and cause-and-effect are anything more than constructs of the human mind for imposing a perceived order on what is essentially a far more complex reality. (That's one reason I like the I Ching - its yin/yang dynamism has a way to balance these things.)

So, when something rare happens, I say that it's rare (doesn't happen often), but I don't think that has anything to do with the probabilities involved. Probabilities are all in your head, not in events themselves.

 

[remod]

Not the way I see it. I believe that things happen according to pattern, but I don't believe that the so-called 'laws' of probability even begin to describe the reality.

Well, all of our math knowledge is aimed at finding ways to describe and talk about things that are around us.
Every math tool we have at our disposal is, in itself, faulty as it can only capture thin slices of reality, not its entirety. Each of them can say something but it can say everything.

When talking about flipped coins, shuffled cards, rolling dice, ... the language that I know better is combinatorics and probabilities. It's a language that tells me what could happen more often and what could seldom happen. It doesn't tell me anything about what is actually happening (or will happen).

If I flip a coin long enough, I'll get a strike of 10 consecutive heads, for how little probable it is, because as long as something is possible, it will happen eventually. In our life, we experience events that are highly unlikely but they still happen!

If any unusual event (in terms of probabilities) happens, it draws my attention to it.
When I cast a hexagram to consult the I Ching, I create a relationship between my question and the hexagram I get (the answer). If that answer is an unusual one (e.g. with many moving lines) my attention is drawn toward the multiple facets of the answer that those moving lines introduce into the answer.
The reason I put so much attention to the probabilities of the method I use while casting is that I prefer to know whether the outcome I got is an unusual one or not.

Please, don't get me wrong. This is just my preference and my way of thinking. I'm sure that each one of us has developed (and is developing) their personal approach to the I Ching. I'm not saying that my way is better or worse than anyone else's (let alone saying that it is correct!). It just works for me. By sharing the many methods to cast hexagrams with cards, beads, dice, etc that I explored (and their statistical property) I just hope they could be of use to someone else that can take what they think is useful and disregard the rest.

 

[remod]

During these days I've tried to come up with a style that would fit this project. I'm not entirely sure yet but I think I will stay with this Ukiyo-e - like style. Hope you like it.

I've also moved the number and title below the image, as suggested by @dobro_p , which would make room for more text (if needed).

 

[remod]

I realized that I've never shown examples of other styles.

Here is a more "painting" approach. I must confess I really like it, I just doubt I can stay consistent.

In this image, I tried to capture the idea of "cloud over the sky" and waiting.

 

[remod]

Another change of style in my search of the one I will commit to:

Wilhelm:
Clouds and thunder:
The image of DIFFICULTY AT THE BEGINNING.
Thus the superior man
Brings order out of confusion.

Did I manage to convey it just a little?

 

[remod]

Here I tried to put nothing more than the "Clouds rise up to heaven" since the rest of the image text is quite difficult to relate to the main concepts of the hexagram (at least to me).
Hope the "waiting" part is still conveyed by the woman standing there watching the clouds.
What do you think?

 

[remod]

And, a possible back of the cards in the same style.

 

[remod]

It seems that the illustration type of cards did not raise much enthusiasm.
The "painting" style, insted won the appreciation of dobro (thanks!).
So I returned to painting style and made these two:

I'm re-doing always the same cards to make it easier to compare the styles.
For hexagram 3, I also incorporated the "sprouting" idea that is in Hilary's translation.

 

[remod]

A possible back of the cards: