A request for info on historical background

[procurator]

Hi i am looking for the RE above, especially oracle bones and chinese contemprorary text references. Will be much grateful for relevant links, thank you.

 

[pocossin]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oracle_bone

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oracle_bone_script

 

[bradford]

You might also try some other search keywords:
OBI, Oracle Bone Inscriptions, Oracle Bones, Dragon Bones,
Plastromancy, Scapulimancy

 

[fkegan]

What is the historical background of the YI?

Hi i am looking for the RE above, especially oracle bones and chinese contemprorary text references. Will be much grateful for relevant links, thank you.

Hi Procurator,

I am not sure I quite understand what you are requesting, more specifically In Re historical background upon what? Hexagram divination under the Shang Dynasty, the Chou I Ching or what exactly?

I do remember an article in Scientific American or some other non-specialist journal reporting the archeological findings from excavating the many mounds of tortoise shell oracle bone Oracles over the centuries with the note that 'strangely' these mounds disappear completely by 1000 BCE. As an academic archeologist the author, Chinese or oversees Chinese from his name apparently was totally unaware of the traditional legend that the Chou I Ching was introduced by King Weng in 1100 BCE and apparently took hold totally within a single century.

Hi Brad,

It would be helpful to have the complete title of the Chinese original translated by Wilhelm. I just know it as the Imperial Edition of 1716, but I see many other dates in that decade used by others and the formal title includes the specific name of the Emperor who commissioned the work, as does the King James Bible. Thank you for improving the academic citation level here.

 

[Sparhawk]

Zhou yi zhe zhong 周易折中

Compiled by Li Guangdi

 

[bradford]

Hi Brad,
It would be helpful to have the complete title of the Chinese original translated by Wilhelm. I just know it as the Imperial Edition of 1716, but I see many other dates in that decade used by others and the formal title includes the specific name of the Emperor who commissioned the work, as does the King James Bible. Thank you for improving the academic citation level here.

This is the one I have, two volumes with lots of commentary, no English

Li Guangdi, et al, ed’s. (Yuzuan) Zhouyi Zhezhong. 1715; Reprint, Taibei:
Chengwen, 1975. ISBN 957785313 or 669244007

The Emperor who commissioned it was Kang Xi, r. 1662-1722

You might look for this concordance too

Harvard-Yenching Institute. A Concordance to Yi Ching (Zhou Yi Yin De).
Sinological Index Series, Supplement No. 10. Again, no English.

 

[fkegan]

Zhou yi zhe zhong 周易折中

Compiled by Li Guangdi

This is the one I have, two volumes with lots of commentary, no English

Li Guangdi, et al, ed’s. (Yuzuan) Zhouyi Zhezhong. 1715; Reprint, Taibei:
Chengwen, 1975. ISBN 957785313 or 669244007

The Emperor who commissioned it was Kang Xi, r. 1662-1722

You might look for this concordance too

Harvard-Yenching Institute. A Concordance to Yi Ching (Zhou Yi Yin De).
Sinological Index Series, Supplement No. 10. Again, no English.

Hi Luis,and Brad,

So its the Imperial Edition of 1715? I assume Kang Xi is the Pinyan of the Emperor's name, in Wade-Giles he was who and what was his dynasty?

And overall, the Full Proper Title in both Wade-Giles and Pinyan would be:?

Is this Li Guangdi work (who was he, by the way?) is what is found on Yellowbridge?

Thank you so much for your quick replies...

Luis, I am still sitting by my email in-box waiting for your email reply to arrive through the ether of the Internet...

Frank

 

[Sparhawk]

So its the Imperial Edition of 1715? I assume Kang Xi is the Pinyan of the Emperor's name, in Wade-Giles he was who and what was his dynasty?

Kangxi Emperor

And overall, the Full Proper Title in both Wade-Giles and Pinyan would be:?

Wade-Giles / Pinyin Conversion Table (I suggest you use the separate transliteration of the individual characters, as I posted above)

Is this Li Guangdi work (who was he, by the way?) is what is found on Yellowbridge?

He was the compiler of that imperial edition. Li Guangdi

Luis, I am still sitting by my email in-box waiting for your email reply to arrive through the ether of the Internet...

Thanks for your message. I haven't had the time to put my mind to it. I will.

 

[charly]

... especially oracle bones ...

Here there is an introduction with some links, one or two don´t function:

Oracle Bone and Bronze Inscriptions and Xu Shen’s Shuowenjiezi

http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/dept/chinese/aspect/oraclebon.html
​

From: http://www.lib.cuhk.edu.hk/uclib/bones/ob01.htm
​

For googling in chinese look for 甲骨文 jiaguwen


Yours,

Charly

 

[cjgait]

Texts on Oracle Bones / Jia Gu Wen

There's a wide variety of texts available in Chinese on Jia Gu Wen (oracle bone language), but a fairly limited literature in English. The best, IMHO, is Sources of Shang History, The Oracle-Bone Inscriptions of Bronze Age China by David N. Keightley (ISBN 0-520-05455-5) It's out of print and expensive, unfortunately, but any good university library should have it.

On the texts in Chinese, perhaps you could elaborate a little more what information you are seeking and I could recommend a few books I've come across. The real guru on the subject is Harmen Mesker, who's worked with the old characters quite a bit, judging from his articles.

 

[charly]

Some old characters in new calligraphy.

This picture:

​

shows, in six columns with four characters each, the following characters:

葵 酒 江 辟 以 新
驭 歌 河 相 为 旅
一 洗 湖 成 名 事
字 凿 海 至 取 类
​

From right to left and from top to down:

新 xīn new, recent, fresh, modern
旅 lǚ trip, journey; travel; traveler
事 shì affair, matter, business; to serve; accident, incident
类 lèi class, group, kind, category

以yǐ by means of; thereby, therefore; consider as; in order to
为 wéi do, handle, govern, act; be
名 míng name, rank, title, position
取qǔ take, receive, obtain; select

辟 pì law, rule; open up, develop
相 xiāng mutual, reciprocal, each other
成chéng completed, finished, fixed
至 zhì reach, arrive; extremely, very

江jiāng large river; yangzi; surname
河 hé river; stream; yellow river
湖 hú a lake; Hubei, Hunan; bluish-green
海 hǎi sea, ocean; maritime

酒 jiǔ wine, spirits, liquor, alcoholic beverage
歌 gē song, lyrics; sing, chant; praise
洗 xǐ wash, rinse; clean, purify
凿 záo chisel; bore, pierce

葵 kuí sunflower; measure
驭 yù drive, ride; manage, control
一 yī one; a, an; alone
字 zì letter, character, word


Source:
http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_492af57d0100dzmd.html

Ch.

 

[charly]

More ancient characters:

Yangshao pottery symbols

Pottery symbols, oracle bone and modern scrip (1)

Modern and bone characters.
​

Source:

6th. 7th. and 21th. pictures from...
http://www.douban.com/note/42108451/

_______________________
(1) I don´t understand why the vertical stroke become a number ten in modern script. Maybe an error.

Ch.

 

[fkegan]

Kangxi Emperor


Wade-Giles / Pinyin Conversion Table (I suggest you use the separate transliteration of the individual characters, as I posted above)

He was the compiler of that imperial edition. Li Guangdi

Thanks for your message. I haven't had the time to put my mind to it. I will.

Hi Luis,

So, the Imperial Edition isn't like the King James, it is the Imperial Minister's personal compilation? Wow!. OK
Well, I'll exhale and move on to my various other projects while I wait:
Vaginal I Ching; the Alternative History of the Cuban Missile Crisis with Nixon as Pres. In 1962; and my latest

--what to do with the miles of special tunnels in Yucca Mt. though it has no connections by road currently. It would make a great convention center/retreat spa/ and worst case survivalist bunker. It could be accessed on horseback or by horse drawn carriage (the locals often wear cowboy hats and ride horseback as normal mode of transport. It could be a place to develop green off road vehicle and new ways to transport freight--I think solar power sites are developing nearby. A system to harness solar energy into new battery technology could be a model for a system of alternative vehicles with battery exchange stations instead of petrol pumps.

It is in Nye County, NV so it has Walter's Louisiana BBQ in town (he comes to Vegas on Wednesday for the farmers' market event in a park--how I know him and his food) and also legal prostitution to make it a B&B resort spa unlike any other at least in terms of what can be publicly promoted and described .

Incentives for innovation and hard work can include personal services not allowed elsewhere. They even have licensed the first official male prostitute, although the first dude has moved on and the substitute stud is delayed in his debut by an electrical short in his trailer. It is rural NV and skilled contractors are at a premium.

I think it would make a great place to also develop and age a new variety of Blue Cheese and perhaps mushrooms and other things that would grow especially well in cool dark places with fantastic air purification systems.

Perhaps even 64 specially designed and decorated hexagram suites with six rooms each and a system to go up a spiral staircase in the overall judgment and image area to another floor to move directly to the Resultant or Nuclear or Corner hexagram suite and then down that second hexagram suite's spiral staircase.


The possibilities and opportunities are unlimited and amazing. If you come to Vegas to visit we can make a pilgrimage to Yucca Mt and to Parump where Walter's BBQ and the county seat is located.

Frank

 

[fkegan]

The origin of the ideogram for the number 10 in Chinese +....

Hi Charly,

When did the crossed strokes start to be used to represent the number 10?

I doubt highly it was an error, perhaps a new idea. The single horizontal stroke is the unit number one. To mark the other end of a set of 10 with a vertical stroke is simple tally protocol. When does it appear in the archeological record? (RIP ancestors tombs disturbed to know this datum)

Frank

 

[charly]

Hi Charly,

When did the crossed strokes start to be used to represent the number 10?

I doubt highly it was an error, perhaps a new idea. The single horizontal stroke is the unit number one. To mark the other end of a set of 10 with a vertical stroke is simple tally protocol. When does it appear in the archeological record? (RIP ancestors tombs disturbed to know this datum)

Frank

Hi, Frank:

Maybe you have reason. I only thinked that having ´+´ (that I read ten) in the three scripts, maybe the vertical stroke ´|´ was but a phallic symbol.

But, coming back to JiaGuWen, this viet page has alphabetical ordered tables giving Bone Characters with the corresponding Modern Simplified Chinese, the last too small maybe for an easy reading, but decipherable:

http://www.tienghoa.net/diendan/showthread.php?t=224

A little sample Peace = Woman Under Roof

Much more tables at the source.
​

Yours,

Charly

P.D.
Can get the tables as images at:
全部甲骨文汉字对照表打包下载
http://202.202.80.1/mweb/sssf/web/userdata/jgwdzb.zip

All in one pdf:
http://ishare.iask.sina.com.cn/f/5686410.html
Click the left green button with the down arrow.

All in one word:
甲骨文——汉字对应表.doc
http://ishare.iask.sina.com.cn/f/7008107.html?from=isnom
Slow for opening but can increase the size of the chinese fonts and can access the pictures one by one.


Ch.

 

[fkegan]

Hi Charly,

But why limit the imagery? If the vertical stroke is phallic, then it penetrates the horizontal stroke thus the pair is a symbol for sex itself. The complete act.

or more in line with hex 39, the fellow doing all this tallying is getting more and more frustrated having to count out each item, by the time he gets to 10 of them and can start a new line of tally, he is thinking of how much he misses his wife while he is working so the strokes get more and more energetic till getting on to quitting time and he can return home for dinner and that night move on to marital satisfaction in the style of hex 40 completes the set of + in the beginning of the second half of the Chou I Ching (the first hexagram of that half being formal monogamous courtship which ends 10 hexagrams later in hex 40 the regular sexual satisfaction of the spouses after they return to each other after being separated by hex 39.

Frank

 

[charly]

Hi Charly,

But why limit the imagery? If the vertical stroke is phallic, then it penetrates the horizontal stroke thus the pair is a symbol for sex itself. The complete act.

Hi, Frank:

Se non è vero, è ben trovato. To F_CK is a classic in the category LOST IN TRANSLATION.

See some examples from Victor Mair:

Gan, to f_ck, is indeed like a cross with a horizontal stroke atop, although not always means to f_ck.

Even computers can make mistakes:

Source: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/005195.html

Of course, if GAN means TO DO it will not be a big mistake, if you understand. (1)

Yours,

Charly

__________________________
(1) 干 han4 / an4 = pestle, 干 gan1 = to offend / to oppose / to invade / etc. / etc.
[R.Sears Chineseetymology]

it's also the simplified form of 乾 gān, qián = dry; first hexagram; warming principle of the sun, penetrating and fertilizing, heavenly generative principle (male)
[MDBG]

钎 qian = tool for boring holes
[Zdic.net]

 

[charly]

Another tables with bone characters:

http://www.5qit.cn/在线/jiaguwen/jgw_zd1.htm
http://www.5qit.cn/在线/jiaguwen/jgw_zd2.htm
http://www.5qit.cn/在线/jiaguwen/jgw_zd3.htm
http://www.5qit.cn/在线/jiaguwen/jgw_zd4.htm
http://www.5qit.cn/在线/jiaguwen/jgw_zd5.htm

Ch.

 

[Sparhawk]

Nice links Charly, thanks for finding them.

Un abrazo,

 

[fkegan]

When are certain character strings innocent, intimate or obscene?

Nice links Charly, thanks for finding them.

Un abrazo,

Hi, Frank:

Se non è vero, è ben trovato. To F_CK is a classic in the category LOST IN TRANSLATION.

If it is true, it is well found. Is what my Google Translate gives me for English of your Italian phrase. I do not understand Italians very well without hand gestures included...
And that phrasing in English, makes no sense at all to me. Showing I do not understand that language all that well myself!

Yes, indeed you show the limits between my initials and proper discussion of Chinese and improper obscenities very well. My middle name is not Cornelius, though I remember school classmates noting that if it were, and also Ulysses I would have impressive initials indeed.

I would assume the second horizontal stroke is required to distinguish this ideogram from merely 10, and of course the two horizontal strokes represent the first even number which is female in Chinese (Yin) and also represents relationships or interaction as in the non-people strokes of the character Jen, if I remember my dictionary correctly. So,

I agree the two horizontal strokes with the vertical cross stroke is the right one for taking the number 10 and getting intimate about it, as in Bo Derek's expression of Hollywood sexism in her movie "10" with Dudley Moore.

Why do we men in all discussions of abstract symbolism or exotic foreign languages always end up with our fly unzipped?

Un abrazo, bro,

Frank