a very dramatic line

[pepita45]

Hello again,
I am on a dating site and meeting some real nutcases and weirdoes. I shall not renew my subscription. I don't know why they all get in touch with me, but that's another question for another time.
I am chatting with a lovely guy and we hope to meet up really soon, respective schedules permitting.I asked the Oracle Does X have a significant other?
reply 30.5>13. I think the Oracle is having a bit of fun with me! If he has, or has not, it's not the end of the world and I certainly would not see this as something to be really upset and angry about.No need, as nothing of real importance has happened.
Can anyone give me an opinion on whether the Oracle is making fun of me, or maybe he does have a girlfriend who will be very upset when she finds out he has been flirting with me?
As usual, very grateful for any replies .
Thank you

 

[diamanda]

Does X have a significant other? 30.5 > 13
I agree with you, he doesn't have a proper girlfriend. He might have a friend with benefits though (a lot of 'water', then just friends).

I don't know why they all get in touch with me

As you said, there are lots of nutcases and weirdos. They get in touch with pretty much everyone, especially with people who seem new to online dating, I guess because newbies would make easier 'victims'. I hope it goes well for you with the nice guy!

 

[Freedda]

Pepita45,

Just a reminder that you have other tools in the toolbox, like communicating.

How about asking Mr. X, "hey, I am just wondering if you are dating anyone else or have a significant other? I don't mind so much, but I'd like to know a bit more about what I'm getting involved with in seeing you."

Short of a lie or evasion, I'd guess his answer wil be easy to interpret.

Setting that piece of wisdom aside for now, it seems what is being conveyed is about awakening: may be that you can (or should, or might try) to 'let your love light shine' (as the old soul song suggests) -- perhaps to be open to new possibilities. It might also be about keeping your flashlight handy if you need to shine it into any hidden corners you might find as a relationship unfolds. Finding the hidden stuff might not be a bad thing -- and it might not just be Mr. X's hidden side that gets revealed.

The line suggest to me being able to carry our pain and disappointments -- maybe our grieving from other relationships -- in a way that we don't become bitter, and that we still allow a space for love, friendship, and 'fellowship with others.' (I think it might be true too that some of those nuts and weirdos on the internet, are simply people who have not been able to learn that lesson.)

Best, David.

 

[diamanda]

David, maybe you're not very familiar with online dating. Lying is the norm, especially lying about having a partner. It would be great if you could just ask and get an honest answer, but in real life it just doesn't happen often.

How about asking Mr. X, "hey, I am just wondering if you are dating anyone else or have a significant other? I don't mind so much

what makes you believe that a woman wouldn't really mind that much?

 

[Freedda]

David, maybe you're not very familiar with online dating. Lying is the norm, especially lying about having a partner ... And ... what makes you believe that a woman wouldn't really mind that much?

First, if lying is the norm on this website, why would I, or, Pepita, or anyone want to use it? Or why would you think that in meeting someone, they aren't still lying? And, I also offered it as a suggestion, not the end-all be-all answer.

Second, I used the words I did because Pepita said herself, about the possibility of another women, "If he has, or has not, it's not the end of the world ..." Or should I assume she's also lying?

 

[diamanda]

David: people use online dating (and any other dating) in order to find someone worthwhile. We live in a highly digital world, hence people use online dating. I hope this answers your question about why people use online dating.

Also keep in mind that it's much easier to lie in the digital world, because there's no body language to give the lie away.

You misunderstood what Pepita wrote. She didn't say she wouldn't mind the existence of another woman in general. She said she wouldn't mind to find out at this stage, because nothing has happened at all yet between herself and that man. I'm assuming that Pepita (like the majority of women) wouldn't like to share her man with another woman. But, Pepita please correct me if I'm wrong here.

 

[Trojina]

But the fact is an I Ching cast simply is not conclusive evidence of him having or not having a partner.

You can't look at 30.5, or any cast come to that, and have any degree of certainty that he has someone or doesn't have so surely to goodness actual communication is a better bet at least than drawing conclusions from an I Ching cast !

You aren't going to know if he's lying through an I Ching cast - you are trying to find out a fact and so need factual evidence which you can only get through observation/actual evidence. Other than that you simply have to decide for yourself whether to trust him or not.

She said she wouldn't mind to find out at this stage

Well she ain't going to find out with any degree of certainty through an I Ching cast so yes actual communication is a better bet as it always is when people try to guess out what others are doing via Yi and then imagine it's some kind of fact. It's no fact at all. You don't know if he has a partner, nor do I, only he knows so it's either talk to him and use normal processes of discernment or don't.

 

[pepita45]

Thank you Diamanda and David for your lovely replies. Of course, I asked him if he was single, and he assured me he is, but I am becoming cynical, and just assumed he must have other women interested in him.After all it,'s a dating site!
I just thought the anger and suffering and crying of line 5 was way over the top as an answer, and I wonder what the Oracle was really trying to tell me, something that I am really not getting.
I am self taught and I have used to IChing for 30 years and I still have big problems understanding the readings, and more than once I felt like throwing the IChing books I have out of the window..... fascinating and frustrating at the same time.

 

[pepita45]

Hi Trojina, see my reply to Diamanda and David. I am at a loss to understand the implication of great the suffering of line 5. If we don't end up meeting or if indeed has a significant other, at this stage of our friendship it's not a huge issue, it really isn't!! Thank you for your wisdom, as always.

 

[diamanda]

You aren't going to know if he's lying through an I Ching cast

Trojina this is your personal opinion. I firmly believe (and have had endless evidence towards it) that you can definitely find out if someone's lying through divination. Divination is very good when you're trying to find information which is not available to you via other means. This is one of the main uses of divination, as I'm sure you already know.

I just thought the anger and suffering and crying of line 5 was way over the top as an answer, and I wonder what the Oracle was really trying to tell me, something that I am really not getting.

The characters of the line show a lot of liquid and a lot of sighs. Of course it can be interpreted as suffering, but it can also be interpreted as a lot of sex. Or whatever, depending on the question.

 

[pepita45]

Well Diamanda, are you saying that he is having lots of sex, or that when we meet we will have lots of sex (blushing as i type)?

 

[Trojina]

Hi Trojina, see my reply to Diamanda and David. I am at a loss to understand the implication of great the suffering of line 5. If we don't end up meeting or if indeed has a significant other, at this stage of our friendship it's not a huge issue, it really isn't!! Thank you for your wisdom, as always.

Copious and snotty weeping does not necessarily indicate such great suffering. It indicates the free release of emotion, tears, softening of heart. From Hilary's translation in wiki

'Weeping tears like flowing streams,
Sad as if in mourning.
Good fortune.'

...and then the question is 'why good fortune with such weeping ? Why because weeping is not always a bad thing, it both releases you and often releases the one who sees you weep. When people cry often others just immediately soften - everyone softens, feelings flow. And this is hexagram 30, Clarity, illumination so feelings shine out, aren't hidden. One knows one own heart when one weeps more than at any other time, that is the gift of it. There is no artifice in real crying so that may be the 'good fortune'. If you think about it if you had never wept your heart would be brittle and shallow and you wouldn't know your self and perhaps if others had not seen you weep they might not know you so well. It doesn't necessarily have to be so dramatic it's just an opening of the heart. One cannot cry with a totally closed heart so at least if you are crying you are alive and open and in a sense fertile, open to receive and relate even if through pain.

Your question was

I asked the Oracle Does X have a significant other?

I don't know the answer to that. I wouldn't even much expect a comprehensible answer to that question because I think the business of the Yi is you and it is you who it answers not what others are doing. Well it may at times of course, never say never, but your real question is about how safe it is to trust. Above all you need to trust so that your heart can be fully open. If you don't trust him you wouldn't cry with him and if you wouldn't cry with him then why would you sleep with him.


Okay I know it's not necessarily gone that far, it's just a meeting but I think perhaps Yi is showing you what is truly valuable here is you being able to fully express your emotions completely and if the answer refers to him then perhaps he is very emotionally open in which case I guess this kind of supports Diamanda's answer that he is genuine - though I wouldn't bank on it.


Perhaps when you meet you will both be very open to one another. So I don't see this as necessarily a very direct answer to the question. I mean it could be that meeting him makes you feel so low you want to give it all up and this is good fortune as it brings you back in touch with what you really want from a man.


I don't know how this will pan out but I personally like these answers where one isn't sure what it means. I like to carry them around with me and see what happens. However this turns out there's something good for you in the very process of it all - and if you find yourself on the kitchen floor weeping remember this line and come and post here and tell us

 

[pepita45]

I will update you definitely on what happens and if we manage to meet after all. Thanks once again Trojina, you have given me a lot to think about

 

[Freedda]

... am at a loss to understand the implication of great the suffering of line 5 ... .

Pepita, first I'll say (admit) that my take on this is not really about if Mr. X is boinking anyone else. I usually interpret the yi as if it offering advice from a good, wise friend for the situation you as in -- which in this case is a lot about seeking love and connection. If you don't like or agree with that, or it it's not what you're looking for, that's fine. You can take it or leave it as suits you.

That said, my take on 30.5: there is a type of peer counseling that was popular for a while, called co-counseling, that was based on the idea that many (or all) of us carry around emotional baggage and wounds which can hold us back from being whole or living a full life. You'd work with a peer (a nonprofessional) who would offer a space for you to emote -- let it out -- which was often through crying and grieving.

In some respects, 30.5 is like this for me -- the idea that our joy and good fortune comes from first grieving, lamenting, tears ... In a similar way that allowing ourselves to fully grieve helps us let go of dear ones we've lost.

I don't know how, or even if, this applies to you ... So just some stabs at it:

As I said earlier: maybe being able to carry our pain and disappointments -- maybe our grieving from other relationships -- in a way that we don't become bitter, and that we still allow a space for love, friendship, and 'fellowship with others.'

Or, could it be a call to see if there's some unfinished business that needs attending to?

Or, maybe it means you may have some more loses and grief in the romance department before you find contentment?

Or ... it just doesn't seem to fit ... and maybe I am off the mark ... for which I apologize.

Best, David.

 

[Freedda]

... but it can also be interpreted as a lot of sex ...

Diamanda, i am curious how you make a connection between the tears and grieving in line 30.5 and sex? I am no Yi or Chinese language scholar, but I've looked at two glosses of this line and what I read is:

Tears pouring out / issuing / gushing like runnng water, streaming, flowing // and lament, sad ...

And

Emerging/come out of/proceed from tears like/same as gush(ing) water surging in stream/falling tears/heavy rain // sad / unhappy /distressed / mourn // lament/sigh/express intense regret or sorrow/mourn over (something) significant ...

From these I don't get a sense of tears of joy or streaming ecstasy, so I am curious.

Thanks, David.

 

[pepita45]

Thanks David, for your very detailed and interesting reply.I have started dating again, after divorcing my husband of many years, and spent 3 years by myself processing what happened, so I have grieved my loss, come to terms with it and moved on.So what you say really resonate with me, and your last 3 sentences have given me something to ponder about. I know that the Oracle often reflects the state of your heart and mind at the time of a reading, I just would like a bit of straightforward divination sometimes....

 

[diamanda]

Well Diamanda, are you saying that he is having lots of sex, or that when we meet we will have lots of sex (blushing as i type)?

Your question was "Does X have a significant other", so the answer is about that.

Diamanda, i am curious how you make a connection between the tears and grieving in line 30.5 and sex?

Because of the characters of the line, which show a lot of liquid and a lot of sighs. And because of experience I've also seen this line meaning a variety of other situations, e.g. "having a shower and going out with friends", and also "getting drenched in rain before a work meeting". It all depends on what the question was. The line does not mention "grieving" at all.

 

[pepita45]

Thanks for the clarification Diamanda, I certainly will keep that in mind if we manage to meet. We are only texting at this stage, so he can have sex with whom he likes....as I said earlier sometimes I just want an answer that by asking directly, might not be the truth. As Trojina pointed out I have to wait and see how it all works out, and that sometimes when the answer is not cut and dried, to keep thinking about it, and maybe at a later date, the meaning will become very clear.

 

[Freedda]

... I have started dating again, after divorcing my husband of many years, and spent 3 years by myself processing what happened, so I have grieved my loss, come to terms with it and moved on ... I know that the Oracle often reflects the state of your heart and mind at the time of a reading, I just would like a bit of straightforward divination sometimes....

Thanks Pepita. I wonder then, maybe the line is describing the process you've already gone through these last few years, as a precursor to 'good fortune' ... and whatever that might look like.

What you said, "the Oracle often reflects the state of your heart and mind at the time of a reading," is how I approach the I Ching and its responses. Looking at specifics and glimpses into the future are not really in my skill set.

As to 30.5, Wilhelm's words i think sum up what I was trying to get to: "lf one is intent on retaining ... clarity of mind, good fortune will come from this grief. For here we are dealing not with a passing mood ... but with a real change of heart."

All the best, David.