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Absolutely Literal

laylab

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Are there ever times when the I Ching uses a line to give an extremely literal, absolute answer devoid of symbolism and abstraction?

For instance: If the I Ching wanted to tell you that someone is going to show up at a place you are eating or drinking could it resort to using Hex 47's changing lines 2?

There are many more examples I could think of, maybe you know some?

Is this possible?

(I didn't pull hex 47 recently but caste it before, months ago and the following week someone (an ex co-worker) literally did show up at a networking event I was hosting.)
So that is why I use that example.

Such a literal interpretation would imply "in-your-face" kind of divination..like, "THIS is what is going to happen"..and I normally don't see those kinds of answers. The only time I get concrete information is from Tarot or dreams.

What about the I ching? And are some Hexagrams more appropriate for literal answers than others?
 

Trojina

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Yes i think literal, very personal answers are often had - thats why relying on others commentaries is not always useful - the Yi spells it out for you you know the meaning is absolutely literal and specific to your circumstance and only you would ever recognise it. For example i think Martin recently asked about some advice his mother had given him and when he threw 18.2 which specifically mentions 'mother' he automatically knew he should go with her advice. I asked once about some bleeding and got 9.4 bleeding ceases - so I knew its relevance to me no need to go delving into the symbolism of blood in the Yi etc etc. or even reading any commentaries

Actually I think people get more lost delving too deep into lines - reading all kinds of psychological/spiritual/mythical nuances that aren't there, as it seems to me the Yi will be literally very helpful when it can be. Of course these deeper meanings can also be there but I have to say i personally find the Yi more helpful when i go for the superficial approach ;) and i shudder to think of the times i ignored the obvious meaning of the answer that was staring me in the face in favour of trying to make someone elses commentary fit.

If the Yi has a character I'd say it actually favoured straight talking -its not interested in being obscure for the sake of it .

I do think the Yi is literally factually predictive at times too yes, but thats something i only really know for my own readings, i wouldn't know or like to say for others .

And i think all the hexagrams and lines can be equally useful for literal answers -
 

hilary

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Yes, it can definitely be very literal. One of my own favourites came within my first year getting to know the oracle, when we were thinking of buying a house. Yi came back with hexagram 28, and it turned out that the previous owners had casually removed a key structural beam from the roof, leaving the rest in urgent need of structural repairs.

The thing is, though, that life tends to happen on lots of metaphorical levels at once. At least, that's what I've found. The house in question was also too expensive for us, and had so much 'scope for improvement' that it would've been an unpaid full-time job for months. All kinds of 'overload' were present, not just the kind caused by the missing beam we found lying in the garden.

So I'd recognise the 100% literal answer, appreciate it, and have a look to see if there's more to be learned.
 
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lightofreason

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The hexagrams represent CLASSES of events and so are general, figurative, where the LOCAL CONTEXT is an instance of a class just as someone's name is an instance of a noun. At the LOCAL level the differentiation of name from noun is slim - as such the mask is a tight fit and can be taken litrerally - the name and person it represents are taken as if 'one'.

The hexagrams as classes have developed from their form as instances of five line representations as they have of four and they of three or two or one. As such it is possible for a hexagram to be so close to a local context event as to be taken literally - but still in general ;-) - since the language of the I Ching covers 'all there is' so its symbols have to do a lot of doublre duty and so serve as metaphors but given that, there can be instances of a class fitting an instance - the mask is a tight fit - but still a mask.

Chris.
 
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bruce_g

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When was the last time someone here has had a conversation with a pig or fish, or shot a hawk on a high wall, or literally crossed a great water? We have left and right brain hemispheres, and both are designed to be engaged and utilized.
 
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bruce_g

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I put this to the Yi: literal or symbolic?

19.1,2,6-23
 

rosada

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Amazing responce, Bruce!

Yi: Literal or symbolic?

19.
The {I Ching} is inexhaustible
In will to teach,
And without limits
In tolerance and protection of the people.

19.1
Joint approach {literal AND symbolic.}
Perseverance brings good fortune.

19.2
Joint approach {literal and symbolic.}
Good fortune.
Everything furthers.

19.6
Greathearted approach (literal, symbolic, and whatever else it takes.}
Good fortune. No blame.

And why is Yi willing to do whatever it takes to be understood? Because...

23.
{Higher Conciousnesses} can ensure their position
Only by giving generously to those below.
 
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lightofreason

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When was the last time someone here has had a conversation with a pig or fish,

I was only commenting last night to the salmon I was eating on how its flesh was so good.

bruce_g said:
or shot a hawk on a high wall,

LONG time ago. More recently has been possum (on a high wall)....with a stone.

bruce_g said:
or literally crossed a great water?

depends on definition. 2001 for the Pacific ocean, last week for Sydney harbour (across the bridge, the tunnel is boring ;-))


bruce_g said:
We have left and right brain hemispheres, and both are designed to be engaged and utilized.

your showing lack of understanding with this statement. Expressions of consciousness stem from the possible states derived from oscillations across hemispheres rather than from a hemisphere, and also cover the control/regulation of instincts by frontal lobes/pre-frontal cortex, both sides, and so show front/back as well as left/right as well as surface/core influences on expression.

The I Ching in binary order can be used to represent each of these dichotomies in their self-referenced forms.

The realm of the literal (where the metaphor mask is a tight fit) is more associated with the differentiating parts of these dichotomies (left/front/surface) in that they bring out precision and the asymmetric (the unique, the instance, difference).

The realm of the figurative is more associated with the integrating parts of these dichotomies (right/back/core) in that they are more approximate and symmetric (sameness focus, communication through classes - e.g. the IC)

Selft-reference the literal/figurative dichotomy to get the set of classes representing all possible forms (and so mapping that dichotomy to the I Ching and so to facts/values etc - IOW the literal realm covers facts, what-was/what-is/what-will-be, and being proactive. The figurative realm covers values, what-could-have-been/is-not/could-be where we derive labels to represent something not literally 'present' (and that includes being reactive in that one is allowing one's buttons and so representations/classes to be pushed rather than experience the moment as the moment (unique, different).

The IC is a language and so is rooted in being metaphor in that it carries the meanings - our emotional resonances etc. The literal is where the representation fits the moment tightly and so is taken as if the moment but we are always working through a filtering system - our neurology - and so one+ step(s) removed from reality "as is", our consciousness is dominated by "as interpreted".

Its like taking the number '1' literally rather than as a representative of a perfect ratio (1/1, 2/2, 5/5 etc). We encapsulate and amplify negative feedback to become positive and so discretise a relationship into a 'thing'. That discretisation can convert the figurative, the approximate, the class, into the literal, the precise, the instance, BUT that is still 'illusion' if but useful... our individual consciousness is an expression, an instance, of a class of beings but its unique development comes out of negative feedback space (social contexts in early years) mixed with our genetics (and so history). Our uniqueness is the amplification/discretisation of our sense of self and so a tight mask forms for most such that we take self literally - "I think therefore I am" dominates but this is a useful illusion where it reflects metonymy at work.

Since communication is dominated by emotion so it is dominated by symmetric formats and so a focus on sameness. This focus reflects the social dynamics of our species and so communication is overall through metaphor (approximations, symmetric thinking and so lacking in precision but 'good enough' to get by with). The IC is about sameness in that the symbols are derived from symmetry and the pool of potential forms (as represented in pure yin - 000000) and so classes. Yang then actualises, differentiates.

As such Yang is more precise, to the point (what was, is, will be), Yin is more approximate, moves around the point (what could have been, is not, could be)

In all of this is included the literal/figurative dichotomy (and so we get into de-notation/con-notation etc where the figurative always has something 'behind' it)

Chris.
 

hilary

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OK, Chris in conversation with a salmon. This mental image is not going to be easy to escape.
 
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bruce_g

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OK, Chris in conversation with a salmon. This mental image is not going to be easy to escape.

He means he was dominated by symmetric formats and so Chris focused on sameness. That focus reflected the social dynamics of our species and the salmon and so communication was overall through metaphor (approximations, symmetric thinking and so lacking in precision but 'good enough' to get by with).
 
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bruce_g

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your showing lack of understanding with this statement. Expressions of consciousness stem from the possible states derived from oscillations across hemispheres rather than from a hemisphere, and also cover the control/regulation of instincts by frontal lobes/pre-frontal cortex, both sides, and so show front/back as well as left/right as well as surface/core influences on expression.
Thanks.

Why are some people wired more to one (dominant) side than the other, i.e. "left brained" vs "right brained"?
 

Sparhawk

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I was only commenting last night to the salmon I was eating on how its flesh was so good.

Chris.


An spontaneous humorous blurb, Chris?? Folks, those are very rare!! Mark this date as confirmation he's not a sentient machine connected to the Net... :D
 
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lightofreason

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Thanks.

Why are some people wired more to one (dominant) side than the other, i.e. "left brained" vs "right brained"?

.... they are in fact also wired for front/back (circadian rhythms do this and so the dynamics of bipolar etc is also suseptable to weather conditions/seasons influencing internal tidal forces in unison with left/right oscillations.)

...as for left/right - the dichotomy is in fact asymmetric, and so left develops from right. The DEGREE of development is influenced after birth through social exposure combined with genetics (hardware) and firmware (hormones). The more differentiating one is (and so left and frontal) the more asserting of personal consciousness, the more competitive, the more innovative, the more prone to possible psychosis (creation of one's own little world with no consensus with others re meaning - all is really subjective - extreme yang can do this where charisma develops and one asserts one's own context as THE context, as 'reality')

The 'trendy' left/right mappings come from the use of symmetry in communications and so working from the general and interpreting left/right as symmetric (opposites) rather than asymmetric (complements). As such there is a degree of lazyness, a focus on approximations using 'left/right' mappings. We can use the I Ching to be more precise and so give us 64 'types', 32 left, 32 right ;-)

THEN we have to add context where it can push your buttons to behave in a symmetric form or an asymmetric form... and THEN comes hierarchy ;-)

Finally we have the general difference from hormones that make males more differentiating than females and so more 'precise' but also more literal minded, single context focus etc. (only have one thing on their minds!) - female bias is to integrating, pattern matching, organic over mechanistic but lacking in precision we use in Science etc but fine for social dynamics (Humanities etc).

Education can reformat things to some degree where frontal lobe training can make consciousness 'gender independent'.

The left/right oscillations of the brain can have timing issues where the slightest difference per oscillation can elicit long term domination of thinking - thus a bias to right will lead to traits of right influencing thinking - and so depression can develop (VERY common in females). A bias left is more into mania (VERY common in males).
These same issues come with frontal lobe damage (and so the front/back dichotomy). LEFT frontal damage means the right tries to take up the slack and out pops its unique properties of depression etc (as is also common from the back). RIGHT damage means the left tries to take up the slack and out pops mania etc.

Personas come out of this left/right bias where we self-reference left/right to give us classes of behaviour that overlay the binary ordering of the I Ching. This self-referencing takes the left/right and mixes it, as with hexagrams, such that personas can be described by hexagrams where local context favours one over the others. Repetition combined with genetics can make the persona into a universal (we use the same behaviours regardless of context - and that can elicit 'neurosis' at times).

The 'left brain' personas cover all yang based hexagrams, the 'right brain' personas cover all yin based hexagrams. These then map to the MBTI categories.
If we slide the left categories over the right we get variations on a theme and so the 'yin' form of yang, the yang form of yin. etc etc etc

In the I Ching my 'totem' is Thunder and reflects an MBTI "NT" temperament that is changing into NX (T or F depending on context).

You can identify your totem by answering the Emotional I Ching questions where the situation is YOU. (I focus on facts, what is not/could be, reactive - but can be proactive and so Fire takes over)

...and you can make a rough assessment of someone's current temperament using the same questions (the MBTI categories are for TRIGRAMS and are in the trigram pages - we can extend them to cover all hexagram types within a trigram base etc etc - and so thunder has 8 basic hexagrams and each has 64 aspects or we can extend them into dodecagrams!)

As for overall left/right domination - the development of the left from the right in most (males or females) reflects the differentiating bias for conscious beings - we are precise and so develop universals - be they in handedness or in the use of words (that are universals). Thus precision in the use of words demands a left bias. Strokes to the left can be compensated for in the right through being able to sing nursery rhymes etc - things learnt by rote and so lacking finer level differentiation!

Okay?

Chris.
 
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bruce_g

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Chris, I was referring to hard wiring, not later developmental routing.
 
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lightofreason

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Chris, I was referring to hard wiring, not later developmental routing.

I did mention genetics ;-)

If you want more then consider the dominant/recessive dichotomy applied to each gene - and so "I Ching" like classes of possible expressions.

The male of the species is derived from the female with genital development late in uterus life and driven by uteral hormone dynamics.

I can also convert the male brain into the female the female into the male through use of hormones post birth. (but this does not remove breasts or replace genetalia, it can exaggerate or reduce breasts etc etc in that the X and Y chromosomes are still present and so some surgery is needed for complete changes)

I can also cut out one hemisphere pre age 7 or so and get the other to take up the slack! The redundancy in the brain is strong and so allows for wide distributuion of behaviours (prior to becoming 'fixed'), but if we map all properties/methods we get down to the basics of the neuron - differentiating (pulse, FM, axon) and integrating (wave, AM, dendrites) so THERE is the 'hard coding'. Aggregates of neurons form into nuclei/lobes etc and perpetuate the differentiating/integrating biases and do develop into grown life forms with biases.

The naming of 'left brained' or 'right brained' comes out of detecting biases but more often without considering the push of context. Thus you may be 'right brained' but a context can come along and push your buttons to elicit 'left brained' behaviour as your consciousness watches and wonders what the hell is going on! - IOW there are hard coded behaviours as POTENTIALS that can sit and wait (or if left too long atrophy or be taken over by other near-by neurons)

LOCAL context can then influence differentition of senses and so elicit synesthesia experiences as it can influence general perceptions through one's life. I can influence the hard coding by blocking sensory development at an early age where genetically-determined pathways are re-configured! (gets into the use it or lose it issue).

The basics of neurons are hard coded. There are different types for local context dynamics but the hard coding is differentiating/integrating. The redundancy is like us growing two legs, two arms, etc and one hemisphere dealing with one side etc.. so the biases in hemispheres overall are more often due to firmware and software issues. There can be hard-wiring issues but the development of a 'left brain' bias is usually rooted in dynamics post birth (or hormones just pre birth). That said, a genetic situation can 'bias' someone to an overpowering left or right but that is not the norm in neuron-dependent life form; LOCAL context will guide development of brain and so the right-left relationships.
However, with humans, there is an overpowering bias to differentiating and from THAT comes the focus on context-universal perspectives (i.e. right handedness or the use of symbols that are context-free as such)

Chris.
 
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bruce_g

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I did mention genetics ;-)

Yes, you did. I think it originates before genetics. But that's the stuff of right brain, "woman" wiring, intuitive, belief oriented pushes, etc. Your reasoning comes from the left hemisphere? So, we each relate and operate from a different, perhaps opposite hemisphere. Which is all I originally said.
 

laylab

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Great response you got Bruce!

Hmm..Pigs and Fish. This reminds me of a time that symbolic turned literal for my son and I. One morning I was teasing him about a video game he wanted. I said, "you can have it when pigs fly." He responded with, "ohhh, cool, a flying pig. I would rather have that instead!!"

He was being a smart alec..

So I said, "sure kid, I don't care how much it cost, if we ever see a flying pig I'll buy it for you" (background info, he had raised a pig before and showed it at the fair)

So that afternoon he and I were walking in the city when suddenly he stopped cold in his tracks and pointed speechless to the inside of a gadget store. There, flying around on a string was a flying, mechanical pig.

Needless to say, I bought it and we hung it in his room full of cheer.

Synchronicity, symbolism and the literal all came together on that day.
 

Trojina

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When was the last time someone here has had a conversation with a pig or fish, or shot a hawk on a high wall, or literally crossed a great water? We have left and right brain hemispheres, and both are designed to be engaged and utilized.

:confused: Noone said both were not engaged ? Why ask the Yi 'literal or symbolic ?' why would it be either or ?

Its just when the literal comes in in a very personal way its like Mauricio said on the link above - its like someone talking to you and i find a great sense of connection, of being understood and understanding -
 

Trojina

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Er besides which i thought right brain deals with spatial ability etc, left with language - girls develop language earlier than boys, generally males have more developed spacial ability which is why they can park cars and find places on maps :rolleyes: - er i think Chris is right on this - but i confess i've not read it all - but my point is i don't think right brain = woman brain

I can't park a car to save my life so that theory must be right :rofl:
 

rosada

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laylab,
Wonderful story!
You wrote "Synchronicity, symbolism and the literal all came together that day."
I would say, "Synchronicity, symbolism and the literal AND GREAT HEARTED APPROACH all came together that day!"
 
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bruce_g

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Er besides which i thought right brain deals with spatial ability etc, left with language - girls develop language earlier than boys, generally males have more developed spacial ability which is why they can park cars and find places on maps :rolleyes: - er i think Chris is right on this - but i confess i've not read it all - but my point is i don't think right brain = woman brain

I can't park a car to save my life so that theory must be right :rofl:

I was paraphrasing Chris: "Finally we have the general difference from hormones that make males more differentiating than females and so more 'precise' but also more literal minded, single context focus etc. (only have one thing on their minds!) - female bias is to integrating, pattern matching, organic over mechanistic but lacking in precision we use in Science etc but fine for social dynamics (Humanities etc)."

Personally, I find little correlation with actual woman being one way and man being another. My reference was to each person containing both elements, with a dominant trait of one or the other, i.e. hex. 1 or 2, left or right, yang or yin.

http://www.web-us.com/brain/LRBrain.html

You, for example, seem to always poo poo anything abstract or symbolic, preferring instead to reduce or eliminate answers (and change lines) to what you see as obvious and literal. From that I would deduce that you are left brain dominant.
 

Trojina

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I
You, for example, seem to always poo poo anything abstract or symbolic, preferring instead to reduce or eliminate answers (and change lines) to what you see as obvious and literal. From that I would deduce that you are left brain dominant.

What you say here seems to contradict the information from the link. According to the link left brainers have no problem with using symbols, ie words etc but right brainers have to have things concretely before them to understand - hmm glad i am left brained being right brained according to that article sounds a bit stressful. Hmm I'm not sure about that whole concept but thanks for the link anyway -

I can't really 'poo poo anything abstract or symbolic' or i wouldn't/couldn't even use the Yi would I ? Or work with my dreams or all the other weird things i do ;) And of course usually the message i get from a reading is symbolic, but just occasionally theres a very literal answer, literal to myself and that specific question, thats quite amazing - hence i was answering Laylas question of "can the yi be wholly literal" as "yes it sometimes can." By 'wholly' I do not think she meant 'only' literal ,to the exclusion of the symbolic, that would be absurd - its just it seemed thats how you took it by asking how many of us talked to pigs and fishes ? Seemed as if you thought someone here had said the Yi was only ever literal - well we wouldn't get far if it was,lol
 
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bruce_g

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I'm talking generalities here, general tendencies. Both left and right brainers could use the Yi, of course. We see a lot of left brain conversation on this forum, i.e. black/white thinking. I tend to lean way over to the right brain stuff. I'd find the Madonna's face in the script of a phone book, or an omen in a flying bird or full moon. But, I also find learning to read music a nearly impossible task, while improvising on what I hear in my head comes completely natural. People are hard wired differently.

Also, my original comment wasn't directed to you or your post specifically. Your first comment was amidst others, discussing the same thing. You do, however, seem to represent one side of the coin, just as I generally represent the other. Joint approach? ;)
 

Trojina

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Even as a left brainer I can't not see an omen - the other day a butterfly flew in my window and i have very tender feelings about butterflys - and only once before i think has one ever entered my house. After flying around a little it began to struggle trying to get out of the window but just hitting the glass and i was suddenly convinced that if i didn't get this butterfly free, unharmed it would be very bad omen somehow - it kept getting into such positions that it was very hard to catch it without hurting it but eventually i caught it in my hands and let it out of the window - but i still can't work out why it seemed such a life and death situation for me and the butterfly - it just felt like it - and watching it fly into the sky was such a relief, I don't know why, maybe my right brain is developing :D
 
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bruce_g

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heh heh...

Here, the little pyramid moths get in every time I open the front door. Nothing to do but let them die and sweep them up. No omen, just little pests that won't stay outside. See? I can be pragmatic too! :p

edit: But I admit, knowing their fate once they fly inside is less noble than if they died outside, eaten by a hungry bird. So I do make a right brain extrapolation of my left brain's pragmatic acceptance.
 
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bruce_g

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I realize that 'left/right brain' is over simplistic. It was just to illustrate a point of how different natures of people process Yi's answers differently. And that both are employed in varying degrees to do so.
 

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