Albert Huang I ching

[yamabushi]

Alfred Huang I ching

Does Anybody use Alfred Huang edition of Yi ching?
Comments?

 

[edge]

if you mean Alfred Huang, then I do! I really like it, especially his descriptions of the symbols, and the way he references the other translations and explains why he has chosen the particular name for each hexagram. I find it very clear and easy to understand.
E

 

[peter2610]

The Complete I Ching - Alfred Huang

Yes, like Edge, I also find Huang's description/explanation of the Chinese characters for each hexagram useful. I've also found his translation of the yao texts can offer a refreshing insight if I need additional clarification. His explanation of the line-texts with reference to line positions is a good introduction to understanding line relationships. In his detailed commentary section he gives the Zhi Gua for each line but unfortunately doesn't develop this in any way. All in all, a very useful book to have around. Peter

 

[heylise]

I like A. Huang a lot but not on its own. Always with a traditional translation next to it. Here and there I find him a bit too 'novel'. Like eg translating hex. 10 as 'Fulfillment'.

What I like most are his background stories. Connecting hexagrams with stories from Chinese history and myth.

LiSe

 

[bradford]

Like LiSe, yes, but not alone. It's certainly not definitive.
It's a pretty decent translation on the whole.
Better than the W-B, and less out of date, but not quite as accurate as Cleary's

 

[yamabushi]

Like LiSe, yes, but not alone. It's certainly not definitive.
It's a pretty decent translation on the whole.
Better than the W-B, and less out of date, but not quite as accurate as Cleary's

You think this;
http://www.amazon.com/Taoist-I-Ching-Thomas-Cleary/dp/0394743873

what about this;

http://www.amazon.com/I-Ching-Book-Change-Compass/dp/0140193359

Why people dont like Wu Wei edition of I ching? What s wrong with his book?

 

[bradford]

You think this;
http://www.amazon.com/Taoist-I-Ching-Thomas-Cleary/dp/0394743873

what about this;

http://www.amazon.com/I-Ching-Book-Change-Compass/dp/0140193359

Why people dont like Wu Wei edition of I ching? What s wrong with his book?

Cleary did 4 different translations. The best, IMO, accompanies his "Buddhist I Ching",
the 2nd best is his little stand-alone version. These are both pretty true to the Chinese. I didn't like the translation in the Taoist I Ching as much, or the theory of the commentary either.

Blofeld is an old classic, nice and simple, but dated. Decent auxiliary text.

Wu Wei doesn't understand the Chinese language or the Yijing. Not even close.

 

[Sparhawk]

Wu Wei doesn't understand the Chinese language or the Yijing. Not even close.

Someday, when I have the patience and a real drive for it, I'll crack the mysterious nut of whom, exactly, is this "Wu Wei" character hiding behind the obvious pseudonym...

 

[peter2610]

Wu Wei

Wu Wei is Chris Prentiss, who used the pen name Wu Wei for his series of I Ching books. For some reason, when he wrote Zen and the Art of Happiness, he used his real name. Chris Prentiss is co-founder and co-director of the world-famous Passages Substance Abuse Treatment Center, located in Malibu, California.
His pen name is very often confused with Wei Wu Wei, aka Terence Gray (1895-1986) who was born into a wealthy Irish family and raised on their country estate near Cambridge. In his middle years he developed an interest in Eastern spiritual philosophy and turned his back on his privileged lifestyle, traveling to India where he studied under Sri Ramana Maharshi. His series of books, including Ask the Awakened and Why Lazarus Laughed, are centered mostly on Buddhist and Daoist philosophy and gained him a well deserved reputation.
A lot of the confusion arises because for many years Wei Wu Wei tried to conceal his real identity and the arrival of 'Wu Wei' only added to the general bafflement. Wei Wu Wei is definitely worth reading, whereas Wu Wei....well....no way wu wei... (sorry about that - English humour, terrible handicap)

Peter

 

[yamabushi]

Ok, does anybody can say what is rally so much wrong with wu wei book? Most of the hexagrams and lines are very good explained I think...

 

[Sparhawk]

Wu Wei is Chris Prentiss, who used the pen name Wu Wei for his series of I Ching books. For some reason, when he wrote Zen and the Art of Happiness, he used his real name. Chris Prentiss is co-founder and co-director of the world-famous Passages Substance Abuse Treatment Center, located in Malibu, California.


Peter

Ha! Thanks! I learned something new today. :bows:

 

[yamabushi]

Cleary did 4 different translations. The best, IMO, accompanies his "Buddhist I Ching",
the 2nd best is his little stand-alone version. These are both pretty true to the Chinese. I didn't like the translation in the Taoist I Ching as much, or the theory of the commentary either.

Blofeld is an old classic, nice and simple, but dated. Decent auxiliary text.

Wu Wei doesn't understand the Chinese language or the Yijing. Not even close.

Does anybody have Cleary and Blofeld I ching in pdf or something like that?

 

[joty]

Yamabushi, you can try http://www.mgraeme.ic24.net/The Rivendale Review Pages/The Book of Changes.pdf
http://www.iching123.com/

 

[yamabushi]

Yamabushi, you can try http://www.mgraeme.ic24.net/The Rivendale Review Pages/The Book of Changes.pdf
http://www.iching123.com/

This iching123 looks excelent.
I found Alfred Huang and Buddist I ching from Cleary.
I think that Cleary is somehow strange and hard to understand...

 

[bradford]

I think that Cleary is somehow strange and hard to understand...

Stretch, or don't stretch. Reach, or don't reach.
The real Yijing isn't for everyone. Most people, I suspect,
need to have it repackaged to suit what or how they already think.

 

[yamabushi]

Stretch, or don't stretch. Reach, or don't reach.
The real Yijing isn't for everyone. Most people, I suspect,
need to have it repackaged to suit what or how they already think.

Well, we have to start from somewhere...
I buy Alfred Huang, found Cleary on internet, does anybody have Blofeld?

 

[yamabushi]

Me, again...does anybody know where I can found the king Wen, Duke of Zhou and especially Confucius text?

 

[bradford]

Me, again...does anybody know where I can found the king Wen, Duke of Zhou and especially Confucius text?

By tradition, the King Wen text is presented as the Tuan or Judgment, the main Hexagram text in most translations. Again by tradition, the six Changing Line texts are from the Duke of Zhou. Confucius probably didn't contribute anything to the Yi, but the texts called the Ten Wings, all ten found in most good translations, are said to be from Confucius. Some are clearly by Confusion followers, but others like the Big Image are from other schools entirely.

 

[mythili]

Here's my two-penny worth to this discussion - I got a copy of Clearly a couple of months ago, and my understanding has increased almost a million fold......

 

[yamabushi]

By tradition, the King Wen text is presented as the Tuan or Judgment, the main Hexagram text in most translations. Again by tradition, the six Changing Line texts are from the Duke of Zhou. Confucius probably didn't contribute anything to the Yi, but the texts called the Ten Wings, all ten found in most good translations, are said to be from Confucius. Some are clearly by Confusion followers, but others like the Big Image are from other schools entirely.

So Confucius or his followers did not give detail comment on every line in the text?

 

[bradford]

So Confucius or his followers did not give detail comment on every line in the text?

The comments on the lines, from the texts called the third and fourth Wings, are from somebody from an unknown school, often said to be Confucian, but to me they don't show all the characteristic tenets of Confucianism. Neither do they show a particularly astute understanding of the Zhouyi or original part of the Yijing. To me the comments are only really insightful or helpful maybe a third of the time.

 

[tuckchang]

Imho

I would like share my understanding with you as follows.

By tradition, the hexagram text was written by Zhou Wen Wang, the line text by Zhou Gong Dan (周公旦, one of Wen Wang’s sons), and Ten Wings by Confucius. To say more precisely, they should be taken for collective works; Zhou Wen Wang, Zhou Gong Dan and Confucius are regarded as the representative features of these creations.
So is Confucian thought; Confucius is the founder but not an inventor, and Confucian thought is not only limited to what Confucius has said but also inclusive of many expositions made by the scholars of later generations.

The texts of the hexagram and the line constitute Zhou Yi. Zhou Yi integrated with Ten Wings, i.e. the text to be interpreted by Ten Wings, is called the I Ching.

Tuan Zhuan 彖傳 (the commentary on the hexagram text) is the one that explains the name, the phenomenon and the text of each hexagram; it also includes some remarks made by Confucius.

Xiang Zhuan 象傳 (the commentary on the image) is composed of two sections. Generally speaking, A) 大象傳 (the commentary on the big image) for each hexagram is, somewhat independent from the hexagram name and text, to give advice on how a person should behave himself in accordance with the images presented by the hexagram. B) 小象傳 (Xiao Xiang Zhuan: the commentary on the small image) for each line mainly explains the cause or result of the line concerned according to its presenting characteristics or phenomenon .......

中 (zhong1: center, middle) and 正 (zheng4: upright) which are very often mentioned in 小象傳 (Xiao Xiang Zhuan) refer to the middle position of the bottom and the upper trigram, the right position for a line (positions 1, 3 and 5 are for Yang line, while positions 2, 4 and 6 are for Ying line), respectively. From the perspective of Confucian tenets, the middle signifies the doctrine of the mean (in short words, I call it the principle of moderation), and the right position refer to ‘to act righteously’ (in short words, to act according to the norm of a hexagram).

Most of so called ‘the I Ching’ interpretations in English elaborate Zhou Yi from the viewpoint of Taoism, they intentionally skip 小象傳 (Xiao Xiang Zhuan), sometimes Tuan Zhuan 彖傳 (the commentary on the hexagram text) as well. In my opinion, 小象傳 (Xiao Xiang Zhuan) is the guide to understand what the line text means, and also the most difficult part of interpreting Zhou Yi since it must conform to both texts.

Also for your information, usually the title of Chinese book given to a writing of interpretation without involvement of Ten Wings is called ‘…… of Zhou Yi’, while a book of interpreting Zhou Yi based on Ten Wings is titled with ‘….. of I Ching’.

Best Regards
Tuck :bows:
www.iching123.com

 

[peter2610]

Most of so called ‘the I Ching’ interpretations in English elaborate Zhou Yi from the viewpoint of Taoism, they intentionally skip 小象傳 (Xiao Xiang Zhuan), sometimes Tuan Zhuan 彖傳 (the commentary on the hexagram text) as well. In my opinion, 小象傳 (Xiao Xiang Zhuan) is the guide to understand what the line text means, and also the most difficult part of interpreting Zhou Yi since it must conform to both texts.

Thanks Tuck, for that very precise summary. I myself have always found the Xiao Xiang texts to be extremely valuable. Sometimes they simply reinforce the central meaning of the yao text but very often they add considerably more insight and penetration.

When you describe translations that exclude the Xiao Xiang Zhuan and the Tuan Zhuan as 'Taoist' in approach are you basing this on the premise that Taoists did not, by and large, generally acknowledge or employ these sections? But then this opens the question that many other publications also exclude the Xiao Xiang Zhuan and the Tuan Zhuan on the basis of being translations of the Zhou Yi, rather than being Taoist in approach - would you also classify these as being basically Taoist? Just to add to the confusion, my translation of the Taoist I Ching, by Cleary, also includes a section discussing the Great Images - so I don't know how that fits in with any redactive analysis. I'd be grateful for any further clarity you might bring to this.

 

[tuckchang]

Hi Peter,

Sorry for misunderstanding. Indeed there are also many publications in Chinese which paraphrase the text of both the hexagram and the line (without involvement of Tuan Zhuan and Xiao Xiang Zhuan) from the perspective of histories and customs in the period of Shang and Zhou, or divination ……., i.e. nothing to do with the philosophic Taoism.

What I have tried, and intend, to explain is the following; but before that I have to stress that this is just a subject of academic discussion or clarification, i.e. nothing to do with the abuse of name, since I fully understand that it might take few minutes to have people understand what is Zhou Yi, but the I Ching is self-explanatory.

According to Chinese definition, the I Ching means: to use Ten Wings to paraphrase Zhou Yi, which includes: to interpret the hexagram text based on Tuan Zhuan and the line text based on Xiao Xiang Zhuan; according to my understanding, it is very difficult to annotate the words such as 中 (zhong1) and 正 (zheng4), which appear in Tuan Zhuan and Xiao Xiang Zhuan, from Taoism’s tenets.

Ching (or Jing 經) not only signifies the classics but also can be regarded as the principle of the highest level, like the Bible (聖 sheng 經): the Ching of saint or Holy Ching. Zhou Yi became Yi Jing (or the I Ching) after Ten Wings were integrated into it, since Confucianism of Ten Wings elaborated it from the perspective of life value, interpersonal relationship, human society, etc., and made it become a philosophy of life.

This doesn’t mean the I Ching can’t be interpreted from the perspective of Taoism. But it will encounter difficulties since most parts of Ten Wings, except for Shuo Gua, relate to Confucianism. Of course, there is no need of following Ten Wings completely, but then, strictly speaking, it is called an interpretation of Zhou Yi, no matter whether it is from the perspective of Taoism or Confucianism.

Also for your information, Confucius didn’t talk about ghost and god, and his aspect was to respect them (while worshiping) but keep a distance from them (i.e. not to be superstitious); in fact there are many 享 (xiang3: to worship with sacrifices) and 廟 (miao4: the temple) in the text; Confucian paraphrase converts them into the terms such as: to exhibit sincerity & trust, to declare the legitimacy at the shrine ….; on the other hand many Confucians do talk divination and practice divination, which much relate to human nature and religion; Chinese Buddhism is mixed with religious Taoism’s culture. Usually we take divination for a power of religious Taoism.

Best regards
Tuck :bows:
www.iching123.com

 

[peter2610]

This doesn’t mean the I Ching can’t be interpreted from the perspective of Taoism. But it will encounter difficulties since most parts of Ten Wings, except for Shuo Gua, relate to Confucianism. Of course, there is no need of following Ten Wings completely, but then, strictly speaking, it is called an interpretation of Zhou Yi, no matter whether it is from the perspective of Taoism or Confucianism.

Hello Tuck and thanks for your further clarification.

I fully accept your point that the I Ching, as the received text including the ten wings, can be seen as the "High Church" version of the Zhou Yi, and that in this format it is heavily embedded with Confucianist principles. From a divination point of view, these principles clearly fall readily into an extensive social and moral cosmology that can be used to guide our interpretation. I feel it might be useful, however, to outline one or two principles regarding the Taoist approach to interpretation.

As you are no doubt aware, Taoism encompasses many different schools of thought containing wide variations in practice and approach. A number of these schools focussed on meditation and the cultivation of inner growth and perception. Because the inner dimensions of consciousness are essentially abstract without material identity, some of these schools devised a system of terms to identify the inner conscious, unconscious and emotional processes - this system came to be described as "Inner Alchemy." The purpose of these terms was not, initially, to surround inner processes with an arcane cloak of mystery (although that is precisely how some schools developed the system) but, rather to explicate and objectify these processes so as to make them more easily identifiable to the novice. The goal of this practice was not theistic, these schools were not focussed upon any of the hundreds of minor deities found within the Taoist Cosmology, but rather were focussed upon the abstract principles of philosophical Taoism, as set out by Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu. The ultimate purpose was the removal of habitual conditioning (mundane conscious processes) and the realization, understanding and perception of balanced Essence.

To this end, the Zhou Yi was employed by Taoists as an extremely adept tool in guiding the student through the labyrinth of internal abstract processes encountered along the path to realization. An important part of this process was the balanced formation of aggregates (holding to the central mean) and the discrimination of false yin/yang from their true counterparts. The line positions are often held as symbolizing these qualities. Many of the inner psychological/emotional processes of Classical Psychology are represented within this system, albeit in a vastly different terminology. In this sense, the Taoist approach to the Zhou Yi is one of insightful self-cultivation and increased true perception. Throughout its long history many have argued that this inner self-development is the true purpose of the "I Ching". There is no doubt that following a Confucianist interpretation leads to the development of many of these principles; just as the pursuit of Ren, Yi, Xin and Li lead to increased moral perception and awareness, so the Taoist qualities of Rectitude, Refining Consciousness, Balancing Life and Essence etc. likewise lead to greater moral and self-awareness. Arguably, of even greater importance, is the Taoist emphasis on Essence which can be described as "Meaning" in its most abstract form. Whereas many schools of Buddhism proceed directly from Sunyata to Nirvana, by a purely negative definition, Taoism recognizes the fundamental dualism of phenomena as the creative generator of Essence, or Meaning. Hence the ultimate abstract reality in Taoism is a very wholistic one, similar if not identical to certain Mahayana Buddhist Schools. Both disciplines carry a deep understanding of the essential emptiness and relativity of phenomena, and indeed it is not really possible to fully understand Essence without a profound grasp of Sunyata.

I'm not arguing here for the priority of one approach over the other, I regard the Confucianist and Taoist approaches as having equal value, and equal application with the Zhou Yi/I Ching. But I thought it worth pointing out that abstract Taoist values do translate across very readily to the textual and structural content of the Oracle.