Another turn of the screw around H.44 GOU: almost a prostitute or a Princess?

[charly]

Margaret J. PEARSON pioneered a FEMINST approach reading the Zhouyi, the core of the Yijing. For her GOU was a PRINCESS rather than almost a PROSTITUTE, a CONCUBINE or a SLAVE. Below her translation of Hex.44, GOU:

(QUOTE)
44 姤 (gòu) The Royal Bride (1)

The woman is great. Do not grab the woman. A royal bride [was met with great ceremony,] not taken by force.

• Six in the first place: Bound together with a golden spindle. Persevering brings good fortune. Though [you] have a place to go, you face misfortune. With a scrawny piglet to sacrifice, you hesitate.

• Nine in the second place: A fish is in wrappings (conception). No blame. Do not entertain guests.

• Nine in the third place: Buttocks without skin. Her actions halt repeatedly. She hesitates before proceeding. Danger but not much blame.

• Nine in the fourth place: Wrappings but no fish (fetus). True misfortune.

• Nine in the fifth place: She protects the babe within, just as a gourd is protected by being wrapped in flexible willow twigs. You hold great beauty within you. If you miscarry, this is Heaven’s will.

• Nine at the top: The royal bride’s horns. Danger but no blame.

Image
Below the sky, a wind: the image of the royal bride. [As gentle and persistent as the wind,] the queen spreads her influence and makes proclamations which reach the four corners of the world.

Margaret J. Pearson, Ph.D.:
The Original I Ching. An authentic translation of the Book of Changes. Based on recent discoveries.
Tuttle Publishing. Copyright © 2011 Margaret J. Pearson

(End of QUOTE)

Soon (but I don't promise how soon) an alternative, almost literal translation, the another turn of the screw
Nobody´s perfect!.

All the best,

Charly
___________________________________________
(1) 姤, gòu: copulate / good // 遘, gòu: meet unexpectedly
Ch.

 

[remod]

I never understood why some translator seems obsessed with forcing a specific meaning on the I Ching.
I'm not familiar with this translation but for a "feminist" approach, it seems pretty sexist to me.
It's full of "conception", "fetus", "miscarrying", "protecting babies", being "gentle as the wind". As if those are the only aspects a woman would be interested in.

Well, I'm not a woman so I can't be certain but I guess that if the translator was a man, there would be plenty jumping at his throat for such a narrow interpretation.

I believe that everyone is entitled to their opinion, but the title claiming this to be "Original" and "Authentic" and, even, "based on recent studies", really annoys me.

 

[my_key]

Hi Charley

An interesting insight in the background of these lines alluding to a theme of conception and pregnancy is the bit in her commentary where she says

Just as the winds sweep over the whole world, her influence may transform her new country. However, first she must conceive and bear a healthy son.

44 follows 43 where there has be a bit of a spring clean and a call to moving forward. Here in 44 we seem to be following a call to allow that comes to come. there is a new babe full of potential on the way and while it is good practice to protect this embryonic few life form, it may be that through no fault of anyone that it withers without being born. Perhaps carrying a sentiment of God's will.

The Bride can only be the bearer of potential new birth, this hexagram may well relate to the gestation period only. Not surprisingly the Bride can be a bit of a dangerous beast at line 6 after not having had the potential beauty inside actually born. If the new beauty is actually born we probably have to wait until 46 for this to be seen.

Margaret Pearson has walked her own path with her book through what she sees as a peeling away of encrusted dogma and an empowerment of the feminine aspect that had long been given bad press in other translations. It is good to see her work given an airing.

Also, nice to see your unique style and take on the verses back in the forum. Can't wait for the next turn of the screw.

 

[charly]

I never understood why some translator seems obsessed with forcing a specific meaning on the I Ching.
I'm not familiar with this translation but for a "feminist" approach, it seems pretty sexist to me.

Pearson is not forcing anything, her approach try to purge the translation of of the Zhouyi of male supremacy ideology that is not present in the Zhouyi but appears only in the later commentarial tradition, say the Yijing. it´s not sexist but feminist.

It's full of "conception", "fetus", "miscarrying", "protecting babies", being "gentle as the wind". As if those are the only aspects a woman would be interested in.

It's only matter of translation. The sort o things about what is interested the H.44 Gou.

I believe that everyone is entitled to their opinion, but the title claiming this to be "Original" and "Authentic" and, even, "based on recent studies", really annoys me.

Pearson was her own editor. It´s understandable that she allowed herself the use of some ingenue marketing but she is not a pretentious person.

All the best,

Charly

 

[charly]

Hi Charley

An interesting insight in the background of these lines alluding to a theme of conception and pregnancy is the bit in her commentary where she says 44 follows 43 where there has be a bit of a spring clean and a call to moving forward. Here in 44 we seem to be following a call to allow that comes to come. there is a new babe full of potential on the way and while it is good practice to protect this embryonic few life form, it may be that through no fault of anyone that it withers without being born. Perhaps carrying a sentiment of God's will.

I like the Pearson´s point of view but I believe that her translation needs another turn of the screw.

The Bride can only be the bearer of potential new birth, this hexagram may well relate to the gestation period only. Not surprisingly the Bride can be a bit of a dangerous beast at line 6 after not having had the potential beauty inside actually born. If the new beauty is actually born we probably have to wait until 46 for this to be seen.

I believe that Pearson´s «Bride» is a Princes not only unmarried, but virginal, who will get pregnant and give birth to a Royal Heir by marvelous means, If she does not get pregnant she will not be Gou.

Margaret Pearson has walked her own path with her book through what she sees as a peeling away of encrusted dogma and an empowerment of the feminine aspect that had long been given bad press in other translations. It is good to see her work given an airing.

Of course! But the traditional comentarial tradition is strong, male supremacy has good press, feminism not.

Also, nice to see your unique style and take on the verses back in the forum. Can't wait for the next turn of the screw.

I believe that Gou was a forgery, a mith that Dynasty Founders put in circulation because they always lacked of legitymacy papers. The conflict between the hereditary principle and the merit principle.

The Dynasty Founder pretend not have known mother as if he had fallen from the sky to be a Heaven´s´Son and that his mother, GOU, got pregnant by swallowing a bird´s egg, stepping on a footprint, meeting unexpectedly with a dragon in the wilderness or other dubious means.

Gou later passes atop of the dynastic line, isolated, unmarried, without consolation say without possibility of a new marriage in the other world.

All the best,

Charly

 

[charly]

Here an almost literal translation of 44.3:

臀旡膚
tun2 wu2 fu1
BUTTOCKS WITHOUT SKIN
His buttocks were without skin,

其行次且厲旡大咎
qi2 xing2 ci4 qie3 li4 wu2 da4 jiu4
HIS MARCH SICKLY AND DANGEROUS NOT MAJOR CALAMITY
His march was sickly and dangerous. Not a major calamity (1)
​

Can anyone believe that this line talks about the princess's buttocks? Many people believe that the Princess was naked, NAKED!

GOU was but an intermediary between Heavens and the Male Heir to whom she gave birth miraculously, say keeping herself virginal. Did you imagine her naked?

Do you think the heir would have liked it? To him, who will become the founder of a new dynasty?

Some people prefer to imagine GOU naked. Nobody´s perfect. Compliant with the bad press given to H.44 by the later comentarial traditioin.

What if 44.3 is speaking , say, of YU the GREAT buttocks?

Yu was a CULTURAL HERO as such must have had a wonderful birth. Yu and GOU shared that both had a strong commitment with people welfare.

But Yu was male, GOU female. YU lacked the genetic mandate. It was said that his job taming the waters did n´t allow him to enter his house (3) and meeting with his wife (4).

Say 44.3 is speaking about what is not the matter H.44 but a more general case of marvellous birthing.

True: it is more stimulating to imagine GOU naked than Yu, no matters how great he had been. People think so. Nobody´s perfect!

All the best,

Charly
_________________________
(1) The Pace of YU: Yu had become hemiplegic.
(2)If the Princess didn´t give birth to a male heir she will not become Gou, think on «womb without fish»
(3) Enter his house: well known euphemism for having sexual intercourse.
(4) Meeting with his wife: another well known euphemism for having sexual intercourse. Must be said that there was a hope for his wife to get pregnant: participating in the Jiao Mei ritual for avoiding childbirthlessness, but tha's another story.
Ch.

 

[my_key]

Hi Charly
An interesting interpretation but not one I can buy in to entirely. Perhaps, I don't know enough about Yu and his life and times, or especially his sex life.

I think back to a time after a bicycling accident where having slid a good distance on gravel one of my buttocks was without skin. My march certainly took on a sickly gait, but with nothing majorly dangerous about it. It was painful to walk, painful while it healed and whilst a calamity there was nothing majorly wrong.

For me, this part of the verse is more aligned with acknowledging the marks and scars of a serious wound. A wound that will cause life changes but not changes that are insurmountable.

I had to look up what 'hemiplegic' meant ( I've learnt a new word today- thanks!)

A common disability that results from stroke is complete paralysis on one side of the body, called hemiplegia.

In my mind, complete paralysis would be a major calamity but in line 3 we are told that what is going on is not a major calamity. The way we walk in the world will be painful and difficult, for a while, but we will not be totally incapacitated especially as line 3 carries an essence that alludes to inner rebalancing of our emotions, beliefs and ability to evaluate our self worth. The line I think speaks to the manner in which we face the pain and difficulty that has been laid bare.

Margaret Pearson translates 44.3 as

Buttocks without skin
Her actions halt repeatedly. She hesitates before proceeding. Danger but not much blame​

The 2nd and 3rd sentences certainly brings back memories (45 years later) of how I embraced walking immediately after the accident. Lots of stop and start and anxious about taking another step because I knew that coming with it was a dose of pain.

I am quite at ease visualising all the hexagrams naked, it removes unnecessary accoutrements that may cloud matters. Pearson's 44.2 speaks of a point of conception and 44.4 to the true misfortune of a potential miscarriage. So in the space between conception and miscarriage comes a verse which is joined to Hex 57 which Pearson names 'Calculation, Choosing' which calls for small acts to be made for to bring about successful movement.

In that respect I can align my thinking with your idea

Say 44.3 is speaking about what is not the matter H.44 but a more general case of marvellous birthing

I would interpret this as 44.3 pointing you towards adapting to or embracing the pain of the process in small, smart, humble and productive ways. The pain of the skinless buttocks can not be escaped from and isbest endured within a positive 'can do' framework. Acting in this manner brings a 'marvellous birthing'. Any other way that goes against the flow of the process, tries to avoid it, or brings vastly dramatic or exaggerated overtones to the situation is only going to lead to a miscarriage and a more troublesome fate.

 

[Trojina]

Charlie I am picking bits out bits and pieces here possibly without getting the full gist but I'm wondering about your use of the expression 'another turn of the screw' and why you've used it so much here?

I don't know if you are aware that 'screw' in the UK is slang for copulation but given you're making the 44 woman more or less an item of lust here, despite imagining you have a feminist sensibility on it, for me it's sort of coming over as double entendre and I'm not sure if that's intentional or not.

The actual meaning of 'another turn of the screw' as a saying is, looking it up from the Cambridge dictionary is ' an action that makes a bad situation worse'. I can't see how that applies here either

Of course! But the traditional comentarial tradition is strong, male supremacy has good press, feminism not.

There is nothing that called be called feminist about your ideas on this line IMO, quite the reverse in fact and when you wrote...working through the post

​

Can anyone believe that this line talks about the princess's buttocks? Many people believe that the Princess was naked, NAKED!

Somehow you have turned the story of the wasting of the thighs of Yu the great into a great excitement about a naked woman's buttocks. Fantastic - a feminist angle might be the female here is one who cannot be subsumed in marriage, she has her own agenda, she's not only an object for the male gaze which is precisely what you make her into. I doubt she's that enamoured of her own buttocks.

Do I believe it? No it does not talk about a Princess's backside but perhaps you like the idea of it

But Yu was male, GOU female. YU lacked the genetic mandate. It was said that his job taming the waters did n´t allow him to enter his house (3) and meeting with his wife (4).

Say 44.3 is speaking about what is not the matter H.44 but a more general case of marvellous birthing.

True: it is more stimulating to imagine GOU naked than Yu, no matters how great he had been. People think so. Nobody´s perfect!

I think it's this last sentence that shows what you have here is anything but a feminist angle on 44, in bold.

You're saying are you not that it is more stimulating to imagine the female, GOU, naked than the male, Yu, and that 'people think so'. Think about this statement for a minute. Do you think that women would prefer to see Gou naked than Yu? Women are 'people' right, but here you made all people male and heterosexual like yourself and you then told us this is what people think, they want to see a naked woman not a naked man. It's astonishing that you would imagine this is a feminist take, you just made her an object of desire for men, you left women, half the population completely out of the picture.

In most of your posts that is the case, you tend to objectify the female always as an object of desire nothing more, nothing in her own right, always nubile and only as she is in relation to males. A feminist take on 44 really would not be that the woman is only an object of desire....and 'oooh look her butt is naked yum'....Your view as your view is what it is but you have to realise this view off the 44 woman here is about as far from feminist as it gets, you just reduced her to something 'people' would prefer to see and when you say 'people' you mean heterosexual men since women do have access to their own backsides and may actually prefer to see Yu naked as indeed may many men.

In general I find the idea of Yu the great's thighs wasting being turned into a naked woman's booty unconvincing to say the least but what is a bit much is you packaging your view as a feminist one. It really isn't. I suggest, and it's up to you of course, you share your ideas as you wish but refrain from labelling them 'feminist' since they are very antithesis of that.

 

[remod]

I suggest, and it's up to you of course, you share your ideas as you wish but refrain from labelling them 'feminist' since they are very antithesis of that.

Thanks for saying that, Trojina. I wrote the same sentiment in my first reply but being a man I doubted my ability to get what a "feminist" point of view would be.
Not feeling qualified for that, I usually refrain from commenting on interpretations or translations but the view presented here seems extremely forced to me (and not 'feminist' at all).

To me, 44 has always signified a time when something that could be considered harmless is, indeed, powerful and potentially dangerous. Hence the indications to handle the situation with great care and deep consideration. Yes, using a maiden to represent "harmless" is sexist in our modern sensibility but I still can condone some guy making this parallel 3000 years ago.

I fail to understand how talking about birth, miscarriage, being naked, and so on helps in interpreting the answer you received. Quite the contrary, it seems to me that it adds a very one-sided view of the situation depriving you of getting "what it means to you, in your specific context". ("you" is "impersonal" in the previous sentence).

But this is just my view. As I said, my view may be too shallow to understand the point here.

 

[my_key]

It is worth noting that Margaret Pearson is not as such a feminist but an academic who is seeking to readdress the way in which yin and the feminine quality was portrayed in early I Ching works such as that by Wang Bi. Legge when translating Wang Bi's work brought the concept of yin / feminine and yang masculine to the fore and this concept it appears was echoed in later translations too. The balance of understanding was skewed through the social constructs that existed around male and female roles in those way off days.

Pearson in her introduction claims that originally yin and yang were not assigned to the lines. Lines in transition were originally seen as 6 or 9 and the change was viewed as either a "transition from strength (solidity) to weakness (broken) or from extreme weakness to strength".

Pearson attempts in her translation to to redress the gender imbalance and provide alternative images to consider as "one step toward truer wisdom".

Perhaps it is important to record here that Pearson notes, on P25 of her book

But the fresh translation presented here directs our attention to the positive meaning of a time when two states have achieved peace and sealed the alliance with a marriage linking the famiklies. The woman arriving is the Royal Bride, and she is honoured by a welcoming committee of the highest dignitories which, like the great "King" Wen. has met her on the road before she has reached her destination.The pregnancy images in the lines refer to the hope of an heir who will embody this alliance, a doubly royal son with such a strong claim to the succession that civil conflict may be averted,

Pearson (italics) adjusts the traditional translations of the judgement and the image for Hex 44:

Judgement
The woman is great. Do not grab the woman.
A royal bride was met with great ceremony, not taken by force

Image

Below the sky, a wind: the image of the royal bride. As gentle and persistent as the wind, the queen spreads her influence and makes proclamations which reach the four corners of the world.

This I think ably demonstrates the subtle realigning she brings to the feminine principal in her translation rather than seeing her work purely as a feminist stance strongly advocating women's rights on the basis of the equality of the sexes.

 

[remod]

Judgement
The woman is great. Do not grab the woman.
A royal bride was met with great ceremony, not taken by force

Image

Below the sky, a wind: the image of the royal bride. As gentle and persistent as the wind, the queen spreads her influence and makes proclamations which reach the four corners of the world.

This I think ably demonstrates the subtle realigning she brings to the feminine principal in her translation rather than seeing her work purely as a feminist stance strongly advocating women's rights on the basis of the equality of the sexes.

Well, you pointed, answering to MojoMMM, that 44 has "sense of being open and accepting to what comes your way", and I pointed out more to the need of acting cautiously and aware of the situation.

The italic parts, seem, to me, a watered-down version of the I Ching text. "The royal bride must be treated with great ceremony and not taken by force", yes, sure, (it's royalty, after all) but then what? Where is the acceptance or the wariness of a dangerous situation?

"The queen spreads her influence". Nice, but I don't see the exhortation to act decisively, in times like these, and clearly communicate to everyone decisions and instructions, which is something I always considered important in hex. 44.

Again, I'm not an academic, nor an expert. I might just be biased by my own way of reading it.

 

[Trojina]

Thanks for saying that, Trojina. I wrote the same sentiment in my first reply but being a man I doubted my ability to get what a "feminist" point of view would be.

Possibly there would be a variety of opinions about what a feminist view would be and that's because there isn't really one feminism in the way there isn't one socialism, there's different emphases or schools of thought within it. But in any case I'd hope the word 'feminist' would at least cover the woman as human and not only an item for consumption as depicted by Charlie when he said

True: it is more stimulating to imagine GOU naked than Yu, no matters how great he had been. People think so.

To me, 44 has always signified a time when something that could be considered harmless is, indeed, powerful and potentially dangerous. Hence the indications to handle the situation with great care and deep consideration. Yes, using a maiden to represent "harmless" is sexist in our modern sensibility but I still can condone some guy making this parallel 3000 years ago.

Bradford Hatcher always said we must take the woman in 44 metaphorically as being a seductive and powerful influence that can derail a person, throw them off track, make them unwise. I tend to hold to his view most since that view holds a great deal in my in real life readings and the readings I see of others. It's often something that throws one off track, pulls one in, imposes an agenda not of one's own and often has to to with being used in others agenda. On the more positive side people say this new intrusive force with it's own agenda can reawaken inspiration, can provide an impetus for new developments hence pregnancy imagery and so on.

I fail to understand how talking about birth, miscarriage, being naked, and so on helps in interpreting the answer you received. Quite the contrary, it seems to me that it adds a very one-sided view of the situation depriving you of getting "what it means to you, in your specific context". ("you" is "impersonal" in the previous sentence).

Yep, there's a discrepancy between those who focus only on translatingYi and those who use Yi in readings for their actual lives. I don't think I have ever seen Charlie mention a reading of his own or look at a reading (maybe once), he's totally focused on translating in a vacuum really without trying to apply it in any way. I don't mean for that to sound disparaging, different people approach Yi differently with different angles of interest but for those who consult Yi regularly I don't think we're likely to jump to agreement when someone making their own translation tells us X means Y because they have reordered a few chinese characters here and there.I have asked Charlie a number of times how he'd put his ideas into use in real life readings about mundane things. If you think 44.3 is a woman with naked buttocks Charlie then how would read it in answer to the question 'Guiding principle for choosing a dentist in this town?' for example.

I know which means most to me for 44.3 in actual readings and the princess's naked buttocks aren't making me especially excited. Moreover I have of course lived through many 44.3 experiences and it's a hard line to live through and so telling me it's about a woman with no pants on doesn't really cut it.

Pearson's ideas aren't new they have been influential for some time I think in our ways of thinking about 44. See LiSe on 44 for a start

Hex.44

www.yijing.nl

She does talk about being naked in line 3. I think the point of the thighs being wasted in line 3 are through exhaustion not about being naked but still.

Again, I'm not an academic, nor an expert.

Nor am I but I don't think that's always a disadvantage

 

[my_key]

Well, you pointed, answering to MojoMMM, that 44 has "sense of being open and accepting to what comes your way", and I pointed out more to the need of acting cautiously and aware of the situation.

Yes I did say that in the other thread. I agree that when Coming to Meet something it is always wise to bring awareness with you and have caution simmering on a back burner.

The italic parts, seem, to me, a watered-down version of the I Ching text. "The royal bride must be treated with great ceremony and not taken by force", yes, sure, (it's royalty, after all) but then what? Where is the acceptance or the wariness of a dangerous situation?

I think that is what Margaret Pearson is doing with her translation. I do not know if watering down is the term she would use based on the overall tone of her book. However, you are entitled to see her words in the way you find most acceptable to you.

Acceptance does not mean that you have to surrender yourself to her views or perspective. After all, holding them at arms length, and seeing them as watered down. seems to apply an appropriate level of caution. At the same time you engage with them with curiosity ( 2 questions) and in so doing meet her words with honour and respect. Perhaps, you are taking appropriate actions while you are ascertaining what kind of 'danger' may be emanating from this powerful female.

Certainly, from your reply, it appears you do not want to grab these words and embrace them fully. The danger might be that it dishevels your comfortable understanding of Hex 44.

"The queen spreads her influence". Nice, but I don't see the exhortation to act decisively, in times like these, and clearly communicate to everyone decisions and instructions, which is something I always considered important in hex. 44.

In the long term these posts may bring about a change in how you view Hex 44. A seed of influence has been planted. There is already an influence at work around Margaret Pearson, somewhere blowing in the wind, when you observed in one of the above posts

"......the title claiming this to be "Original" and "Authentic" and, even, "based on recent studies", really annoys me."

The 'conception' point has already been passed, it seems. Maybe, annoyance has been grasped. I wonder, though, the nature of this queen that will now spread her influence and the decisions and instructions that she is spreading to the four corners of your world. It is important to remember that you may not even be aware of the influence. It is carrying this lack of awareness that really reveals the potential dangerousness warned of in this hexagram. The essence of the hexagram for me is meeting the danger, or perceived danger, with an an appropriate level of strength. This is vital.

Below the sky, a wind: the image of the royal bride. As gentle and persistent as the wind, the queen spreads her influence and makes proclamations which reach the four corners of the world.

Again, I'm not an academic, nor an expert. I might just be biased by my own way of reading it.

I'm not an academic either, or an expert for that matter. I hold my own views which I'm sure have elements of bias and even prejudice, abounding within them.

 

[charly]

Hi Charly
An interesting interpretation but not one I can buy in to entirely. Perhaps, I don't know enough about Yu and his life and times, or especially his sex life.

HI, you are not alone thinking that the buttocks don't belong to YU the Great, but I thing so, wich is not strange; given to the hologrammatic, polysemic nature of the changes many apparently contradictory ideas are always true.

Another turn of the screw with 44.3: LISE HEYBOER 1999-2005:



No matters how well will fit an almost literal translation of 44.3 to the perfil of Yu the Great LISE 1999-2005 thinks that the buttocks belong to GOU meaning that she was NAKED! And that this comdition was a must if she wanted to bring a LAWFUL HEIR



GOU will be the one who gives birth to the Heir by ordinary carnal coupling, not by marvellous, virginal means like swallowing bird’s eggs or stepping into giant footprints, as passed with some mythical unmarried mothers of dynasty founders.

Lise 1999-2005’s tranmslation is a transaction between modernists ideas and old commentarial traditions. She opens the fields of 44.3 interpretation: the motif of Queen and King mating into the moath looks outstanding.

Maybe it was the remnant of an old agricultural ritual yet forgoten where Queens and Kings were helping the fecondity of cosmic forces. The hyerogamy of Sun and Moon, Heaven ans Earth and the like, which is always of sexual nature, as attested in H. 1 ans H.2. The character usually translated INTERCOURSE is jiao, say, SEXUAL INTERCOURSE. Mybe also another remnant of an old agricultural ritual performed for helping the crop’s fertility.

Forgoten rituals that evolve into the Jiao Mei ritual of later times, always mating in the wilds, or at least I think so.

All the best,

Charly

 

[my_key]

Hi Charly
I agree that there are many possible interpretations and many illusory aspects to all that has been written before. Similarly, just because a perspective is carries a contradiction to the existing themes it doesn't mean it is right or wrong: neither should it be discarded without exploration.

I can certainly align myself with parts of your perspective when reading LiSe's words of 'The Lawful Heir' commentary you quote.
I can see the powerful woman here as a potential manifestation of ancestral temptations or woundedness (skinless buttocks), yet to be addressed or healed down the long generational line. The temptations, are indeed, held fast in the ego and we do build high protective walls around us to keep the temptations at arms length. Letting them in is a huge risk that could even lead to annihilation. Therefore we can very easily fall into a stupor based in our vulnerabilities. We become a husk of who we could be.

Here in another (later?) quote from LiSe's website she speaks of this:

9 at 3: The buttocks without skin. One moves haltingly moreover. Danger. Without great fault.
The heart enters everything new too impulsive. But the heart can also notice immediately if anything feels wrong: listen to it. If you change right in the beginning, it is still possible to make a new start and make your voyage or enterprise a prosperous one. And: For making a heir one has to take off all make-believe and stand naked. If you really want to accomplish something together, then show yourself with all your good and bad assets. That way your start will lack decorum, but it will be healthy.

44.3 with it's links to Hex 6 holds a measure of the ancestral contention that can arise and the blocks that have become cemented down the generations. Hex 6 advocates the making of plans before taking action. Modern day parlance of risk v reward analysis. As our unique, individual role in the generational healing it is necessary to fertilise the situation in some way. We have to step away to be able see things outside of the clouds, fog and murky false truths of the generations as it is only by doing this do we healthily serve ourselves and our ancestors. This, for me, is the nakedness that has to be embraced.

Hex 44 tells us that we are all best served by becoming conscious of the elephant in the room, however, we do not need to eat the elephant in one bite. The size, magnitude, timing, location and direction of our creative step, our first mouthful, is entirely of our choice. What is important is not so much what we do but that we do something while at the same time doing the work in an honourable and respectful way. This I think is why Pearson says:

A royal bride was met with great ceremony, not taken by force

Not attempting to force the situation that will birth a new heir. A different heir than the stagnant one that has been passed down the generations. The new heir comes, solely, from our commitment to how far and how consistently we engage with respect to the level of risk we are prepared to undertake. The heir embodies a healing step towards wholeness, and he can only be manifest by the manner in which we face the pain and difficulty that has been laid bare before us.

As LiSe says:

The great image says: Everywhere under Heaven there is Wind: birthing. The prince carries out his mandate, proclaiming it to the four regions.

There is no doubt that the research you have undertaken shines a different light based in Chinese history and the great Yu. My understanding of this Hexagram is based in different fields, although I do not think we are far apart in what the main message of the hexagram is.

I do concur with you that there are many forgotten rituals and initiations, many of which encompassed sex and sexual intercourse to provide a large energetic catalyst. Similarly there were many rituals and initiations that did not employ sexual energy. All over the world and not just in China, rituals and initiations were in place to ensure a warding of our lineage and the birthing of a healthy heir. Sadly, many have fallen by the wayside. More is the pity.

Take Care

 

[charly]

Hi Charly
I agree that there are many possible interpretations and many illusory aspects to all that has been written before. Similarly, just because a perspective is carries a contradiction to the existing themes it doesn't mean it is right or wrong: neither should it be discarded without exploration.

I can certainly align myself with parts of your perspective when reading LiSe's words of 'The Lawful Heir' commentary you quote.
I can see the powerful woman here as a potential manifestation of ancestral temptations or woundedness (skinless buttocks), yet to be addressed or healed down the long generational line. The temptations, are indeed, held fast in the ego and we do build high protective walls around us to keep the temptations at arms length. Letting them in is a huge risk that could even lead to annihilation. Therefore we can very easily fall into a stupor based in our vulnerabilities. We become a husk of who we could be.

Here in another (later?) quote from LiSe's website she speaks of this:

44.3 with it's links to Hex 6 holds a measure of the ancestral contention that can arise and the blocks that have become cemented down the generations. Hex 6 advocates the making of plans before taking action. Modern day parlance of risk v reward analysis. As our unique, individual role in the generational healing it is necessary to fertilise the situation in some way. We have to step away to be able see things outside of the clouds, fog and murky false truths of the generations as it is only by doing this do we healthily serve ourselves and our ancestors. This, for me, is the nakedness that has to be embraced.

Hex 44 tells us that we are all best served by becoming conscious of the elephant in the room, however, we do not need to eat the elephant in one bite. The size, magnitude, timing, location and direction of our creative step, our first mouthful, is entirely of our choice. What is important is not so much what we do but that we do something while at the same time doing the work in an honourable and respectful way. This I think is why Pearson says:



Not attempting to force the situation that will birth a new heir. A different heir than the stagnant one that has been passed down the generations. The new heir comes, solely, from our commitment to how far and how consistently we engage with respect to the level of risk we are prepared to undertake. The heir embodies a healing step towards wholeness, and he can only be manifest by the manner in which we face the pain and difficulty that has been laid bare before us.

As LiSe says:


There is no doubt that the research you have undertaken shines a different light based in Chinese history and the great Yu. My understanding of this Hexagram is based in different fields, although I do not think we are far apart in what the main message of the hexagram is.

I do concur with you that there are many forgotten rituals and initiations, many of which encompassed sex and sexual intercourse to provide a large energetic catalyst. Similarly there were many rituals and initiations that did not employ sexual energy. All over the world and not just in China, rituals and initiations were in place to ensure a warding of our lineage and the birthing of a healthy heir. Sadly, many have fallen by the wayside. More is the pity.

Take Care

Hi Mike:

I understand that you give great importance to CONTENTION as moral mandate for the community welfare while I am speaking of forgotewn rituals that evolve towards mythical stories like that of QUEENS and KINGS mating in the FURROW for the fecondity of plowghed fields. Maybe the reason why in so many cultures TO PLOW meant TO HAVE SEXUAL INTERCOURSE.

Of course that my perspective is biassed, the mine is a niche, but «nobody's perfect!» (1)

All the best,

Charly
____________________________________
(1) A niche bua not without reasons:

Ch.

 

[charly]

Possibly there would be a variety of opinions about what a feminist view would be and that's because there isn't really one feminism in the way there isn't one socialism, there's different emphases or schools of thought within it. But in any case I'd hope the word 'feminist' would at least cover the woman as human and not only an item for consumption as depicted by Charlie when he said
charly said:
True: it is more stimulating to imagine GOU naked than Yu, no matters how great he had been. People think so.

Hi, Trojina:
I've used the concept FEMINISM in a wide sense when speaking of Pearson´s translation that tries to purge the Changes of male superiority issue that don't apear in the Zhouyi but in more later comentarial tradition.

Bradford Hatcher always said we must take the woman in 44 metaphorically as being a seductive and powerful influence that can derail a person, throw them off track, make them unwise...

I dont like to speak about Hatcher, but I did never accept his translation of the MWD as Bitch or hs views against feminism scatred elsewhere. We had arrived to a mutual affect in spite of our differences.

... Yep, there's a discrepancy between those who focus only on translatingYi and those who use Yi in readings for their actual lives. I don't think I have ever seen Charlie mention a reading of his own or look at a reading (maybe once), he's totally focused on translating in a vacuum really without trying to apply it in any way..

I believe that the work of translation have different goals than the work of interpretation. When consulting one must build one's own adaptations of the text tha's reading.
True that passed many years without give consults. Many years that I'm focusing more and more on alternative translation.

Pearson's ideas aren't new they have been influential for some time I think in our ways of thinking about 44. See LiSe on 44 for a start

Hex.44

www.yijing.nl

She does talk about being naked in line 3. I think the point of the thighs being wasted in line 3 are through exhaustion not about being naked but still.
...

Lise passed from translate GOU as COPULATION in 2005 to translte as BIRTHING years later. NAKEDNESS was a condition for BRINGING a HEIR by ordinary CARNAL MEANS,

Not by outstanding marvellous means QUEEPING VIRGINITY, a special case of the MYTH OF BIRTHING OF THE HERO, the case of the VIRGINAL MOTHER OF SOME DYNASTY FOUNDERS, always loose of legitimacy papers.

Charlie I am picking bits out bits and pieces here possibly without getting the full gist but I'm wondering about your use of the expression 'another turn of the screw' and why you've used it so much here?

I don't know if you are aware that 'screw' in the UK is slang for copulation but given you're making the 44 woman more or less an item of lust here, despite imagining you have a feminist sensibility on it, for me it's sort of coming over as double entendre and I'm not sure if that's intentional or not.

It was not intentional but, of course, not without unconscious motives

The actual meaning of 'another turn of the screw' as a saying is, looking it up from the Cambridge dictionary is ' an action that makes a bad situation worse'. I can't see how that applies here either

I've used the term TURN in the sence of a radical change. I was reading a story of the SCREWDRIVER and it inspired me. But radical changes acumulated throw the times then ANOTHER, not the last, surely
So I arrive to the title ANOTHER TURN OF THE SCREW

Etymonline says;
turn (n.) c. 1200, "action of rotating," from Anglo-French tourn (Old French torn, tour), from Latin tornus "turning lathe;" also partly from turn (v.). Meaning "an act of turning, a single revolution or part of a revolution" is attested from late 15c.

There is nothing that called be called feminist about your ideas on this line IMO, quite the reverse in fact and when you wrote...working through the post
...

Dear Trojina, I was born in the first half of the past century, I cannot get rid of the cultural influence of that times, I've never said to be a feminist.

In general I find the idea of Yu the great's thighs wasting being turned into a naked woman's booty unconvincing ...

I see a great confussion in your words. I never imagine that GOU can go naked or showing the skinless buttocks until I reread LISE 20005 44.3. Before it, GOU was in The Turn of the Screw, a mere intermediary between the divinity, DI or HEAVEN, and the DYNASTY FOUNDER, who will pretend to be son of the Divinity. She get pregnant by marvellous means, like eating a bir's egg, stepping into a gian footprint, or seeing unexpectedly a dragon. Always keeping her VIRGINITY and RESPECTABILITY.

Sometimes I don't understand myself. Even worse, sometimes I don't trust myself. «Nobody's perfect!».

All the best,

Charly
___________________________
P.D.
Possibly YU the GREAT could transform himself into an aquatic creature with scales instead of skin while taming the waters. About his wife must be said that in one of his transformations into a BEAR YU forgot carelessly to go back to his human appearance frightening his wife who become a stone. Breakening the stone was born the Heir.

Some people have really bad luck. Before being abandoned, Later being trasformed into a stone by accident. I believe that knowing it, no woman could be interested in marrying YU neither support his skinless buttocks.

At least I believe so.
Ch.

 

[my_key]

Hi Mike:

I understand that you give great importance to CONTENTION as moral mandate for the community welfare while I am speaking of forgotewn rituals that evolve towards mythical stories like that of QUEENS and KINGS mating in the FURROW for the fecondity of plowghed fields. Maybe the reason why in so many cultures TO PLOW meant TO HAVE SEXUAL INTERCOURSE.

Of course that my perspective is biassed, the mine is a niche, but «nobody's perfect!» (1)

All the best,

Charly
____________________________________
(1) A niche bua not without reasons:
View attachment 5275
Ch.

Hi Charly
I don't see this line particularly as a 'moral mandate for community welfare' it speaks to me more from a place of internal contention, leading to enhanced personal welfare via embracing the nakedness required for a bearing of the soul. Such deep work cannot be entertained without suffering of one type or another, and certainly cannot be forced. Equally, such healing of the soul only really happens through the intimate intercourse of the masculine and feminine principle.

The queen has to be respectfully helped on her journey where she meets the King at an altar outside of town and then they jointly plow the same furrow for the internal heir to be birthed. Resonance with the hermetic sound bite "As above so below, as without so within". The analogy to sexual intercourse is an easy one to follow for this hexagram and, as I have already said, the fertility rites rituals integral to the understanding.

Your niche perspective has allowed me see aspects of this hexagram in different ways. So thanks for that.

Take care

 

[charly]

Hi Charly
...
The queen has to be respectfully helped on her journey where she meets the King at an altar outside of town and then they jointly plow the same furrow for the internal heir to be birthed...

Hi, Mike:
Queen and King Plowghing into the same furrow belongs to an agricultural very ancient rite performed in the fields, a public show seen from the fourth quarters of the country.

The Altars of the Outskirts belongs to the Gao Mei or Jiao Mei ritual performed for avoiding childrenlessness, involving the Queen leading in row Nine Concubines (like strung fishes ssays the Changes) for being «served» by the King. Rituals were known till the Han Dynasty.

All the best,

Charly
______________________________
(1) Agrarian Rituals:

Jessieca Leo; «Sex in the Yellow Emperor's Basic Questions.»

(2) Gao Mei, Mating in the Wild:

Jessieca Leo: «Sex in the Yellow Emperor's Basic Questions»

Ch.
j

 

[Dracon]

Margaret J. PEARSON pioneered a FEMINST approach reading the Zhouyi, the core of the Yijing. For her GOU was a PRINCESS rather than almost a PROSTITUTE, a CONCUBINE or a SLAVE. Below her translation of Hex.44, GOU:

(QUOTE)
44 姤 (gòu) The Royal Bride (1)

The woman is great. Do not grab the woman. A royal bride [was met with great ceremony,] not taken by force.

• Six in the first place: Bound together with a golden spindle. Persevering brings good fortune. Though [you] have a place to go, you face misfortune. With a scrawny piglet to sacrifice, you hesitate.

• Nine in the second place: A fish is in wrappings (conception). No blame. Do not entertain guests.

• Nine in the third place: Buttocks without skin. Her actions halt repeatedly. She hesitates before proceeding. Danger but not much blame.

• Nine in the fourth place: Wrappings but no fish (fetus). True misfortune.

• Nine in the fifth place: She protects the babe within, just as a gourd is protected by being wrapped in flexible willow twigs. You hold great beauty within you. If you miscarry, this is Heaven’s will.

• Nine at the top: The royal bride’s horns. Danger but no blame.

Image
Below the sky, a wind: the image of the royal bride. [As gentle and persistent as the wind,] the queen spreads her influence and makes proclamations which reach the four corners of the world.

Margaret J. Pearson, Ph.D.:
The Original I Ching. An authentic translation of the Book of Changes. Based on recent discoveries.
Tuttle Publishing. Copyright © 2011 Margaret J. Pearson

(End of QUOTE)

Soon (but I don't promise how soon) an alternative, almost literal translation, the another turn of the screw
Nobody´s perfect!.

All the best,

Charly
___________________________________________
(1) 姤, gòu: copulate / good // 遘, gòu: meet unexpectedly
Ch.

Fascinating, Charly, for real. Am trying to correlate the triad h43 - h28 - h44. From a mere graphic pov, they seem almost the same as the creative heaven h1. The differences are in lines 1 and 6. Would like to pick your brain on this topic, since gender seems to be an all pervasive theme nowadays.

 

[charly]

Fascinating, Charly, for real. Am trying to correlate the triad h43 - h28 - h44. From a mere graphic pov, they seem almost the same as the creative heaven h1. The differences are in lines 1 and 6. Would like to pick your brain on this topic, since gender seems to be an all pervasive theme nowadays.

I cannot promise you how soon it will be. I will try.

All the best,

Charly

 

[charly]

Hi, Mike:
Queen and King Plowghing into the same furrow belongs to an agricultural very ancient rite performed in the fields, a public show seen from the fourth quarters of the country.

44.X
天下有風，姤
tian1 xia2 you3 feng1 Gou4
HEAVEN BELOW THER_IS WIND: GOU.
Below the Heaven there is Wind: GOU.

后以施命誥四方
Hou4 yi3 shi1 ming4 gao4 si1 fang1
QUEEN ACCORDINGLY CARRIES_OUT DESTINY PROCLAIM FOUR CORNERS
The Queen, accordingly, carries out her destiny at proclaims it at the four corners of the country.​

Very ancient forgoten ritual practices became folk tales or myths that, according with cultural evolution, are losing their initial naïve credibility.

Can anyone think that when founding the Han Dynasty, Liubang really believed that his mother conceived him wonderfully after the casual encounter with a dragon?

A vassal who rebels against his king or kills him, always lacks credentials of legitimacy and appeals to different myths or tales remnants of ancient times.

All the best,

Charly

 

[charly]

... A vassal who rebels against his king or kills him, always lacks credentials of legitimacy and appeals to different myths or tales remnants of ancient times.
...

A Vassal killed his Sovereign and replaced him in his function, pretending to be a Son of God, a Son of Heaven.
Was the Vassal a traitor or a justicemaker?

What happened when the ZHOU caused the death of the last Shang King founding a new dynasty?

(to be continued)

All the best,
Charly