As good of a place as any?

[nicky_p]

That's the reason I don't like guidelines, maybe it's nececary in many occasions but for me I keep on looking for people who are communicating from the heart and want to go beyond rules.

A good guideline to have - and yet still a guideline?

 

[bruce_g]

Nicky and Frank,

I hear you each talking about two different things.

Frank speaks to the role of leadership, as say a teacher, councilor, doctor, etc. In his career he is obligated to fulfill that sort of role. But here, there are no official titles, roles or authorities; in that sense, everyone is equal. Frank (if I understand correctly) finds relief from that ordered structure here at Clarity, and enjoys that free space.

Nicky (if I understand correctly) speaks not to an official order or hierarchy, but more to a natural respect based on knowledge, character and longevity of others; in that sense, not everyone is equal. That’s a pretty rare thing to find in young people today, or in anyone really, where everyone is considered equal regardless of merit.

 

[willowfox]

Trojan, I told you to follow your own advice and speak up. What false predictions are you refering, mine, Mother Shipton's, Nostradamus, Edgar Case's,please enlighten us? Show us examples of these evil false predictions.

You wrote;
I've already seen you do damage on more than one occasion. Either promoting false hope or fear.

Damage??? On more than one occasion??? False hope??? Fear??? Do the decent thing and explain to all of us exactly what you are refering to. Don't be shy. If you have accusations to throw around, lets hear exactly what you are accusing me off be precise, not vague and woolly.

It seems to me that you are in a vulnerable state (of mind).

 

[heylise]

Personally I would not call them 'false', but I understand what is meant. These 'false' predictions happen when a person gives an interpretation without making it very clear that it is his/her own one. It can be a good prediction, it can even be completely accurate, but even then there is an obligation, to make it clear to the querent, that this is still a person who says it. Nobody should ever follow another person in a blind way. No reader can ever guarantee that his/her reading is absolutely faultless.

Of course it happens many times, that the reader's faith in the accuracy of the reading is so great, that he/she presents it as fact. Then others speak up and soften that down. A good reader accepts these remarks. But some see every remark as an attack, and then the problems arise. Everything turns into lots of words, thrown in all directions.

This is not the first time, that this problem arose. That is why we are discussing it, so we might find a good solution. And I mean a GOOD solution, not only for the querents and for this whole forum, but just as well for the readers who feel attacked.

ReaderS, certainly not one single specific reader.

LiSe

 

[frank_r]

Hello Trojan,

I understood your point as that on a forum no one need take much responsibilty for another because they were equal, not like a therapists relation with a client or a family relationship ? I disagreed with that point of view, thats all.

What I'm trying to say is that if you speak from the heart you speak without any judgment, with no real plan that you know were its heading. Open minded, with as much responsibilty you can give without the will to guide people in the diection which is convenient for yourself.

So what I didn't understand is where you disagreed with my point of view because after reading your messages I thought we were quit the same with are way of looking at things.

So please explain which part you don't agree then I also can learn from your point of view.

Best Wishes Frank

 

[willowfox]

These 'false' predictions happen when a person gives an interpretation without making it very clear that it is his/her own one.
Of course it happens many times, that the reader's faith in the accuracy of the reading is so great, that he/she presents it as fact. Then others speak up and soften that down. A good reader accepts these remarks. But some see every remark as an attack, and then the problems arise.

First, it was very clear to everyone that I was the person making the prediction(s). So now, what do you mean by "false"?
Second, Trojan spoke up but not to soften but to attack and ridicule. Therefore I want her to speak up very clearly and tell us all exactly what is "false". Then perhaps I can learn something, can't I?

 

[frank_r]

Hello Nick_p

A good guideline to have - and yet still a guideline?

First thanks Bruce for your guidance, yes I'm looking for natural guidance, without many rules. More guidance out of natural responsibility and wisdom. And with the will to help, no the will to have control.

For me the I Ching is a big garden and the forum is a part of it, some parts are cultivated and there are working people to control all nature. Sometimes I go watching over there, how other do and sometimes I also interfere when I think it can be done better.

Sometimes I go sitting on a bench and only look, the I can also see other parts of the garden who are less cultivated. Were the are playing, when it's a interesting game I try to be part of it, sometimes I'm aloud sometimes not.

Sometimes I go for a walk, then I don't see anybody and enjoy the freedom of only looking and feel the freedom. When I find something new and want to share it I go back were all the people are, and share it with the ones who are interested.

 

[bruce_g]

Willowfox,

When I ‘sit on the bench watching’ (as Frank has put it), I witness one very notable difference between the way others here read from the way you often read. When I watch others, they attempt to interpret what Yi says, and generally, if they offer something from outside their interpretation they make it clear that it comes from their own understanding of how things work. When I watch you, that separation isn’t there. And so rather than sounding like your interpretation of what Yi says, it sounds like a psychic reading.

Once people know you they can quite easily make mental adjustments, as though it is simply a style of reading/interpreting or of expressing your ideas. But when someone new and inexperienced comes with a question, they don’t know you or your ways, and so there’s the possibility that they take what you say as the way it is: as indisputable fact, as though it comes from a psychic. For you that is fine because that is the style you are used to, but it can be dangerously misleading to the one who asked the question. That is what I see others protesting against.

Let me ask you: Do you present your interpretations as a psychic or merely as a Yijing interpreter?

 

[Trojina]

Willowfox it seems what you object to is my use of the term 'false predictions'. Yes perhaps this is a little strong, too accusatory. And perhaps also when I say you have already done harm and damage that also is too strong - after all you do not actually mean harm I presume. I know I can overstate things when I feel strongly about something and this whole thing is something I really do feel strongly about for all the reasons LiSe gave in her post above.

I said quite clearly in other threads why I thought you were making 'false predictions'. It is not necessary for me to go over that again. In a nutshell I meant I thought you were making definate statements of things which would happen to people and these things were not indicated in the I Ching.

You did this again only yesterday in Moonrises thread on 'relationship'. She asked about contacting her friend thats all. You put in your answer "He wanted peace and quiet from you,from the world.."..."He is wandering along with no goal or plan, I believe that he is now contented with the way he is living".

Willowfox how do you come to these conclusions about Moonrises friend ? It is so definate, you speak as if you know what he is doing, as if it is a fact. Respectfully I do not believe you can know this about him and this kind of thing has led me to use the term 'false predictions'. You give no indication how you come to this knowledge of what Moonrises friend is doing in his life, and in all sanity how can you know ? If you are clairvoyant or have other psychic gifts I do not know, but this is an I Ching forum. I am uncomfortable to see unsubstantiated 'fortune telling' here.

In the above example admittedly there is no actual harm done as such. But still to tell Moonrise her friend has gone 'into hiding' from her I think is giving her a false impression. You don't know what hes doing, unless you have special powers in which case perhaps you need state you are a Psychic, clairvoyant, whatever.

I apologise if I have insulted you by accusing you of bad motives, perhaps I should not have done that. However you have been pretty personally insulting to me and I would like you to stop.

We need to try to continue this discussion if people want to, without fighting. In my view it has been a pretty general discussion for some time and I have never used your name except when you have confronted me.

If you want to continue fighting with me I think you should go to open space. I actually don't want to keep fighting with you.

 

[Trojina]

Frank I thought you meant that on this forum we bear no responsibility for one another because we are not in the role of carer or therapist or mother to one another. I was disagreeing with that idea.

Seems you did not exactly mean that ? I think you meant more that we don't have an obligation to guide any person to a particular outcome, say the way a therapist might. Hence there are no rules, we are guided by our hearts. Well yes I'm all for that.

I recall times when I have asked for help here and on other forums. What was said to me affected me greatly, helped me, had an impact on how I was that day, even how I slept that night. Thats why I said we do have a degree of responsibility to one another because we do have an impact. I don't think we are disagreeing just expressing things differently, yes ?



I love your comparison of the I Ching and the forum to a garden or park. Its just like that I think. Sometimes one strolls around and looks on relaxing, sometimes one gets stuck into a mud fight.


BTW when I said all were equal here and everywhere I meant in the broad sense, all our lives are of equal value to one another, equal in our humanity. Like Kahlil Gibrahn said 'he who is worthy of his days and nights is worthy of all else from me' or something like that.

Of course we are not all equal in every other attribute or skill or level of knowledge. I think you meant the patient is not equal to the therapist because the therapist has more knowledge ? At first didn't understand your meaning, I think I do now.

 

[willowfox]

To bruce,
Willow wrote,

I did have experiencing intuiting, discussing, helping other with issues troubling them. As I started to offer interpretations here, I often had the sense I was "channeling" - the flow of images, intuitions, implications and tentative conclusions would often surprise me. Yet the active application of my intellect and experience was also required. And something else, something else. I've come to think of the something else as two things, two rules, as:

First, Humility. As someone else said, "do no harm." The reading is a gift to the querant, that must be fully released when given. No ego, no stroking ego.

I use the I Ching, horary astrology, a pinch or two of intuition and then put it all together to find the right answer to the question. Sometimes the answers come easy, sometimes not. Yes, I do present my answers as a whole, because if I split the answers into bits and pieces, then they would not make sense to the reader. I have always done readings for people this way, and this is the first time in my life that I have had people ask me how I arrive at an answer. People I read for never ask, why would they want to know anyway, even if I told them how, they still would not understand.

 

[frank_r]

hello Trojan,

I don't think we are disagreeing just expressing things differently, yes ?

Yes I think you are right here. Sometimes I also meet a sort "father, Mother"and "therapist"here but only wenn I'm open and not really searching for one.

Best wishes frank R

 

[willowfox]

To trojan,

I joined this site so that I could help others find a solution to their problems. I never expected to be attacked for the way I answer those questions. My methods seem to be so differnt, that quite a few people have become upset, why it is such a problem. As I said before, let the querant decide, and let time reveal all. Therefore, I request that certain people here be more repectful of another person's methods. Discuss, don't accuse without the proper evidence. Don't jump to instant conclusions that just because you don't understand something, then it must be wrong. Try and understand another person's point of view, some of us can think for ourselves.
I stand by the answer that I gave to moonrise, check all the hexs that she received, open your mind, then you will begin to see where my answers were coming from. Do you wish to give moonrise "false hope", by getting her to hang on a thread, hoping everyday for good news which never comes, month, after month. Then one day realizing she has wasted her life waiting in vain because somebody like you said; hang in there girl, *maybe* he will come back. That is "false hope".
Okay, trojan, lets call a truce but please don't accuse or attack me again on this forum, if there is something that you disagree with, then do the right thing and discuss it with me in a civilised fashion.

 

[Sparhawk]

Hi Willowfox,

To bruce,
I have always done readings for people this way, and this is the first time in my life that I have had people ask me how I arrive at an answer.

Ahem, I'll venture to say that most people here, other than those asking for help and/or are newbies to the I Ching, have been studying the Yi for many years. I wouldn't say there is a fixed patron of interpretation amongst the lot of us, but there are general patterns that can be discerned. If somebody falls out of those patterns you can bet some money there will be questions about it. From my personal experience here I can say with certainty that you will not find blind acceptance to your words and interpretations. "Diviners" here will check and balance each other and that has always been that way. Take Bruce and I, for example, after a few years, we still don't see eye-to-eye regarding Hex 23... (he's the optimist of the two, BTW)

People I read for never ask, why would they want to know anyway, even if I told them how, they still would not understand.

You are assuming way too much. You'll be surprised at how much people can understand if given a chance.

Luis

 

[willowfox]

Hi sparhawk,

you wrote;
You are assuming way too much. You'll be surprised at how much people can understand if given a chance.

By people, I presume that you are refering to other people here who divine for others.
I have in the past tried to explain to clients about the I Ching or astrology but in every case they have sat there in a mystified silence.

 

[hilary]

Hm - your clients seem to be quite different to mine. I try not to burden people by showing all my workings ('and this comes from the line pathway which travels through the fan yao and the paired lines discovered by inverting the hexagram unless of course we have the other and more rare kind of hexagram pair in which case...'). But I always give people the imagery and connections within the reading to relate to in their own way. And I also explain the basics of 6 lines, changing lines, trigrams, etc.

I did a face to face reading once in a pub (one of those low-class English places where all the hooligans go ) and introduced Yi to a brother and sister who'd never encountered it before. They watched me write down the hexagrams they cast and turn to the relevant page in the book. I read for the sister first, then the brother. As his reading progressed, she was seizing on the imagery with delight and showing him how it applied. She did a pretty good job of it, too.

Do you think we might be looking at a selection effect? If you typically tell people 'here is the right answer', you will tend to attract clients who want that kind of service. My approach probably makes anyone looking to have their fortune told run in the opposite direction. If I read for my repeat clients (the good people who have been coming back for many years) and offered them nothing but my conclusions, they would most certainly ask me how I arrived at them.

 

[willowfox]

Hi Hilary,

was it the White Lion pub, up near the Arsenal grounds, if so, then I know it well.