Clarity,
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London.
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Hi, Hilary:...Hexagram 17, Following, is ‘thunder in the lake’. The Image draws guidance from this –
‘At the centre of the lake is thunder. Following.This has always seemed to me as though the creative energy of thunder itself were sleeping within the lake...
A noble one at nightfall
Goes inside for renewal and rest.’
The Sequence adds to this sense that thunder itself is ‘going inside’...
So to me, it’s in Hexagram 17 that inner thunder begins to feel like the pulse of natural cyclic rhythm, one we can Follow through days or (as in the Images of 24 and 25) seasons...
... as the fifth line and guiding principle of Following looks something like*being in rhythm – perhaps with the dragon’s heartbeat...
Wilhelm said THE NOBLE instead of the SUPERIOR MAN that Baynes took from Legge.Thunder in the middle of the lake: The image of FOLLOWING.
Thus the superior man at nightfall Goes indoors for rest and recuperation.
Wilhelm/Baynes
Legge understood that the two last characters meant both the same: TO REST. But he adds between brackets where the noble entered: into his house.(The trigram for the waters of) a marsh and (that for) thunder (hidden) in the midst of it form Sui.
The superior man in accordance with this, when it is getting towards dark, enters (his house) and rests.
Legge
The trigram Tui, the Joyous, whose attribute is gladness, is above; Chên, the Arousing, which has the attribute of movement, is below. Joy in movement induces following. The Joyous is the youngest daughter, while the Arousing is the eldest son. An older man defers to a young girl and shows her
consideration. By this he moves her to follow him.
Wilhelm/Baynes
...
Don´t you believe that TAM-TAM means PASSION? Ser here:
...
"In tree-house as honeymoon suite
their hearts like the jungle drums beat"
Source: http://limoday.blogspot.com.ar/2011/01/jungle-drum-boogie.html
Hi Hilary:Going inside and resting, Charly. Resting.
Though then again, now I look up yan4 in Wenlin, I find it quotes Karlgren suggesting this might be 'a daily siesta in the harem'. The components of the character: under the roof, an old character for 'peace' made up of 'sun' and 'woman'. For the whole character - sun and woman under the roof - Sears' site has 'entertain, feast'. What does the noble one do after going inside? That's her/his own business.
Hi, Liselle:Charly, I could see you publishing The Pornographic I Ching. You'd probably make a fortune.
()
The creative spark (the jun zi - the superior person) goes indoors, to feast and rest.Then, in Following, the creative spark*is taken back inside.
Liselle, I strongly believe Charly is absolutely right.
Love and sex are at the core of human existence.
Well ok, it can also be argued that survival is the most significant core of human existence. But survival alone, without any love or sex, is precarious and colourless. Love furthers and reinforces survival, and sex perpetuates the human race.
These fundamental values are absolutely needed to make the world go round. Anything else is just an added bonus.
It just sounds right that the I Ching, THE book of life, is primarily about essentials: survival/love/sex.
It's blatant all over its text.
The creative spark (the jun zi - the superior person) goes indoors, to feast and rest.
"Follow jun zi". If someone wants to be with the jun zi, they need to follow him/her.
Thus the one who has the upper hand, stimulates, then retreats as if they couldn't care less.
The weaker part of the equation (the "female") has to follow the strongest part ("male"), if they want any interaction with them.
"See you later in my tent, if you feel like it, but I'm not bothered if you don't", sort of.
In my experience, 17.5 > 51 speaks about falling in love with something or someone we consider excellent.
We fall in love (with something or someone we consider excellent) and we're in for a shock (a nasty one).
Shock meaning, "you truly have no idea what's coming next - it's not what you think", broadly speaking.
Hi, Jumping Mouse:While looking forward to what will "be continued" by Charly I have these thoughts...
Diamanda, I am surprised that your experience of 17.5 is one of being in for a "nasty shock". The line says "Good Fortune". I would have expected the shock to be a good one. I suppose that a "nasty shock" could be "Good Fortune" bringing something new but it feels "nasty" because it wasn't what was expected? ...
Until the moment when we said our first hello,Chales Singledon: Strangers in the night
litte did we know...
I like Hilary's "being in rhythm with the dragon's heartbeat" for "Following" and line 17.5 seems the moment when we connect with the sleeping creative energy to "Move" (51)? /dance to the rhythm of the creative energy?
Charly could you please elaborate these two points? Where does the expression "Human Dragon" come from? And where in the Changes is it considered good for the female to overpower the male?The Heavinly Dragon (the stars) and the Watery Dragon (river dragons) had a season to sleep, lake chinese alligators in the bottom of a pond. The Human Dragon (a phallic euphemism) has no season for making love, then, always rest after doing it.
(...)
Much people thinked that a female in upper position and a male un lower position, or that a female outside and a male inside challenged the natural order of things. The Changes dodn't think so, except in much later traditionalists commentaries.
Dear Diamanda:... Charly could you please elaborate these two points? Where does the expression "Human Dragon" come from? And where in the Changes is it considered good for the female to overpower the male?
Totally agree. In fact it's ominous in both cases. See for example hexagrams 28 (where there's "too much male", and it contains a coffin allusion) and 62 (where there's "too much female", and it mentions mourning).As far a I remember it is not said in the Changes if is good for the female to overpower the male or if is good for the male to overpower the female.
I totally and wholeheartedly agree.I believe that all abusive domination is odious.
Haha! Of course, he has caused this following, so I'm sure he enjoys.Of course, in H.17 the female trigram (Lake, aka THE JOYOUS) enjoys the upper / outer position and the male trigram (Thunder, aka THE AROUSING) is in the lower / inner position. Did the Changes say that he doesn't enjoy there?
...
Haha! Of course, he has caused this following, so I'm sure he enjoys.
...
‘True and confident in excellence.And in that rather bland translation (mine!), they don’t seem to be. But just under the surface, it turns out that the character translated ‘excellence’, jia*, has the components – ‘add, increase’, made of ‘strong’ and ‘mouth’ – and a drum. Together this means what is fine, good and praised – something worth drumming about ...
Good fortune.’
Rubbing of a Han Dynasty relief.
Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).