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Blog post: Lasting

hilary

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For some reason, working through the lines of hexagram 32 recently took much longer than any other hexagram had done…
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I did find, looking through threads about it at the forum, that other people find it hard, too. Especially, it’s puzzling how a hexagram that describes something essentially positive can have such a scary set of moving lines.

‘Deep into lasting,
Constancy, pitfall,
No direction bears fruit.’

‘Regrets vanish.’

‘Not lasting in your character,
Maybe accepting a shameful gift.
Constancy: shame.’

‘In the field, no game.’

‘Lasting in your character with constancy.
For the mature woman, good fortune.
For the young man, pitfall.’

‘Shaking up lasting, pitfall.’

Of all those, only line 2 is unconditionally positive, and even then only in the sense that ‘regrets vanish’. The rest have an aura of failure or letting yourself down, one way or another. Yet the basic idea of lasting is supremely positive - just listen to the commentary on the judgement:

“…Persevering, creating success, no mistake.
Harvest in constancy.
Lasting in your own dao:
The dao of heaven and earth
Persevering lasts and does not come to an end.
It is fruitful to have a direction to go:
Completion means there is a beginning.

The sun and moon are set in heaven and can last in their shining
The four seasons transform and change and can last in their achievements
The wise person lasts in his dao, and below heaven is change and realisation.

See your place to persevere,
And you can see the motive force of heaven, earth and the myriad beings.”

So how come there are four or five ways out of six for this beautiful thing to go shamefully wrong?

I think it’s because Hexagram 32 has a unique way of relating to aspiration or inspiration. It seeks to take the Influence (paired hexagram, 31) and integrate and internalise it, weaving it right into the fabric of life and making a lasting pattern of it.

For one thing, this is an exceptionally potent thing to do. There are few things in life more powerful than a habit or pattern. The hidden core (nuclear hexagram) of Lasting is 43, Deciding, the hexagram of bringing your message and declaring yourself. Lasting is a way of creating who you are, just as much as the Vessel, or Great Vigour, or Great Possession. Also, it may be much easier to create the pattern than it is to escape it - that would be the implication of line 1, plunging in deeply with Great Vigour. There’s so much energy to solve and settle things, to create a resolution - but such energy will not suffice to get you out again, any more than 34’s ram can follow its chosen ‘direction’ through the hedge.

Maybe even more fundamentally - changing lines mean a relating hexagram, and the very presence of a relating hexagram implies that there is some inspiration or aspiration or direction out there. Lasting wants to bring that inspiration in here so it becomes inseparable from what we do from moment to moment*- but not many inspirations are really amenable to that kind of integration. Hexagram 62, Small Overstepping, is an exception because it’s already all about paying attention to the present moment.

(So as commentary on its line I ended up with -

“Those regrets were for paths not taken, and most especially for ideals left behind. They’re part of the journey, and they vanish because you move on: instead of dwelling in nostalgic comparisons, you are engrossed in the immediate, practical details. Your purpose becomes an integral part of your daily life; it’s no longer experienced as a pure ideal, shining on the horizon of some grand vista, but in the next small step on the road.”

)

But hexagram 46, for instance, is a whole other kettle of fish. It Pushes Upward, and the objective is up there, a future aspiration that inspires you to climb mountains and nurture seeds with patience and optimism. When you Last in this spirited conviction, you get the somewhat sardonic line,

‘No game in the field.’

The commentary on the line is still drier: ‘Enduringly not in your right place, how could you get game?’

When you are in the wrong place to find what you seek, staying longer in the wrong place will not change anything, no matter how much confidence and determination you have, and no matter how convinced you are that this really ought to work.

For some who get this line, the chosen field can be so identified with the aspiration, so much part of a way of life, that the idea of leaving it is almost taboo. If they could take the aspiration to ascend back into themselves, they would realise that they need to climb through and beyond the empty field.

This is the tricky choice 32 is negotiating from moment to moment: how to last in one’s own dao? Sometimes this will mean holding to an inner path and changing course outwardly, to get out of the empty field (or avoid jumping into the depths). But sometimes, changing course outwardly simply means breaking faith. After all Lasting is meant to mean ‘change and realisation’ below heaven; it’s not meant to stay forever as a nice, pure idea unsullied by reality.

Line 6 would be an example of this - the one who receives this line might have something like the fan yao, 50 line 6, in mind - a vessel with a jade handle, one that will be eternally lustrous and never tarnish. So, aspiring to found a whole new vision, he constantly ’shakes things up’. But a lasting pattern of constantly founding new visions is tantamount to a lasting pattern of never achieving anything real at all, something like the bandar log.

Line 5 is generally a line of decision and definition: the mind, the eyes, the chosen direction. It speaks of lasting in your de. How (especially after the shame of line 3) could that fail to be a good idea? Yet it turns out that even this depends on the nature of your de and its stage of development…
 

rodaki

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thank you Hilary
have 32.5 as my birth hexagram and still trying to understand it . .
mostly I think of it as yin elements constant, like roots and trunk of tree
yang elements flexible and elastic like branches according to weight, but this new take gave me a different point of view . .
 

hilary

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I tend to think of yang and yin in terms of hexagrams 1 and 2 - heaven/earth, creative/receptive, so part of the distinction is between having the idea and making it real. When I receive 32.5, I'd actually be asking myself whether I was being more 'mature woman' or 'young man' in the particular situation my question was about. Not such a useful approach when it's a birth reading. How did you calculate that, and are you finding it helpful?
 

rodaki

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I tend to think of yang and yin in terms of hexagrams 1 and 2 - heaven/earth, creative/receptive, so part of the distinction is between having the idea and making it real. When I receive 32.5, I'd actually be asking myself whether I was being more 'mature woman' or 'young man' in the particular situation my question was about. Not such a useful approach when it's a birth reading. How did you calculate that, and are you finding it helpful?

I did the calculation in http://www.hall-of-man.com/ which I came across reading the archives here -it was LiSe's suggestion . .

If it has helped . . well it made think a lot about 32.5 for starters :D and try to figure it out . . It's fan yao helped me a lot in this, basically it gave me the image of the tree. Then in a similar vein to what you described as yang and yin I tried looking at yang as expansion/exploration and yin as sustenance, so in the tree image the way of sustenance and earth became roots and trunk, while expansion/exploration became the branches . . I also thought of how trees' branches bend under a heavy load of snow so they won't break (again thinking 32 in a 28 situation . .).

I find it does agree with me in a certain way, but at the end of it, I might have come up with the understanding of the line also influenced by my understanding of myself . . :brickwall: :eek:
 

fkegan

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If the name ideogram is lasting, stable orbit is that only and always lasting?

Hi Rodaki,
Hex 32.5 is difficult as a personal oracle, especially if you just read the Wilhelm.
Old Faithful >> High Over Head.
The fifth line, the place of the mind and overall organization is developing focus and changing the situation of traditional routine or orbit towards overwhelming process within, lacking connection to either its roots (line1) or the transition to the Next (line 6). It is the gestation of a new personal reality requiring support for your self-expression and personal development, not as your next stage but as your next creative generation or legacy or product.

I prefer to construct a natal oracle from what signs have planets in them. Doesn't matter, in terms of the Oracle what planets, just what signs have planets (and therefore which ones do not).

The notion of hex 32 as lasting that continues through the timing of each line is a difficult one for me. A hexagram is a particular pattern of Flux which is changing through its own dynamic (the six line places in sequence). A Yi Oracle then adds moving lines which are changing and by their change becoming a totally different pattern and hexagram. When does this change begin? At what point does the Oracle hexagram become background or context to the changes in process that are totally changing everything to the Resultant?

This is a prime example of the question of Yi interpretation from the overall meaning or the details of the words involved.

I checked in Yellowbridge for the literal Chinese. The overall meaning of this hexagram is the stable routine of an orbit. Clearly, any moving line must be a change away from such stability or orbit. The second line is clearly the best judgment. It does not contain the word for "lasting" in it. It is the well-aimed rock shot from the sling with perfect aim. It moves along to great success.

Line five has the duration or lasting character, but its problem is it's taking its guidance from the Yang second line. Like a princess following or marrying a lovely fellow, but a commoner. For a prince this would be humiliating to marry below his rank. For a princess it can be a recognition of new opportunities.
No matter who the princess marries he will never be king. But a prince's wife will some day be Queen or otherwise too powerful for the Establishment to trust.

The other lines are all unfortunate. They have that same title character; however, since they represent change from that stable orbit, trying to hang on can only lead to misfortune--it is time to move on one way or another.

Regards,
Frank
 
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rodaki

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thanks for elaborating Frank . . I like 32 myself, it's good to know that amidst the changes some things are lasting, though 32.5 as I read it can be a tight balance . .
Just wanted to add that my tree imagery was not meant as what Yi texts say but the schematic way I found to figure out the line . .
 

fkegan

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thanks for elaborating Frank . . I like 32 myself, it's good to know that amidst the changes some things are lasting, though 32.5 as I read it can be a tight balance . .
Just wanted to add that my tree imagery was not meant as what Yi texts say but the schematic way I found to figure out the line . .

Hi Dora,

Thanks for the appreciation of my post. :)

You should at least try your natal oracle from what Zodiac signs have planets in them and which do not. The only planetary combination that matters is the Sun and Mercury in the same sign only counts as 1 since Mercury spends so much of its time in the same sign as the sun and can't get into very many other signs than the sun ever.

Frank
 

hilary

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Frank and I differ on what's going on in 32's lines, I think. The idea of a 'stable orbit' for 32 describes it well. Another is the idea of inscribing a circle around what you want to 'fix' into your life, like (borrowing example from LiSe) ploughing a furrow round a city, or drawing a circle to contain a ritual, or come to that the habit of writing your name with that of your young love and drawing circles round and round the two names!

So the lines could be described as attempts to put different things at the centre of the circle, or the orbit. (Frank has the various zhi gua as tangents to the orbit.) Some centres are more conducive to a stable orbit than others.

Or if you borrow imagery from the commentary instead and think of 32 as lasting on your path, some mindsets make for a better lasting guide on the path than others. 50 makes for a startlingly bad one, but I think that's because 50 marks a particular moment, when you embrace the new. The ding is not to be recycled.

In the blog comments, Scott Davis, who is brilliantly observant of patterns running through Yi's text and structure, mentions that 32.6's 'shaking up' is almost the same word as the name of 51, which is next to the Vessel. Interesting!
 

fkegan

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Orbits must obey momentum laws when they change...

Hi Hilary,

The notion of hex 32 as the stable, eternal (or lasting) orbit of celestial bodies observed in the heavens or the traditional forms and routines of traditional Chinese marriage is generally agreed from the text and all other perspectives.

The problem comes in terms of what changes with changing lines. Is this a matter of interpreting poetry where you can use your imagination to invent imagery?
Or is it a matter of the objective reality of angular momenta being imposed and inferred through the symbolism.

Whatever is at the center of an orbit or a circle is not at all any part of what is happening upon the circumference. The center of a circle is not part of the circle, simply the Source of its radius magnitude.

Hex 32 is the stable (lasting) orbit timing within the Flux or Change of Reality. Any of its lines moving ends that timing or hex 32, changing it to some other. The moving lines must and do disrupt and ending the "lasting-ness" in various ways. Several of the lines in the Wilhelm or Yellowbridge Chinese speak of the misfortune of trying to hold on to the prior orbit or "lasting-ness" with this moving line.

Only the second line, with all the right and proper circumstances, does well. There is no "lasting-ness" in its line judgment, rather it moves like David's smooth stone from his sling to its target.

The lines of hex 32 require vast writing of words to try to hold on to the "lasting" when in all ways they are about not lasting at all, but various changes from stable, lasting orbit to other realities and their consequences.

Best Regards,
Frank
 
M

meng

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The idea of a 'stable orbit' for 32 describes it well. Another is the idea of inscribing a circle around what you want to 'fix' into your life, like (borrowing example from LiSe) ploughing a furrow round a city, or drawing a circle to contain a ritual, or come to that the habit of writing your name with that of your young love and drawing circles round and round the two names!

32.jpg
 
M

meng

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I see 32.5 as denoting the necessary personal energy, which needs to be contributed in order to maintain momentum. One can have the impression that momentum continues by itself, but that is only half true, the half which balances force with release of force. Thus throwing, as it were, the object into orbit. I view line 5 as this throwing power, or thrust, essential to keeping it going.
 
M

meng

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This Dynaflex gyro ball is a neat example of 32. You control the amount of speed and torque. It requires an equal amount of releasing as it does generating force.

e6e6e3cc-6e1b-434c-bbd4-a88b8578fbbe.jpg


http://www.rei.com/product/787691

These are really great, btw, for various arm, wrist, hand or finger ailments, or just tone up and strengthening arms and grip. You control the speed and torque; it gets surprisingly difficult to hold onto for long, if you push it, but you can also find sweet spots where it requires very little actual force. You switch hands while the momentum is strong enough to keep going, and going, and going. It's a nice meditative tool too, acting similarly to a prayer wheel.
 

rodaki

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I see 32.5 as denoting the necessary personal energy, which needs to be contributed in order to maintain momentum. One can have the impression that momentum continues by itself, but that is only half true, the half which balances force with release of force. Thus throwing, as it were, the object into orbit. I view line 5 as this throwing power, or thrust, essential to keeping it going.

ok, that was great . . it's like a balance between centripetal and centrifugal tendencies (centripetal=yin centrifugal=yang?)
that's something I often have trouble with cause it can feel like moving towards two different directions at once :)brickwall:) and it takes a lot of practice -for me at least- to satisfy both directions without blocking any one
. . uhmm it's easier to just keep on just one side of it I guess :rolleyes:

or else, as Hilary mentioned in her first post, this line may be a constant reminder to check if one of the two sides is being neglected . .

and with this I have to go back and re-read this thread . .
 

fkegan

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ok, that was great . . it's like a balance between centripetal and centrifugal tendencies (centripetal=yin centrifugal=yang?)
that's something I often have trouble with cause it can feel like moving towards two different directions at once :)brickwall:) and it takes a lot of practice -for me at least- to satisfy both directions without blocking any one
. . uhmm it's easier to just keep on just one side of it I guess :rolleyes:

or else, as Hilary mentioned in her first post, this line may be a constant reminder to check if one of the two sides is being neglected . .

and with this I have to go back and re-read this thread . .

Hi Dora,

Issues of angular momentum and gravity in the dynamics of orbiting celestial bodies is confusing, particularly in the first years of new centuries when new theory is possible in traditional physics.

Hex 32.5 refers to a line that is changing from the stable orbit of hex 32 toward a new reality. It is leaving a strong, traditional gravity behind that used to maintain eternal though not new or creative orbits through the generations.

Since it is leaving traditional orbit, that gravitational pull has become an interference and a danger as with a rock in a sling (shot) that must be fully released to reach the target and not go off and miss its mark.

The issue with line 5 is the goal ahead or the model being followed. The fifth Yin line is in relationship with the second Yang line. It must either accept that direction from a prior line or it needs to develop its own inner gyroscope and as it goes from an open Yin space to its own Yang focus find direction from Inner Source.

Best regards,
Frank
 

rodaki

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Hi Dora,

it needs to develop its own inner gyroscope and as it goes from an open Yin space to its own Yang focus find direction from Inner Source.

Best regards,
Frank

hi Frank, yes, this is what I was trying to describe, thank you :)
 

charly

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thank you Hilary
have 32.5 as my birth hexagram and still trying to understand it . .
mostly I think of it as yin elements constant, like roots and trunk of tree
yang elements flexible and elastic like branches according to weight, but this new take gave me a different point of view . .
Dear Dora:

I was working a little on 32.5, maybe a literal translation could apport something:



heng2: constant / persistent // endurance / enduring /
qi2: his / her / its / theirs / that / such / it /
de2: dowry (?) / received gifts (?) // virtue / morality / character /
zhen1 / chaste /

婦人 fu4ren2: woman / women /
ji2: lucky /

fu1: husband / master /
zi3: child / son / child / seed / egg /
xiong1: fierce / terrible / ominous /



The fifth is the only line that uses heng2 instead of heng2, this is a special line.

/ depicts HEART and a CRESCENT MOON between two horizontal strokes, also HEART and a BOAT between two banks, could mean a sacrifice to the moon o something that progress smoothy and reliably.

de2 passed from meaning VIRTUE in a moral sense to mean the CHARACTER of a person than can be virtuous or no, but earlier had the sense of virtue as potential, the amount of attributes that a person has, I believe, the recived GIFTS or DOWRY.

a literal translation:


ENDURING ONE'S ENDOWMENT
making durable one's granted gifts

OMEN
sign of (the precedent)


WOMEN LUCKY
women are fortunate
... in doing this


HUSBAND KIDS OMINOUS
ominous for cubs of husband
... inmature pretentious men are unable


婦人 fu4ren2 is a word, two characters, the firsth one traditionally said to be a woman wit a bromm (not a joke, a servant, I preffer a witch) the other meaning person is applied to both genres. FuRen means plainly WOMAN / WOMEN

Here I take 夫子 fu1zi3 as a two-character word, the first as HUSBAND, the second SON or CHILD as a diminutive particle, say LITTLE HUSBAND, HUSBAND KID...

Althogh ending with the worsd xiong, unfortunate, horrible, THE OMEN OF THE LINE IS NO BAD, ONLY AN ADVICE..

Maybe for you the line says:

→ You will be happy, only matter of time.

→ Be loyal with your recived gifts, do not resign your ideals, you have the right of not being offended or hurt.

→ Do not accept inmature cubs of husband, demand a real man, a man knowing how to love you (preferable if no pianists).

Your name is The Endowed, your natal sign speaks of endowments, for you this is a good line in a good hexagram (1).


All the best,

Charly

_______________________
(1) H.32 says:
ENDURING FEAST [long joy]
NO WRONG [all OK]
PROFITABLE OMEN [you will get profit of this, you already have what is needed]
PROFITABLE HAVING FAR TO GO [go as far as you need]
 
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rodaki

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dear Charly . . .

this is some of the best advice I have ever received . . truly thank you for it -and for the detailed analysis you put together . .

:bows:
 

pantherpanther

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This Dynaflex gyro ball is a neat example of 32. You control the amount of speed and torque. It requires an equal amount of releasing as it does generating force.

e6e6e3cc-6e1b-434c-bbd4-a88b8578fbbe.jpg


http://www.rei.com/product/787691

These are really great, btw, for various arm, wrist, hand or finger ailments, or just tone up and strengthening arms and grip. You control the speed and torque; it gets surprisingly difficult to hold onto for long, if you push it, but you can also find sweet spots where it requires very little actual force. You switch hands while the momentum is strong enough to keep going, and going, and going. It's a nice meditative tool too, acting similarly to a prayer wheel.

I wonder what you mean that this can act as a meditative tool, similar to a prayer wheel?
 
M

meng

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I wonder what you mean that this can act as a meditative tool, similar to a prayer wheel?

Nothing terribly deep or traditionally spiritual. Just that by physically creating the repetitive circular motion, it induces a mind clearing and self perpetuating effect. It's a balance of opposites, which has the effect of balancing ones meridian. Half of the force is you turning the wheel, while the other half is the wheel turning you. You're the one holding the the stick. But if you're holding the stick, who is observing it?

om mani padme hum, around and round we go

I regress. One could call it a meditative or just a hypnotic effect, though they're not the same thing. As with meditation, he can fall asleep or wake up.
 

pantherpanther

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Nothing terribly deep or traditionally spiritual. Just that by physically creating the repetitive circular motion, it induces a mind clearing and self perpetuating effect. It's a balance of opposites, which has the effect of balancing ones meridian. Half of the force is you turning the wheel, while the other half is the wheel turning you. You're the one holding the the stick. But if you're holding the stick, who is observing it?

om mani padme hum, around and round we go

I regress. One could call it a meditative or just a hypnotic effect, though they're not the same thing. As with meditation, he can fall asleep or wake up.

I see. I suppose it could help to see how I fall asleep, too.
 

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