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The idea is that, before the prescribed three years of mourning for his father were completed, Wu received clear omens that it was time to march on Shang – and so he had to set out, taking the desiccated, unburied corpse in its chariot to lend Wen's spiritual authority to the campaign.
In this version of Zhou history, Wu marched east to the Fords of Meng in 1048BC, only two years after his father's death. He followed the path of Jupiter, as it moved east across the night sky. But then Jupiter suddenly paused and went retrograde, and when they arrived at the Fords they were met by atrocious weather and bad omens from both tortoise and yarrow. Wu rejected the urging of his bellicose generals and retreated back to the Zhou homeland. Two years later, there were spectacularly favourable celestial omens, similar to those that first gave his father Wen Heaven's Mandate, and he marched out and conquered.
Corpse-carting is the alternative to observing correct mourning ritual - especially if it is a literal corpse in the war chariot and not the spirit tablet, but maybe even if it's the tablet.The question I had when reading this (and not processing it very well) was, are we sure Wu did cart the corpse? Or did he think about doing that, but then decided to forego all such rituals and just get on with things?
That would seem to fit with what we usually say about 55 - don't spend time mourning, march out forthwith.
Oh no no no. You bury the body with due ritual, you install the tablet that houses the ancestral spirit in the temple, and you yourself go into mourning for three years. This is how you show respect for your parents, by not going back to business as usual.Questions:
Was their usual ritual really to let a body sit rotting in a hut for three years? (Especially if the hut was anywhere near their own dwellings, ick.)
Er, good questions. All we actually know is that 55 is called Feng and says not to mourn. Then there is the word 'yi' in the oracle, which Field actually still translates as 'appropriate' though Marshall pointed out it's an offering, and the reference to 3 years and the hut in line 6 which sounds very much like the observance of mourning.I don't understand the Jupiter-version chronology vs. 55. 55 seems to say: stop mourning > march out > success. But the Jupiter version seems to say that the favorable signs came four years after his father's death, which would be after the three years' mourning anyway. So then what's 55 about that says to stop mourning early?
Or did he think Jupiter was the favorable sign, but then when it went retrograde + everything else bad happening: nope, apparently not, go back? Why does 55 skip that and make it sound simpler? Was the sign in 55 the first sign, the second one... ???
Hi, Hilary:Yes, true. What I've found is that this shit you're carrying is also something of deep personal significance, maybe something you regard as a talisman for success, or part of your identity, or an indispensable help or justification - any of the ways Wu and the Duke of Zhou might have felt about carrying their dead father with them.
I drew a complete blank when trying to think of an image to illustrate this post. Any suggestions?
Thanks, Hilary...hm, when discussing hexagram 55 readings, I usually do say something like "don't mourn, march out." Maybe it'd be better to stop with just "don't mourn"? Maybe, "don't mourn..." (whatever "mourning" might be in the person's question), "...and start doing whatever needs doing" - ? Which may or may not be actually setting out.
What do you think?
Hi, Hilary:
I can see Wu Wang and Zhou Gong taking such a determination for reasons of strategical impact. But I cannot imagine Zhou Gong carrying the corpse with him.
I always believed that was Kang Hou, a much youger brother of both who was charged with that burden. The horrible prognostication than ends lines 7.3 and 7.5 applies to the necessity of carrying a corpse, say, Kang Hou was burdened with the worse part.
He was? It is? All I know about him is that he helped sort out rebellious lords post-Conquest, knew what to do with a gift of horses, and may have had his mother's protection. Tell the story, please!...
And Kang Hou (whose name was FENG, maybe a variant of H.55 title) was known for being very fond of women and wine. But that's another story.
Of course...Well, we could always just quote what it says
...but, in my own defense (sorry, this is the sort of thing that could easily just sound argumentative ), don't we often tell more of stories than is literally in the text? However if we are finding out we're not sure of the truth of things, in ways that might be misleading in readings, I'll be happy and relieved to avoid that. Probably better to miss out on some illustration than mislead anyone.Insert obligatory spiel about the dangers of using one's own idea of a hexagram in place of what it says here. Though of course we do need our own ideas of hexagrams, and couldn't avoid having them anyway. Maybe 'don't mourn, take on responsibility'?
However if we are finding out we're not sure of the truth of things, in ways that might be misleading in readings, I'll be happy and relieved to avoid that. Probably better to miss out on some illustration than mislead anyone.
However if we are finding out we're not sure of the truth of things, in ways that might be misleading in readings, I'll be happy and relieved to avoid that. Probably better to miss out on some illustration than mislead anyone.
Liselle said:7.3 and 7.5 seem trickier
Yes, absolutely.How can we ever be totally sure of the truth of things with the I Ching ? We can't. I don't see it as a matter of misleading anyone else but trying it in your own readings and going from there.
and what would be wrong with that?Of course...
...but, in my own defense (sorry, this is the sort of thing that could easily just sound argumentative ),
Indeed we do, all the time. To say nothing of telling personal stories that aren't in the text at all, like 'The last time I had this line in a reading...' - improvising and going with our feeling for what will help.don't we often tell more of stories than is literally in the text?
However if we are finding out we're not sure of the truth of things, in ways that might be misleading in readings, I'll be happy and relieved to avoid that. Probably better to miss out on some illustration than mislead anyone.
That seems different from, say, the eclipse/sunspot controversy, which as you've said probably makes no difference in readings.
Sounds about right.I wonder if a reasonable thing to do is keep the bigger stories in mind, as background, but also keep in mind that what we know might be inaccurate. And then think something like, "Okay, against all that, here's what the text literally says."
As I said in the original post, I think the two-marches version of the story would be the simplest resolution for this.7.3 and 7.5 seem trickier, because the text literally says, "cart corpses...pitfall," but, as Hilary said, we know for sure that the Zhou won.
Hi, Hilary:...
Good thought. I mentioned the Duke because he's mentioned as having been there (giving wise counsel about retreating when timely, of course). But I suppose Kang must have been there too, as a good supportive brother...
...He was? It is? All I know about him is that he helped sort out rebellious lords post-Conquest, knew what to do with a gift of horses, and may have had his mother's protection. Tell the story, please!
Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).