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Boss is flirting with me, how to handle it? 23.4 > 35

floranova

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Ok, I want to preface this by saying I am going to speak with HR, but I still want us to look at how the reading applies to this stiuation.

I know he's flirting because he comments positively on my appearance often, he stands way too close to me whenever he gets the chance, he makes (very) vaguely suggestive comments, and teases me by sticking stickers on my body or flicking my hat or what have you, kind of like an elementary school kid does when they have a crush.

I try my best to find a balance between being deadpan and friendly but it's tempting to pretend I don't notice because he seems extra lenient toward me because of it. I know that's wrong, but it's rough out there, you know? My last boss was very un-empathetic and harsh so it's been refreshing for someone to give me a little wiggle room when I'm struggling. I'm in my early 20s and he's in his late 20s so I find that refreshing as well, we have more in common than I did with my 60 something year old boss. It would be really cool if he wasn't most likely trying to get in my pants.

Line 4 is probably encouraging me to go to HR, and possibly even lay down a hard boundary to his face. I suspect the main + relating hex combination might even be implying looking for a different job too. Whatever yi is recommending, it seems drastic and a little harsh. Thanks in advance :)
 

Marinaflsenda

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This is a very sensitive subject so I will write what I consider lines 4 is saying according to WR.

"A worn-out bed blanket hurts".

"It seems here you´re going out of defences, which leaves you unprotected and exposed and this can only result in disgrace.

Great care is needed at this point, because, within this overall negative picture you have already been affected and, therefore, you don´t have many chances left. "

I hope my reading helps and I wish you the best of luck in this horrible matter.
 

thisismybody

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Tough and touchy situation. He sounds immature, not dangerous.

From personal experience, I advise against going to HR unless he does something you wouldn’t know how to handle on your own. Bc “turning him in” will most likely have a more negative impact on you than him. At worst, they fire him. Do you want that? At best, they talk to him and put it in his file. How do you think that will affect your exchanges with him? Or your other coworkers?

Be careful not to strip away your own bed. Or give away your power to set boundaries.

HR exists not to protect the employee, but the company. I only advise going to them if you know no other way to stand up for yourself. Or his behavior becomes dangerous and more serious than stickers and hair flipping. It may be overkill at this point.

An alternative is to let him know directly so he has a chance to hear you, address it and change. You’ll burn the bridge with him otherwise. 56.6 behavior. (You may burn the bridge by telling him also!)

Treat him like a human. He’s free to like you. If you don’t want him to touch you, tell him. It may be innocent. He may have no clue how you feel. He may be unaware of how he’s perceived.

I have been on both sides working for a large corporation in a male-dominated field. I’ve dealt with everything from sexual advances of married men to full on hostility and hatred. I’ve also been turned in for off handed comments men make themselves. And I’ve been turned in on made up accounts.

I learned that the best practice is to set boundaries early. That’s your job, not HR’s job. Don’t give away your power or sovereignty. And if that doesn’t work, then go to them bc you don’t know what else to do. So let it be a last resort.

Lastly, I’d be real circumspect with an answer like 23.4. Someone gets harmed here. Something is stripped away.
 
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thisismybody

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How do you feel about setting boundaries? Could this be an opportunity for you to do so?

Another interpretation could be that the Yi is telling you that this job is 23.4 for you and that you’ll eventually have to strip it away. I’ve had it about a job stripping away my health and my need to leave. Could be Yi’s overall comment on the job, not about him or going to HR.
 

floranova

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On 3rd thought, did you already decide to go to HR before asking Yi? Or did you interpret 23.4 as a need to go to HR?
My dad recommended that I go to HR but I hesitate to because I'm a bit concerned about a change in dynamic like you said. Last thing I want is for him to start resenting me, but something does need to change. I usually don't have a hard time laying down boundaries, but I'm not sure why I feel nervous this time. Doesn't matter though, I'm uncomfortable and I can't let him think I'm secretly into him, cause I had a situation last year where I thought someone was into me who wasn't and it really hurt. I'm kind of relieved you recommended against HR though because that did feel intense.
 

floranova

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If he's doing it to you, so comfortably, then he's done it before.
Line 4 suggests the damage has been done here and it needs to be sorted out.
I'm curious what the damage is so I asked and got hex 39uc... hmm. Maybe it's commenting on my hesitation to lay down a boundary? Maybe I've been too slow to say something, and he has developed an idea that I'm interested too? I don't think my behavior really reflects that but I can't control someone else's perception.
 

Trojina

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This is a very sensitive subject so I will write what I consider lines 4 is saying according to WR.

"A worn-out bed blanket hurts".
I don't know who WR is ? I've never seen this line translated that way before, it's not about a bed blanket.


Line 4 is probably encouraging me to go to HR, and possibly even lay down a hard boundary to his face. I suspect the main + relating hex combination might even be implying looking for a different job too. Whatever yi is recommending, it seems drastic and a little harsh. Thanks in advance :)
I think it's certainly a situation to guard against. It may feel easier not to go to HR but that's not a reason not to do it. Tolerating it can be allowing this undermining influence to go so far as to impact the whole job. That is if you tolerate it it looks like there'd be a 23.4 scenario, tolerating it is 23.4 and that is the harm.


I'm curious what the damage is so I asked and got hex 39uc... hmm.
It's not a good idea to base another question just on the idea 'there will be damage' that will just complicate things...it's clear what the harm/damage is it is in 23.4, you are in it right there, being undermined, losing one's place. This kind of flirting whilst looking harmless can end up being very undermining as the woman almost has no option to play along, gets entangled and then he pulls the rug out from under here or here he pulls the bed out, the resting place. That can end up you feeling so incomfortable you leave, I have seen that before.

I know he's flirting because he comments positively on my appearance often, he stands way too close to me whenever he gets the chance, he makes (very) vaguely suggestive comments, and teases me by sticking stickers on my body or flicking my hat or what have you, kind of like an elementary school kid does when they have a crush.
This is on the one hand seemingly low key but it is absolutely not okay. You are at work, he doesn't have the right to touch you, to stick things on you, he's not 3 years old he doesn't have to 'play' by sticking things on you. All this is very undermining to you long term and it goes on because women think 'oh it's harmless and I can't make a fuss' yes you can because this dick needs to treat you like a human being not an animal to pet!

Treat him like a human. He’s free to like you. If you don’t want him to touch you, tell him. It may be innocent. He may have no clue how you feel. He may be unaware of how he’s perceived.
He could start by treating her like she's human. If a man in his late 20s doesn't know he cannot just touch women at work maybe he's not fit to work at all. Why should she even have to tell him he can't touch her, he shouldn't be touching her anyway. Nor should he be commenting on hr appearance unless they are close and it's their way as friends but he's not a friend is he ? He is free to like her but not free to touch her, get close to her, stick things on her or talk about her looks. How could this be innocent. He knows the difference between touching and not touching I should think.


From personal experience, I advise against going to HR unless he does something you wouldn’t know how to handle on your own. Bc “turning him in” will most likely have a more negative impact on you than him. At worst, they fire him. Do you want that? At best, they talk to him and put it in his file. How do you think that will affect your exchanges with him? Or your other coworkers?
That sounds a bit like saying 'don't complain or it will be worse for you' which is what we want to get away from isn't it. Women have had to do this at work for decades, it needs to change and it shouldn't be put on her as her responsibility. I get you are saying 'this is what the reality is' but it's not one to live with is it?

HR exists not to protect the employee, but the company. I only advise going to them if you know no other way to stand up for yourself. Or his behavior becomes dangerous and more serious than stickers and hair flipping. It may be overkill at this point.
Actually stickers and hair flipping is bad enough already. It's not what a woman should have to experience at work unless she's really okay with it and the guy is a friend etc. Otherwise no, of course not, he shouldn't be doing that. He's not 5 years old. I can't see him a poor little boy who doesn't know he can't stick things on women.

I learned that the best practice is to set boundaries early. That’s your job, not HR’s job. Don’t give away your power or sovereignty. And if that doesn’t work, then go to them bc you don’t know what else to do. So let it be a last resort.
HR is there to protect women from sexism or at least should be. I realise it falls short of the ideal but how can she not give away her power if he is sticking things on her ...she just had it taken from her. It is a disempowering act on his part and he should know better as a grown man and it is abusive.


Practically I guess you could just freeze him out instead but I don't think it's right, I think your dad is right about going to HR but it's up to you of course. Either way I would prioritize keeping your position simply because pressures like these can very much undermine your stability long term which is what the 23.4 is about.
 
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Liselle

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23.4 changes to 35, so it seems something like serious consequences (23.4) from a desire to go as far as you can (breed the horses as fast as they can manage, 35).

I'm somewhere in the middle here, I think. Yes, he absolutely, positively should know better already. Has he been in a cave in recent years? :rolleyes:

On the other hand, should the first way he finds out how you feel be an official action by HR? That could be the reading, I think.

(Analogy: most bosses I've had have made the point that they don't wait for your official, recorded-on-paper performance review to say anything to you about things you're not doing well.)

Could you start by finding some lower-key way to register your disapproval? You said "deadpan and friendly" isn't working, so a step up from that, I guess...I don't have an actual suggestion.

---

Hm, though...I'll let all that there, but on the other hand, if you read this as a very direct answer:
Question: "How should I handle this?"
Answer: "Strip it away as severely as possible by advancing it as far as you can."

That could mean the HR solution. You asked Yi for advice, so take it as advice.

Not sure, though. Direct answer, or warning about the consequences of what you had in your head (HR) but didn't put in your question? I've had Yi say that to me sometimes - ask about what you're thinking.

(Was the thread title your literal question?)

(ditto Trojina's "who's WR" question)
 

Trojina

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What bugs me about this kind of situation, speaking from experience and observation is the woman being treated like this is in a lose lose bind. Even if she is treated as subhuman 'look I can just touch you whenever I want' she is meant to act just the right way and if she doesn't it's all down to her 'lack of boundaries'. It doesn't sound much on paper but if you are in an office with someone being too close, invading your space, sticking things on your and flicking your hair then that person is being incredibly inappropriate and he should know it.
 

Marinaflsenda

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I don't know who WR is ? I've never seen this line translated that way before, it's not about a bed blanket.



I think it's certainly a situation to guard against. It may feel easier not to go to HR but that's not a reason not to do it. Tolerating it can be allowing this undermining influence to go so far as to impact the whole job. That is if you tolerate it it looks like there'd be a 23.4 scenario, tolerating it is 23.4 and that is the harm.



It's not a good idea to base another question just on the idea 'there will be damage' that will just complicate things...it's clear what the harm/damage is it is in 23.4, you are in it right there, being undermined, losing one's place. This kind of flirting whilst looking harmless can end up being very undermining as the woman almost has no option to play along, gets entangled and then he pulls the rug out from under here or here he pulls the bed out, the resting place. That can end up you feeling so incomfortable you leave, I have seen that before.


This is on the one hand seemingly low key but it is absolutely not okay. You are at work, he doesn't have the right to touch you, to stick things on you, he's not 3 years old he doesn't have to 'play' by sticking things on you. All this is very undermining to you long term and it goes on because women think 'oh it's harmless and I can't make a fuss' yes you can because this dick needs to treat you like a human being not an animal to pet!


He could start by treating her like she's human. If a man in his late 20s doesn't know he cannot just touch women at work maybe he's not fit to work at all. Why should she even have to tell him he can't touch her, he shouldn't be touching her anyway. Nor should he be commenting on hr appearance unless they are close and it's their way as friends but he's not a friend is he ? He is free to like her but not free to touch her, get close to her, stick things on her or talk about her looks. How could this be innocent. He knows the difference between touching and not touching I should think.



That sounds a bit like saying 'don't complain or it will be worse for you' which is what we want to get away from isn't it. Women have had to do this at work for decades, it needs to change and it shouldn't be put on her as her responsibility. I get you are saying 'this is what the reality is' but it's not one to live with is it?


Actually stickers and hair flipping is bad enough already. It's not what a woman should have to experience at work unless she's really okay with it and the guy is a friend etc. Otherwise no, of course not, he shouldn't be doing that. He's not 5 years old. I can't see him a poor little boy who doesn't know he can't stick things on women.


HR is there to protect women from sexism or at least should be. I realise it falls short of the ideal but how can she not give away her power if he is sticking things on her ...she just had it taken from her. It is a disempowering act on his part and he should know better as a grown man and it is abusive.


Practically I guess you could just freeze him out instead but I don't think it's right, I think your dad is right about going to HR but it's up to you of course. Either way I would prioritize keeping your position simply because pressures like these can very much undermine your stability long term which is what the 23.4 is about.
Hi, Troyina, I´m Spanish, and I use a translation of Richard Wilhem (W.R) in my language :)
Maybe I didn´t do a right one into English in my post, sorry.
 

Sarah_

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From my limited understanding 23.4 is a warning that danger is at hand. It’s a really severe warning to be careful. Whether that applies to be careful and not go to HR or be careful because this man is a risk to you it’s unclear. It sounds as though and I agree with thisismybody that he is not dangerous but absolutely needs to know it’s not appropriate to touch you, if you don’t want be touched and talk to you in a weird suggestive way at work (or anywhere). It is not okay though it sounds like he likes you and is making a mess of delivering that message. 🥴

I think the fact you prefaced this by saying you’d already decided you were going to go to HR.. is what Yi is responding to. I think going to HR is what could be the really big mistake. Because unless you can talk informally off the record with somebody they will have to put it on record and it could have massive fallout.

Next time something happens, could you say something… Say something to him quietly about his behaviour, about him making you feel a bit uncomfortable, and ask him not to stick stickers on you or touch you? Just speaking out loud, what he’s doing might be a bit of a shock to him in a good way?
 

ontheroad

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What bugs me about this kind of situation, speaking from experience and observation is the woman being treated like this is in a lose lose bind. Even if she is treated as subhuman 'look I can just touch you whenever I want' she is meant to act just the right way and if she doesn't it's all down to her 'lack of boundaries'. It doesn't sound much on paper but if you are in an office with someone being too close, invading your space, sticking things on your and flicking your hair then that person is being incredibly inappropriate and he should know it.
This is what I meant by the damage is already done - His Inappropriateness!!
Why are you letting him get away with it.
Tell HR and wherever the chips fall, they do. Is this a dream job or can you do better for yourself?
 

Trojina

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Also don't underestimate long term consequences of this kind of thing for females. It can really knock a person back, being messed with emotionally, making it harder to go to work, even affecting long term prospects and mental health.

I don't think floranova should have to face him,( he is her boss) and challenge him, why should she. Nor do I think him not appearing dangerous has anything to do with it, it's not about that. How can she challenge her boss anyway, it's not an equal power situation.

If her father says to go to HR I think perhaps he is right. I don't understand some of these replies they seem along the lines of 'don't cause trouble, he can't help it, he likes you'.....that's not the point. Sarah said
It is not okay though it sounds like he likes you and is making a mess of delivering that message. 🥴
I don't agree. This man is her boss not a puppy. This is not about him liking her like a schoolboy and just being to awkward to show it other than sticking things on her clothes. It's sexual harassment not some poor 14 year old not knowing how to show a girl he likes her. He is in a position of authority over her and he needs to be stopped not made excuses for. It does depend on what floranova wants/feels but I feel this is serious enough now to deal with now. It could be a lose lose situation because reporting it may make it too difficult to stay, saying something to him might make it hard or too stressful. However I think the 23.4 is saying it could also fall apart anyway even if not reported because of the undermining nature of the harassment and that is what it is.

It looks to me a completely regressive situation, women shouldn't have to deal with that anymore it should be a thing of the past. Don't forget he is her boss so there is no excuse, he's not just a co worker which would be bad enough.
 
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Liselle

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If it were me, I think I might ask another question or two - just because it's a serious situation (maybe for you, too), so the firmer the ground, the better. I at least am not sure what angle Yi's coming from as I said up above. (Not that that matters, of course.)

Maybe just something like, "What if I go right to HR?" Very focussed.
 

Liselle

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Hm, though...I'll let all that there, but on the other hand, if you read this as a very direct answer:
Question: "How should I handle this?"
Answer: "Strip it away as severely as possible by advancing it as far as you can."

That could mean the HR solution. You asked Yi for advice, so take it as advice.
Oh good grief argh. I don't know how I overlooked this. The omen in 23.4 is pitfall. I don't see how it could possibly mean do the most drastic thing.


added later...I suppose it could mean go right ahead and cause a pitfall for him, which is more or less what I was wondering in the quoted part. But if it were me I'd want to know it wasn't somehow going to be my pitfall.
 
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floranova

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Also don't underestimate long term consequences of this kind of thing for females. It can really knock a person back, being messed with emotionally, making it harder to go to work, even affecting long term prospects and mental health.

I don't think floranova should have to face him,( he is her boss) and challenge him, why should she. Nor do I think him not appearing dangerous has anything to do with it, it's not about that. How can she challenge her boss anyway, it's not an equal power situation.

If her father says to go to HR I think perhaps he is right. I don't understand some of these replies they seem along the lines of 'don't cause trouble, he can't help it, he likes you'.....that's not the point. Sarah said

I don't agree. This man is her boss not a puppy. This is not about him liking her like a schoolboy and just being to awkward to show it other than sticking things on her clothes. It's sexual harassment not some poor 14 year old not knowing how to show a girl he likes her. He is in a position of authority over her and he needs to be stopped not made excuses for. It does depend on what floranova wants/feels but I feel this is serious enough now to deal with now. It could be a lose lose situation because reporting it may make it too difficult to stay, saying something to him might make it hard or too stressful. However I think the 23.4 is saying it could also fall apart anyway even if not reported because of the undermining nature of the harassment and that is what it is.

It looks to me a completely regressive situation, women shouldn't have to deal with that anymore it should be a thing of the past. Don't forget he is her boss so there is no excuse, he's not just a co worker which would be bad enough.
I really appreciate you, trojina! Being a woman really is a nightmare a lot of the time. It can be dangerous to lay down boundaries or reject men, but it's also dangerous to not do so. There's no pleasant or easy way for this to play out. I'm not terribly attached to my job though, I work in a grocery store for $16 an hour so it's not like it would be a big loss if I did leave. Honestly, given how lenient he's been with me in terms of attendance and being on time (life has been rough) I could see him deciding to become strict with me if he doesn't get what he wants.... maybe I should start looking around for something else. It wouldn't necessarily be me tucking my tail since I wasn't really trying that hard to hold onto the job anyway, and I'm not getting anything out of it I can't find somewhere else. What do you think?
 

floranova

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This is what I meant by the damage is already done - His Inappropriateness!!
Why are you letting him get away with it.
Tell HR and wherever the chips fall, they do. Is this a dream job or can you do better for yourself?
I don't care about the job but I worry whether it's proportionate to cause him to potentially lose his job. Last year I had a situation where I misinterpreted someone's friendly actions as romantic interest so I have to wonder if I'm unknowingly doing that to him... I suffered a lot from that situation and I don't want to be a hypocrite and punish this guy just in case I've accidentally given off the wrong signals, you know?
 

floranova

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If it were me, I think I might ask another question or two - just because it's a serious situation (maybe for you, too), so the firmer the ground, the better. I at least am not sure what angle Yi's coming from as I said up above. (Not that that matters, of course.)

Maybe just something like, "What if I go right to HR?" Very focussed.
I asked the suggested question and got 28.2.5.6 > 56. I don't know if I like that answer.... and line 2 made me gag a little given the context lol.

Then I asked "what if I say something to his face?" And got 53.5 > 52. That's definitely better, maybe saying he'd be a bit cold and distant with me at first but would eventually forgive me? The relating hex is confusing though

Finally, I asked "what if I ignored the situation and just got a new job?" And got 29.4.6 > 6. Well that's a hard "don't" if I've ever seen one.

I really don't want to say anything to his face so out of desperation I asked "is there any alternative?" And got 57uc. Maybe just showing through my body language and behavior/responses that I'm not interested? It's not the most mature thing to do but men can be so scary and mean when they feel rejected.
 

floranova

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I also asked the other day if he's any threat to me, and got 6.2.5 > 35... line 2 sounds like he's more likely to give up or possibly suggesting that I give up and line 5 seems to be saying I should bring someone else into the matter, but I don't know if HR is the right option. I hate this 🫠
 
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floranova

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I'm leaning right now toward confiding in a female coworker rather than going to HR. One lady in our department pointed out to me the other day that a male customer was spending a suspicious amount of time in the areas I was working in, so I know for sure she's the type to look out for fellow women. I just don't want to make this dude's life fall apart just in case I did something that could be construed as flirting, cause I've been on the other end of that. Maybe this is my karma for being upset at the guy I thought was flirting with me last year 💀
 

Liselle

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28 to 56, stress/strain/collapsing ridgepole changing to travelling through.

It might make sense to group 28.2 and 28.5 together as one message, and 28.6 as a second one. Very guess-y... maybe 28.2.5 could be what you said, a description of the situation. Maybe the fellow's trying to add some flowers into his otherwise boring day?? Here are two lines of life in a hexagram about a roof threatening to collapse. What "collapses" in lines 2 and 5 are situations that seem withered, but then lo and behold, some life. Maybe what I said, he's bored.

They change to 62. 62 steps over big lines in small ways (vs. 28 which steps over big lines in big ways). As much as he shouldn't do what he's doing, this also seems true. He's not, for instance, saying sleep with me or I'll sabotage your job. That would be worth collapsing the ridgepole over, but it's not what's happening.

28.6. Hilary's translation...
'Exceeding in wading the river, head underwater.
Pitfall.
No mistake.'

It does say no mistake. But Hilary doesn't lean on that very much in her commentary - she explains it as just the natural consequence of wading into the river.

Oh wait - "no mistake" can also be translated as "no blame" or even "no ancestors are angered." Maybe it makes sense that way. There'd be no blame in you going to HR, but you'd have to be willing to accept a pitfall. Hilary ends by asking, "So how far are you prepared to go?"

So maybe overall it might mean "Here's what he's doing / what the situation is (28.2.5), and if you go to HR, here's what would happen (28.6), and what do you think about that?"


I like 53.5 too, especially with boundaries in the background (52). He needs to be reminded they exist.

Does your co-worker know him better than you do, has she worked there longer? That might help.

If it's what you mean, I remember your other thread.
 

thisismybody

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I just don't want to make this dude's life fall apart just in case I did something that could be construed as flirting, cause I've been on the other end of that.
Bingo. Our perceptions aren’t always clear. No need to start a fire. Just casually tell him if he touches you that you dislike being touched. I’ve done it. I had a man touch my hair and I simply told him not to. I didn’t go to HR. He was shocked and super apologetic when he realized I don’t like it.
 

thisismybody

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I also asked the other day if he's any threat to me, and got 6.2.5 > 35... line 2 sounds like he's more likely to give up or possibly suggesting that I give up and line 5 seems to be saying I should bring someone else into the matter, but I don't know if HR is the right option. I hate this 🫠
Perhaps it’s reflecting your inner conflict. I get this hex a lot for my own issue with whatever it is.

Do you think he’s losing sleep like this?
 

thisismybody

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Here's what he's doing / what the situation is (28.2.5), and if you go to HR, here's what would happen (28.6), and what do you think about that?"


I like 53.5 too, especially with boundaries in the background (52). He needs to be reminded they exist.
All of this: yes. I like the “bored” interpretation too.
 

Trojina

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Just casually tell him if he touches you that you dislike being touched. I’ve done it.
In my country I think it is he who would be given a 'casual' reprimand because he should be reprimanded by his boss. It is something to take seriously, not something a woman ought to have to handle totally by herself.

It may well be a sledge hammer to crack a nut to go to HR at this point however it is still something to take serious thought and action over particularly keeping a record of what he does so if it does escalate you have evidence and also evidence by talking to the other women you work with.

Liselle moved some of this thread to moderation here as there was objection to what I'd said


 
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TheOtherLiss

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I don't care about the job but I worry whether it's proportionate to cause him to potentially lose his job. Last year I had a situation where I misinterpreted someone's friendly actions as romantic interest so I have to wonder if I'm unknowingly doing that to him... I suffered a lot from that situation and I don't want to be a hypocrite and punish this guy just in case I've accidentally given off the wrong signals, you know?
I sent you a DM.

Documentation is everything.
 

floranova

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Hey guys I still haven't taken any outright action cause I'm very nervous and overwhelmed because I'm in the process of moving at the moment, but I will keep y'all updated. Still planning on talking to the female coworker 🫡
 

floranova

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Update: I'm still too nervous to say anything outright but I've taken a huge step back, stopped being so friendly and have made an effort to say something when I don't like what he's doing. He flicked my hat again the other day and I said "I would prefer if you didn't" and left it at that. He's being a lot less friendly now and I overheard him the other day talking to a store director and he described me as "marginally not the best" so I guess I really should make sure someone knows something. My female coworker isn't here today but next time I see her I'll make sure she's made aware. Men are exhausting and childish.
 

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