Carol Anthony & Hanna Moog's Oracle of the Cosmic Way

[heylise]

Hi Paul,

I do have Carol Anthony's book, and two others too. I really like them, but after an initial enthusiasm, I went on to other sources. One of the important reasons was her continuous tearing down of the ego. It is not at all wrong what she says, but where is the other side? It is like disliking the ugly things many people say, and then being against speaking: throwing away the baby...

I agree that the bathwater of the ego can be quite dirty. But the ego itself is not. It is a great feature we have all been born with. It just depends what we do with it. It is supposed to make us individuals, strong enough to stand for our ideas. With the courage to be unique, even when the entire rest of the world disagrees.

With politics she does more or less the same. Ego's can really clash in a political discussion. Easily going from politics to personal attacks. Here again it depends what you do with you ego.
I do like talking politics, as long as it is talking, discussing, sharing opinions and knowledge. I thoroughly dislike it, when anyone in the discussion gets personally questioned about his ideas. Questioning the idea itself is fine, but not the person who has the guts to come out with it... (schoolmarm is shaking a finger at Luis..)

I would love to have Hilary's right-winger here for asking him how you can live without paying taxes. Well, I know, you can withdraw on a little piece of land, grow you own food and survive on your own. But how could he meet Hilary? Must have been a big trip. First on horseback crosscountry, because he cannot use a tax-paid road. Crossing rivers.. all bridges are built with tax-money. Maybe flying is no problem, enough companies which are privately owned and are happy to fly you anywhere. In England he'd have to go to a rent-a-horse. Do they have any near airports? And making the money for his trip cannot be that easy too. On horseback to your job.. maybe he happened to live next door to Microsoft? That would explain a lot.
Just kidding, and it begins to look a bit like making the poor man ridiculous.. what I am so much against myself. But it would be interesting..

Talking with him, and with a new-age lefty. One who does not begin with telling everyone his/her ideas are the only ones fit for humanity. And someone from the middle road, and another one with no road at all, just with some ideas, regardless of left or right. And a discussion without blaming a person either, because what use is it to be angry at Bush, when more than 50% chose for him? It is a lot more interesting to figure out why people choose something, and not something else.

LiSe

 

[kevin]

It is intresting that Europe stepped in to give aid to help with New Orleans. Perhaps no country is wealthy enough to be able to respond quickly enough to all of its crises. The view was that there was a crisis and there was a humanitarian need. The USA has often stepped in to help other countries in the same vein.

The perplexing thing is that when a Citizen has a crisis there seems to be a different attitude?

--Kevin

 

[theinneryes]

Hi LiSe,

I do know what you mean...'The Oracle of the Cosmic Way' is relentless in pursuit of its target!

I'm in the midst of a crisis - relationship, financial, work, you name it. Although I've gained some extraordinary insights from The Oracle, I'm presently contemplating the possibility that, contrary to the intention, saying the inner no may amplify the ego's grip.

Feeling in need of another source of inspiration yesterday I came across the Abraham-Hicks book 'Ask and it is Given' and found this:

"Since this is an attraction-based Universe, there is no such thing as exclusion. Everything is about inclusion. So, when you see something that you would like to experience and you focus upon it, shouting *yes* to it, you include it in your experience. But when you see something that you would not want to experience, and you focus on it, shouting *no* at it, you also include that in your experience. You do not invite it in with your *yes* and exclude it with your *no*, because there is no exclusion in this attraction-based Universe. Your focus is the invitation. Your attention to it is the invitation."

This seems to makes sense. I'm pretty sure Carol & Hanna say that you can't replace a negative idea or belief with a positive one. And they do say that the inner no must come from the heart. But saying an inner yes from the heart to an idea that's in harmony with the Cosmos intutively feels more correct than saying an inner no from the heart to an idea that isn't.

I do feel that as a source of guidance on root causes of problems 'The Oracle of the Cosmic Way' is invaluable. But for me the jury is out on the efficacy of it's deprograming process.

Paul

 

[hilary]

Devil's advocate...

Why shouldn't we pay private firms to maintain or construct our roads and bridges? If the government disappeared, we'd all start doing it soon enough. The UK's railways were privately built originally...

(Actually, the irate rightwinger and I argued over the internet, and that infrastructure is doing absolutely fine without any governments building it, afaik.)

It is interesting to figure out why people choose what they do - or why a whole country chooses, almost without knowing that it does. How do you think the 'average Dutchman' would fill in the footballer blank? (Be sure to ask him when you next see him.

)

 

[heylise]

I think many Dutch would fill in things ranging from outragous to 'not quite right'. IF it is about any footballplayer. Not if it is about their own money...

What interest me is why things happen in a certain way in one country, and in another way in another country. Why do footballplayers get that much in America - which is perectly ok with me - and why not in Holland -which is just as ok with me. Things happen, even when many people disagree, so there must be something in their general make-up, or in the way they organzed things, or where-ever, which makes it like that.

In America I recognize many things which also happen in communities of immigrants in any country, only on a very big scale. A strange mixture of front-fighters and conservationism, very often even in the same person. Very different from the 'average' Dutch. Nobody average exists of course, it comes from the weird notion that you can actually divide a group of a million people through a million, and get anything like a result.

I like them both. They both are as they are, and do quite interesting things with it. America is the standard bearer of democracy and chooses every four years an emperor - from 2 or 2-and-a-half readymade emperors they have hardly any say in. Interesting! I guess it is very much like Paul says, or Hicks: the yes and the no are both part of what you choose, always.

It is for such things that I like political discussion, or anthropological, or zoological. The difference between the three is minimal.

LiSe

 

[heylise]

"not in Holland", about the footballplayer, guess that is not according to reality...
LiSe

 

[hilary]

I was thinking probably not...

 

[heylise]

I can only agree whole-heartedly with the inner yes. It feels even as much more than just saying yes to 'something', it feels as living yes.

LiSe

 

[luz]

I like what Luis wrote. I also like what Micheline wrote, it's just a different opinion. I was thinking of saying what Luis said, most immigrants that come to this country are hard workers. And, in some ways, they have an advantage over the 'natives' that could take those jobs, I think. Maybe it's just my perception, but besides the fact that immigrants come here knowing they will have to work hard, they also bring with them some sense of self pride that seems to be lacking in some of the underprivileged people in this country.

And I'm sure that there are people that abuse the system. That is human nature. It will happen all the time, everywhere. But that is no reason to do without welfare or to kill the idea of universal healthcare. Also, I sincerely don't think that some people have babies just to get more money. It doesn't add up, no matter how I look at it, I can't imagine they will be getting that much money.

And Bruce, yes, most of us immigrants do it legally and now the only difference between you and me is that you can be president and I can't!!

And you make a great point about your grandparents, most people in this country are descendants of immigrants (or is it all people in this country?)..

As to why football players get that much money.. hey, I just heard on the radio that Britney Spears is getting 3 million dollars for her baby's pictures!

! Maybe it's about worshipping success. I don't care how well she can sing or that other one can play football. It's all about the fact they are rich and famous and that seems to be very attractive to americans..

 

[bruce]

Angel, so an immigrant can't be president. Gee, how unfair. I tried to immigrate to New Zealand once (you know, that pacifistic and lovely culture?), and they made no apology for requiring I had a significant sum of money to bring with me to their country, in order to obtain citizenship.

Why a football player would receive a huge sum? That's easy: consumerism, supply/demand, ROI. I have no problem with that. No, not everyone has that same skill or opportunity, but anyone with enough desire and guts here can make a decent living, regardless of the obstacles they're born into. Just look at the Asian and East Indian population in the US, who put most natural Americans to shame.

 

[Sparhawk]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Luis, watered down though it may be, there still is a significant population of highly addicted welfare dependants. Some should receive benefits who can't, and many are receiving it who really shouldn't. I don't think anyone who is upset with out-of-control illegal immigration have any problem with going about it legitimately, legally. All four of my Grandparents did it that way, and I'm guessing so have you?<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Well other than the fact that the Conquistadores and the Mayflower pilgrims just LANDED here and created a tsunami of people, yes, I came "legally". But, and a big but (and I'm not talking about my wife... ) it is, to take the example of your grandparents (and mine in my own South American country) immigrated here when the only thing you needed to come was to get on a ship bound for America. You would show up at the port, fill a few papers, go thru a medical exam, and Lady Liberty herself would give you a smiling welcome. Alas, America, a few decades ago, decided to close the gates on the easy immigration that your grandparents enjoyed. If it was today, they would face a very steep legal hill, with many years of waiting, IF they were granted residency at all... If it was today, your gene pool may still be solidly seated in Europe (which I'm assuming is where your grandparents came from).

As for myself, it took me ten hard years, from landing to citizenship (and utterly proud of it, thank you). At some point, fairness was lost in this country for LEGAL immigrants.

Regarind welfare benefits, like with everything else, and you well pointed it out, there will be people who abuse the system (and know how to do it) and there are those whom the system will leave behind. The point is that the "system" is electing to leave behind many more "deserving" people than is prudent, fair or decent. There will always be abusers, as there will always exist robbers, rapists, prostitutes, violent husbands (and wives), etc., etc. There is a way to deal with all of those if caught; however, because there are abusers of the system, it doesn't mean the system has to shut down and turn the back on everybody, the same way you can't ban sex to deal with prostitution...

I don't subscribe to the concept that the government should only be an enforcer of laws and a tax collector to fund braindead projects like the war in Irak. A government, any, is also there to support their people in need and yes, that burden falls on everybody's shoulders. That responsibility is what really makes a country.

Luis

 

[Sparhawk]

ahem... "Regarding" I HATE misspellings...

 

[luz]

Bruce,

I'm not upset that I can't be president.

As Luis points out, it's no piece of cake immigrating here either. But that's okay too.

And you are right about anyone with the desire and the guts being able to make a living. There are exceptional people everywhere. But the average Joe.. What makes children succeed in school, for instance? encouragement, support, parental love, a little pushiness doesn't hurt. If all you can think of is how to pay the rent, how to get the food, it's a bit hard to be a loving, pushy parent. I'm not saying it's the government's fault, it's just the way it is.

For instance, my daughter attends what is called here 'a magnet school' for the arts. It's a public school. You have to qualify by audition and it's a great school, much, much (ten times) smaller than a regular high school, good academics, great environment. What do you think the kids there have in common? talent??? no, supportive parents, rich-enough parents that can afford an instrument and private lessons.. most of the kids there are pretty well off.. equal opportunity?? It's nobody's fault but the underprivileged do not have an equal opportunity.

 

[luz]

Btw, asian parents are extreeeeeeeemly pushy, very success oriented from what I hear.

These are just my thoughts. I could be very wrong..

 

[Sparhawk]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

For instance, my daughter attends what is called here 'a magnet school' for the arts. It's a public school. You have to qualify by audition and it's a great school, much, much (ten times) smaller than a regular high school, good academics, great environment. What do you think the kids there have in common? talent??? no, supportive parents, rich-enough parents that can afford an instrument and private lessons.. most of the kids there are pretty well off.. equal opportunity?? It's nobody's fault but the underprivileged do not have an equal opportunity.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Thank you!!! I couldn't have said it better... It is a great observation.

Yes, it is true also that if you have the will (and some brain to back it up) you can make a great future in this country. I know I have. Circumstances, however, can change at any moment, for any unforeseen reason. It is then that you should be able to count on your government for help.

L

 

[hilary]

What the government needs is a pill to create outstanding parents.

I grew up in one of the few areas of the UK still to have the 11+ system. This means that at age 11, children sit aptitude tests to determine which school they'll go to. Those who pass go to grammar schools; those who fail go to secondary moderns. (This should all probably be in the past tense - I don't know that the system surivives anywhere nowadays.) You can imagine that it's the grammar schools that have high expectations, high exam results, etc.

I failed the 11+.

So I was put on the register for the local secondary modern, where apparently they were very surprised when I wasn't in class at the beginning of term. My parents had forked out for me to go to (actually stay at) a private school. (Which also had high expectations, excellent teaching, good results, extracurricular activities, and special coaching for Oxbridge applicants.)

With other parents there would probably have been new clothes, new cars, new domestic appliances, holidays to hotels. And I'd have gone to the secondary modern - and would I have got any 'A' levels, let alone degrees? Who knows?

Saw a mother on TV the other day explaining to camera why she hadn't talked to her child. She hadn't known it was important, had she? No-one told her.

 

[bruce]

The stories I've been told from my grandparents weren't about an easy immigration. They were about being required to have a fundamental grasp of the native tongue (English) and the laws of the land, and a means to support themselves and their families. My Grandfather (on Dad's side) shoed horses, worked long days, and gradually developed (53?

) his skills with a hammer, forge and wrought iron, into a profitable craft. His sons learned from him, and the extended family flourished as a result. Italians (then commonly referred to as Ginnie, Whap and Dego) were not received into this culture as equals. But that didn't stop them from working hard and earning their right to a respectable place in this country.

I do agree that ?pushy? parents can have a great deal of positive influence. There were none pushier than my grandparents with their kids. They knew an opportunity when they saw one, and made sure their kids walked a hard working and honorable path. Not a so-common trait today, though it does still happen, even within the ?underprivileged?.

 

[kevin]

Hi Hilary

Very simply because firstly the company has to make a profit on top of providing the service and secondly because they will drive hard against the contract specification because that is in the intrest of their survival and their share holders.

I first met this in mining where a public company was driven by government to use a private company to sink (the deepest in the UK) mine shaft... they scrimped on the cement in the conctrete mix and many died.

Now in the NHS we are tired of paying ?1500 a week for contracted out private beds in hopsitals who hire locum doctors we would not employ... We provide a better clinical service for about half of that (the food is not as good though).

For me it is about quality assurance and inspection of the service being deliverred... We are learning fast how to do that... usualy the committment to good care in the public sector is better, however the way the government funds we are forced to use the private sector in various areas... believe me I have had to remove patients from private hospitals because the treatment was so outdated and poorly delivered.

--Kevin

 

[kevin]

Oh, and look at the mess in the railway system with so many accidents since the maintenance was contracted out...

 

[kevin]

Thinks... An observation... Again the thread has moved to the rights to this and the wrongs of that... But what of living in a country with such deep poverty... such human need... Welfare is not the only solution and at best it is only a quick fix...

Do people have to pull themselves up by their bootstraps before qualifying as worthwhile?

--K

 

[bruce]

Hi Kevin,

"Do people have to pull themselves up by their bootstraps before qualifying as worthwhile?"

That depends, I think, on whether you're using nature's rules or one of the many human ones. 'Humanity' has established rules, codes and ethics which distinguishes it from nature. Nature knows no other way than bootstraps. As for man's way, apart from nature's way, it's anybody's guess.

 

[hilary]

I was talking about the organic workings of people providing what people need - not thinking of government lavishing public funds on private firms. Not one of their better ideas, IMHO - maybe if someone near the top understood the concept of a false economy it would help...

But, but...

...how was British Rail's accident record? And wasn't our rail network originally constructed by private companies? And didn't BT's service get vastly better post-privatisation? Isn't it possible that private enterprise can actually do a better job of some things and still make money at it?

The other day I went to the doctor's surgery for a repeat prescription, 6 month supply. There is a Rule that says I must see a doctor for every other repeat. (It's actually just for a blood pressure check - stunning waste of a doctor's time... but anyway...)

So - I turn up and explain to the lady at the desk that I didn't see a doctor last time, and will therefore 'need' to this time. 'Really?' she says. 'I'm sure they'll give you a repeat prescription anyway.' I explain that on a previous occasion, this turned out to be just for 1 month, not 6. I'd just as soon have the appointment now.

But she insists. I put in the request without appointment, and the prescription gets processed and written by the doctor, packaged at the pharmacist - for one month.

One month on, and they have the job to do over, to process the six month prescription anyway. Why not do the six month prescription in the first place, and save time and money? Maybe because no-one at the surgery has an interest in doing so?

My mum-in-law was just told by her GP that of course the records of her appointment about 11 months previously weren't on the computer yet.

My Mum was just told that a new prescription couldn't be faxed from the hospital to her local surgery because it's a legal document, and legal documents can't be faxed. So it has to be posted, which takes longer and costs more. (The hospital consultant had to ring her about this in person, because his secretary wasn't allowed to take an elementary message about a prescription.)

Now, I have no criticism whatsoever of the people providing the medical service. I think an NHS is a great thing to have, and the stories I hear from the US of people going without essential treatment for lack of funds appal me.

But (but, but...) these minor little trickles of brainless inefficiency... if with just casual contact with the NHS, I see three in a week, how much of a flood must there really be? Is there a business in the world that's run like that??

</gibber>

 

[kevin]

Hi Hilary

Sorry to have misunderstood

Yes I must sound like I am anti private enterprise? not the case.

There are examples of dumbness on both sides? The railways were built privately? the three central lines from Scotland to London were a race between the three moghuls who had made a wager in a London club. There was massive loss of life building them because of the wager and the rush? 300 navi?s were killed building just one three mile stretch in the Yorkshire dales? The poor conditions led to many thousands dying of disease? for those not from the UK we are only talking about some 400 miles of track here.

Anyway? This is my last post on this? Sorry if I ranted? My concern, as someone who works with a lot of poor folk, is how to break the cycle of poverty and that will never be done by welfare benefits. It takes a political will to create opportunities which help people develop the confidence as well as the skills to break out of the cycle.

I think I was quite shocked at what appeared to be a large segregated and very poor population in New Orleans.

And now to silence

--Kevin

 

[littlebuddha]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

I agree that the bathwater of the ego can be quite dirty. But the ego itself is not. It is a great feature we have all been born with. It just depends what we do with it. It is supposed to make us individuals, strong enough to stand for our ideas. With the courage to be unique, even when the entire rest of the world disagrees.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

The ego is nothing more than an illusion. It is the wave that mistakenly believes that it stands alone and that, somehow, it is essentially separate and different from the ocean and from the other waves. To identify completely with it (by building it up and strengthening its personal resolve) is in error. This type of bolstering is the critical delusion that leads to and is responsible for all suffering and folly in human life.

The ego sense is not real, not accurate. It is not an actual energy or presence. It is imagination, misunderstanding, a false sense of Self - the result of an incomplete perception of who we are. It is a misidentification, a limited understanding of the facts based on our conditioning and the data we receive from our five physical senses only.

To emphasize personal Will, over Universal Will, points to ignorance of our real nature. The ego, afterall, is nothing more than a contraction of the all-pervading Being that is our essence. And so focus on strengthening the contraction places the intellect in a postion of considering itself the source of consciousness when in truth the individual intellect is merely the result of infinite consciousness being reflected through a particular nervous system. Failure to realize this produces egoism, a limited sense of "self".

The intellect must undergo a deliberate purification process (ie: daily yoga and meditation practice) so that it can learn to discriminate between itself and the unlimited consciousness that it reflects. Only in this way are the petty limitations of egoism transcended.

 

[hester]

"being on the side of the one who struggles
doesn't mean you are political."

bob dylan