Contradiction?

[pakua]

Hi everyone,

A newcomer here... I've been lurking awhile, soaking in all the knowledge and insights from you all. I'm quite the amateur at Yi still, so I was quite overjoyed to find a site such as this.

I had a question for anyone who is interested to give their opinion.

I've been involved with a woman for awhile, and it seems to be a loving relationship, and I'm ready to go to the next level, but she's very cautious. She came back last week from a trip abroad, and the first time I saw her, the Yi gave me Hx 46, line 3. My question was "what is the best I can be/expect at this time. Sounds good, so I started pushing lightly for doing more activities together. Then I saw her a few days later, same question, and got Hx 24, line 1. Also sounds good, so again, I suggested doing more together. Both times, there was some reluctance on her part. So then I went home and asked Yi what would be the best that could be for the next few months, and got Hx 64, line 2.

Now, Hx 64, line 2, makes sense to me. What doesn't make sense is Hx 46, line 3. Where was this unobstructed upward movement? Also 24, line 1, where is this new beginning?

I guess what confuses me is, from the three castings, the Yi is saying things look great, but be patient, but if I hadn't done the last casting, I would be very perplexed about why things weren't moving along. Couldn't the Yi have given an answer that combined everything?

Or am I asking too much?

Does anyone have any thoughts?

 

[candid]

"Couldn't the Yi have given an answer that combined everything?"

Yeah!

But seriously, 46.3 is simply saying that a way opens up to pursue your will. It doesn't guarantee success or bode failure.

24.1 is returning from a short distance. Its like saying 'whoa' to a horse bent on running. Since your relating hexagram to this reading was 2 (an actual picture of a strong mare), it suggests remaining grounded and having broad shoulders to bear with things as they are, and also being open to what might be. In other words, being led.

 

[stuart]

sixty four, two. is holding back for future advance.fourty six, three.Advance without any obstruction.There does not seem to be any obstruction in these readings.However there is impatience to hurry things along.Relax and let the situation grow,forcing the pace will sometimes cause the other person to hesitate.Perhaps alowing the lady to dictate the pace of events will give execelent results!.

 

[cheiron]

Hi PaKua

Agreeing with the above but putting some meat on the answers?

The Yijing can be very cautious about commenting on other people and to some degree your question encompassed not just your own way of being (wisely), but also the others return on it.

46.3 ? Remember that line 3 is in the lower trigram and although it sounds like an outer world thing the lower trigram might be seen as your inner world, the moment before the expression of your energy moves into the outer world of the upper trigram.

I would read it is a green light to let you move forward and manifest your feelings / energy. (46 is the manifestation half of the 45:46 Inspiration : Manifestation pair of Hxs?). As you know it moves to the time of Hx.7 ? Leading or organising things and ideas. Sounds like that is what you did? It sounds to me that you managed things with great awareness and sensitivity? also that you felt you had done it right? the latter counts for a lot too. But as Candid said ? no guarantee there of the desired outcome? indeed the reading tells you that it will not ?complete? just yet at this time? see below.

Following the fanyao qianyao ? 46.3 > 7.3 > 8.5 > 45.5
Let your feelings find clear and full manifestation within yourself. Organise your ideas and what you know. Examine the who you would be in this relationship and how you both might fit together. This will lead to a time when you may manifest this in the outer world with the other. But the wise one only uses beaters on three sides and a simple net on the fourth. Let that game which will come into the net come into it by its own volition? let those that choose to go by go free. By this way you may achieve the gathering of people you seek, but you will loose the ones not meant for you. The time is not in its fullness yet, things will become clearer, in time.

Sounds like what you did? you sure you need to ask the Yijing these questions?

Another comment on the ways of the Yijing? I have often known it to encourage me to do something which I would have deemed a ?failed? outcome had I known? however those events lead to other events which were most needed and welcomed. So like a child listening to a parent it takes a very sharp eye to catch the undertones sometimes.

More follows

Hope this is of some use.

--Kevin

 

[cheiron]

Candid

You still ranting up there in the thread?

--K

 

[candid]

The nerve of Yi! hee hee!

 

[cheiron]

Just adding a little onto what I started at the end of the post above.

The Yijing is very much process centred? it often gives answers not in outcomes, but in terms of leading folk through the process productively.
Knowing the likely outcome hinders the focus on the process.

It may have been this thought that led Mr C to his good humoured rant?

There is nothing would add to Candid?s comment on 24.1.

Oh, maybe I would have said 'Get Centred' you have drifted off a little from your core... Choice of words no more...

Moving on to the last reading?

--Kevin

 

[pakua]

Hi Cheiron, Stuart, Candid,

You all make excellent points. Thank you. I don't see where you draw your conclusion about 46.3 though. Every translation I read (except one) says "advance into the empty city... no obstruction". It doesn't say anything about putting on the brakes, like 64.2 says.

Candid, you're being very zennish when you say, I can pursue my will, yet I should be led. But 46.3 is about using your will to advance, with no obstruction. That indicates success, at least for the short term. So then, why "putting on the brakes"?

Stuart, you're right about my impatience, perhaps she picked up on that in some subtle way, but still, I thought 46.3 was about my will dictating the pace, not hers.

And Cheiron, you also mention no guarantee of success. Surely an empty city guarantees success? The only different translation I read was Sam Reifler's, and he says something about ascending into an empty city and finding nothing there of fulfillment. In that sense I guess there's no success.

Yes, I do need to ask... I love to see concrete reality follow what seems to be only a symbol. I also think we humans are so full of illusions, it's hard to know what's really happening, so this gives me different perspectives.

Where do yuou get 8.5>45.5?

 

[stuart]

The empty city can be entered,but maybe at the right time so you are not on your own there!.

 

[cheiron]

Hi PaKua

So many questions? Grin

I see no contradictions between anything said by all three of us? maybe the others might disagree.

Pushing up in to what empty city?? tempting to see it as what we would wish to achieve? but it is the last line in the inner world of oneself; the lower trigram? a subtle shift of where it acts. Possibly the empty city of ones own wishes?

The series I gave you is a late Han Dynasty based method (?) called Fan Yao? Stephen Karcher calls it Cross line omens? Here and now it does not matter so much about the method as you have already passed that time? was it accurate? did it reflect the process? ? If not then I missed the point.

The Yijing is so much more than the text? sticking hard by the words is not so very useful, there are other complexities?

But just to illustrate one textual point? The empty city is believed to have been an abandoned city on the route up Mount Tai? So one historical / mythical perspective of that line might be? That on the great pilgrimage of the Shang rulers to the temple on Mt Tai, to make sacrifices to their ancestors, they passed through one of their own abandoned towns? not an ending but a landmark of progress?

I have done a number of divinations on how to answer you best? These readings are times you have passed?

I believe it is your last reading which matters most.

Do you want me to cover that?

All the best.

--Kevin

 

[cheiron]

Re-edit of the last post.

Please read online

--K

 

[cheiron]

Hi Stuart...

An aside

I really like your comments... they seem to be very acute...focussed... poignant...

Any chance of you adding a few more words though?

Or maybe they serve their purpose well by making me think (grinning)

Warmly

--Kevin

 

[candid]

also like Stuart's points..

Pakua, slight misunderstanding, I didn't mention putting on breaks. Quiet the contrary, advancing is clearly indicated in 46. That's the will part. 24 is returning to center. 2 is being led.

RE: 46.1 - An empty city is without obstacle or treasure. Nothing gained, nothing lost. Why go there then? Because our will needs the exercise; its good practice for when there actually is something to be accomplished. I love Kevin?s example: ?The empty city is believed to have been an abandoned city on the route up Mount Tai.? What a cool place to hang out for awhile! Inspiring! All part of 46. Life needs motivation.

 

[anon99]

For me 46, 3 has never turned out to be a a particularly favourable line because the 'city' is empty - so one can progress into it, but theres nothing there when you get there.

I find it appears when events are cancelled, you go along, theres noone there - or you find easy acceptance into something but find its of negligable value. Like walking into a cloud, theres nothing to stop you, but then theres nothing there to stop you - because theres nothing there. Not saying theres nothing there in
this relationship, thats just my repeated experience with this line.

The last time I received this line with regard to a relationship (business) I went ahead and there was indeed no actual obstacle to it, but after a while I realised it led nowhere, wasn't bad, wasn't good, was just a bit pointless - hence 'empty city'.

BTW personally I find the Yi less help on affairs of the heart than on any other matter. This is unfortunate because its probably one of the top 10
favourite areas people ask about. Firstly answers seem far more shifting and impermanent in this field, and somewhat less reliable. I guess this is because what happens depends so much on your partner, theres a limit to what you can do to influence the situation. Also when one asks what the other is feeling or thinking I don't think answers are usually very clear, i think they always relate back to the querent.

In affairs of the heart now I would consult very little, prefer to follow the heart and take the consequences. That is of course just a personal view. I think its understandable that you are confused, maybe follow your gut instinct on this one ?

 

[candid]

oops.. 46.3 (sorry)

 

[cheiron]

Respectfully I disagree Anon99

I think the Yi is even in its comments on all matters... perhaps in affairs of the heart our desires are most active and our ears and heart are less open to the outside... or inside (Zenish)

--Kevin

 

[candid]

Anon99, really enjoyed your comments. Totally agree on matters of the heart. Yi always seems to be more in tune with matters of the mind. In fact, sometimes it really does seem quite heartless. Or maybe that's just my own reflection.

 

[candid]

hmmmm chuckles... Kevin and I disagree? gotta be first, no? LOL

 

[cheiron]

heheheh

This is War Mr C.... lol

Actually the Yi does seem to have a different voice with affairs of the heart... maybe it is just sensitive?

--K

 

[candid]

Aieee!

 

[anon99]

Have you changed your mind then Kevin ?

Just my experience. I would less trust my interpretation of the Yi - or its responses, whichever way you want to look at it, in these matters, than any other.

I never realised fully till quite recently how many miles apart people can be in their view of relationships. One can be utterly obsessed and thinking of their loved one every minute of the day, and the other can be quite oblivious and never give them a thought.

Now when you are the obsessed one, or the smitten one, it seems impossible that the the one you think of is not thinking of you. Its one of the hardest things in the world to come to terms with.
This is where I think use of the Yi can create more problems than it solves. (not that the Yi creates the problem of course)

Without the Yi you'd have to face the fact head on that the one you're into isn't into you - very painful but true. With the Yi, well if you keep asking, you keep hoping and you take longer coming to terms with the situation.

BTW none of this is aimed at you Pakua, I've veered off into generalising here.

Its not just romantic relationships where I think answers are more shifting, but all sorts, family, friends etc. Maybe there is less 'solid' and objective truth about the state of a relationship. For a start so much we don't know about the other, the constantly shifting energy between us.

Though as i said thats just my experience, maybe others don't find this at all ?

Ever been led up the garden path romantically by the Yi ? How is the dog Candid ? Now dogs I DO trust.

 

[candid]

Anon99,

Yes, I've felt led up the garden path and washed into the gutter. That's why I now view Yi's guidance in such affairs as transitory only. There's absolutely no assurance whatsoever, imo, of permanency in romantic relationships; the work is ongoing. I think love is one of those areas that Yi is removed from, other than it's keen awareness of our current emotional condition. It's answers are directed more toward our healthy frame of mind in all things. But then I believe a healthy mind governs emotions to a large degree, and can maintain equilibrium in any storm or port.

Wuff!

 

[pakua]

Hi Candid,

"Pakua, slight misunderstanding, I didn't mention putting on breaks. Quiet the contrary, advancing is clearly indicated in 46. That's the will part. 24 is returning to center. 2 is being led. "

Big misunderstanding...

Putting on the brakes comes from 64.2, which was the 3rd casting. Basically, my confusion was related to, how could I first get 46.3, and then when I act on it and see resistance (which shouldn't be there), and then get 64.2?

And also, there seems to be contradiction when you say use your will, but allow yourself to be led. If you're being led, whose will is it?

Your interpretation of the empty city sounds spot on though. I had that sort of feeling that day.

 

[candid]

Pakua, I can understand your confusion. Changes happen quickly within ourselves, and Yi's answer is always relative to your position at the given moment you consult the oracle.

Imagine riding in a car and looking out the window. The scene passes by and the view changes quickly. Sometimes a small attitude adjustment can create an entirely different perspective on things, and so your reading can change just as quickly.

To attempt a little humor here, imagine leaving your home in your car to go shopping, and driving up the hill into town. Then imagine pulling into the parking lot of the supermarket and failing to apply your breaks. You and your car could wind up sitting in the frozen foods isle! There's a time for accelerating and a time to apply your breaks, all in the same trip.

Based on what you've said, there were a few days in-between these two readings. You can go through a lot of changes in just a few days. Also, circumstances can change in this time. That's why its called The Book of Changes.

 

[pakua]

Candid,

I've been coming to that conclusion.

That begs two (at least) questions:

Since changes can happen quickly, both within and without, what's the point of asking? If I do a casting at 10am, and half an hour later, I have a thought that causes a subtle shift in attitude, that could negate the reading, no? It seems difficult to keep a steady attitude over time.

Second, does the first reading end as soon as you do a second casting? Sometimes I wonder, even after I've done several readings over a few weeks, if I can see any evidence of the first or second reading still working in the background. (Don't try this at home! It can lead to pretzel brains!)

 

[cheiron]

Hi Anon99

Well let us say I am now more considered re. readings and romantic relationships than my post to you.

I have had what appear to be vague or inconsequential readings on many matters? usually when I am asking the wrong questions or putting the focus on the wrong thing. Perhaps we are more likely to do that with romantic relationships?

I have found that where a relationship is important and will lead to considerable changes in m life I get very clear answers.

Pakua?s answers seemed very clear.

I agree with the posts you and Candid are doing by the way.

Staying brief - don't wan't to interupt the thread.

ATB

--Kevin

 

[candid]

Pakua,

In a black and white world change would be either/or. There would only need be two hexagrams: yes and no, yang and yin, Chien and Kun. There would be no change lines and no shades of color. But as we know, life is more versatile and subtle than that. Likewise, so are we.

I'm reminded of a Biblical metaphor, where Jesus tells Peter, 'thou art the rock, and upon this rock I shall build my church.' Then only minutes later when Peter utters a single change of thought, saying, 'never, my Lord,' Jesus turns to him and says, 'get thee behind me, Satan.' In a minute Peter went from being the foundation of God's church to being Satan. Only one small attitude change can change one's relative position to heaven.

I wouldn't say a first reading is negated to a second, but rather that an important shift has occurred, shifting one's relative position to the subject.

 

[pakua]

On the other hand, Anon99, often I've been confused about where a relationship is going, perhaps depressed or unhappy about why things aren't going the way I want, and Yi will clarify everything. It will tell me what the "real" situation is, perhaps there was something I did that was inappropriate for the time, perhaps the other wanted something else, perhaps my wants were not thought out, etc.

I don't see how relationship questions are any different than any other questions. Anything you want to ask about, will probably involve other people, and therefore will involve the same sets of shifting energies. And isn't the Yi most concerned with politics? By politics, I mean the behaviour between people.

 

[candid]

Pakua, maybe you're right about relationship questions being no different to Yi. Maybe its we who become less rational in matters of the heart, sometimes making Yi's answers appear less clearly.

 

[anon99]

Well I don't know ? I think Candid hit the nail on the head when he said the Yi was more concerned with our mental well being than all else.

Maybe its often the case that what we so desperately want, lovewise, is actually quite disabling for us in the sense we are are enslaved to that desire. In my own life I suppose its only the no go relationships I've asked about alot. When I've felt happy, loved and secure theres no need to ask, much. I'm not saying I'm confident that I'm right in the remarks I've made, they are only based on personal experience.

Lovely dog Candid, not a puppy though is it ? If I may digress for a moment - today there was a lurcher lying out flat on the floor in the supermarket. It was in a terrible state, very thin and covered in sores. Luckily a man came along who rescued such dogs and knew what to do.
He called the dog warden so the dog would get proper vetinary care and told me the dog would soon be rehomed as they were much in demand. I never saw anything like it before, the dog just decided to collapse in the middle of a big store and there just happened to be a man going past who had did rescue work with such dogs, he said he knew of several people who would love to have the dog. That dog had a nose for synchronicity, it was great to see a good outcome for it. That events given me a nice happy feeling all day. Hmm sorry to digress, it was something I had to share....