Coronavirus (continued)

[moss elk]

Yesterday, the Governor of my state reported (via The Chicago Tribune, a center-righr paper) that he had arranged secret shipments of medical supplies from China, in order to hide them from t.rump, who has been siezing such supplies.

 

[hilary]

Wondering, faintly, what happened to Hexagram 13 on this thread. I'll see about moving a bunch of posts to a new Open Space thread.

 

[hilary]

OK, here you are, fire away. But please bear in mind that personal attacks are not allowed here, either, though being rude about people's ideas, beliefs and sources is fine.

 

[Olga Super Star]

13 UN is the hex I had about whether having that horrible housemate living with us, worst possible choice I ever made in my life!! I shan't forget!!!

 

[moss elk]

Wondering, faintly, what happened to Hexagram 13 on this thread.

Clarity does not exist in a vacuum,
and inevitably real life has found its way in.
Any expectations to the contrary are...
sadly unrealistic.

 

[Liselle]

Would it help to have a little more definition or an example or two of what's a personal attack and what's acceptable rudeness? I've been caught by that, thinking something wasn't okay that was.

On the other hand defining might create its own can of worms.

 

[moss elk]

Would it help to have a little more definition or an example or two of what's a personal attack and what's acceptable rudeness?

I've had an idea for a few weeks to create a logic chart with buttons to compose sentences that are in accordance with the rules. I see no other way for the host to get the desired result. But then, people could just post images dripping with meaning to circumvent it.

It's either a ridiculous or brilliant idea.
Any programmers here want to help?

 

[Trojina]

Would it help to have a little more definition or an example or two of what's a personal attack and what's acceptable rudeness?

It's saying bad things about the person's character rather than the person's ideas for instance lavalamp says

Such narrow minded, cockeyed contempt and animus

Diamanda. The US has certainly taken measures, sometimes quite draconian unconstitutional ones by local officials to stop Covid-19.
And your statistics are far off. As of Tuesday 4/14/20 Belgium and Italy's death rates are each 12.8% and the UK's is 12.7%, that's confirmed cases divided by deaths. The United States has a death rate of 4.1%, and the World average is about 6%.
And your wish misfortune befalls my nation, and the attendant political glee is myopic, immoral and shameful.
If the American economy fails, the whole world's economies will fail. And if you are a student of the Yi or simply live acccording to the Golden Rule, you should know by now it is evil to wish misfortune - and disease and death - upon others.

- LL

Lavalamp has called her narrow minded, he's made that judgement about her character and that's a personal attack - worse he then goes on to say she has wished misfortune disease and death on other people. That's really out of line IMO, she said absolutely nothing of the kind but expressed sadness.



To me as ever he seems to be able to sprinkle in insults whereever he likes possibly because he also insulted Hilary in another thread and she didn't mind. A mild insult but still actually not okay at all he said

Here's a handy chart you might like to refer to before you get too full of yourself Trojina

Another personal comment -


So yes a personal attack is an attack aimed at the person themselves and their character not just their ideas.

 

[Trojina]

Trojina, you said you would prove me wrong with statistics.
You were hoisted on your own petard.
- LL

No I wasn't, I just can't afford to waste any more time on you.

 

[hilary]

Would it help to have a little more definition or an example or two of what's a personal attack and what's acceptable rudeness? I've been caught by that, thinking something wasn't okay that was.

On the other hand defining might create its own can of worms.

What Trojina says sums it up well, and LL has been warned to desist. More generally, the grey area is so enormous it's kind-of impossible to define - the distinction between 'your arguments are stupid' and 'you are stupid' isn't very meaningful. Also, there's the question of how bad: mild jibes are part of normal conversation and have to be allowed to pass or things would get ridiculous; some things are not, and can't be allowed to pass or we lose the ability to have normal conversations here.

Currently I'm just finding this depressing.

On the positive side, Captain Tom Moore has completed his 100th lap.

 

[Liselle]

*Googles*

That's pretty darn wonderful. 12 million pounds.

 

[hilary]

His initial target was £1000.

 

[Olga Super Star]

.

 

[Liselle]

@Olga Super Star Hilary moved things around - this thread is the one where discussions of 13 aren't, now. I wrote you a reply on the other thread a bit ago.

 

[Olga Super Star]

I see. Was being wild.

 

[Trojina]

Currently I'm just finding this depressing.

oh don't get depressed

Captain Tom started a craze and who knows where it will end. I told mum thinking it might inspire her when she walks up and down the road but she said if too many people did it it wouldn't catch on.

 

[Freedda]

The US has certainly taken measures, sometimes quite draconian unconstitutional ones by local officials to stop Covid-19 .... And your statistics are far off. The United States has a death rate of 4.1%, and the World average is about 6%.

I was trying to avoid the Trump, but I just couldn't help myself ....

First, I was really and truly hoping I could say 'I really don't like Donnie, but in this crisis he has actually stepped up to the plate ....' But that is - by any measure - not the case: he has consistenly made a lying baffoon of himself at every step, and his message has all along been:

'Hey, don't pay attention to what's really happening, or the reality of the virus, but just look at how great I am!'

And LL, this has been the truth from the very beginning (something that you seem to convieniently ignore): early on, he sent Pence here to Wash. state - one of the first places with an outbreak - but not before first calling our governor a 'snake' and telling Pence not to trust him. Is that really the way a leader is supposed to act in a crisis (regardess of their politics)?

He visited the CDC and gave stupid, meaningless responses, that directily contadicted the CDC scientist: they said the numbers were going to go up - and things would get worse before they got better - and Trump's response was something like, 'if you start with 15, and go down, you get to zero."

He has continuously blamed the Obama administration for somehow making the current situation worse, and in at least one case, just outright lied about the former administration's role (FACT - Obama NEVER imposed rules that made it harder to approve COVID-19 testing, never!). And just yesterday he again blamed the former administration for letting emergency supplies get low. The most obvious question here - and one FoxLies would never ever ask - is: if that's the case, what have you been doing these last three years to deal with that? (Answer: nothing because it's not true in the first place)

After Trump's fringe, alt-right, Q-anon supporters made threats against Dr. Fauci, and the secret service had to provide him with more security in response, what a responsible president should have done was blast and call out all those who had spread these threats. But Trump's only response - because he would never, ever dare question the idocy of these people - was to first say that 'everyone loves Dr. Fauci', but is now re-tweeting attacks on the very person he says he loves and trusts!

(In truth, Donnie is probably jealous that Dr. Fauci has higher approval ratings - at least if you believe the lying alt-left media!)

He has repeatedly touted the performance of an untested drug, even going so far as to stupidly say, what can it hurt? It's FDA approved! I have a friend who has to take this drug, hydroxychloroquine, for Lupis, and right after Trump's announcement she couldn't get her perscription refilled! As it turns out, it may have some postitive benefit in treating COVID-19, but it needs to be tested, and they are also finding that it can have serious side affects.

And now, in the midst of a world health crisis, he's going after WHO - blaming them for supposedly doing exactly what he's been doing for the last two-three months which is failing to act. But the real reason is, Trump is angry because they didn't alway say glowing things about him, and at the same time they have said too many good things about China - like thanking China for “their efforts and transparency.” But wait a mintue, those are Trump's words, not WHO's!

And ... after getting pissed off at govenors for saying they are the ones who can say when businesses can reopen - as if they were challenging the authority of the king - TODAY Donnie said that they should 'call their own shots' about when to reopen. A total chick-sh_t move on his part: now he can blame them if things go wrong, or can still tout his 'leadership' if things go well.

And LL, all of the above is fact-based, and really just the tip of the iceberg in terms of the lies and falsehoods our president is so fond of spreading. Perhaps the worst part of all this is that the Republican party and its electeds either (and you) can not or will not challenge these lies, probably out of fear that Trump will turn his man-child bullying on them! So much for bringing the nation together and showing effective leadership!

And LL, finally, as far as the US stats, do you think that perhaps these 'draconian, unconstitutional measures' could have anything to do with our supposed low rates of infection? That maybe 'social distancing' and 'stay in place' rules have been working - and that in order for these to work and continue to be effective, they have to have the weight of authority behind them? Or are we simply supposed to thank Donnie for those too!

And in case you don't know, the Constituion has never, ever been absolute, and has always been subject to limits - especially so during a national emergeny. But somehow the gun-touting, protesting idiots don't realize that fact (and I doubt if many of them have read the Constitution except about their right to bare arms).

D.

 

[diamanda]

The 5 countries with the most fatalities are currently USA, Italy, Spain, France, UK.

Thankfully many other countries have acted fast, with wisdom and intelligence, with care for their citizens and their economies. They put lives above short-term profit. Common sense tells us that without lives there can't be any profit of any type. I believe the lesson here is: the leadership of a country, any country, should always value life and long-term overall profit. Leadership who failed to do that must be removed permanently because they are causing death and destruction - to their own people.

These figures are all from today's worldometer.

 

[Olga Super Star]

I think the situation is a bit more complicated than that, Diamanda.

The US for instance can't be compared to France. The US is made of how many? 50 States? France is 1 State. More people, more victims in absolute numbers.

The country who has been hit the most in Europe is told to be Belgium: less victims than Italy and Spain, but few inhabitants, so in % this means they have been hit harder.

Numbers really mean little.. I know of people who probably died of covid but have not been counted as covid-related deaths. In some homes for elderly people, half of the people died but none of them was filed as covid, as they died too quickly.

Also, European countries couldn't close the borders between each other because of pre-existing legislation allowing free movement of people.
They share a Parliament but no decision was taken until the most powerful countries got hit as well. There was little Italy and Spain could do to block people from China when those people were actually coming through France, Switzerland, Austria and so on.

 

[Olga Super Star]

And.. of course Iceland has few victims: it's a far off almost desert island no one goes to!!
The number of people living in Iceland could probably all fit into a skyscraper in NY

 

[diamanda]

Yes, I know all this and I agree Olga. And yet the fact remains that countries who acted quickly and drastically have very few deaths.

Also, European countries couldn't close the borders between each other because of pre-existing legislation allowing free movement of people.
They share a Parliament but no decision was taken until the most powerful countries got hit as well. There was little Italy and Spain could do to block people from China when those people were actually coming through France, Switzerland, Austria and so on.

The EU has bad leadership and bad legislation indeed.
And yet, from my list, Greece is not an island, and it's also in the EU.

 

[Olga Super Star]

Greece didn't lock down that earlier, March 10th. But as it didn't originate there, it's a bit easier to contain a virus when you have a few cases.

It's as if saying that Montana or Texas performed much better than New York. Well it started in New York so the problems are there, the same as problems were in Milan, and not Athens (not much of an economic hub these days)

 

[Olga Super Star]

Also, I don't know in your country, but here people have been complaining since the beginning. First they complained about the lockdown, now they complain about the government not imposing the lockdown immediately. A part of the population still complains saying that confinement is against the Declaration of human rights and so on.
So it's not easy for governments to take such measures. Now it's ok, as all the world is locked down, we are used to it. But when it first started, to have someone saying you couldn't go to visit your mother in another city, that was a big thing and nothing heard of since WW2! So I can relate to people watching how the virus was spreading before actually taking measures.

 

[diamanda]

people have been complaining

A government who cannot get people to do what people need to do to survive, is a failed government.

 

[Lavalamp]

Fox, The National Enquirer, Golf Geezers Gazette, Guns &Ammo and Smaugs Weekly Aquisition and Hoarding report aren't really news.

You are lying about who I have worked for Moss Elk.
I have actually worked in the news divisions of 3 of the 4 big US TV networks for 25 years, not any magazines.

It's amazing to me that an asian man who laments about and acknowledges mistreatment of 'gutter races' has linked himself to the racist elite in this country.

False claims were made about America's Covid-19 status, which I corrected with public references while cautioning people about the temptation of hubris. We do not have the highest death rate in the world per capita, nor the largest number of cases per capita.
And here, you basically call me a racist for doing so.

For that and for lying about who I have worked for, you again owe me apologies.

- LL

 

[Trojina]

The 'temptation of hubris' ? I see hubris clearly in your president, Mr Tangerine Man. This is a man who believes he controls what Covid 19 will do. He said the country could get back to normal by Easter. He's just a child with too much power who has lost touch with reality, completely lost touch with reality. (no offence to any child readers)

 

[moss elk]

You are lying about who I have worked for Moss Elk.

Well, that's a false statement.
I never said LL worked for ___.
What I did was throw out some morsels that the common t.rump supporters eat to see if any of them stuck, in order to solve the mystery behind your acting like an agent of team t.rump. But I think you've that you've provided enough info to know that it has to do with your stock investments.

and here, you basically call me a racist...

Nope, I didn't call you a racist.
I said you have allied yourself to the racist elite in this country. (and that it was astounding to me that you've done so.)
That is not the same as saying you are a racist, only a tool of the racists.

 

[moss elk]

... I just deleted my post

Me too.
I am just feeling physically sick abour what these people are doing.
There are freaking Nazi flags next to Trump-flags at the shutdown protests.

 

[Liselle]

Well okay, we'll just delete everything. Rosada, never mind

 

[Olga Super Star]

I also deleted a post yesterday moaning about this thread, and then noticed it is in moderation, so I stopped moaning.
But I will take notifications off, it's a waste of my precious time to read about t.rump and covid competition!