Did I discover this grouping/sequence...

[stevev]

More Sequences

I think the GetoJack sequence is similar to 8 Palaces although I find it more aesthetically pleasing when animated. Either the upper or lower trigram remain static through several steps in the 8 Palaces sequence, although not as static as in the Mawangdui sequence.

The most aesthetically pleasing animated sequence is the Mystery sequence, probably followed by King Wen.

Here are the hexagram sequences I have defined in Windows I Ching Explorer, expressed by their (index in a hexagram value array) ?, albeit in my "bone-headed" way of caculating hexagram values using the lowest line as the least significant bit.

I did consider just conforming to the standard for a while, although I'm having trouble deciding again. I have asked the I Ching twice, the first time I got Clarity and Discipline, the second time I got Correctness, still none the wiser !

I've defined a few sub-sequences like Double, Same Inverse, Opposite and Inverse etc, and the Sovereign sequence.

I notice that Steve Marshall shows that the sequence starts with Return (1) whereas I define it starting with Creative (63) because I originally learnt it by this story that it tells, I don't know if I made it up or read it somewhere.

"Strength encounters weakness retreats from it to a position of stagnation, contemplates it's former glory and disintegrates into weakness. Then strength returns, approaches a position of peace, gains power and breaks-through to be strong again."


Numeric
00 01 02 03 04 05 06 07
08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15
16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31
32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39
40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47
48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55
56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63

Fuxi
00 32 16 48 08 40 24 56
04 36 20 52 12 44 28 60
02 34 18 50 10 42 26 58
06 38 22 54 14 46 30 62
01 33 17 49 09 41 25 57
05 37 21 53 13 45 29 61
03 35 19 51 11 43 27 59
07 39 23 55 15 47 31 63

Wen
01 23 06 18 14 35 45 10
15 50 39 53 61 54 31 33
07 02 28 59 38 62 47 04
44 16 46 57 30 48 27 42
22 26 03 40 51 21 17 25
34 20 63 37 55 29 49 13
19 41 58 60 52 36 56 08
11 24 05 09 32 12 43 00

Mystery
63 57 58 44 59 46 51 25
60 48 56 28 52 33 36 11
61 50 54 31 55 40 39 15
53 35 38 18 37 20 21 06
62 43 45 24 47 27 32 10
49 30 41 14 34 17 19 05
42 23 26 09 29 13 16 04
22 08 12 03 07 02 01 00

8 Palaces
32 33 23 34 61 22 12 35
09 08 10 63 62 21 11 36
39 18 16 17 60 19 13 38
58 15 57 56 59 20 14 37
05 46 52 27 24 25 47 26
06 45 51 28 49 48 50 07
04 43 53 30 31 42 40 41
03 44 54 29 02 55 01 00

Mawangdui
32 38 36 35 34 37 39 33
26 24 29 28 27 30 31 25
18 22 16 20 19 21 23 17
42 46 44 40 43 45 47 41
10 14 12 11 08 13 15 09
50 54 53 52 51 48 55 49
58 63 61 60 59 62 56 57
01 06 04 03 02 05 07 00

Yang Lian
17 20 35 03 51 50 33 02
18 22 36 05 52 53 38 04
26 24 40 09 56 57 42 08
31 28 47 15 63 62 45 14
30 27 46 13 60 61 44 12
29 25 41 11 59 58 43 10
21 23 37 07 55 54 39 06
16 19 34 01 48 49 32 00

GetoJack
07 35 21 49 14 42 28 56
39 03 53 17 46 10 60 24
23 51 05 33 30 58 12 40
55 19 37 01 62 26 44 08
15 43 29 57 06 34 20 48
47 11 61 25 38 02 52 16
31 59 13 41 22 50 04 32
63 27 45 09 54 18 36 00

Sovereign
06 07 .. 08 .. .. .. 09
.. .. .. .. .. .. .. 10
.. .. .. .. .. .. .. ..
.. .. .. .. .. .. .. 11
05 .. .. .. .. .. .. ..
.. .. .. .. .. .. .. ..
04 .. .. .. .. .. .. ..
03 .. .. .. 02 .. 01 00

 

[getojack]

GetoJack,

Here is the link to Harmen Mesker site's "Downloads" section, just to PDF-file about 8 houses: http://www.i-tjingcentrum.nl/index....103&func=fileinfo&filecatid=1&parent=category . I don't know more complete sources.

From Harmen's PDF file:

"The problem with the Eight Palaces is that the designer, Jing Fang, didn't give any explanation about his system. We don't know why each hexagram is called how it is, nor do we know why each line is named how it is."

Looking at the table of Eight Palaces, it looks as if the "OC" hexagrams are named "wandering soul" and the "IC" hexagrams are named "returning soul". Gong, first, second, third, fourth and fifth generation hexagrams in the Eight Palaces correspond to "NC", "BC", "B2", "AC", "T2" and "TC" respectively. Interesting stuff.

 

[peter]

Yes. And while there are no distinct explanation of 8 Palaces by their author, they are widely used in divination. Mostly "You hun" and "Gui hun", but in "Wen Wang lessons" (or "Eight trigrams of King Wen", or "Six lines") the main part of divination is based on these 8 Palaces.

Note also, that in each palace you can meet only 5 trigrams of 8 (if you don't take inner trigrams), and 3 will be absent. In feng-shui these palaces are sometimes marked by these absent trigrams, EG 469 (Xun-Qian-Li) or 237 (Kun-Zhen-Dui).

 

[Sparhawk]

Note also, that in each palace you can meet only 5 trigrams of 8 (if you don't take inner trigrams), and 3 will be absent. In feng-shui these palaces are sometimes marked by these absent trigrams, EG 469 (Xun-Qian-Li) or 237 (Kun-Zhen-Dui).

Hi Peter, can you elaborate on this?

Thanks,

Luis

 

[frank_r]

In the late seventies a frenchman called Jean Morelleau made from the houses a horizontal sequence and called this the families.
Beginning with the family of the heaven, wind, mountain, earth, thunder, lake, fire and the last one family of the water. The sequence that all the 8 houses are following.

This is the same sequence you mentioned, Olivia Octavia wrote also about this in one of her books in Spanish (she´s from Argentina).

I'm working with this sequence in my acpuncture treatments.
The sequence of the 8 houses is used a lot in old China with deseases.
In the book of Dr Wang Yang & Jon Sandifer(the Autentic I Ching) there are some exemples where they used it with ilnesses.

 

[Sparhawk]

Hi Peter, can you elaborate on this?

I got it! I looked at the chart from Harmen's article and saw what you meant about meeting only five trigrams. Very interesting and something I didn't noticed before.

L

 

[peter]

sparhawk,

elaborate on what? I believe it is evident. 469 marks the Palace of Dui (Lake), 489 - the Palace of Kun (Earth), 237 - the Palace of Li (Fire) etc. Numbers are taken from King Wen's circle of trigrams laid on Luo Shu square: 1 = Kan, 2 = Kun, 3 = Zhen and so on, till 9 = Li.

 

[Sparhawk]

sparhawk,

elaborate on what? I believe it is evident. 469 marks the Palace of Dui (Lake), 489 - the Palace of Kun (Earth), 237 - the Palace of Li (Fire) etc. Numbers are taken from King Wen's circle of trigrams laid on Luo Shu square: 1 = Kan, 2 = Kun, 3 = Zhen and so on, till 9 = Li.

Yes, Peter, thank you. I realized what you were saying after I looked at Harmen's chart in his article. I was confused about "meeting only five trigrams...". I understand it now.

L

 

[lightofreason]

Fuxi
00 32 16 48 08 40 24 56
04 36 20 52 12 44 28 60
02 34 18 50 10 42 26 58
06 38 22 54 14 46 30 62
01 33 17 49 09 41 25 57
05 37 21 53 13 45 29 61
03 35 19 51 11 43 27 59
07 39 23 55 15 47 31 63

as covered in the matrix pages, the above is a 'LOGIC OF RELATIONSHIPS' matrix where expressed using traditional numbers ordered top to bottom from your 63 to 00 (bottom to top) is:

01 43 14 34 09 05 26 11
10 58 38 54 61 60 41 19
13 49 30 55 37 63 22 36
25 17 21 51 42 03 27 24
44 28 50 32 57 48 18 46
06 47 64 40 59 29 04 07
33 31 56 62 53 39 52 15
12 45 35 16 20 08 23 02

ITs particular form is on relationships of yang/yin represented in the 02/01 dichotomy.

The 'horizonal' sequences in the matrix pages covers these relationships matrices. Thus the one of 23/43 covers "X is to Y as 23 is to 43" OR "describe all relationships of 23 to 43 using the IC - and so each pair does so.

In the above 01/02 we have 01 is to 43 as 01 is to 02, 20 is to 08 as 01 is to 02 (or you can read these in reverse as in 01 is to 02 as 20 is to 08 or 12 is to 45 or 35 is to 16 etc etc etc)

The horizontal forms are derived from the vertical by rotation of hexagrams. The 'rule' for this comes out of (a) taking the recursive sequence (fu Hsi) as the natural horizontal and rotating each hexagram - the result is the order 'up'/'down' the 01/02 hexagrams

(b) from (a), we take the up/down, vertical order of any hexagram and rotate IT to give us its 'logic of relationships' format.

Note that the vertical sequence of a hexagram lists the spectrum of a hexagram as covered in the XOR material.

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/pairmatrix.html

In the DERIVED horizontal sequences the GENERAL 01/02 relationship holds, it is the LOCAL pairings that bring out the logic.

Chris.

 

[stevev]

I did have a look Chris ...

but unfortunately I'm none the wiser. For a start I think using King Wen sequence numbers as the hexagram identities is a big problem, I'd prefer to use their numeric value instead. Which leads to the second problem: Is the top or the bottom line the LSB ?

I notice Steve Marshall says:

"However, you could equally well regard the binary number 000001 as represented by hexagram 24 reading from the bottom upwards: <snip> This is what the animator has done. You could say this is a more sensible way of rendering hexagrams as binary numbers than what has become the convention, given that binary numbers, like decimal numbers, count up from right to left and hexagrams are formed from bottom to top."

Also the Mystery & Sovereign sequences run from the bottom to the top.

In Return, the yang line returns to the bottom.

In hexagram 47 Bradford says "Beings add themselves upward".

None of which is conclusive proof of anything, but it all suggests the same starting point and direction.

Hence my dilemma !

 

[lightofreason]

but unfortunately I'm none the wiser. For a start I think using King Wen sequence numbers as the hexagram identities is a big problem, I'd prefer to use their numeric value instead. Which leads to the second problem: Is the top or the bottom line the LSB ?

Dont consider using any numbers other than the traditional for expressions - they are unfortunately set in stone. But that does not stop their manipulation using logic operators on their indexes - IOW store the numbers in a binary ordered matrix from 0 to 63 with 0 = hex 02 and 63 = hex 01.

Rotations are easy by reading the bit values in reverse order.

If you want to use the lines as bits values then you have a choice of:

(a) reading LSB as the TOP an so ordering 02 to 01 is 00, 01, 02, 03, 04 etc (02, 23, 08, 20) to 62, 63 (43, 01)

OR

(b) interpret yang lines as 0s, yin lines as 1s to maintain bottom to top mappings!

The problem with (a) is it is context sensitive - and so the numbers change for 12 bit patterns or 3 bit patterns.

The problem with (b) is it goes against the grain.

 

[frank_r]

In the late seventies a frenchman called Jean Morelleau made from the houses a horizontal sequence and called this the families.
Beginning with the family of the heaven, wind, mountain, earth, thunder, lake, fire and the last one family of the water. The sequence that all the 8 houses are following.

I just saw I made a mistake.
Jean Morelleau called it the family of the earth(first hexagram of the palace), thunder((first generation), lake( second generation), Heaven(third generation), wind(fourth generation), mountain(fifth generation), fire(wandering soul) and water(returning soul).

 

[Sparhawk]

In the late seventies a frenchman called Jean Morelleau made from the houses a horizontal sequence and called this the families.
Beginning with the family of the heaven, wind, mountain, earth, thunder, lake, fire and the last one family of the water. The sequence that all the 8 houses are following.

This is the same sequence you mentioned, Olivia Octavia wrote also about this in one of her books in Spanish (she´s from Argentina).

I'm working with this sequence in my acpuncture treatments.
The sequence of the 8 houses is used a lot in old China with deseases.
In the book of Dr Wang Yang & Jon Sandifer(the Autentic I Ching) there are some exemples where they used it with ilnesses.

Hi Frank,

Do you have any further information about Jean Morelleau? I couldn't find anything using that name... It sounds like his material is very interesting. I'm working on something about the 8 Palaces and could use any extant novel information out there...

Thanks,

Luis

 

[frank_r]

Hi Frank,

Do you have any further information about Jean Morelleau?
Luis

Hello Luis, I got the name of Olivia Cattedra and I had a look again and it was not Morelleau but Marolleau: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_g...s=aps&field-keywords=marolleau&Go.x=6&Go.y=11

I don't know in which of his books he wrote this. I don't read french.

But Luis do you know something more about the houses I'm also interested because I'm also studying it already some years(I'm using it as I treat my patients) and everything new about this system I 'm happy with.

Frank

 

[Sparhawk]

I don't know in which of his books he wrote this. I don't read french.

But Luis do you know something more about the houses I'm also interested because I'm also studying it already some years(I'm using it as I treat my patients) and everything new about this system I 'm happy with.

Hi Frank,

Thanks for the information. Actually, I seriously doubt I know any more than you do about the "ba gong". I'm trying to piece together all the information I can find regarding it for an essay in Spanish I'm planning to write.

L

 

[stevev]

This is exactly what I'm considering ...

Dont consider using any numbers other than the traditional for expressions - they are unfortunately set in stone.

because it simply makes no sense to relate back the the King Wen sequence numbers when your running through another sequence where their numerical value is the easiest way of relating two sequences.

Yes I know the're set in stone and I'm swimming against the tide, but not drowning yet, only waving !

Regards

Steve

 

[lightofreason]

because it simply makes no sense to relate back the the King Wen sequence numbers when your running through another sequence where their numerical value is the easiest way of relating two sequences.

Depends on what you are doing. The horizontal/vertical sequences covering XOR and the Logic of Relationships (LOR) all come from self-referencing. The initial is from self-referencing yin/yang to give the binary sequence and then rotation of that to give the vertical sequence (and so a hexagram's spectrum ordered in binary sequence format - it reflects applying recursion to the hexagram bottom-up, aka 'bit flipping' in binary number order (flip lines 1, 2, 1+2, 3, 1+3, 2+3,1+2+3 etc etc etc - so either rotation of the whole horizontal sequence or 'bit flipping' through the particular hexagram will give you the SAME pattern))

The format of self-referencing brings out methods of interpretation for any sequence mapped to that format and so we get into reflection vs repetition etc etc. applicable to any sequence.

This gets into XOR issues such that any sequence poured into a binary sequence template is then open to the above analytical methods that come with the binary sequence template alone.

Mapping hexagram number to hexagram position (1:1) sets down basic XOR, LoR patterns that at then applicable figuratively to other sequences.

Thus I can pour the traditional sequence into the template and use numeric/logic methods on the indexes to manipulate groups of hexagrams etc (form octets, quartets, pairs all for analysis - or XOR patterns WITHIN the context of the meaning of the sequence as a whole - e.g. the natural, binary sequence is an LofR of the qualities of pure yin vs pure yang (and so the emphasis on opposites structurally with a focus on the dichotomy of meanings represented by 01 and 02) - I can rotate this sequence and get the XOR spectrum.

THEN I can focus on the LofR of, for example, 01/64 but the ordering is now different but the underlying 'rules' still apply but in a derived context.

Chris.

 

[stevev]

Yes well ....

maybe you can XOR, LOR and self-reference in your head but it confuses the hell out of me. I just want something simple I can look at, quickly. It's all just a stupid bloody game anyway. Personally I'd like to just give it up, like smoking, unfortunately, I confess, I AM AN ADDICT !