Divorce or no divorce? (Brexit)

[diamanda]

I'm not concerned at all with should there / shouldn't there be Brexit, just interested in the huge current suspense over this issue and what will happen on 31 October. So I posed two yes/no questions, but of course it's interesting to also see why yes or why no. Here goes, I'd love to hear other opinions of why yes or why not. Please use kindness, discretion, consideration in your answer, I am NOT starting this thread to cause political arguments. I'm just interested in how this divorce case will pan out

Will there be a no-deal Brexit on 31 October? 30.1 > 56
NO. It's still unclear, too much confusion. Someone is really intent on this, but 56, no, this scenario won't stick.

Will there be any type of Brexit/split on 31 October? 12.2.3.5 > 50
NO. There are power games (12.2), there's something shameful we don't know (12.3), and someone is really suffering (12.5). 50 shows something brewing, manipulation, change. Hidden lines (for whoever likes them, like myself) are 6.3 and 44.5, so ancient wisdom - maybe an old law will drop from heaven? Someone will unearth some secret clause? The queen will step in? In any case I view resulting 50 as there will be a totally new scenario on 31 October.

 

[foxx777]

Your castings do seem to reflect the political impasse accurately. Looking forward to seeing how it all pans out.

 

[Lavalamp]

Will there be a no-deal Brexit on 31 October?
>56 This hex as context - Transition or The Wanderer - describes the process of heading out on your own. In other words, this context hex describes the Brexit action itself.
30.1 This line describes taking steps. Cautious, somewhat uncertain first steps.
Legge: The first line, dynamic, shows one ready to move with confused steps. But he treads at the same time reverently, and there will be no mistake.
So - I would say something in the direction of the Brexit will happen at the deadline. Steps are taken.

Will there be any type of Brexit/split on 31 October?
Well 12 is also the hex of divorcement - the Brexit and the actual question you asked!
12.2 Impasse among leaders but "He attains his purpose." This is good for the people.
12.3 Unqualified people of position won't be successful in their evil purposes, and will be humiliated. .
12.5 Wilhelm/Baynes: Standstill is giving way. Good fortune for the great man.
>50 Cauldron. Something is cooking. Transformation. Supreme success.

Sounds to me like Boris Johnson succeeds and the Brexit happens. We shall of course see!

- LL

 

[rosada]

30.1 Seems to describe two (or more) people who are only at the start of moving forward together, haven't yet been able to agree on which foot should go first so at this point there is not a co-ordinated action and so (agreeing with lava lamp here) the resulting 56. seems to describe moving on, alone. As an answer perhaps it is saying that if the various parties can't get it together there will indeed be a no-deal Brexit.

12.2.3.5 - 50 Describes how Standstill is overcome, and it is by the determined efforts of "the great man". 12.3 is ominous but then we have the good fortune of 12.5 so it seems to be describing that hell or high water there will be some type of Brexit split on Oct.31.

 

[Fanofenka]

Rosada, why do the readings have more than one acceptable interpretation?

 

[Freedda]

Rosada, why do the readings have more than one acceptable interpretation?

Fanofenka, what do you mean here? I see that Rosada gave one interpretation for each of the questions asked of the Yi. So I don't know what you are talking about when you ask about either more than one, or, 'acceptable' interpretations? Can you explain?

Best, D.

 

[Fanofenka]

Fredda, I mean Dismanda said no but you give us the situations that would lead to it.

 

[Freedda]

... Dismanda said no but you give us the situations that would lead to it.

Now I am more confused, since I never said anything in this thread, except to ask you a question. So, I am still not sure what you meant?

 

[my_key]

Fanofenka said:
Rosada, why do the readings have more than one acceptable interpretation?

Hi fanofenka
Am I right in thinking that you are confused because first diamanda interpreted the reading to be no Brexit and then lavalamp interpreted the reading to be that Brexit would happen?

If this is what you meant then the reason for 'more than one acceptable interpretation' is that there was more than one person interpreting. Each reading, whether it is one of yours or anyone elses, consists of obtaining a reference to a set of words ( hexagram meanings, line meanings etc) and a translation of these words into a personal meaning. Two different people = two different personal meanings. On occassions they may be similar and on others they may be different, or as in this case opposite. Each is relevant and acceptable to each person. Other people may find the reading interpretation offered is one that resonates with them or not. This does not make the reading right or wrong just that there is or isn't a resonance.

To my way of thinking the I Ching is not a 'future predicting' or 'fortune telling' machine but more a personal reflector of me and my attitudes towards a particular situation. Therefore I do not expect that what I 'see' in a divination to be the same as what someone else has 'seen'. As well as not being the same, what I see may not even be relevant for the person who made the divination, i.e no resonance. ( That's why I put disclaimers at the bottom of many of my posts in Shared Readings)

Diamanda and lavalamp have 'seen' different things in the same set of words, because that is how they have seen it. The Yi has spoken to them in different ways, if you like. If you personally have a go at interpreting the reading then I expect you will come up with an interpretation with your own twist on it.

There is no one right (one-size-fits-all) answer.

Good Luck

 

[Freedda]

Hi fanofenka .... Am I right in thinking that you are confused because first diamanda interpreted the reading ... and then lavalamp interpreted the reading [another way]?

.... the reason for 'more than one acceptable interpretation' is that there was more than one person interpreting .... and a translation of these words into a personal meaning. Two different people = two different personal meanings .... they may be similar ... they may be different, or as in this case opposite. Each is relevant and acceptable to each person.

There is no one right (one-size-fits-all) answer.

MyKey; thanks and kuddos to you for both understanding the question and also for this great answer. I had a similar sense, but didn't know how to put it into words. And this sense of different meanings for differnt people is alway a good thing to be reminded of, so again, thank you.

D.

 

[Trojina]

A caution is, connected to the things Mykey spoke of, never run straight to other people with your reading, it's meant for you. Always leave some space between casting and asking other's opinions because the real answer is only to be truly found by you. Whilst others can help really the work is all yours to do.

 

[Trojina]

I was serious but you are laughing David ?

 

[Freedda]

I was serious but you are laughing David ?

No, I was only thanking you (and thereby agreeing with you) and that's the icon I clicked on ... without really looking closely at it. I didn't know that the choice of 'thanks' icons mattered that much, and that the 'thanks' implied any other meanings, but I might be mistaken about that. Whatever the case, I have changed it. Best, D.

 

[Trojina]

Oh I see, yes the thanks icons display different emotions including sadness

 

[Freedda]

Only kidding ....

 

[Lavalamp]

Well on hard subjects of divination, the reader is eventually right or wrong. Predicted events will either come to pass or they will not. That why it's called "Divination."
But for those that do not believe the Yi can predict the future - it won't. It's hard enough to get it to predict the future when you think it can!
Until 2016, the Yi would not give me any predictive answers, and I thought it probably a tool for self reflection and not much else. And then something changed, and it started divining future events.
Anyway interpretations on predictions are only a question of opinion until the moment of truth comes to pass.
Then you read it right - or you read it wrong - or it didn't really give you your prediction in the first place.

- LL

 

[my_key]

Well on hard subjects of divination, the reader is eventually right or wrong. Predicted events will either come to pass or they will not. That why it's called "Divination."
But for those that do not believe the Yi can predict the future - it won't. It's hard enough to get it to predict the future when you think it can!
Until 2016, the Yi would not give me any predictive answers, and I thought it probably a tool for self reflection and not much else. And then something changed, and it started divining future events.
Anyway interpretations on predictions are only a question of opinion until the moment of truth comes to pass.
Then you read it right - or you read it wrong - or it didn't really give you your prediction in the first place.

- LL

Hi lavalamp
I can see from your comments that for you starting to get answers that you saw as diving future events was an important change in your relationship with Yi.

Divination is one of those words that mean different things to different people. It has certainly been in practice in many cultures for many years where signs have been interpreted to by the curious to gain insight into events or situations, whether that be in the present or the future. Divinations's uses range from dowsing for water to shamanic healing and much more besides.

I always find it interesting to check out the roots of such evocative words as the base meaning can get lost or diverted over the years. Checking out the etymology it seems that the root of divination is associated with 'to shine' and later "to be inspired by a god". The "power of foreseeing, prediction" seems to have appeared in old French around 13th century, so there is 700 years worth of precedent here.

While geeking my way around etymology sites I stumbled upon this quote which I think draws a good distinction between the different aspects of divinationfor which we seem to have opposing preferences. From what I can see this supports your comment about 'interpretations on predictions are only a question of opinion'.

"Divination hath been anciently and fitly divided into artificial and natural; whereof artificial is when the mind maketh a prediction by argument, concluding upon signs and tokens: natural is when the mind hath a presention by an internal power, without the inducement of a sign. [Francis Bacon, "The Advancement of Learning," 1605]

So, according to Bacon in those ancient times, there are two aspects (types?) of divination. One as a prediction coming from the mind interpreting 'signs and tokens' or the other a presentation from 'an internal power' (being inspired by god) without any signs or tokens in the process. Divination can be done with or without the I Ching! I guess the natural method just takes one hell of a lot more connection to that internal power so that we don't need the stepping stone of a 'sign or token'.

I think your last sentence sums it all up nicely
"Then you read it right - or you read it wrong - or it didn't really give you your prediction in the first place."

Good Luck

PS - For what it's worth, when I set my mind to the 'signs and tokens' of the original reading I too interpreted that there would be some kind of split. Only time will tell.

 

[Lavalamp]

The iChing is I think a pretty practical language. If you learn what it is.
In this reading - Divorce or no divorce Brexit - both context hexagrams describe the question: both 56 the Traveller going your own path and 12 is actually the hex of divorcement.
It is not like reading the entrails of a goat or tea leaves, and the Brexit either will or won't happen after all - one way or another.

- LL

 

[diamanda]

Update, in case we see events in the readings in hindsight:

• This past week, the UK prime minister, Boris Johnson, came up with a new Brexit deal proposal, and the EU agreed it's a good deal.
• Today the UK parliament were originally meant to vote on BJ's deal, but they voted for the Letwin amendment instead, meaning the parliament didn't vote today on BJ's deal. They might vote on it next week and BJ might be forced by law (the Benn act) to ask for an extension beyond 31 October.

To be continued.

 

[diamanda]

Line 12.3 - enveloped shame.

05/09/2019 - BJ said he would “rather be dead in a ditch” than agree to extend Brexit.
09/09/2019 - the Benn Act legally requires BJ to ask for an extension if a deal is not reached by 19 October.
19/10/2019 at 3:02 pm - BJ says in parliament that "he's not legally required to ask for an extension" (although everyone knows he is legally required to do that, as per Benn Act).
19/10/2019 at night - BJ sends a letter to the EU to ask for an extension. The envelope of shame, I believe.

 

[Lavalamp]

Why just focus on the one line 12.3?
12.2 Impasse among leaders but "He attains his purpose." This is good for the people.
12.3 Unqualified people of position won't be successful in their evil purposes, and will be humiliated. .
12.5 Wilhelm/Baynes: Standstill is giving way. Good fortune for the great man.
>50 Cauldron. Something is cooking. Transformation. Supreme success.

- LL

 

[diamanda]

Hi lavalamp, I focused on 12.3 because I had thoughts about what this line meant in this case, also because I believe this is where we are in the timeline of this cast. The case is still not concluded, so let's see what happens.

 

[diamanda]

Update - we are definitely still in 12 territory... perhaps in line 12.5. Tonight the UK parliament decided that they do want to discuss and vote on BJs Brexit bill, but, not as urgently as BJ wants. The parliament Speaker, John Bercow, said that the bill is now "in limbo". Asked for clarification, he said:

"The bill is not dead but it is inert," replies Speaker John Bercow. "It is not on a journey, it is not progressing, it might be said to be static," he says. "It is not a corpse."

His words remind me a bit of Legge's rhyming comment on line 12.5:
And let him say, "I die! I die I"
So to a bushy clump his fortune he shall tie.

 

[Trojina]

Well Brexit is definitely not going to happen by Halloween. Another extension till January and possible general election.

 

[diamanda]

Three more days to go, with more suspense and strange twists no doubt But yes, right now they said "flextension" till end of January.

 

[diamanda]

there will be a totally new scenario on 31 October

It has been decided today that there will be a premature general election in the UK, on 12 December 2019. There won't be a no-deal brexit on 31 October, and there also won't be any type of brexit on 31 October.

I would like to note here that there's a full moon in Gemini on 12 December 2019. Both Boris Johnson (current prime minister) and Jeremy Corbyn (the leader of the main opposition party) are Geminis.