Dream help

[martin]

Hi Millie,

Re your question, I think that hexagram 19 can indeed indicate that there are (too) many options and that it's advisable to choose in the long run or at least to limit the possibilities somehow.
Nigel Richmond, in his alternative inner I Ching, calls this hexagram "Overgrowth".
Part of his text:

----------------------------
Nature
Intimations of spring
are everywhere.
Growth so rich
it will not flower.

Human
Flow into activity is unimpeded,
so free it knows no end.
So young it knows no maturing.

Form
Without regulation
form grows rampant.
-------------------------

I believe that hexagram 19 can also have another meaning that is perhaps more relevant here. I associate the hexagram with Venus influenced by Neptune or Venus in the twelfth house in astrology and that can indicate such things as "lost love", "lost lover" or maybe "spiritual love".
I seems that that fits the situation with your friend quite well.
I hope that you two will be able to solve your problems. All the best!

 

[martin]

Btw, the text of Richmond also seems to say (and that is in line with "too many possibilities" but the emphasis is a bit different) that things can not stay undefined for long.
Perhaps that is part of the problem that you and your friend now have. The relationship needs to mature, to go somewhere, so to speak. But where should it go?
Do you recognize that?

 

[peace]

Hi Millie:

To build on what Bruce has said - although this isn't I Ching:

You can write a dialogue between you and this part of you (you can call him your friend's name) and ask him why he is in your life and what he is able to teach you. Then you might want to ask him lots of other questions including where he is in your life in reality, etc.

Rosalie

 

[bruce]

Martin, that's an interesting line: "Growth so rich it will not flower."

Might this better be rendered: Potential harvest so rich the work may not get done in time? (especially without doing the "ground work")

I'm having a difficult time understanding how rich growth prevents flowering.

 

[millie]

martin, where does this astrology and yi come from? i've never heard of that. spiritual love is certainly part of what we're about. and yes, what we are is facing the need to mature into something, but what? we are in need of form. good points.

rosalie, i already know the answers to why he's in my life and what he has to teach me. the unanswered question i've been exploring here is the meaning of the dream and best next steps.

 

[bruce]

hmm.. too much of a good thing makes life lazy; taking ease among the leaves, forgetting to flower and seed. A little hardship is a good thing.

A coyote whispered that in my ear.

 

[millie]

pregnant pause

the beginning was very rich with tremendous potential. now stagnant, or at least outwardly "on hold"

34 to 19???

i see the two lines (34.3 and 34.4) cancelling each other out.

 

[millie]

bruce, he may be my animus personafied. certainly he is a compliment to me. but the qualities i see in him aren't so much mascaline qualities (i'd even call them more traditionally feminine!) so not sure what that makes him from a jungian perspective. he has showed me a potential of myself that had as yet not been fully developed within me.

 

[martin]

Similarities between hexagrams and astrological patterns is one of my "hobbies"

, Millie.
I have posted about it before on this forum. You can find posts about it with the forum search (planets and trigrams, for example), if you are interested ...

Bruce, maybe it's just poetical language of Richmond, but I can imagine that a plant is in a hurry and has no time for flowering?!

Well, I'm not sure ..

 

[bruce]

Millie, I'm not a Jungian psychologist so I can't speak conclusively on these things. I'm not so sure the similarities between the two images are essential to their respective values. For example, someone may see a gorilla on TV, and that night have a dream about Big Foot. His unconscious picked up an image that evoked certain mental and emotional stimulation, and played it back in the dream to express something potentially meaningful to him, on a deeper level than the movie had intended. There is a connection, but it doesn't have to be a direct one.

Martin, I've read Bradford's 19 and have discussed this a little with LiSe. Together, Richmond's words makes a great deal more sense to me now.

Sometimes a situation presents so much potential that the lazy, hazy days of summer can pass us by, but fail to yield a lucrative crop, or seeds for the coming time (ninth month there will be misfortune). LiSe pointed out that hardship can be the mother of hard work, which becomes the mother of the harvest.

This has filled in a couple of missing answers from my past experiences with 19. Richly rewarding, I must say.

 

[bruce]

This to me still points to the necessesity to lose something or to cut something back. A rose bush that's fed and watered well, but not pruned as well, generally yields few flowers, but with long stems and leaves.

Does anyone know a connection between 23 and 19?

 

[bruce]

pondering lines 1,2 and 6, in both 23 and 19.

The cooperative effort between man and nature.
The uneaten fruit of 23.6.

Maybe it's better to bring hopes and expectations in line with what you're willing and able to tend to, realistically. (Does this speak to you, Millie?)

 

[millie]

bruce, i was with you until the last post. what necessity do you see to lose something or cut something back? and where do you see this necessity? 19?

i'm getting this sense of an existential panic attack with 19. let me explain. if 19 is about nearing close to something, so close, and therefore seeing it so clearnly, that you are truly intimate and in tune with it's full, grand, capacity and potential ... i can then see a panic in this that causes one to pause and be still for fear of the potential, and then creating a coresponding limit or need to make things smaller and more managable before proceeding. perhaps that's where your thought about a similarity with 19 and 23 comes from? but i would now say, that the point of 19 is to NOT take action that makes the possibilities less than, but to move boldly forward into the beauty with acceptance and love. perhaps this is a meaning of 19?

 

[martin]

23 or maybe 41, mountain instead of earth on top.
I think the mountain trigam (corresponding to saturn in astrology, I would say) is related to what Freud called the "reality principle", as opposed to the "pleasure principle".
This "reality principle" seems to be operating in all the hexagrams with mountain on top.
It poses a limitation (not everything is possible) and it sometimes feels as hardship.

 

[millie]

bruce, we crossed posts. above i was commenting on your 8:10 pm posting. now i'm commenting on the 8:23 -

because 23 scares me generaly, and because i didn't throw it in divination, it's difficult for me to ponder it's possible influence or insight in this sitatuion. do i think i need to be more realiztic in my hopes and expectations with this man? maybe.

 

[millie]

martin, but everything is possible! its us who create limits. the universe doesn't have limits for us. like my ghandi character said, all it takes is a decision. we can decide to be together. we might not make that decision for various reasons, but it is within our power to choose it. besides, 41 contains an offer within it, it's not only about limitation, right?

 

[martin]

"to move boldly forward into the beauty with acceptance and love."
Oh yes, Millie! However, in hexagram 19 there is this "eight month" caution. I don't think this implies a need to limit your openness or your feelings. But there is some nitty gritty that has to be dealt with, ultimately, to make it real. A kind of "contract" is perhaps needed in this case, to bring this relationship down to earth.

 

[martin]

"the universe doesn't have limits for us."
True, but I believe WE have chosen certain limits, or "rules of the game", when we chose to be born in this physical reality.
Why we did that? I don't know, an experiment?

 

[millie]

i think we do it as a means to manage existential panic. one "rule of the game" is marriage. what is a vow? what is committment? is it natural, or best, to stay with one person forever? sometimes yes, and sometimes no, i think. love is all there really is, and as long as its true (not lust) then why not follow it?

that eighth month causion is a whole other point we have not really explored here, and which i still dont' understand about 19.

 

[martin]

My mundane interpretation of 41 is: as long as you pay your taxes you will be OK.

 

[jesed]

Hi
Just in case the comment could be useful

In calendaric time.. after 8 months from 19 arrive 20.

Metaphoric: Spring don't last forever... good fortune don't last forever... oportunities don't last forever.. So, you must take them when they are at hand.. or you'll lose them.

Even more: "good luck" came from Heaven, but you need to work to handle it well.

If you do that, you can avoid that 19 turns to 20 but achieve 46... it means, you can avoid diminishing good luck but keep it ascending.

Best wishes

 

[martin]

Love is all there really is .. does this not include love of the earth?
Look at a flower, it is defined, very precise. Without limits it would be just a fuzzy blur.
I love limits!

 

[millie]

nicely put.

 

[bruce]

Millie, I think your word "managing" is better than mine, "losing".

At this point I'm thinking of an occasion some four years ago when I received 19 at a crucial point in a relationship. Everything seemed so open, so possible, and yet it turned out so badly for both of us. I've never felt entirely certain about 19 since then. With such a positive omen, how could it turn out so badly? Answer: neither of us was prepared to manage the size of the farm we had taken on, so to speak. Our eyes were on the goal without fully considering the amount of labor it would take to pull it together in the relatively short time we had. Hence, there came a huge pressure on the relationship and there was misfortune at the turn of the season, and it became bitter cold.

My thanks to Brad for his provocative Yi work. Between he and LiSe, they've clarified something which has bugged me for years.

Millie, I hope this has shed some light on your own situation. It?s been fun traveling through it with you. You seem like a very sharp cookie to me

. May the Great Overseer light your way.

 

[micheline]

I also received 19 once and thought it to be a fruitful omen, only to have it turn cold...the issue was something that never flowered at all.
This was 19.0
I am thinking of the persephene maiden, full of promise and beauteous, but she is the ETERNAL maiden...conceivably the maiden who is not willing to convert into full womanhood, who does not want to get her hands dirty. In mythology, she may be eternal maiden, but in earth life, this archetype finds herself still day-dreaming until one day she sees her reflection and she has become a crone....only without the strength and wherewithal to act meaningfully. Great potential lost to being dreamy and inactive

imo, this reading is saying the time of butting the fence has passed and a window of opportunity has opened. Go through it, with ease and graceful power...spring is beginning. and there is work to be done in the garden. cultivate your possibilities. it is a time for action and overseeing. use a rototiller. pull out those deep weeds. Be happy and energetic.
12.6 >45 confirms this.

 

[millie]

bruce, thanks for the kind words. i'm sorry to learn you had a difficult time with 19 and a relationship. sounds like there was an opportunity for both of you to 'see more clearly' the totality of your situation and the needs of the times. but i know that can certainly be a difficult thing to do. boy, do i know.

what would you say has been brad's contribution to your understanding of 19? is it very diferent from what lise writes?

have i been helped by this dialogue? well i certainly feel i've gained insight, and see the value of this, but i'm not yet sure I know what to do next. i probably will contact him this week and just take it from there improv style, and see where is goes. there can be nothing lost in trying. if 19 is also about leadership, then perhaps i need to step forward as leader. he then has free will to respond or not. if we were to go forward, it would not be an easy road. we both know this.

 

[millie]

micheline, thank you for the story. i would not want to become a persephene maiden, hence i'm deciding here and now to take action and see what happens. what action to take? i guess i need to acknoeldge the power and energy between us, and proceed respectfully, speaking my truth.

 

[bruce]

Micheline, fascinating view of eternal vs earth maiden.

Millie, for my case, you nailed it in a nutshell in your first paragraph. There were also the elements of the earlier part of this thread: the seeing eye was oh-so-ever present throughout the entire time. Nothing happening was without a universal presence. In fact that was a large part of the experience. And two profound dreams, which influence me strongly to this day. Very universal experience.

This should direct you to Bradford?s Translation and Commentary pdf link: Bradford I think you?ll see for yourself the correlations.

 

[micheline]

Millie, you can also acknowldge the power and energy available to you, yourself.. and merely use it. what "needs to be done" is usually right there in front of our nose, almost something we would tend to overlook, rather than overSEE. be joyful, grateful...it opens the way! Your readings are encouraging.

My young niece has been with a young man now for two 1/2 years. She is so sweet and lovely, smart and compassionate. She had not been "pushy," and hadnt wanted to be. But today she finally had the nerve to confront this man about their future. He admitted he did not see her as a "longterm" partner. It is sad time for her today, but so much better that she pushed forward to find the truth, instead of wasting more time.
I am not comparing her to you in specifics MIllie, just pointing out that at certain junctures, you have the opportunity to DO something with your flow of energy, rather than waiting to "see what happens".

and the other person's response is not as important as taking the action, overSEEing your own life, flowing your energies to what you desire.