Early Chou Bronzes and Divinatory Inscriptions

[midaughter]

you wrote: I think that the Duke of Zhou invented the Zhouyi when he retired and king Cheng was old enough to rule. He used his father king Wen's ideas of a non-numerological stalk divination manual based on images in pairs with corresponding texts. An archaeological found later than the Chang Sheng-lang article shows hexagrams 61-62-63-64 in the king Wen order on a pottery from western Zhou. I think that this found indicate, that the Zhouyi was written in western Zhou time, and why not by the Duke of Zhou? He knew the ancient line texts and could choose those of them that fitted his father Wen's names of the hexagrams and rewrite some of them into the Zhou Mandate of Heaven terminology.

Makes sense to me but I never go with the 'all or nothing' concept. It may be partially true, more true than not, etc. But the wording of Hexagram 63 that discusses getting out of danger by following the Middle Way (Wang Bi says the doctrine of the Mean) to my knowledge arrives as a Buddhist concept around 100 Bc or perhaps AD. The fact that 2 diviners offer differing ideas about either 'plugging up the boat' or the finest clothes turn to rags' indicates there is some confusion about the meaning of the inscriptions. see WB
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The finest clothes turn to rags.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Be careful all day long. There is cause for doubt.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Cheng Tzu gives an alternate explanation: It is the image of a boat but there are holes for plugging them up.[/FONT]

 

[lienshan]

"When the hearts of men are won​

by friendliness, they are led to take​

all hardships upon themselves ​

willingly, and if need be will not shun​

death itself so great is the power​

of joy over men." ​

Book I: The Text (WB)
​

Chang Ping-Chuan, another scholar in this area,[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] says Consort Hao's army of 3,000 gathered, and 10,000 more men came, a great expedition. This refers to the campaign launched against the state of Qiang. The Fu Hao, therefore, rode at the head of an army of 13,000.[/FONT]

From a another forum: "I was watching Discovery Channel, showing a program on Shang Dynasty. It was mentioned in the show that Fu Hao had actually given birth before. The show also mentioned that the Shang was so immersed in war, even wives of the kings are allowed to lead troops. Fu Hao once led 13000 men against the Qiang tribe."

The Qiang tribes lived to the west of the Zhou tribes, so it looks like an army of 3000 Shang soldiers and 10.000 Zhou soldiers. The Qiang tribes are descibed and named Naxi by modern antropologists:

"The Qiangs: The cultivable land near Qinghai Lake (Koko Nor) was settled in prehistoric times and may have been the original home of the tribes who settled in Tibet. Ancient nomadic tribes were known to be living around the lake as early as the Shang Dynasty. The Naxi are descendants of the ancient Qiang tribes that migrated south from the Qinghai plateau, settled in Sichuan and Yunnan and gave rise to the several Tibeto-Burman speaking peoples of the region.
The first Naxis worshiped the forces of nature, water, thunder, the sun, the moon, fire, etc... but their principal cult was addressed to "woman's fertility". Sickness and disasters were caused by bad spirits that their shamans tried to placate or chase away. The Naxi society was matrilineal and matrifocal. Family names and possessions went to the daughters. Children knew their mother but not their father who could be any of the several lovers that women were free to choose, the masculine role model being provided by the maternal uncle."

I think the above tell, why the Shang preferred Qiang men as human sacrifices. They must have been looked down upon because their women were in charge?

The Zhou disappeared from the oracle bones after king Wu Ting and were again mentioned in the oracle bones of the last two Shang kings. The Zhou must have moved west after the defeat of the Qiang. The victory must have been very important in the history of the Zhou. That's why I think, that hexagram 63 is the story of the Fu Hao led campaign, but seen with eyes of the Duke of Zhou.

The first two lines, the fourth and the sixth line could be original Fu Hao divination texts. The third line must be rewroten, because Kâo Žung is the sacrificial title of Wu Ting. Fu Hao didn't know it, because she died before Wu Ting. The fifth line looks to me like rewroten. To me it express the concrete Zhou critique of last Shang king.

Your comments raise many interesting questions. The tomb 5 of Fu Hao is the only tomb not robbed, because it was placed outside the place of the royal Shang tombs.

 

[lienshan]

You may remember the Confucians went to far to say that the Zhou conquered the Shang without any bloodshed at all. Silly.

The battle of Muye is rather strange. In his war-speech before the battle Wu Wang told the soldiers to advance only six or seven steps and then re-group, and they should not slaugther Shang soldiers fleeing. A very strange defensive tactic? Why? It is only to understand, if he had made secret arrangements with leaders of the Shang army, that they should join forces against the Shang king Di Xin during the battle. If so the battle of Muye was in fact a military coup? Here are some interesting wikipedia info about the last Shang king Di Xin:

In the winter of 22nd year of his regime, he searched criminals at Wei
In the 23th year of his regime, he imprisoned the Duke Wen of Zhou vassal at Jiuli
In the 29th year of his regime, Duke Wen of Zhou was released and returned to Cheng
In the 31th year of his regime, Duke Wen training his troops at Bi and met Jiang Ziya as prime minister.
In the 39th year of his regime, the minister of Shang, Xinjia escaped Shang and ran to Zhou.
In the 41st year of his regime, Duke Wen of Zhou died.
In the 42nd year of his regime, Duke Jifa of Zhou gave the book of Dan (a book of art of ruling) to Jiang Ziya.
In the 47th year of his regime, the minister of Shang, Xiangzhi ran to Zhou.
On the day Wuzi, November of 51st year of his regime, Zhou army passed Mengjin.
Di Xin imprisoned Qizi, killed minister Bigan, minister Weizi ran to Zhou.

A legend tells, that Wu Wang found the suizided burnt body of Di Xin, shot three arrows in it and decapitated him. Afterwards he found three hunged women, shot three arrows in each body and decapitated them. Afterwards he honoured minister Bigan and then he returned home leaving two brothers to rule together with Lu Fu, the son of Di Xin.

Strange story. I don't think that king Wu Wang was ambitious but the Duke of Zhou and Jiang Ziya were?

 

[midaughter]

And now for the latest research on who wrote the Zhouyi: Tradition has it that this book was written during the time of the Western Zhou by King Wen while he was imprisoned and perhaps completed by Zhou Kong. Formal linguistic comparisons between the Shih Jing (Book of History) and bronze inscriptions show the Zhouyi to have been written in its present form no earlier than the late Western Zhou. Would this roughly be 180 years later? After the Zhou succession crisis created by the death of King Wen, the Duke of Zhou did not come to power until approximately 5 years after the Battle of Mu which was in 1045 BC. see Shaunessey, "The Composition of the Zhouyi, " pps. 16-49. There is also Chinese scholarship in agreement with this: LI Jingchi, "Zhouyi tanyuan." The late Western Zhou can roughly be dated to 800-481 BC. The latter date is tied to the sacking of the Zhou courtin 857 BC and the fleeing of King Li into exile.
Interesting to me is that the Great Treatise of WB, according to elusive dissertation of Gerald W. Swanson, dates this great work to the time period, also basing in on the Zhou writing styles of the time not the archaic earlier Western Zhou language. Thus, the Zhouyi, according to the Shaugnessy analysis, is a HISTORY of the Western Zhou and was not written contemporaneously as the events occurred.

 

[lienshan]

The theory of Shaughnessy is challenged by the theory of Chang Cheng-lang discussed in this tread. New archaeological founds support the theory of Chang Cheng-lang and oppose the theory of Shaughnessy:

Divination method II inscribed on an early Western Zhou pottery pat:

È = :
Àu = <
Ó = I

::<:I: (È È Àu È Ò È) = Shi (The Army, Hex 7)
:I<<<< (È Ò Àu Àu Àu Àu) = Bi (Union, Hex 8)
II<III (Ò Ò Àu Ò Ò Ò) = Hsiao Ch'u (The Taming Power of the Small, Hex 9)
III<II (Ò Ò Ò ÀU Ò Ò) = Lu (Treading Carefully, Hex 10)

Four sets of six numbers on one pottery pat in the king Wen order of the hexagrams can't be a coincidence. Such sets of six numbers were actually used when practizing divination. An example is a scapula excavated at Village Qijia, Fufeng County, with 3 questions and 3 six number divination method I answers:

È = :
Àu = <
Ìå = x
ÆB = +

:+x<:+ (È ÆB Ìå Àu È ÆB) = Shui (Following, Hex 17)
:<+<:: (È Àu ÆB Àu È È) = Xiao Xu (Small Restraint, Hex 16)
:+<:<+ (È ÆB Àu È Àu ÆB) = Chun (Difficulty at the Beginning, Hex 3)

The three questions too inscribed on the scapula:

Can the disease be cured on the day of Jia Yin if holding sacrifices to keep off evil?
Can the disease be cured if praying?
Can the disease be cured if praying after having held sacrifices to keep off evil?

http://zhouyi.sdu.edu.cn/english/newsxitong/selectedPapers/20051216182645.htm

The diviner that inscribed these signs on this bone could both read and write. The diviner must have had a stalk divination manual to consult. Why not the Zhouyi according to the theory of Chang Cheng-lang?

I think that the text of Zhouyi has an oral origin and find it plausible, that it was written down as a stalk divination manual by maybe Fu Hao? She could read and write. She had the power to do it. The Duke of Zhou knew this stalk divination manual, because he used it to divine, if he should rule or not, when Wu Wang died. He too had the power to rewrite the Shang stalk divination manual into a Zhou divination manual. An original Zhouyi that was copied. The original Zhouyi was probably lost, when the Zhou lost their western capitol in 770 BCE, but copies of the eastern Zhou vasal state copies have survived.

 

[midaughter]

You wrote:
Western Zhou Dynasty verifies the opinion that the Text of Zhouyi had come into being in the Western Zhou

The Western Zhou is a long time period. Shaugnessy says the LATE Western Zhou for the time of the writing of the Zhouyi
Early Western Zhou 1050 BC - 800 BC
Middle Western Zhou 800 BC - 857BC
Late Western Zhou 857 BC - 771 BC
(dates are not exact)

This is approximately a 275 year time period. There apparently was a shift from a more archaic writing from the Early Western Zhou to the Late Western Zhou that is discernible to these writers. However, this is far from my own expertise so I mention the two authors (in my last posting) who compare the Zhouyi with the Book of Odes and the Shi Jing: Many line statements of the Zhouyi are nearly identical with passages from the Book of Odes, also written in the style of the Late Western Zhou. (Does anyone claim the Book of Odes was written during the lifetimes of King Wen and the Duke of Zhou?) I do not pretend to be an expert here but I do not think that the Book of Odes is this ancient.

For example, Hexagram 28:2 "The withered willow bears shoots; the old man gets his wife." Zhouyi. Shih Jing: Hewxagram 28:5 "The withered willow bears flowers; The old maid gets her man." The difference in the line statements is the addition in the Zhouyi when compared to the Book of Odes is that in the Zhouyi, a prognostication phrase is added, such as auspicious, or not danger, or no blame in line statements that parallel the Shi Jing.

In this case of 28:2 the Zhouyi adds "There is nothing that is not beneficial." After 28:5 the Zhouyi says "There is no trouble; there is no praise. (Source, "Western Zhou History, " pps.338-339 by Shaunessy) This is not found in the Book of Odes. There are many, many examples of this where the Zhouyi parallels the Shih Jing but adds the prognostication statements.

You wrote:
At first let me introduce a very important discovery, i.e. a pottery pat inscribed with figures3
obtained at Village Xiren, Chang’an County, Shanxi Province in 2001.

This is interesting and I will read what I have however, slight it may be. This is a recent finding and it may that both theories of who wrote the Zhouyi may be true in part and wrong in part. In fact, it would be rather neat. I think the Duke of Zhou must have taken some writings with him from the Shang court. It just seems logical. I would add that the Zhou had a great library with much information of ancient times that was burned when the court was sacked in 771 BC. I see this unfortunate event as similar to the burning of the library at Alexandria, Egypt. The Zhouyi writings of the late Western Zhou may have been an attempt to reconstruct what had been lost. How very admirable this would have been.

you write:
That the text of Zhouyi has an oral origin and find it plausible, that it was written down as a stalk divination manual by maybe Fu Hao? She could read and write. She had the power to do it. The Duke of Zhou knew this stalk divination manual, because he used it to divine, if he should rule or not, when Wu Wang died. He too had the power to rewrite the Shang stalk divination manual into a Zhou divination manual.

I write:

The Fu Tzu of shang Tang's era and on used fresh water plastrons, almost exclusively period. As Keeper of the Sacrifices, which was a pre divination made before the main divination was made contemporaneously with that king reading the second plastron, was next to the king, the very highest office. I just could not imagine her fooling with yarrow at all and there is absolutely no evidence for it. There is no evidence she had a Xia background and hereditary shihs were very strict about staying with their own hereditary lineages and ancestry, considering this a matter of destiny, a charge given to them by their own ancestors. You must consider this a rigid social hierarchy.
The use of stalk divination is associated with the Xia and there was a Xia , non royal diviner clan serving the Shang court. There is slight information about this but I think is was the earlier Chang, not KC Chang writing about the Hsiao-thun in the 1930's). Interestingly the stalk divination by the Xia was considered only as a back up to shell or was used for lesser matters of importance.

there was a woman involved in one non royal diviner clan of lesser status probably related to Wu Ting my marriage. She was known as Lady Fu Xi, of course coming from the region of Xi, according to David Keightley and there about 60 other such women. (BTW, Keightley does not buy the theory that the Fu Tzu has an hereditary lineage, saying that Consort Hao, by her talents somehow caught the eye of Wu Ting). Chang Cheng Lang and a few others have the theory of the minority (KC Chang seemed to be receptive to his ideas, however.) It caught my eye because none of them knew anything about Hexagram 63 or 58 which seemed to support him (Chang Chen Lang) quite well.

Also, neither Keightley nor older Chang seems to have read Needham's description of the Fu Tzu lineage be conquered by Shang Tang, the founder of the dynasty . It is also very important to remember that as Needham says, at the time of conquest of this 9th vassal state, there were over (I guess but don't remember exactly) 20 forms of divination. Think about that for a minute: Divination by different tribes, clans, fortune tellers, scalliwags, wise men, foxy women and so forth. The first Shang King was appalled and first tried to outlaw divination. Isn't that funny? And about 500 yrs later Wu Ting's court was filled to the gills with high and low ranking diviners, 21 royal diviners alone.

Tan, the Duke of Zhou, in the waning days of the dynasty must have been in heaven for he loved the Yi.

PS:

Can you please condense your writings a bit to your main points and not just copy the article. I think communication will be greatly enhanced. BTW, I do not study Chinese characters, lately having found that this discipline to be currently under the assumed control of ectomorphic, hysterical,dictatorial control freaks who wish to take up everything with the authorities. Of course, it makes me want to yank their chains because its so easy with the authoritarian, superior, hierarchical brown nosers. shame on me, what was I thinking? Attached, me apparently in an opium den considering my faults. I am Li, war and weapons and strategy and yes, I wear army boots and so does Ni's mother.

 

[hmesker]

Divination method II inscribed on an early Western Zhou pottery pat:

See attachment. Image from 楚竹書《周易》研究, p. 484.

HM

 

[midaughter]

you wrote:I think the above tell, why the Shang preferred Qiang men as human sacrifices. They must have been looked down upon because their women were in charge?;
I write: The Qiang or Qifang (fang meaning enemy) were shepherds in areas that competed with the Shang pastoralists. Qifang prisoners knew how to prepare oracle bones, a trade useful to the Shang. They were also useful as horse breeders. Finally, they were closely allied with the Zhou, an on and off again enemy of the Shang. Militarily, the Shang constantly had troubles with the northern tribes such as the Qiang. I don't think men fight so much over woman as over power-land and the need for secure borders.. Certainly the instability of the northern border areas led to frequent battles with the Qiang. Finally the Qiang, without cities and fortifications, are easier targets. Blood sacrifice was a powerful ritual after battle. But they were also buried in walls, etc. attach, some of the beheaded but not necessarily the Qiang

 

[midaughter]

You wrote: I don't think that king Wu Wang was ambitious but the Duke of Zhou and Jiang Ziya were?

Wu seemed very ambitious, after all he won the battle of Muye but he died two years later Jiang was more of sage who had deserted the Shang, lived in poverty for while, and then contrived to meet King Wu by fishing without a hook, knowing the king would come by, and there was a prophesy that the king would meet a sage in this way and in a wu wei fashion, became the first prime minister. He was credited with the feat of writing the first military strategic book Liutao (Six Secret Strategic Teachings) source: http://www.jadedragon.com/archives/tao_heal/meh1223.html

 

[midaughter]

You wrote: The Zhou Dynsty that succeeded the Shang was set up on a feudal patriarchal clan system under which women's status was greatly reduced. Women who had taken part in politics and military affairs during the Shang Dynasty were snubbed as rebels or "hens reporting the dawn".

http://www.womenofchina.cn/people/wo...story/1405.jsp

I write: a very poor article while it may be true the participation of women in politics certainly decreased.

 

[midaughter]

HM wrote: Divination method II inscribed on an early Western Zhou pottery pat:

Please accept my apology for intemperate remarks above, I did not see your name and had no idea you would have been reading anything I write. It would be helpful if you would explain the meaning of those characters.

 

[lienshan]

The vertical hexagram to the left is III<II Lu (Treading Carefully, Hex 10) III:II
The horisontal hexagram to the left is II<III Hsiao Ch'u (The Taming Power of the Small, Hex 9) II:III
The vertical hexagram in the middle is :I<<<< Bi (Union, Hex 8) :I:
The horisontal hexagram to the right is ::<:I: Shi (The Army, Hex 7) :I:

 

[hmesker]

Please accept my apology for intemperate remarks above, I did not see your name and had no idea you would have been reading anything I write.

Never mind, I'm not bothered by it.

It would be helpful if you would explain the meaning of those characters.

上圖 陶拍(CHX采集:2) top picture pottery clap (reference to source I guess)
中圖 拓本(自右向左讀) middle picture rubbing (read from right to left)
下圓 摹本 bottom picture copy (of rubbing)
釋文(自右向左讀) explanation (read from right to left)
八八六八一八(師) 886818 (hexagram 7)
八一六六六六(比) 816666 (hexagram 8)
一一六一一一(小畜) 116111 (hexagram 9)
一一一六一一(履) 111611 (hexagram 10)

Although the sequence of hexagrams surely can be called remarkable I hesitate to draw any conclusions from it. I mean, there are so many other hexagram combinations found which have no resemblance with the hexagram order in the received text, see for instance the attachment (from 楚竹書《周易》研究, p. 482). To draw conclusions from only one sample is a bit risky, in my opinion.

Harmen.

 

[midaughter]

Omitted a good yarrow divination pic

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][/FONT]Yarrow divination, Inari Temple in Japan

 

[lienshan]

To draw conclusions from only one sample is a bit risky, in my opinion.

There is in fact one more pottery pat exavacated the same place with hexagram 63 and 64 that looks like:

<I<I<I
I<I<I<

but I'm just now more interested in the vase shown with eleven hexagrams of divination method II. I'm sure that Shang Sheng-lang would have loved it. Chinese is not my language, so I haven't seen the vase or heard of it before. To me it looks like the ten heavenly stems, that'll say one hexagram a day of the ten days week. Day number four has two hexagrams. Maybe because the first hexagram has three changing lines, if x and : are changing lines in divination method II? If so all the others have only two or less changing lines. If so the hexagrams on the vase were meant to be read consulting a divination manual, but three or more changing lines are hard to read and maybe that's why day four has an additional hexagram? The distribution of numbers is:

I = 41
x = 3
< = 10
: = 12

The distribution of all the divination method II numbers I've seen is:

(number 1) I = 49 + 41 = 90
(number 5) x = 03 + 03 = 06
(number 6) < = 29 + 10 = 39
(number 8) : = 12 + 12 = 24

It looks like the odds of the modern stalk divination method, when reversing even (yin) and odd (yang)?

 

[hmesker]

There is in fact one more pottery pat exavacated the same place with hexagram 63 and 64 that looks like:

<I<I<I
I<I<I<

I know (see attachment, from 楚竹書《周易》研究, p. 483), but adding such a small sample isn't very convincing. We have lots of OBI's with hexagram combinations, or even sequences, which do not seem to have any relationship with the Yijing as we know it. You cannot disregard that and draw conclusions from two samples while all the other material does not support it.

Harmen.

 

[lienshan]

We have lots of OBI's with hexagram combinations, or even sequences, which do not seem to have any relationship with the Yijing as we know it. You cannot disregard that and draw conclusions from two samples while all the other material does not support it.

I look at the two pottery pats with the king Wen order in connection with the other founds. Both the ::<:I: Hex 7 and the :I<<<< Hex 8 from the 7-8-9-10 sequence have two different ways of showing the even numbers. This can be explained in two ways:

The sequence of the four hexagrams is a result of practical stalk divination, that by coincidence is in the king Wen order. Or the hexagram sequence is by purpose made in the king Wen order, but the Yijing divination method of changing lines was not invented yet?

I examine the last possibility, that Yijing is based on a numerology stalk divination method. Such divination methods are "strange" to most Yijing scholars. Even scholar Shang Sheng-lang tried and failed, as he himself describes in his article. That's why I find the midaughter's research of diviner clans etc. very inspiring

The numerology stalk divination is divided into method I and II. The method I notification is recognizable by its use of old Shang numbers e.g. number 7 (+). The method I was e.g. used on the 3 health questions scapula exactly as a tortoise divination. Each stack of six numbers might be compatible with a tortoise divination T-crack using the method I? The three numbers below symbolizing the horisontal crack and the three numbers above symbolizing the vertical crack of a tortoise T-crack? The tortoise T-cracks were mostly placed in five opposing symmetry pairs on the plastrons. Maybe this has a connection with the king Wen order of hexagram pairs? I found this describtion of the tortoise divination method:

"If the perpendicular crack was more or less at a right angle to the vertical one, that is, within twenty degrees up or down the 90 degree point, the oracular reply was deemed positive. If the angle of the crack did not fall within this 40-degree range (from 70 to 110), the reply was negative."

http://www.civilization.ca/cmc/china/chine15e.html

 

[lienshan]

The pottery pat with four hexagrams in king Wen order might outdate the modern view of the Zhouyi origin? I checked "the historical truth" in "I Ching resources" of this site and read:

"The roots of the I Ching we have today can be confidently dated to the 8th century BC. Firstly, some of its vocabulary is common in documents of the time but has not been in use since. Secondly, references have been identified in it to historical events of the time. In particular, the Judgement of Hexagram 35 refers to Price Kang, a Chou prince who is known to have abandoned the name 'Kang' shortly after the Chou conquest."

Somewhere else I read, that after defeating the Lu Fu rebellion the Duke of Zhou rounded up many of the remnant Shang people and presented them to his younger brother Feng, who became the ruler of the land of Wey under the title Kang Shu.

And a bronze vessel text: "When the King attacked the Shang cities he granted a new fief of the land of Wei to Tu, the Marquis of Kang. Yi, the Minister of Lands in Mei, along with Tu cast this sacrificial vessel for their late father."

A commentary to the vessel text says, that most commentators agree that the Marquis of Kang of this inscription is the man who is at the focus of the Book of History chapter, The Announcement to the Marquis of Kang, the brother of the Duke of Zhou.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/cfu/sbe03/sbe03036.htm

After campaigning the Yi-tribes of the Huei River Valley, the Duke of Zhou returned home, where he composed the "Institutes of the Zhou" which established and rectified ritual and music. I've not heard of "the Institutes of the Zhou" before, but it could have involved e.g. the invention of Zhouyi according to the timeline concerning his brother, the Marquis of Kang?

Zhouyi was invented during the reign of king Xuan of Chou 827 - 782 BC according to "the historical truth" based on textuel comparation by e.g. Shaughnessy, but what about the content of the Zhouyi? I see absolutely no nothing genious in the bibliography of king Xuan indicating, that the Zhouyi was invented during his reign? His son king You was killed in 771 and the capitol destroyed. The received text might come from a new rewritten court Zhouyi, because the old was lost. That would be a very resonable explanation of "the 8th century BC language" of the received text.

 

[lienshan]

I just could not imagine her fooling with yarrow at all and there is absolutely no evidence for it. There is no evidence she had a Xia background and hereditary shihs were very strict about staying with their own hereditary lineages and ancestry, considering this a matter of destiny, a charge given to them by their own ancestors. You must consider this a rigid social hierarchy.
The use of stalk divination is associated with the Xia and there was a Xia , non royal diviner clan serving the Shang court. There is slight information about this but I think is was the earlier Chang, not KC Chang writing about the Hsiao-thun in the 1930's). Interestingly the stalk divination by the Xia was considered only as a back up to shell or was used for lesser matters of importance.

Hi midaughter

I took me some time to understand the most important part of your reseach. I think that You are absolutely right concerning diviner clans and hereditary shihs. The yarrowstalk oracle is associated with the Xia and what the chinese scholars name divination method II, might in fact be the Xia divination method?

Have a look at the pottery with eleven hexagrams shown by Harmen and compare with the signs 1 - 8 - 15 - 18 of the 24 attached signs found in the Xia capitol Erlitou. Especially the 8th sign X is interesting. It's plausible to read the three X's on the pottery as three simplified "five's" of the Shang number 5 I><I, but they look like the Xia X signs, possibly 5's?

Have a look at the pottery pat with four hexagrams in the king Wen order. The ) ( signs are plausible to read like Shang number 8's and are probably Xia number 8's? The Xia V signs are reverted upside down compared to the Shang number 6's. Interesting. The robbing is actually reverted upside down compared to the photo of the pottery pat?

I have learned not to make hastely conclusions, but it seems very interesting ...

 

[midaughter]

National Museum of History: HENANSHENG YUN TAI GUWU TULU. (An Illustrated Catalogue of Artefacts from Henan Province Taken to Taiwan). Taibei, 1999. 160 pp. Colour plates. 30x22 cm. Paper.
GBP 45.00
Available
A collaborative work between the Henan Museum and the National Museum of History in Taibei detailing and depicting the 38 crates of artefacts from Henan province that were taken to Taiwan in 1949 by the Nationalists. The artefacts included Xinzheng bronzes, jades, Tang sancai tomb statuary, objects from the Yinxu excavations, textiles etc. The work is most interesting in apparently being a first effort to collate these artefacts. Lists of the artefacts are given and a good number of major pieces illustrated in colour. In Chinese.

http://www.hanshan.com/txtlists/list119.txt

During WWII several box car loads of oracle bones from Anyang were taken back to Taiwan via rail car. The scientists did not communicate due to the pressures of the Cold War until just recently. I have read that there are many oracle bones. How unfortunate that their layering has been lost so that we cannot date them in any satisfying way.

Since Anyang is ground zero for all the ancient divinations it would be wonderful to see what has b een gleaned. I do not remember the name of the scientist, but he has catalogued these oracle bones is what I hear.

As for me, I am really just a bit of an historian by training but mainly a real diviner and WB afficianado. I, as most, must rely on the expertise of others in their own fields. We really need each other. I can look at characters, sequences, and forms of pottery but there is no way I can be learned in all areas. I understand character interpretation and formal scholarship must follow the strictest rules and avoid hasty conclusions. However, even if there can be no conclusion there can be learned opinions. As for me I am wondering how Shaunessy can say the Zhoyi was written in the Late Western Zhou era when there are so many other very reasonable arguments that can be made. For example, Marshall's interpretation of Hexagrams 55 and 7 find resonance with me and I think we all can debunk the idea that KIng Wen and the Duke did it all under some sort of divine guidance. I also think that portions of the Zhouyi have come from numerous sources and that WB in its oldest sections represents a separate transmission coming down from the Shang-Sung scholars. (coming soon from me, the Mandate of Heaven shthick, more Zhou propoganda that needs setting straight.) So I write commentary which has more room for speculation-I put forth my own ideas but also the ideas of those who may disagree. The important thing is my profound gratitude to be able to make some contribution in this intriguing area. M

 

[midaughter]

Squigglieville and environs

characters:
http://tinyurl.com/2325nn


These bones were heated to obtain a pair of cracks consisting of a vertical line plus, at about mid-point, a perpendicular line, corresponding to the present Chinese character meaning 'divination' or 'question to a deity'. If the perpendicular crack was more or less at a right angle to the vertical one, that is, within twenty degrees up or down the 90 degree point, the oracular reply was deemed positive. If the angle of the crack did not fall within this 40-degree range (from 70 to 110), the reply was negative.
Herbert Plutschow (sorry I know this is a copyright but just for this little use, I think its o.k.

The question or charge was asked in a positive fashion on one side, e. g. The king have good hunting on the full moon
and on the other side e.g. the king will not have good hunting on the full moon.

I wonder if this is where Karcher gets his method of asking the questions he poses to the Sage.

 

[midaughter]

I have two more points about the Zhou and the Eastern Neighbor idea of Hexagram 63 (the controversy being that in 63:5 the Eastern Neighbor who sacrificed an ox was no as sincere, etc. as the Shang and their simple sacrifice. Here is some authority that at the time of this occurrence, the Zhou were indeed to the east:


A mediocre sinologist error would be to claim that Zhou people originated from the west or the Central Asia. The 'west' story could have derived from two inputs:
A. Zhou people's locality to the west of Xia and Shang people, and Zhou King Wuwang's claim as people from the west. As we detailed below, when Zhou Lord Wuwang campaigned against last Shang King Zhouwang, he eulogized his alliance's bravery by calling his armies the "people from the west" .(Zhou King Wuwang's alliance also pointed to the fact that Zhou people, by the timeframe of 1122 BC?, had basically surrounded the Shang people from north, west and south.)
THE BEND IN THE YELLOW RIVER
B. Liu Qiyu in his Anthology of the Hua Xia Civilization, tackled the issue of 'xi' or west. His validations pointed to the land of 'he qu' (i.e., the inflexion point of the Yellow River Bends) as the 'land of the west', i.e, later land between Qin and Jin principalities. Liu Qiyu cited Guo Yu's statement in regards to You-yu-shi as proof that Yu clan had deep connection with Xia people. The statement from Guo Yu could be paraphrased like this: "In ancient times, Count Chong-bo Gun also reigned in the land of You-yu-shi clan." Count Chong-bo Gun was the father of Lord Yu and dwelled in southern or southwestern Shanxi Prov, i.e., the east bank of today's East Yellow River Bend.*

Also, although there is today ot debate about the geographical origins of the Zhou, there is authority for the idea that there were connected to the Xia:
Zhou people, said to be descendants of Xia people, had a long history of intermarriage with the Jiang clan (Their surname was Qiangic. tHERE has been study of 'jin wen' or bronze inscriptions in stating that 12 kings of Western Zhou Dynasty had inter-married with Jiang-surname women consecutively. Later the states of Qi, Shen, Xu and Lü all have a Jiang family ancestry. (I am assuming this is a Xia clan) Also,
THE EARLY ZHOU: DURING THE TIME OF THE XIA DYNASTY
THE NORTHERN LANDS OF BIN - the Xia-Zhou Connection
Gongliu's son (Qingjie) set up a fiefdom in a place called 'Bin', in today's western Shenxi Province, a place belonging to Xirong. ('Bin' was disputed by some scholars to be still in Shanxi Province rather than Shenxi Province.) After leaving the lands controlled by the Xia, King Taikang lost his throne, Houji's son (Buzhu) left once again for Rong and Di lands in the north. . Another two generations a king, Gongliu would renew agriculture in this area. This renewal would be a basis for the conjecture that Zhou people had changed their mode of life from nomadic animal husbandry to agriculture.

This is taken from my notes in 2005, unfortunately, being disorganized I can't find the author.

recent arguments are taken up in the Cambridge History of China to 236 BC? a Shaunnesy and Lowe book.

 

[charly]

... I do not study Chinese characters, lately having found that this discipline to be currently under the assumed control of ectomorphic, hysterical,dictatorial control freaks who wish to take up everything with the authorities. Of course, it makes me want to yank their chains because its so easy with the authoritarian, superior, hierarchical brown nosers...

M.:

Are you perhaps a Tintin reader? It reminds me captain Haddock...

Tintin and Captain Haddock, by Herge

It's a pity that you don't issues your own interpretation for at least some characters, you could begin with say, fu (may be you yet do it?).

I think wild inspiration is no bad, because it speaks of stories (not History) that make the truly stuff of meaning.

For people fond of I Ching job, good enough is to have a wide story range, still better if history based.

yours,

Charly

 

[Sparhawk]

Seriously, Mary, how can you write so much and come up with so many conclusions an throw a statement like the one Charly points to? I understand you have some issues with some of those that study Chinese as part of their path to understand the Yi but I believe that throwing all those that study Chinese for the same reason out the window as "authoritarian, superior, hierarchical brown nosers" is a big and unfair stretch.

Furthermore, at this very moment, you are basing all of your conclusions based on works and sources you've read, or were passed to you, in English. Where do you think those came from? Where do you think those scholarly sources and self-styled Masters draw their conclusions from? There is not a "King James Version" of the Yi...

 

[lienshan]

For people fond of I Ching job, good enough is to have a wide story range, still better if history based.

It's nessesary to know the location of the author, when reading the east-west hexagram 63.5 correct. That's why I will draw your attention to hexagram 18. This hexagram is the Chang Cheng-lang article example no. 11 +<<+I: described as the Chou-yüan "yüeh ch'i" bone no.85. This bone is too the subject of an article by Stephen L. Field:

http://zhouyi.sdu.edu.cn/english/newsxitong/selectedPapers/2007225175813.asp

His translation of the bone is "They ... present the king a gift of fish". I remember that he in another article used the translation "Will ... give king gift of a fish". Some of the text might miss, but I have no problem reading the meaning of the text as "corruption". The text could ofcourse be read otherwise, but "corruption" matches the name of the Yi hexagram 18 Ku / Work on What Has Been Spoiled (Decay). Stephen Karcher uses the word "korruption" as name of hexagram 18 in his danish version of I Ching.

I read hexagram 18 this history based way, if the Duke of Zhou was the author of the line statements:

Six at the beginning means:
Setting right what has been spoiled by the father.
If there is a son,
No blame rests upon the departed father.
Danger. In the end good fortune.

The father is the last Shang king Di Xin and the departed father is Wu Ting. The son is Lu Fu or Wu Geng.

Nine in the second place means:
Setting right what has been spoiled by the mother.
One must not be too persevering.

The mother is Daji, the wife of king Di Xin.

Nine in the third place means:
Setting right what has been spoiled by the father.
There will be little remorse. No great blame.

Six in the fourth place means:
Tolerating what has been spoiled by the father.
In continuing one sees humiliation.

Six in the fifth place means:
Setting right what has been spoiled by the father.
One meets with praise.

Nine at the top means:
He does not serve kings and princes,
Sets himself higher goals.

He is the Duke of Zhou. A very religious man thinking of himself almost as a kind of prophet reestablishing the correct order of the Shang sacrifices to their ancestors. His point of view of is too expressed in BOOK VI. THE METAL-BOUND COFFER, where he speaks of the difference between himself and his late brother king Wu Wang:

"I was lovingly obedient to my father; I am possessed of many abilities and arts, which fit me to serve spiritual beings. Your great descendant, on the other hand, has not so many abilities and arts as I, and is not so capable of serving spiritual beings."

 

[midaughter]

Luis: Perhaps you did not see my apology and self-deprecating picture of me in the opium den. MH and HM were having a little tiff. Since i even said I wear army boots and so does Ni's mother I think you should let me off the hook, or else!

Miss Army Boots

 

[midaughter]

The father is the last Shang king Di Xin and the departed father is Wu Ting. The son is Lu Fu or Wu Geng.

quick note: there is a later King Wu Ding,father of the last Shang King ,Wu Ting is a couple of
hundred years, at least, before this. Why do they have to make this so hard?

 

[Sparhawk]

I think you should let me off the hook, or else!

Miss Army Boots

Black leather? Pffft!! Promises, promises...

 

[midaughter]

As we detailed below, when Zhou Lord Wuwang campaigned against last Shang King Zhouwang, he eulogized his alliance's bravery by calling his armies the "people from the west" .(Zhou King Wuwang's alliance also pointed to the fact that Zhou people, by the timeframe of 1122 BC?, had basically surrounded the Shang people from north, west and south.)
THE BEND IN THE YELLOW RIVER
B. Liu Qiyu in his Anthology of the Hua Xia Civilization, tackled the issue of 'xi' or west. His validations pointed to the land of 'he qu' (i.e., the inflexion point of the Yellow River Bends) as the 'land of the west', i.e, later land between Qin and Jin principalities. Liu Qiyu cited Guo Yu's statement in regards to You-yu-shi as proof that Yu clan had deep connection with Xia people. The statement from Guo Yu could be paraphrased like this: "In ancient times, Count Chong-bo Gun also reigned in the land of You-yu-shi clan." Count Chong-bo Gun was the father of Lord Yu and dwelled in southern or southwestern Shanxi Prov, i.e., the east bank of today's East Yellow River Bend.*

Both these ideas would tend to say that the 'Eastern Neighbor' of 63:5 who sacrificed the ox in an elaborate sacrifice, done only by the Zhou, it being their central ritual for communion with heaven, is indeed the Shang speaking of the Zhou. BTW, I am going on WB. I will look up the line in Legge online. Here it is: 5. The fifth NINE, undivided, shows its subject (as) the neighbour in the east who slaughters an ox (for his sacrifice); but this is not equal to the (small) spring sacrifice of the neighbour in the west, whose sincerity receives the blessing. Perhaps the wording of 'neighbor' is being polite and not mentioning the Zhou by name. Next post, a long discussion of the Zhou Ox sacrifice

 

[charly]

... Perhaps you did not see my apology...

Mary:

I think you don't need to apologize, when people «shamanize» they can speak as they want and can say things like you have said. Nobody must be ofended by this (Harmen didn't), people thinks that Great-Spirit was who spoke.

I personnally shall enjoy if you only hear some advices:

1) be more clear when editing your writings and quotings.
2) not fear to chinese characters.

Yours,


Charly