Entropy and Changing Lines: The I Ching has its say.

[my_key]

Being aware that the original thread was focussed around reading changing lines in chronological order (this thread) and morphed into something exploring entropy (post #15 onwards) as being the mechanism that drove the change at the point of each changing line, I felt it was appropriate to give the topic its own thread.

There is some rich discussion in the original thread (@ dobro p, @hilary, @trojina, @Liselle) and it seemed an appropriate continuation to bring into the discussion a commentator who is closer to the subject than most. More than likely at the right pay grade too.

I, therefore, asked Yi for a contribution.

“Entropy and Changing Lines?“

37: 3.4 <> 25

Dwelling People <> Disentangling

37 suggests the founding of a new dwelling, (a place of new order) through the mechanism of 25 which produces unexpected, spontaneous freedom from confusion or past affliction.

I like the association that Karcher gives to 25 of ‘waning moon’ which aligns with the ideas of decline that entropy embodies. Equally, other themes mentioned in the original thread, replicated in alternative Hexagram names for 25 include ‘Natural Innocence’ (Coates) and ‘Natural’ (LiSe).

37 has been given a whole raft of names too including some that are more off-beat, ‘Organizing for the Long Term’ (Javery), ‘Home, Family, Belonging’ (Sorrell) and ‘Proper Relationships’ (Seabrook).

Entropy certainly plays a big part in organising things for the long term within the realms of matter and energy. Our personal, and even soul development relies on the concept that each stage of re-organisation takes us to a new place of belonging on our journey home to the true (proper) self.

In this respect the changes at lines 3 and 4 occur at the thresholds of inner and outer flow. Where an inner rebalancing at line 3 removes obstacles (like the action of a waning moon) that heralds the arrival of something greater than there was before at line 4. So, whether or not the mechanism for change is entropy Yi is indicating that the place of change happens right in the centre in the murky hinterlands of our being.

My intention is not to force this reading to prove entropy is the mechanism for change, or changing lines, and so would appreciate exploring this or other interpretations of the consultation further.

 

[Trojina]

At first I thought this isn't answering directly but referencing the discussion in the other thread. Line 4 saying 'Hilary is right'.

Then I thought 'Yi has chosen to speak in terms of family members'. Well yes it has. Yi is framing the answer in terms of what the change lines do to the family members as represented by the trigrams !

Any change line will change a family member into another family member. If line 1 changes in Li then the middle daughter becomes the eldest son Zhen. If line 2 changes in trigram Zhen then the eldest son becomes the eldest daughter in trigram Xun and so on.

When family members switch there is no entropy it is change. Li does not decay to become Zhen and Zhen does not decay to become Xun and so on.

So broadly Yii is referencing the trigram, family members. And no one stays an eldest son or a youngest daughter in any situation the role changes, the experience changes. This is not entropy it is a change of position. It is change. We do not need to fix it as pivoting on the process of entropy.

Nothing is decaying or dying in this reading. The family unit there is whole and complete and change happens within it which is why you have the 2 central lines moving, it's talking about the cohesion of change within the family as represented in trigrams.

Yang pattern is 62, yin pattern is 61 this is a point of intensity not entropy. In 62 there is indeed a transition being made, a great water crossed and it is felt as such on the inside in 61 where one knows the change subjectively. So when a line changes to another line and becomes another trigram, another family member it's a point of intensity and transition, a focus point, a catalyst. This ties in very much I think with Hilary's ideas in the other thread ? Maybe ? Well she talked of change lines as points that 'light up' so to speak. This was not her saying 'all change lines are good' or somesuch but lighting up as in becoming intense, bright the point of change into something else.

What about the 25 ? I think it's pointing to the fact that change changes and we cannot overlay a design or plan upon the nature of change. It is what it is as they say. Change is change, why must we try to say it happens because of this or because of that. In 25 one has to move with it it's not a case of questioning it. Why does the middle daughter transmogrify into the eldest son ? Because she does. She didn't get old and shrivel and die she changed ? Why? Well because she did. (25)

One could also see the family members in 37 'disentangling', 25, from being who they are to change to another. Disentangling is not the same thing a entropy. It is simply 'undoing from' one place to another place which is also known as 'change'.

I think the word 'change' sums up perfectly what change lines do. It doesn't get better than that. Adding on more than that is departing from 25, is imposing one's agenda, philosophy and so on. Best to clear the clutter and let middle daughter morph to eldest son and eldest son morph to mother and so it goes. I don't think we need to pile more on and I'm glad the reading confirms this. I'm impressed that Yi is quite clear on this matter. IMO.

 

[my_key]

Hi Trojina
You make some interesting points here and I'm sure we can chew the cud a bit more over the different perspectives we hold.

The first thing I noticed is that I'm not sure how you have addressed the enquiry “Entropy and Changing Lines?“ specifically. Your use of the family roles does seem to miss the point that Yi has identified entropy as being part of the family. What you have written is lacking any contemplation of the idea that it could fit as a family member of the mechanism behind a changing line. It's clear Yi speaks to the mechanism of entropy as being part of the family yet it seems you have set out your stall to discount or disprove what Yi has offered. If entropy isn't part of the family of mechanisms for change then why does Yi return Dwelling People as the primary hexagram? Your reasoning doesn't make sense for me, however would welcome insights into your thought process that seems to go against the cast.

Any change line will change a family member into another family member. If line 1 changes in Li then the middle daughter becomes the eldest son Zhen. If line 2 changes in trigram Zhen then the eldest son becomes the eldest daughter in trigram Xun and so on.

When family members switch there is no entropy it is change. Li does not decay to become Zhen and Zhen does not decay to become Xun and so on.

So broadly Yii is referencing the trigram, family members. And no one stays an eldest son or a youngest daughter in any situation the role changes, the experience changes. This is not entropy it is a change of position. It is change. We do not need to fix it as pivoting on the process of entropy.

This sounds a bit muddled to me. The enquiry is about entropy as being one of the mechanisms for the changing line to become manifest as change, not about what the changing line manifests. In a hexagram, if we take Wilhelm, he assigns line 5 to that of the husband. When line 5 changes it still remain in the position of husband i.e, in the relating hexagram line 5 does not suddenly become the line of the son or the wife. I see no need to drop into the world of trigrams. Doing so does not add any apparent value.

Nothing is decaying or dying in this reading. The family unit there is whole and complete and change happens within it which is why you have the 2 central lines moving, it's talking about the cohesion of change within the family as represented in trigrams.

I agree, nothing is decaying in the reading. The decay, I'm suggesting, exists inside the changing line, it is a potential flavour of what could be the mechanism for the instigation or arrival of the changing line appearing in the reading.

Yang pattern is 62, yin pattern is 61 this is a point of intensity not entropy. In 62 there is indeed a transition being made, a great water crossed and it is felt as such on the inside in 61 where one knows the change subjectively. So when a line changes to another line and becomes another trigram, another family member it's a point of intensity and transition, a focus point, a catalyst.

I hadn't considered looking at Change Operators for the reading - that's a good line of enquiry.

The Yang Operator can be seen as the pattern that describes the inspiration for inner transformative aspects of the situation. 62 speaks of this pattern as being like a little bird that works through careful adaptability in small ways that spreads the words of the underlying process.

The Yin Operator can be seen as describing the pattern in which the change occurs and the possibilities of realising the change. 61 aligns connection to a new centre through sincerity and inner truth.

These patterns for me do not convey "a point of intensity". More a point without intensity, and actually not a point at all. I see the Change Patterns as representing a gradual adaptive internal process moving in a truthful sincere direction towards a new centre of balance. As mentioned in the other thread entropy only knows one direction - the direction of decay or decomposition- and cannot contemplate anything other than it's own natural state or truth. That fits well for me, certainly moreso than lighting up or expansion idea you are championing.

While your points about the trigrams are well made, they again miss the mark of looking at the situation from a changing line perspective. The enquiry I made was not 'Entropy and Trigrams?'

This ties in very much I think with Hilary's ideas in the other thread ? Maybe ? Well she talked of change lines as points that 'light up' so to speak. This was not her saying 'all change lines are good' or somesuch but lighting up as in becoming intense, bright the point of change into something else.

I'm not invalidating Hilary's posts about lighting up and expansion, however what you are presenting here seems to fall short of adding credence to her hypothesis through your chosen path and your representations of the incumbent Change Patterns.

What about the 25 ? I think it's pointing to the fact that change changes and we cannot overlay a design or plan upon the nature of change. It is what it is as they say. Change is change, why must we try to say it happens because of this or because of that. In 25 one has to move with it it's not a case of questioning it.

See below about more about 25. I do agree though that change does what it says on the tin. Enquiring about whether it happens because of this or that? For me the enquiry is just an open expression or extension of my creative curiosity.

Why does the middle daughter transmogrify into the eldest son ? Because she does. She didn't get old and shrivel and die she changed ? Why? Well because she did. (25)

From a line perspective when a line 4 changes in the primary hexagram it remains line 4 in the relating hexagram. There is no transmogrification to something else! However, I can align with the fact that the mechanism for change can be seen as a transmogrification. Transmogrification carries a meaning of change in a surprising or magical way.

One could also see the family members in 37 'disentangling', 25, from being who they are to change to another. Disentangling is not the same thing a entropy. It is simply 'undoing from' one place to another place which is also known as 'change'.

You are right. Disentangling is not the same thing as entropy. That's why I introduced different names for Hex 25 in my original post. I could have equally chosen 'Without Entanglement' (Retsima and Sabbadini) or 'Without Falsehood' (Huang).

In the context of the Hexagram 25, which I tried to convey above, the concept of a natural innocent process that counters continued entanglement with the lesser aspects of ourself or of the situation is what it is key. 25 is the context of of the reading showing how entropy relates to the changing line. ( the framed question is important here too, and discounting it, whether in this or any other consultation, offers a myriad opportunities to go down erroneous paths of interpretation. Focussing on shooting down one word here does not really add to the open minded discussions that could take place in this 'entropy specific thread.

I think the word 'change' sums up perfectly what change lines do. It doesn't get better than that. Adding on more than that is departing from 25, is imposing one's agenda, philosophy and so on. Best to clear the clutter and let middle daughter morph to eldest son and eldest son morph to mother and so it goes. I don't think we need to pile more on and I'm glad the reading confirms this. I'm impressed that Yi is quite clear on this matter. IMO.

I agree. There is nothing compelling to stop using the terms change or changing lines. That is not my agenda. Exploring, with an open mind, the mechanisms of change from all sides using the I Ching as an originating reference point is my intention with this thread. It is always healthy to have hypotheses challenged, so thanks for doing that, especially bringing in the Change Patterns perspective.

For me your conclusion with regard to this seems less than proven and the introduction of your trigrams approach confused me as to what you we looking to say or prove. It felt at times like you were trying to answer another question.

On a final, similar, note, lest anyone is concerned, I will continue to call rain, rain. I always like adding to my understanding of how the Universe works and to know that I can explore and research the phenomenon know as rain. A quick Google search of 'mechanism behind rain' and hey presto.......

Under the cooling mechanism, precipitation occurs when the amount of moisture in the atmosphere exceeds the saturation capacity of air. Warm air can hold more water than cold air. If warm, moist air is cooled sufficiently, water in excess of the saturation capacity will fall as precipitation.

"Air's Saturation Capacity Overload" I'm certain is not going to catch on after all these years.

Take Care

 

[Trojina]

It's clear Yi speaks to the mechanism of entropy as being part of the family

I don't think it has. Yi has ways of speaking about entropy and it's not here.

It could be when you say

The first thing I noticed is that I'm not sure how you have addressed the enquiry “Entropy and Changing Lines?“ specifically.

...that you are coming from the stance that because you have the word 'entropy' in the question that Yi has to talk about entropy even if it is not 'the' factor behind why change lines change. I don't read like that. If Yi really isn't talking about entropy I think it doesn't agree with your idea.

It's clear Yi speaks to the mechanism of entropy as being part of the family yet it seems you have set out your stall to discount or disprove what Yi has offered. I

No it isn't clear that Yi speaks to the mechanism as entropy being part of the family. You read it as that, that's your interpretation. You did ask for other perspectives since as you said

My intention is not to force this reading to prove entropy is the mechanism for change, or changing lines, and so would appreciate exploring this or other interpretations of the consultation further.

Yet here you are insisting that your reading must be seen as saying as entropy is the mechanism for changing lines to change.

And I have not discounted what Yi has offered I have fully embraced what it's saying it is just I think it is saying something different to what you think it is saying.

It seems I cannot have a view on this reading without you saying that I have discounted Yi's offering. Hmm well then you are saying you're interpretation is what Yi has offered. I do make a distinction between your interpretation and what Yi is actually saying in my view.

But you did ask for other views and I am wondering why you did as when when I offer my view you say I am discounting Yi. No that is my interpretation of Yi's answer. I find your interpretation quite far removed from the reading.

Your reasoning doesn't make sense for me, however would welcome insights into your thought process that seems to go against the cast.

I really don't think you welcome my insights at all, far from it. You have just accused me, when I offered my view of the cast as

yet it seems you have set out your stall to discount or disprove what Yi has offered.

I like what Yi offered and I wrote about it. I just thought perhaps you actually did want other views that's all.

This sounds a bit muddled to me. The enquiry is about entropy as being one of the mechanisms for the changing line to become manifest as change, not about what the changing line manifests. In a hexagram, if we take Wilhelm, he assigns line 5 to that of the husband. When line 5 changes it still remain in the position of husband i.e, in the relating hexagram line 5 does not suddenly become the line of the son or the wife. I see no need to drop into the world of trigrams. Doing so does not add any apparent value.

I'm not muddled you just aren't clear about what I was saying at all. Maybe reread the post ? I don't think you have properly read nor understood my post.

Can I make it any clearer...trying....

Any change line is within a trigram.

When a line changes in a trigram it makes another trigram. You're with me so far, yes.

Trigrams are family members also and Yi has chosen 37, to speak about change lines as family members.

When a change line changes in a trigram, any trigram, it changes to another family member, you can check that out by reading my first post. So for example when the middle line of Li changes then the trigram changes to Qian. Daughter changes to father in the trigram change. It's a change but it is not entropy.

All I am talking about is what change lines do when they change in trigrams, which is where they always change of course (and Yi references that clearly with the 37, Yi keep it 'in the family'), and how they morph.

I think it pretty clear given that trigrams are assigned family members places that actually given that 37 was cast this aspect of change lines in family member trigrams really is pertinent to the reply.

. Exploring, with an open mind, the mechanisms of change from all sides using the I Ching as an originating reference point is my intention with this thread. It is always healthy to have hypotheses challenged, so thanks for doing that, especially bringing in the Change Patterns perspective

No use talking about exploring with an open mind and then saying things like

. I see no need to drop into the world of trigrams. Doing so does not add any apparent value.

So you want to 'explore with an open mind' but my ideas don't add any value because you haven't understood them. Thanks. I can see it's not really worth replying here further.

Enjoy your explorations.

 

[my_key]

Hi Trojina
Wow! That is a lot of refutation. From where I'm standing, you are perfectly entitled to hold your own perspective and I'm not trying to refute or change anyone's world view here. I'd just like to point out that where you see, in my comments closedness, I see observations offered from my perspective.

Debate / exploration progresses best through exchange. To that end, I'm going to pick up on one of your comments about the world of trigrams. I am always open to going into trigrams so will offer my trigram perspective without negating yours in any way.

You are right with your thinking. I do welcome your views, and that of others, however I reserve the right to not instantaneously agree with them. I chose to apply my own critical thinking and see how the scales come to rest.

I was dismissive of the trigrams approach, I think partly because I failed to understand your perspective from what you had written. I apologise for that and I will address that failing now.

Reminding myself of the Enquiry and Yi's response
“Entropy and Changing Lines?“
37: 3.4 <> 25

(I use Huang's hexagram names at this stage rather than Dwelling People &Disentanglement for consistency with the quotes used)

37 Household

Wind over Fire (Eldest daughter over daughter)

"Wind springs forth from the fire. This gua symbolises that the wind of harmony is fed by the flames of love" (Huang)

Wind (Eldest Daughter) in the position of the outer trigram relates to significant acts that influence matters through small steps.
Fire (Daughter) in the position of inner trigram attracts clarity so that when observing the patterns of life, connections and insights become more complete and better understood.

25 Without Falsehood

Heaven (Father) above, Thunder (Eldest Son) below

The inner gua is Thunder, symbolising motion; the outer gua is Heaven, indicating strength. (Huang)

Heaven (Father) in the position of the outer trigram relates that power, dedication, and courage will make key contributions and will feed into our life.

Thunder (Eldest Son) in the position of inner trigram speaks to the spontaneity that allows powerful break throughs in our emotional and intuitive world.

Taking these together the trigrams could be telling a story of how " Entropy and Changing Lines" align or relate to one another with respect to the Inner and Outer Worlds.

In the Inner World in a context of making spontaneous breakthroughs, clarity and insight is brought to the patterns of thoughts, feelings and emotions to which we habitually dance. Perhaps the image here is one of the eldest son lending his strength to help his sister climb the steep hill.

In the Outer World entropy and changing lines create a safe environment protected by the father in which life can be influenced by the small steps that need to be taken. The Father holds his eldest daughter safe and secure so that she can make the journey at her pace. It takes a long time to arrive somewhere without falsehood.

When you say

"I think it pretty clear given that trigrams are assigned family members places that actually given that 37 was cast this aspect of change lines in family member trigrams really is pertinent to the reply".

I would 100% agree with you after having conducted this piece of exploration into trigrams.

Like with the Changing Patterns you recommended it seems that the reading becomes richer still when trigrams are incorporated into the exploration of entropy and changing lines. Especially, when viewed in the context of family members. This does tell more of the deeper relationship of Entropy and Changing Lines and how they belong together and interact as part of the same family as the strive towards their next embodiment of change.

 

[my_key]

The Caterpillar to the Butterfly Transformation

Rather than continue to wander in the Laws of Physics, as I was letting the juices of my enquiry swirl around inside during this last week, my attention landed on perhaps the most natural piece of change that there is, and which first becomes known into many a life at a very early age. Caterpillars change into Butterflies and this process only works in one direction. Mimicking exactly, one of the key fundamental qualities of entropy.

The change process here is starts when our caterpillar spins a protective shield around itself. The making of the cocoon entails building it in not easily discovered places. The transformation process is not so effective when interrupted.

Once the cocoon building is complete the caterpillar becomes dormant and entropy beings to come into play. The caterpillars body completely decomposes and inside the cocoon the decay of the caterpillar results in a gloopy, gooey mess of once-was-caterpillar.

At some point the mess acquires the property of maximum un-caterpillarness; the caterpillar can decay no more. An imaginary line of change is drawn in the mess inside the cocoon and the state of maximum un-caterpillarness acquires a potential to be something else. The state of being in the mess, slows through the imaginary line and the mess becomes one of maximum un-butterflyness.

Here there are two paths to consider. The first is that entropy continues to work and the state of maximum un-butterflyness begins to decay under the influence of entropy. The unbutterflyness decays into butterflyness.

The second are the options as Hilary mentioned in the other thread,

• The changing line is energised because it's the moment of connection between two hexagrams, where their relationship happens
• The changing line 'lights up' because this is the point of difference between the two hexagrams, where current flows

the mess becomes energised or lights up with something that moves it towards the new state of embodied butterfly.

These perspectives do seem to carry the idea of something that happens quickly and in the moment or as @trojina spoke of above that the changing line is synonymous with "a point of intensity". For me the naturalness of this caterpillar to butterfly transformation is one of slow and steady pace which is initiated through decay (entropy). Similar to that described in the interpretations of Household <> Without Falsehood (Dwelling People <> Disentanglement).

One place where there could be described as a point of intensity is when the maximum un-caterpillerness flips to become maximum un-butterflyness. The potential difference between the old state (caterpillar) and the new state (butterfly)is at its greatest. Here the potential for energising and lighting up of the path to butterfly could exist.

So how does this link to the consultation?
“Entropy and Changing Lines?“
37: 3.4 <> 25

Entropy provides the initial energy in forming the liminal space (the gloopy, gooey mess) of chaos that is a central requirement for any transformational experience. At the point of maximum entropy an imaginary point / position is reached with a maximise potential for changing from the old state (Old Household) to new state (New Household). At the changing line energy flows either in the form of continuing entropy that decomposes the place of ' inbetween-ness', of maximum chaos further towards New completeness (the Laws of Physics do not allow entropy it to stop!) or through an action aligned with energising of the New.

One final thought that was swirling around was that while the caterpillar has lived a true life as a caterpillar, it's existence is at best meta-stable. As a caterpillar it lived the truest caterpillar life it could. It lived its life as a paid up member of the caterpillar family. However, wrapped up in that truth was the falsehood that it could be something other than a caterpillar. Transformation to a butterfly releases the 'lies' and allows membership of a new stable family: Household <> Without Falsehood.

 

[my_key]

The Ugly Duckling

“Entropy and Changing Lines?“
37: 3.4 <> 25
Household <> Without Falsehood

The cast still seems to be having some mileage for me. Now I'm making connections with Hans Christian Anderson and his fairy tales. The Ugly Duckling is a clear story representing change: change of attitude; change of self-view even self love.

I remember the story most from my childhood from the song sung by Danny Kaye, taken from the film based on the life and work of the great man. For the young among you who have not seen or heard the film or the song.

The basic story tells of the abuse and rejection the ugly ducking receives at the hands of his bird family, based solely on his appearance. This makes him feel very unhappy and he hides himself away feeling frightened and ashamed. All through the wintertime he keeps himself locked away in his splendid self-induced isolation. Then in spring time he is noticed by a passing family of swans who recognise him for what he truly is: a swan. His declaration that "I am a swan" brings about a moment of change and releases a joy-filled realisation of his true self.

So what has entropy got to do with this?

One way of looking at it might be that there is a gradual decline of this fear and shame over the winter time, and he is supported by the affirmation of others that the beliefs he held could now be let go and their hold on his world is completely dissolved. You might say his old beliefs are thrown into total chaos.

It's clearer for me in this story that there is a more emphasised moment of change - his declaration of "I am a swan". That seals the deal for change after his long period of isolation inside his cocoon. He no longer holds tight to himself the un-truths that formed his beliefs from his old family and the helping hand from his new family members cements a new understanding of self and of his real tribe.

This fairy tale speaks equally to the relationship of entropy with changing lines. the decline of his physical runs parallel with the decline of his ugly self thoughts. The change happens gradually; over the wintertime and there is clearly a point of energising after the entropy has played it's part. Perhaps this is nearer to the facts of the matter than just entropy acting alone. The flow through the changing lines are a partnership of yin (dark and nurturing decay) followed by a yang (energising / lighting up) element.

This could well be explained in the changing lines of this cast.

Line 3 can be seen in terms of emotional endeavour, beliefs and ability to evaluate matters that allows for new world views. It marks the threshold of the inner world and the quality and characteristics of the energy that flows outwards into the outer world. Karcher says of this line "This inner rebalancing lets you make your way in life".

37.3 speaks of the balance that needs to be found between severity of approach and not treating matters seriously enough. The inner world is best served through moderation. Too hot tempered, too severe then cool off. Too much laughing and joking then let this attitude dispel.

Line 4 carries insights into judgements, choices and decisions that appear in the outer world. The qualities of these form the bedrock on which we build our tribe. It is for Karcher seen as "Arrival: This inner preparation leads to what is greater"

37.4 Here there is a quieting resulting from the actions of the woman (yin) that enriches the household bringing nothing but good fortune and wellbeing.

These lines together offer another perspective on entropy and changing lines. Wilhelm, in particular, gives credit to the womanly (yin) influences for finding the way to enrich and to bring greater balance the "income and expenditure" of the household.

"Six in the fourth place means:
She is the treasure of the house.
Great good fortune" Wilhelm

... of course it may mean nothing like this at all.

 

[my_key]

Some more meanderings around entropy and trigrams. Here's how my thought process went:

Entropy exists as an unseen force in the Universe. It moves everything, through the action of decay, from a state of order to another state that is less ordered and inflexible and all things will eventually attain a status of total disorder i.e. Chaos. This may take millions or billions of years in the case of something like a mountain or happen in a time frame much smaller.

A beautiful Caribbean sandy beach is the result of entropy in action. It has not yet attained the status of total chaos yet.

How does entropy act form the next state of decay?
In the natural world it enrolls the forces of Wind (Xun); Water (Kan); Fire (Li); Sound aka Thunder (Zhen) and in the ultimate these are conducted through acts of God (Qian). The latter is well understood in the insurance business - they'll not pay up when the existing order of things is disrupted in this manner.

So 5 of the 8 trigrams can be seen as having a strong and undeniable connection with entropy. I couldn't see immediate connections for Earth (Kun); Lake (Dui) or Still (Gen). If these connections are clear in the physical world then why not extrapolate these into the metaphysical world of change / changing lines and all that inhabits the other realms.

The consultation that started this thread asking an open enquiry about the relationship of "Entropy and Changing Lines" has been examined in terms of meaning via Hexagram Names, Change Operators, Trigrams and Changing Lines and has been seen to align with folk lore and the mechanisms that prevail in natural world transformations.

Changing lines, while being seen as marks on a page or in a book, are like the equator, only imaginary. There are two directions that the flow of a changing line can take, from old yin to young yang and from old yang to young yin. Change flows through these locations in the ethereal world. The old lines have reached a point of 'maximum chaos' with only one option to move towards a new order.

My first perspective was that the whole changing line thing was fueled by entropy. Now I think more that entropy is a key constituent of the mechanism involved within a changing line portal and that the second stage of the change process manifests through flow akin to lighting up or energising. Yin and yang working together in harmony to manifest change does not seem an unnatural conclusion.

I'm happy to explore this topic further or explain how I have reached certain conclusions from the different aspects of the consultation process. However I have reached a point where the connection of entropy and changing lines is as clear as I can make it for me. Others have held different platforms but the cases they presented were not convincing enough to persuade me that entropy is not a part of the mechanism of change.

As synchronicity would have it, while watching a chess game analysis on a You Tube channel the following quote was presented to me on the screen. It is attributed to the philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche.

"You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star"

... of course it may be nothing like that at all.

Good Luck

 

[my_key]

I thought I was finished with this entropy thread however it appears not.......
Consciousness itself could well be a by product of entropy
For those that are interested here's the page that popped up. It calls out to the Friedrich Nietzsche when it says in its opening lines that " we are stardust" and a bit further on "everything is infused with a particle of chaos".

Enjoy

New Theory Suggests That Consciousness Is a Byproduct of Entropy

This study reminds us that we are stardust, operating under the same laws as any other form of matter.

bigthink.com

 

[my_key]

Entropy is still wandering around the backroads of my mind and now has stepped forward in relation to psychology.

Jung is quoted below and he speaks of the creative tension that is produced through entropy which is necessary for positive change to occur. Entropy exists when there is awareness of inner conflicts and, I would suggest, by extension becomes the catalyst for change. You don't need to be laying on an analyst's couch to be aware of inner conflict.

Sometimes the tension is palpable in everyday life. This could easily link back to @hilary's suggestion that was supported by @trojina when she offered " ... lighting up as in becoming intense, bright the point of change into something else". The intensity could be the growth of the inner tension and it is this increased entropy that becomes the bright point of change.

Perhaps, even, it is this inner tension that we feel that prompts the initial query being offered to Yi.

In psychology, entropy refers to sufficient tension for positive change to transpire. For instance, Carl Jung, a Swiss psychiatrist and psychoanalyst, emphasized the importance of psychology entropy by saying, “there is no energy unless there is a tension of opposites”. Such energy dispersal is necessary for the "color" to happen in one’s life. One of Jung’s patients aptly stated, “I don’t know what you are going to do with me, but I hope you are going to give me something that is not gray”. Moreover, in psychotherapy, the client needs to be aware of his entropy, the inner conflicts that he is experiencing, so he can be more in charge of it.

Source: https://www.alleydog.com/glossary/definition.php?term=Entropy#:~:text=In psychology, entropy refers to,is a tension of opposites”.

 

[my_key]

Jung and psychological entropy

Psychologically, we can see this process at work in the development of a lasting and relatively unchanging attitude. After violent oscillations at the beginning the opposites equalize one another, and gradually a new attitude develops, the final stability of which is the greater in proportion to the magnitude of the initial differences. The greater the tension between the pairs of opposites, the greater will be the energy that comes from them; and the greater the energy, the stronger will be its constellating, attracting power. … an attitude that has been formed out of a far-reaching process of equalization is an especially lasting one.”[20]

In other words, after a person experiences a major life event that calls into question some assumptions or beliefs (“violent oscillations at the beginning”), there is an interval where the person wrestles with new ideas, insights, or shadow figures until eventually there is some sort of rapprochement, leading to the formation of a new attitude or belief system, and this new attitude or set of beliefs will be more firmly held the more it differs from the original attitude. When the new attitude has supplanted the old, “the opposites equalize one another,” and this equalization is entropic, like the temperature of the coffee coming to be the same as the temperature of the room.

“Psychological entropy” is the term Jung used in applying the concept of entropy to the work he did with his patients. In his system Jung recognized that the tension of opposites generates energy.[21] The greater the oppositeness, the greater the tension, and the greater the tension, the greater the energy produced by the tension. “Greater energy” is like the boiling temperature of your coffee: There is a great difference between that heat and the temperature of the room. The situation is “negentropic,” manifesting negative entropy. And this means work can get done: You can drink your coffee. In Jung’s consulting room, it meant patients could change and heal.

Source: https://jungiancenter.org/psycholog...e-dont-want-to-have-all-our-wishes-fulfilled/

 

[breakmov]

Hi my_key

“Entropy and Changing Lines?“

If you consider that "Changing Lines" is equivalent to "new information", which is my case, then perhaps this will be of interest to you.....
"logic, boolean algebra, information, entropy":Logical Information Theory

.....and:

That's all I have to say regarding the topic.

breakmov

 

[my_key]

If you consider that "Changing Lines" is equivalent to "new information", which is my case, then perhaps this will be of interest to you.....

The video's were helpful but I have to admit just reading the abstract sent me into a spin.
What I have gleaned, I think, is that in simple terms the entropy of a variable is the "amount of information" contained in the variable. The amount of new information quantifies in some way the the amount of change.

So, I'm concluding from that that one changing line does not have as much entropy as 2, and 2 changing lines not as much entropy as 3 and so on down the line to 6 changing lines. Where entropy is in it's highest state.

With unchanging hexagrams Logical Information Theory points towards low entropy. Perhaps, because the cast reflects where you are now, there is no new information just a mirroring of what is, but perhaps not in conscious awareness. (That's my best stab at making meaning here)

Jung does use the term entropy in his psychological models, which is slightly different to what is understood in physics and I guess Logical Information Theory, adds another spin.

That's all I have to say regarding the topic.

Me too!!!

Too much new information coming in to me after exploring this new concept and changing my perspective on the world.

Thanks

 

[my_key]

Nuclear hexagrams have been attracting me over recent weeks. So I thought it might be appropriate to explore just from this perspective the question and cast:

“Entropy and Changing Lines?“

37: 3.4 <> 25

Dwelling People <> Disentangling
'Household' <> 'Without Falsehood'

The context (25) of the relationship between Entropy and Changing Lines is deeply enwrapped in the energies of hex 53 'Developing Gradually' which is energised by movement of the masculine. So the general context around any changing line involves an inspiring movement which opens the way for the gentle harvesting of a new relationship with self. That movement has to be slow, gradual and subtle as it penetrates to the core of the individual self in line with the trigram arrangement of Wood over Mountain.

Gradual Development provides for the setting immediately before and the shape of the circumstances after the change. One way of seeing this could be that the focus is on behaving and walking in ways of power beforehand such that there is a overall increase in them and an associated decline in ways of behaving that are less virtuous afterward. These positive and negative adjustments align with the magnitude of the overall transformation available for the changing line.

Rather than being first improving power and then follows decline in the vulgar it would seem to me that these movements happen proportionately and in unison. For the masculine to move the feminine has to yield at the same time, by the same amount. Expansion and contraction, Light and Dark, Growth and Decay move together in harmony.

This can perhaps be seen as the deep essence of the context which guides at the changing line level a flow towards disentanglement as matters are conducted in harmony and without falsehood.

The primary hexagram 37, which is where all the real business is carried out, is deeply guided by hex 64 'Not yet Fulfilled'. It creates a picture that although short-term goals can be achieve at this moment of change described by the changing line, there is still more growth to be fulfilled and available for harvest in the future. The picture of the trigrams Fire over Water displays a realisation of a new structure being brought to light that further directs towards a greater sense of truth. One cycle is ending as a new one begins.

At this deep level there is a sense of the masculine having become exhausted. With the exhaustion comes a new way of seeing the world that better discriminates matters. A subtle essence permeates from these depths that promotes the seeing of things in a more balanced way. These whiffs of a gain are held securely in ways that sustain them thus ensuring they percolate towards the level of change and ensuring that space is made for them in the brave new world evoked by the changing line.

So the real business conducted by 37 - that of healing, remodelling and reorganising - that leads to a more cosy and comfortable dwelling in which we can life our life is nourished and fuelled by the felt sense of what has been achieved at the level of change and further buoyed by hopes of future connections and achievements.

What I find particularly interesting here is that the cycle embraced in change seems to be deeply held by a contextual essence expressing a movement of the masculine principle(will, strength etc) that requires at the root of the transformation to be continued until the energy for any further movement has become used up. So the business end of the change is sparked / motivated by, at a deep level, the exhaustion of that same masculine principle.

Rather than exhaustion, words such as draining, sapping, emptying, depleting, burn out, collapse and even decay could spring to mind to describe what is happening to the vigour and power of the masculine energy in the deeper echelons at the business end of change.

... of course, things may mean nothing like that at all.

Take Care

 

[my_key]

Still riding the waves of curiosity:

I began to wonder how does change actually work based on my consultation.

“Entropy and Changing Lines?“

37: 3.4 <> 25

Dwelling People <> Disentangling
'Household' <> 'Without Falsehood'

The transformative actions that demonstrate the dynamics of change, according to Karcher can be seen in the Change Operators.

For this cast:
The Inner Yang or Inspiration Operator speaks to inner transformation aspects and the Outer Yin or Realization Operator comments the places where change occurs and the possibilities of realising the change.

Inner Yang = Hex 62: Small Traverses / The Flying Bird (Karcher); Little Exceeding (Huang)

The Inner Inspiration behind changing lines comes through a series of small inner adaptions based in examining the excesses of his his conduct and addressing any concerns that arise. Possibilities for realising change come from keeping life simple and adapting and moving on your inner landscape towards new, less-excessive ways of expressing humility, mourning of sorrows and frugality.


Outer Yin = Hex 61: Centring and connecting to the Spirits (Karcher); Innermost sincerity (Huang)

The Outer Realisation for change comes at a place of a newly established deep trust. A trust that expresses that inner and outer world can now be more robustly connected. There is a small part of us that has to die to allow change to manifest and letting go of the fear of this death brings the possibilities for change into being and eventual realisation.

Again, here it is possible to see the inner inspiration as being rooted in the slow decay (entropy) of outmoded thoughts that have an undue sway on how life is lived.

Of course there may be other interpretations of 61 and 62 from a Change Operator perspective or consultations that have been made by others to explore this fascinating process.

 

[my_key]

........... and following the bread crumbs a little bit further and deeper into the forest. Exploring the nuclear hexagrams of the Change Operators.

Inner Yang or Inspiration Operator = Hex 62: Small Traverses / The Flying Bird (Karcher); Little Exceeding (Huang)

So the Inner Change operator is guided by by the nuclear power of 28 Great Traverse / Great Exceeding which recognises that the ridge pole is sagging and twisting and proceeds to set matters in motion which allows for acts like stepping into solitude without fear and being thus being able to step back / detach from your current life without sadness.

Outer Yin or Realization Operator 61: Centring and Connecting to the Spirits (Karcher); Innermost sincerity (Huang) is motivated along the new road to realisation of by 27 Jaws / The Tigers Mouth or Nourishment. The time has come to correct the things that are nourishing you. The way you speak and think have to change and you have to carefully consider all the inputs that mould your world. Seeking out their origin will guide you to deciding which ones to keep and which ones are past their sell by date.

Inspiration for inner change comes from deep recognition that your world is crumbling and provides courage to change. Realisation is manifest outwardly by deeply correcting how you are nourished. Fearlessly embracing 'In with the new, out with the old'.

 

[my_key]

To align my final comment in post #16 with the theme of this thread - Entropy and Change.

"Fearlessly embracing 'In with the new, out with the old'." surely has to be corrected to read

"Fearlessly embracing 'Out with the Old, In with the new'."

Now that is a model definitely more suited to representing decay !

 

[my_key]

“Entropy and Changing Lines?“

37: 3.4 <> 25

Interesting perspectives and awesome images of the reading is made by AI and can be seen HERE, starting properly at post #81.

The question had to be modified slightly by me to give the AI a clearer framework and point of origin. My initial “Entropy and Changing Lines?“ whilst good enough for me to shape a meaningful response was a bridge too far for the AI duo.

Huge thanks to @remod for his generosity.

 

[my_key]

Four more questions about Entropy 3 addressing Entropy in the context of hexagrams and I Ching.

AI also produces its own casts and answers more appropriately worded questions. It's interpretation of 36 Unchanging along with the other amazing responses it produces can be found HERE (post #85 - click on the hyperlinks).