Great Person

[svenrus]

Hex. 12.5, Hilary's translation:

"Resting when blocked,
Great person, good fortune.
It is lost ! it is lost !
Tie it to the bushy mulberry tree" *)

When reading Great person (or other expressions alike) one might think, humbly: But that can't be me ?

No, except if You are a grown-up who have been so familiar with the I over the years that You have laid the "could it be so ?" behind You and takes the answer given for a fact rather than a question of "believe in / if ? ".

For a Great person it is good fortune because the grown-up human knows out of a lifes experience that "lost" is only a temporarily event. **)

*) Hilary Barrett, I Ching, Arcturus 2015
**) This, my view of it, are secondary (ie. subjective / personal experience) to Confutze's commentary to that particular Line Statement [Wilhelm/Baynes, Book II, Ta Chuan, Part II, Ch. V, § 9 - pg. 341 in the 1968 ed.]

About mulberry:

"Mulberry trees are sometimes mentioned in ancient myths and legends. They were plentiful in ancient China and played an important part in the silk industry. The trees’ leaves were eaten by silkworms, which produced silk thread used for cloth and fine clothes.
An ancient story describes how the mulberry tree got its name, which means “mourning.” The tale concerns a girl and a horse and has been told and collected in different forms. Mythologist Anne Birrell calls the story “The Silkworm Horse” in her book,
Chinese Mythology.
According to the tale, there was once a sad girl who missed her father. Left all alone, she told her horse that if he could go and bring her father home, she would marry him. The horse immediately bolted. Her father found the horse, which was clearly saddened. He mounted it and rode it home. But after they arrived, the horse continued to act strangely, never eating. Whenever he saw the girl, however, he became quite excited. Finally, the father asked the girl what was going on. She told him. Worried and ashamed, he killed the horse with his bow and arrow, then skinned it. While he was away, the girl kicked the horse skin. She laughed at the dead animal, telling it that it had been killed because it wanted a human for its wife. As she spoke, the horse skin rose up, grabbed her, and went off. A neighbor saw what had happened and told her father. A few days later, they found the girl and the horse skin wrapped as a cocoon on a tree. They called the tree a mulberry tree. Silkworms eating on the tree did much better than on any other tree, and its seeds were soon used to grow many others.
The girl is identified as Can Nü, the goddess of silkworms, in some tales."

(From "Chinese Mythology A to Z", Second Edition, Jeremy Roberts, Chelsea House 2010)

 

[svenrus]

Hi Freedda,

When receiving this Omen recently I got the feeling that the sentence "Great person, good fortune. " counted for someone else but me, the Sage, the Holy enlightned person high above my rank - which didn't bother me as I'm so used with this in I Ching and look at it as an Ideal for me to aspire unto.

I see it like: The Great person will easely Rest when blocked as this person is aware that the dark times (Hex. 12 overall impression) are but temporarely. Actually last night I were nearly going to delete this thread again as it allready has been explained by Confutze as You know, but decided to let it be in the Open space area here where I actually placed it maybe to get some responses.

​

What caught my attention were the different translations at hand, above from the book I use to read at first *) where the word Treachery are used instead of lost. In another book You'll find "will they die, will they die? " **) Quete a difference in translations....

But not to make this too much of stealing Your time I wanted to share my impulsive understanding of whom was meant by Great Person. That I don't think this is a person above our reach but just the human grown-up, or whom has reached a level of life experience - or simply, it's You and me when having achieved the insight that an experienced old-age person has.
Do You have another impression of this hex. 12.5 ? that I can learn of and maybe rethinking my take at it....

*) I Ching, Kerson and Rosemary Huang, N.Y. 1987
**) Book of Changes, Lars Bo Christensen, 2015

 

[hilary]

I agree that lines about the great person invite you to ask, 'Is that me?' Might be, might not. And that the great person is also often someone who can see further - like seeing the wisdom of resting when blocked, being able to imagine the longer term, knowing that the mulberry cut back harshly this year will grow bushier next year.

Another characteristic of the great person, though, is their resourcefulness: they can afford to rest. That could cover any kind of resource, so being the great person isn't necessarily a moral achievement.

 

[my_key]

I agree that there are so many different translations that it becomes difficult to sort the wheat from the chaff. Hex 12 made more sense for me when I viewed it as a place of 'standstill and decline' per Wilhelm. The small have gained the upper hand however they have not necessarily won the war. Hex 12 can be a place for the decline of the 'evil people' / the victim influences / the small people that have brought about a stagnation in us and in our world to the extent that they have made the way of the noble one ineffective.

At line 5 there is a call to arms and with no other way forward the big guns are called upon to intervene: the great person enters stage right. Your dilemma about whether you can see yourself as the great person, could I suspect, be part of the stagnation that has set in. The great person for many people is a higher being, a spiritual being, to which status we can only aspire, however I think at line 5 it is vital that we see at least the possibility of ourselves as that higher person, even if only for a second. That provides the spark for the growth of our own adult / mature person to come in and assist with the decline of that which has ensnared us.

This is a hard thing to accept, changing old and long held views and attitudes. The new mature adult embryo has things to face / address - treachery from the old habits regaining their ground, fears of embracing the change, doubts about the effectiveness of the new path, plus a barrow load of what ifs and if onlys that can easy restore the old status quo.

So protection of the 'new' in a thick bush that promotes quick growth is recommended. The quicker growing and more robust is the new the sooner the stagnation is overcome and replaced. Of course the old belief that you are not a 'great man' and so cannot win the day may rule the roost but here at line 5 I believe that your belief is crucial to success.

Good Luck

 

[svenrus]

I agree that lines about the great person invite you to ask, 'Is that me?' Might be, might not. And that the great person is also often someone who can see further - like seeing the wisdom of resting when blocked, being able to imagine the longer term, knowing that the mulberry cut back harshly this year will grow bushier next year.

Another characteristic of the great person, though, is their resourcefulness: they can afford to rest. That could cover any kind of resource, so being the great person isn't necessarily a moral achievement.

OMG it seems I was blindly focused to the spiritual aspect of Great person ! I simply must take myself time to study Your explanations of terms in I Ching (Don't remember where it is). It changes a lot that the Great person as well can be a person in a powerful social position or simply a rich person and that alike.

 

[svenrus]

Short: Great person are not necessarily one to follow or idealize but simply one who are in a position of wealth (or power) which make it possible for him to calm down, rest, seeing the impermanent in the situation with ascendency. And that this Great person got excess to "wait and see" (the profit of) the use (silk) of the mulberry. But that in all cases one should take preparations for that it could went wrong ("it is lost ! it is lost !") when not being in such a position (as is the Great person).

Something like that... I'll have to take a closer look on posts #5 and #7 which seems promising but also a bit complicated for me to react on immediately. (at least I'll give it a try)

Anyway: thank You for claryfying this passage in hex. 12 for me. My take on "Great person" were a bit hasty yet it has more to it (as pointed out by my_key).

 

[hilary]

Great person are not necessarily one to follow or idealize

Not necessarily, but possibly, sometimes. It's possible to be resourceful in experience (Brad's version) or wisdom or insight or calm, too.

 

[hilary]

I'm not really getting where wealth and/or power have anything to do with the qualities of a 'great' or 'mature' human being?

Not much - but the question is about the expression 'great person' in the Yi. 'Great' here literally just means 'big, tall, high, vast' (and also 'adult'). So 'great person' vs 'small person' can mean the spiritually/morally great vs the small-minded, and it can mean 'the big man' vs 'the little people'. It's not an either-or. As I said, you can find a broader concept that encompasses both ideas if you think in terms of resources.

(And as you said, finding the relevant meaning depends on the individual reading.)

 

[svenrus]

I actually placed this thread in Open space to spontaniously share my impulsive interpretation of hex. 12.5 in a provocative way out of what I personally saw was the meaning of the term Great person. But also out of eventually coming reactions, to be clarifyed whether this interpretaion were right or wrong.

If I have had difficulty in understanding this reading that I got a while ago and wanted personal assistance I would off course have placed it under Shared readings and as I got only that Line changing I take this line to be the primary answer in the oracle (but whether that be so is another discussion).

So, this posting wheren't a question concerning my personal consultation back then but mainly how to relate to Great person in this context ie Line 5.

I think that with the answer Hilary has given I can see clearer the meaning of the term Great person.

PS: Sometimes provocations can force forth the truth - but my intention weren't utter provocative.

 

[hilary]

I actually placed this thread in Open space...

Friendly forum public information notice:

• Shared Readings is for sharing readings
• I Ching News is for I Ching news: articles, book reviews, events...
• Exploring Divination is for all other Yijing-related posts, eg discussions of hexagrams, lines, recurring expressions, the Sequence...
• Open Space is for off-topic posts that have nothing to do with the Yijing (and probably nothing to do with divination of any kind).

 

[svenrus]

All Right. But call me crazy if I'm wrong in claiming that Open space were the place for BOTH off-topic matters and divination stuff like controversial view points etc. etc. etc. (UFO's / Atlantides bringing I Ching/Astrology/Tarot/.../ jingle-bells ) when I joined this forum some years ago.
Or it's just my memory that have gone.

I'll try to remember Your classifications above here. Thank You.

[Have edited here: controversial instead of contradictional. 12' of december]

 

[svenrus]

Off course, You are right Freedda and how things were once upon a time ain't what they are. Time's they are a changing.
(I've edited where to were on my post, mentioned just to justify Your quotation is right)

 

[Trojina]

All Right. But call me crazy if I'm wrong in claiming that Open space were the place for BOTH off-topic matters and divination stuff like contradictional view points etc. etc. etc. (UFO's / Atlantides bringing I Ching/Astrology/Tarot/.../ jingle-bells ) when I joined this forum some years ago.
Or it's just my memory that have gone.

You aren't completely wrong. At one time political questions were routinely moved from SR to Open Space since it must have been deemed they would end up in arguing about politics not Yi. No one bothers to move them these days but there are so many of them now in SR, (I mean trump questions may as well have their own forum), I guess it's not worth moving them or people are bored of talking about him.

UFOs belong in open space as they have nothing to do with divination.

 

[svenrus]

My memory can fail after an unhealthy life with drinking, smoking and so on but it's OK with me if I'm wrong anyway. And off course in the consultations where political stuff are involved - specially these days with the climatic affairs - it has to occur in the Shared reading space.
Just that Open space were the space I found most comfortable in, believing that divination stuff side by side with off-topics were accepted.

Never mind, I'll follow Hilary's advice from here on.

 

[svenrus]

[........................] The great person for many people is a higher being, a spiritual being, to which status we can only aspire, however I think at line 5 it is vital that we see at least the possibility of ourselves as that higher person, even if only for a second. That provides the spark for the growth of our own adult / mature person to come in and assist with the decline of that which has ensnared us. [...............................]

Hi my_key,

First, thank You for reply and for Your "reaching hand for hope" concerning this dark hexagram (compared to hex. 11). I've now read Your answer a couple of times and the only thing I'll have to commend is a thing in it I haven't been aware of until reading Your post. I saw the upper trigram as being thick clouds until line 5 where changing and thereby showing the trigram Li like the Sun breaking through those clouds. Li, beside the Clinging, also traditionally stands for the Sun. Just that. I don't think it's necessary to commend any further as it speaks for itself.

 

[svenrus]

I see where Bradford Hatcher refers to this person as the 'mature human being' which I like. It could mean someone else whom is wiser, but perhaps it is also advising us (or anyone) to act in a more mature manner or with a mature response - which could include being responsible, patient, persistent, accepting, firm, .... or whatever the situation asks or demands of us ....

Interestingly, Hatcher's interpretation of the line (which is different than others I've read) is:

Easing out of separation​

The mature human being’s promise:​

This passes, that passes​

As surely as mulberry seedlings ​

One read I have on this is that a mature human being sees the change and impermanence in things, that all states (including separateness) will pass as mulberry seeds are scattered by the wind, or as they might pass through us ....

Best, D.

Hi Freedda,

And thanks for respons as I asked You for (#3). A little while ago I bought Bradfords books and one thing I found difficult were the american language he uses - not (!) that there is anything wrong in that - throughout vol. I.
I mostly uses his vol. II for look-ups. I've tried to grasp the quote You've been giving above and turned it around in my head but my us-english can't reach the meaning here.... Sorry.
But reading Your take on it reminds me of the point of view I myself got in the very beginning of this thread, except for the mulberry seeds scattered by the wind...

I think I'll turn back to the statement I got in paranthesis at #1 that basically Confutze has given the primary interpredation of hex. 12.5 (my take on it were quite impulsive, weren't it ?)

 

[svenrus]

A) I can follow Bradford a long way and it's not his language in general but there are some phrases that I (personally) can't look up in my english (UK) dictionaries - so, simply that's me who are lost here and there in his work (Word by Word).


B) And it's this 5' Line in particular: 1: the Great person and 2) the Mulberry bush.

It's not that complicated, I mean my posting were more like: Why are the Great person un-harmed (for the Great person, Good Omen) or raised above this situation ? And: Why is it specially the Mulberry bush and not any other bushes mentioned ?

So it's more down to the ground than what my expression may have sounded like. Or: I took my spontaneous look at it out of what came to me when working with the reading and expressed it here (plainly out of how it came to me). And this I can see clearly are both an individual thing but also a general thing.

C) Your question whether it's Bradfords translations of the texts or his commentaries: both, but a long way down the line I can follow him. The underlined expression is an example where I'm blocked in understanding:
"Easing out of separation
The mature human being’s promise:
This passes, that passes
As surely as mulberry seedlings "

But just one example. Let it be.

I've just opened my eyes and reading Your response this morning and this is my immedial reaction to it. Hope I've not misunderstood or misexpressed my reaction to it.

 

[svenrus]

(I've checked my answer for spelling errors and so on - hope it's understandable)

 

[hilary]

Why is it specially the Mulberry bush and not any other bushes mentioned ?

There's a lot of lore about mulberry bushes. Their leaves feed silkworms, of course. Just recently, archaeologists discovered the remains of silk in a Neolithic burial in China, 5,000 years old. And it's good-quality silk, so the craft was already well-established and refined even then. You would have a mulberry tree near your home, for convenience. As well as silk, you get medicine from the bark, and firewood and twigs for basket-weaving.

Second, as Wilhelm says, the mulberry regrows when cut back. I did some looking-up for my book, and found lots of exasperated gardeners, trying and failing to eradicate mulberry that kept on regrowing. And then there's this farming advice from 77BC:
"In the first year, sow a mixture of mulberry seeds and glutinous millet. When the mulberry plants are as high as the millet, cut them down with a sickle close to the ground, next spring mulberry suckers will spring out. Such mulberry trees are convenient for plucking and management because of their shortness."
So that's how to grow a bushy mulberry.

But mulberries also have their myths. There's a tree at the end of the world: the ten suns are bathed in the pool at its root, while the birds that carry the suns across the sky (one per day of the ten-day week) roost in its branches. This is a mulberry tree.

And there's Hollow Mulberry, which may or may not be the same tree, and features in a story something between Lot's wife, Daphne and Moses. The mother of Yi Yin (a Shang ancestor?) was told by a spirit in a dream that when water came out of the mortar, she must go east and not look back. The next day she saw this, told her neighbours, and went east. But after 10 li, she looked back, and saw the city completely flooded. And so she was turned into a hollow mulberry. The infant Yi Yin was found in this tree by the water’s edge.

...at which point it is interesting to look at the etymology of 'bushy' in 'bushy mulberry':
https://hanziyuan.net/#苞 . (It's the 'plant' radical plus 'bao', 'enwrapping' as in 12.2 and 12.3, and you can see what that's made of here: https://hanziyuan.net/#包 .)

None of which exactly answers your question, of course, but hopefully it keeps you well-supplied with further interesting questions.

 

[svenrus]

Thank You

 

[my_key]

The underlined expression is an example where I'm blocked in understanding:
"Easing out of separation
The mature human being’s promise:
This passes, that passes
As surely as mulberry seedlings "

Hi Svenrus
Thank you for your feedback on my previous comment. I'm not sure what you mean exactly by ' dark hexagram' with respect to Hex 12. For me, the contrast of light and dark between hex 11 and 12 does not mean that they have to be seen wholely as light and dark hexagrams e.g 11.6 and 12.6 show darkness in light and lightness in dark respectively.

Hex 11 talks of flow and heaven and earth mingling, Hex 12 of blocks / obstructions that cause the flow to stop and heaven and earth do not mingle. Here in the hexagram, in general, heaven and earth are separate and to Bradfords way of seeing things at 12.5 there is a dimininshing of this separation (i.e easing out of separation). Things can start to show signs of becoming aligned again, start to mingle. This can be promoted by emulating the great person and living up to his promise. I see here the word promise perhaps more as as a 'quality of potential excellence', rather than promise as an 'assurance that one will do something'. Maybe though a case can be made for both.

The threats, the doubts, the ill-conceived calls for action can be allowed to pass as we obtain a foot and hand hold in our own power; the authenticity of the mature adult finds a way to unplug the obstruction. He finds the ray of sunshine; the right size and shaped plunger for the blocked drain pipe.

The Mulberry bush either as seedlings or as a tree that something is tied to (perhaps akin to rituals of letting go and natural slow return) gives for me a picture of new growth or release in preparation for 12.6.

And then to follow through on Hex 12, at Hex 13 " Fellowship of Man" trigram Li manifests in the lower position, bringing inner sunshine.

Or maybe it all means nothing like this at all.
Good Luck

 

[svenrus]

Hi Svenrus
Thank you for your feedback on my previous comment. I'm not sure what you mean exactly by ' dark hexagram' with respect to Hex 12. For me, the contrast of light and dark between hex 11 and 12 does not mean that they have to be seen wholely as light and dark hexagrams e.g 11.6 and 12.6 show darkness in light and lightness in dark respectively.

Hex 11 talks of flow and heaven and earth mingling, Hex 12 of blocks / obstructions that cause the flow to stop and heaven and earth do not mingle. Here in the hexagram, in general, heaven and earth are separate and to Bradfords way of seeing things at 12.5 there is a dimininshing of this separation (i.e easing out of separation). Things can start to show signs of becoming aligned again, start to mingle. This can be promoted by emulating the great person and living up to his promise. I see here the word promise perhaps more as as a 'quality of potential excellence', rather than promise as an 'assurance that one will do something'. Maybe though a case can be made for both.

The threats, the doubts, the ill-conceived calls for action can be allowed to pass as we obtain a foot and hand hold in our own power; the authenticity of the mature adult finds a way to unplug the obstruction. He finds the ray of sunshine; the right size and shaped plunger for the blocked drain pipe.

The Mulberry bush either as seedlings or as a tree that something is tied to (perhaps akin to rituals of letting go and natural slow return) gives for me a picture of new growth or release in preparation for 12.6.

And then to follow through on Hex 12, at Hex 13 " Fellowship of Man" trigram Li manifests in the lower position, bringing inner sunshine.

Or maybe it all means nothing like this at all.
Good Luck

Time, time, time - Oh, wish I got time ! To dive in to Your wisdom explained here.... Dear my_key, it seems You are far ahead of my understanding when pointing out hex. 13 ! It goes on and it goes on. Dosn't it ? Oh Yea - it all means something to this yet !
Quote: "[......................] The threats, the doubts, the ill-conceived calls for action can be allowed to pass as we obtain a foot and hand hold in our own power; the authenticity of the mature adult finds a way to unplug the obstruction. He finds the ray of sunshine; the right size and shaped plunger for the blocked drain pipe. [....................] " Honesty is a strange thing indeed. Sometimes You'll have to lie to tell a truth (Helena Petrovna Blavatsky: Nobody want the Lie about this world but who have ever known the Truth ?) *)

No, but now to the point: as You said above (cursive) I can only agree yet not fully getting the depth.
You see, dear my_key, the old pictogram (or ideograph as Alfred Huang names it) for hex. 12 are "To deny / Evil" (Take a look at page 11 HERE) and this taken literary means that this is a dark hexagram - and as I wrote: in comparision to hex. 11 - but You also points out that in Yin is Yang and in Yang is Yin, so here we are, back again in this old discussion about Dark and Light....
And as I'm best adviced to do: leave it and focus on the matter namely the theme wich isn't hex. 13 or for that matter hex. 35 (12.5 / 35) - but hex. 12.5


*) Secret Doctrine, introduction qoute.

 

[svenrus]

Quote, not qoute, sorry...

and other failures and mistakes and misunderstanding Your post and behaving mean and - and ? Honesty is a strange thing, but sometimes it's better to fall overboard than doubting the captains order - or, something like that. Sorry for my grammar

 

[svenrus]

UPDATE ! Sorry my_key, I should have deleted this but I'll let it stay, not that I'm proud: drunk as I am now , third bottle of wine. Please, bear over with me. Meet You when sober

 

[my_key]

I agree with you about the endless nature of seeking and about the dangers of wandering down side roads and climbing side shoots. Especially, we have to be careful when you mention the root of many a modern day meandering that stems from Blavatsky and the Theosophical Society. We could easily slide off into all sorts of esoteric wonderment here.

Back to 12.5.
Huang names Hex 12 Pi as Hinderance. A much more gentle wording than Standstill, Obstruction, Blocked or Stagnation. My reference for Huang is "The Complete I Ching" and in that he indeed uses the ideogram that you use in your link, however in the book his main thrust appears to be that Tai (11)and Pi (12) are as important a pair of opposites as Hex 1 and 2. He also gives importance to the lower circle in the ideogram symbolising a person speaking the word 'no'. He also says of Pi that there are many meanings with negative connotations such as bad, wicked, evil or mean, So from this he emphasises that there is a wide spectrum of manifestation for these hinderances.
No and bad, wicked, evil or mean also aligns with your perspective of Hex 12 being "to deny / evil."

He translates line 5 as
Cease the hindrance.
Great person: good fortune.
Forget not! Forget not!
Tying up to the trunks of mulberry trees.

and gives commentary which adds another view on mulberry bushes.

Huang: The yang element at the fifth place is the host of the gua. It is central and correct, indicating that one at this place is strong and firm, able to turn the hindering situation to advancement. This is a task for a great person, and the time is right. Thus the Yao Text says, "Great person: good fortune." Yet changing a situation from hindrance to advancement is not an easy task and requires a period of time. So the text warns: "Forget not! Forget not! Tying up to the trunks of mulberry trees."

In ancient times, mulberry trees by custom were planted next to one's house for protection against the wind and the rain, because their roots were deep, their shade was wide, and they grew fast. Chinese scholars still like to employ a mulberry tree to symbolize one's native home, because it gave people a sense of security. "Forget not!" in Chinese is qi wang. Q in ancient literature, is an auxiliary verb used to give a command. Wang means to die or perish. But in ancient times, die, perish, and forget shared the same sound and were interchangeable in written language. This line is in a superior situation to end the hindrance. It is good fortune for the great person; there is no reason to introduce negative feelings. Thus, the sage says, "Forget not! Forget not!"

(my highlight in bold)

 

[svenrus]

Thank You. I'm so sorry for that it went wrong yesterday and can only apologize what happened. I feel bad with myself for not having been able to separate wine and my partisipation here, something I have been able to do for years and I will take the consequense and withdraw for a while from this forum.
Sorry to You all.

 

[my_key]

Thank You. I'm so sorry for that it went wrong yesterday and can only apologize what happened. I feel bad with myself for not having been able to separate wine and my partisipation here, something I have been able to do for years and I will take the consequense and withdraw for a while from this forum.
Sorry to You all.

No worries, all is well from where I am viewing your posts, however thank you for your apology. Wine can help bring many things out into the open and if you add to that situation the energies of a full moon then who can tell what was really going on. Sometimes we just have to vent those feelings !
I'm looking forward to seeing you post again.
Best wishes

 

[hilary]

Thanks Hilary. I wonder if you have an references or sources for all these good things about the mulberry.

Oh dear, awkward question - lots just gets stuffed into my 'notes' doc when I find it, with or without sources. Ann Birrell's work on Chinese mythology is certainly one source I rely on; then there were lots of gardening forums about the difficulties of eradicating mulberries. The information on cultivating mulberries by cutting them back is apparently from Fan Shengzhi Shu in 77BC. And I depend on Richard Sears' Chinese Etymology site, https://hanziyuan.net .

One association I have with the mulberry bush is as the fiber (called kozo in Japan) used to make handmade paper. However, paper wasn't discovered in China until quite a bit after the Yi was written (and the first fiber used was hemp) - and hence the older Yi versions are found on silk and bamboo strips.

One thought I had about 12.5, and the line 'tie it to the bushy mulberry tree': could this be a diviner's instructions or advice, sort of like, 'on a slip of silk or bamboo, write down what you want to happen, and then tie this to the mulberry bush near your home.' Perhaps this was not unlike the idea of a 'wishing tree' where people leave wishes, and such tied to a Hawthorn tree - as found in Ireland and Scotland (England too?)

Best, D.

Perhaps it could. I've never heard of such a thing in Chinese lore, but you never know.