hex 8.3.5>15....

[stronglightning]

after months I met a boy with whom I had a difficult story that ended with many doubts and a few clarifications from him and for which I suffered and still suffer. He almost disappeared leaving me with so many questions that I did not understand what was this relationship.I asked yi "what did you feel at that moment X?" and I received 8.3.5> 15.I was in a panic but I tried to be controlled, I still feel the feelings for him. He hugged me then went away, a somewhat ambiguous behavior.I can not understand if the 5 line refers to me, like all the response ... I asked about him but maybe yi refers to me? To the situation in general between us? Who is the noble of the 5 line me or him? Are yi telling me that I have to stay away because it's wrong for me?I'm not clear even the hex 15 ...Thanks for the replies and sorry for my english

 

[stronglightning]

any suggestions?

 

[Freedda]

I don't understand the question you asked. You said: "what did you feel at that moment X?"

Is the 'you' the guy, or are you asking this of yourself? You want to know about his feelings or your own? And when was 'moment x'? Or is 'x' the guy?

 

[stronglightning]

forgive my English, the question was related to his feelings (X) at that time, but I wondered if instead yi talked about the situation or about me ...

 

[moss elk]

It said
line 3: you were trying to bond with a bad person.
And line 5 not to try to force any bonding with him. (or more specific: you wanted him to bond with you at the time, but didn't fight for it to happen. Which is a good thing because of line 3)

 

[stronglightning]

thanks for the answer,but the hexagram 15?

 

[equinox]

thanks for the answer,but the hexagram 15?

The attitude of giving up the idea of bonding with the "wrong" person can be regarded as an act of moderation, which is indicated by Hex 15.

Edit: Btw I rarely go so far to say, that a person is inherently wrong or bad for somebody (if I know nobody of the involved personally and I know only one side of the story) especially since situations, circumstances, feelings, attitudes etc. may change. But it is obvious from this result that it won't pay off to set your heart on this relationship right now.

 

[erre_kz]

I agree with Equinox, in my past experience hex 15 most of the time meant "fly down"..at least for the moment.

 

[moss elk]

Edit: Btw I rarely go so far to say, that a person is inherently wrong or bad for somebody

I respect what you are saying here.
The terminology we may use from the outside isn't always the best to use directly to such people, especially as a helper, pyschologist, or caregiver or anyone wishing to keep their head attached to their body.

But our Yi has four classes of people, none of which are based on socio-economic class.

Da Ren (truly Great/Mature people: Ghandi, Dr. MLK, King Wen, O Sensei, teachers....etc)
Jun Zi (Young Noble, someone trying to improve themselves and be honorable; like a bodhisattva)
Xiao Ren: (common everyday people, not so great and not so bad. plenty of beer here.)
Fei Ren (Crooks, Con men, murderers, those that delight in causing trouble, and the like)

So, these words definitely mean something when you see them.

 

[equinox]

Yes, you may be right. My comment was not meant to distance myself from your post above btw, I just wanted to clarify how I think about relationship readings, which I rarely find to be absolute in their meaning.

 

[rosada]

Your question is confusing but I think you were asking "What did he feel about our relationship?"
Lines 8.3 suggests he did not think of you as being a real person, that is, he did not consider what effect his words and actions would have on you.
Line 8.5 suggests he felt no obligations, he felt you didn't have to respond to his flirtations so he did not feel guilty for leading you on.
15 as the resulting hexagram says he did not feel upset by the whole incident. He probably didn't think it was unusual and has probably just gone on with his life.

Ouch, not a very nice - or at least not a very aware - guy. However, it's always risky to ask the I Ching how others feel. It's too easy to misinterpret the answers. I think it's more productive to read these answers as suggesting to you how you should think about the situation. That is, the IC is telling you that you should assume he didn't think much about the flirtation and has moved on - whether this is true or not we don't know, but it is probably a good way for you to think about it so you can move on too.

 

[Trojina]

It said
line 3: you were trying to bond with a bad person.

8.3 does not mean this is a bad person. It may do occasionally in your experience, in mine and others it has never meant that. That is there obviously will be times it means exactly that but certainly not always...see cat example.


It simply means someone not of your kind, someone alien to you perhaps in some way. I have had this line about friends I've had for years and it doesn't mean they are bad people it means in some respects your natures are incompatible almost not of the same species.



I have seen it mean to try to bond or connect with what is literally not human. That is there was a reading where it described someone connecting with a cat. I've also seen it where it described seeking to connect with a spirit.


Hilary's translation is


'Seeking union with non-people' and non people aren't always inherently bad or wrong in themselves any more than cats or spirits or people so unlike me they are almost another species.


My experience bears that out anyway I've been lucky not yet to encounter the line as simply 'bad people' at least and I think it's a far too simplistic coverall definition.

But our Yi has four classes of people, none of which are based on socio-economic class.

Da Ren (truly Great/Mature people: Ghandi, Dr. MLK, King Wen, O Sensei, teachers....etc)
Jun Zi (Young Noble, someone trying to improve themselves and be honorable; like a bodhisattva)
Xiao Ren: (common everyday people, not so great and not so bad. plenty of beer here.)
Fei Ren (Crooks, Con men, murderers, those that delight in causing trouble, and the like)

In translation yes but in practical interpretation there aren't four classes of people. I certainly don't and never have recognised such classes. The fact this is part of the translation doesn't mean it can be literally applied to people now. It's too simplistic since everyone at one time or another can be 'Fei Ren' to another but it doesn't mean they are absolutely classifiable as such in themselves. They might be 'Fei Ren in the morning to the one they rob and then Jun Zi to the one they stole for in the evening and as to Da Ren well who is to say who they are ?

Ouch, not a very nice - or at least not a very aware - guy.

Not really true to say someone is 'not aware' because of 8.3. Good Grief you can't imagine the people I have had that line about none of which you would class as 'not very aware' I can assure you.


I agree with this though

Lines 8.3 suggests he did not think of you as being a real person, that is, he did not consider what effect his words and actions would have on you.

I think the one we seek to unite with is not in a position to consider our feelings, they can't being not human. Of course other people are human but here so different they simply don't 'get' who we are. This is a painful line because in 8.3 we are generally seeking union quite fervently with the object of desire.


Reminds me of that experiment where the ducklings 'imprinted' on a human rather than one of their own species and followed humans around. We do that too. We follow things/people/ideas that aren't of our kind too. It can lead to an uncomfortable time later on but it does not mean the things we followed were of themselves inherently just bad anymore than the people the ducks followed were bad it was just they not of 'our kind'.


If the ducklings had cast they would have cast 8.3 they are seeking to unite with non ducks

[video=youtube_share;SaS4hjbJa1U]https://youtu.be/SaS4hjbJa1U?t=5[/video]

 

[Trojina]

after months I met a boy with whom I had a difficult story that ended with many doubts and a few clarifications from him and for which I suffered and still suffer. He almost disappeared leaving me with so many questions that I did not understand what was this relationship.I asked yi "what did you feel at that moment X?" and I received 8.3.5> 15.I was in a panic but I tried to be controlled, I still feel the feelings for him. He hugged me then went away, a somewhat ambiguous behavior.I can not understand if the 5 line refers to me, like all the response ... I asked about him but maybe yi refers to me? To the situation in general between us? Who is the noble of the 5 line me or him? Are yi telling me that I have to stay away because it's wrong for me?I'm not clear even the hex 15 ...Thanks for the replies and sorry for my english

Line 3 would indicate I think you don't really share many central values or in other words he isn't really your type. The connection is loose and open by the look of line 5 and often I find line 5 doesn't really care much either way, easy come easy go. 15 encourages you to see this as it is without any illusions so practically my response is the along the same lines as others.

 

[rosada]

From now on I'm going to think of 8.3 as meaning, "You are trying to bond with duck."

 

[moss elk]

In translation yes but in practical interpretation there aren't four classes of people.

Are there Four Seasons?

 

[rosada]

I didn't mean to suggest 8.3 means a person who is not aware. My comment was meant to be a summation of both lines and the resulting hexagram and only as a response to this specific question. I read the 8.3.5>15 as saying the fellow's actions were caused by his being oblivious to her feelings as opposed to someone who acts the way he did as a reaction to something she might have done or out of anger or an attempt to manipulate her. Like if she were to confront him, 8.3.5 > 15 suggests to me his response would be, "Oops, I didn't know you cared. Sorry about that. No big deal."

 

[Trojina]

From now on I'm going to think of 8.3 as meaning, "You are trying to bond with duck."

I think that's a useful way to think. See most often the object of desire in 8.3 looks like something we really do want to bond with but like the ducklings we don't realize we are looking for union in the wrong places. This can be a shock.

Also I think it has some similarity to 4.3 in that 8.3 can mean what we are trying to unite with isn't really real, it might be an image of a person we cling to. I've been surprised to get this line about people I admire...then I see they aren't really the same species , it's not useful to aspire to be like someone not of your species as you will never make it. I mean the ducklings are sincere in their desire but it's misplaced and as the guy in the clip says I'm too young for kids' (even if I were a daddy duck)

 

[Trojina]

Are there Four Seasons?

Yes but that has no connection to the idea of 4 classes of people.

It's a very static view of humankind to imagine there really are are 4 kinds of people on the planet surely ?

Also we don't say one season is better than another, there is no hierarchy but in the 4 classes of people in Yi (which I never paid much attention to) there clearly is a hierarchy. One class of people is better than another. In terms of translation and what that conveys it can be helpful but I don't think it is in any way a realistic view of humanity for us in terms of modern day interpretation.


I don't see what there being 4 seasons has to do with it. I'm not denying there are these 4 classes in Yi but I'm saying it cannot be held closely to in interpretation at all since we are all 4 classes in the space of one day perhaps in different situations. There are some evil people for sure but the vast majority of people are a bit of a mix. Also I never once had 8.3 indicate a 'bad' person so simply classifying 8.3 as 'bad people' is an interpretation I would just jettison. It will mean bad people sometimes as I said but it really doesn't have to mean just that and you will see that when you cast it about some kind and lovely person one day who isn't bad at all but who probably just isn't the right person for you to seek union with because it some ways they are quite alien.


And of course when other lines are cast you find that even if someone is alien in some respects they may not be in others. For example if you get line 2 and 3 together what can you make of that if it is about the same person.

I would see it as there is great sincerity of connection there (line 2) but it pays to realise also this person just isn't like you at all and you may have to balance that with the sincerity and good feeling of the connection.


Think of the times a person may cast this line about a spouse or a close relative. They can't just conclude 'this is a bad person' because it's not true. What they may be meeting is a point of non connection, a place or area in the relationship they simply cannot sympathise with one another on. That doesn't mean the person is bad so the relationship must end.


quack quack

 

[moss elk]

Yes but that has no connection to the idea of 4 classes of people.

I think it has everything to do with that idea.

There are actually No Seasons.
Seasons are mental constructs which, having knowledge of, helps us continue to live.
There is the position of the earth in relation to the sun.
When the Sun is furthest, certain things happen.
When Sun is closest, other certain things happen.

People created the seasons, because it serves them well (the continuance of their lives) to recognize the qualities of the Time.

Similarly, the classification of people serves the continuance of ones life and wellbeing.
(oh, I see a guy standing in the shadows with a knife about to mug that passerby.)

8.3 people are the ones that make you yell, 'ouch!'
The confucian commentary says:
(on bonding with them)
'Is this not sufficiently painful?'

So, the 'categories' both exist and don't simultaneously.

Mew, Mew.
(that's Elk sounds)

P.S.
Trojina, I understand that you never had this line actually apply this way.
I do get that.
8.3 was the first reading I ever got,
and it was about someone that it was extremely painful to be bonded with.
So, it sticks with me.

 

[Trojina]

I think it has everything to do with that idea.

There are actually No Seasons.
Seasons are mental constructs which, having knowledge of, helps us continue to live.
There is the position of the earth in relation to the sun.
When the Sun is furthest, certain things happen.
When Sun is closest, other certain things happen.

Yes the things that happen so regularly are called seasons. Seasons aren't mental constructs since they would occur whether there was someone to have a mental construct about them or not. Seasons are a fact of life on earth at the present time.

People created the seasons, because it serves them well (the continuance of their lives) to recognize the qualities of the Time.

People didn't create seasons they observed them and named them. Observing and naming isn't the same as creating. You may as well say the sky is a mental construct or a bird simply because we observe and name them. But they aren't mental constructs they have their own reality.

Of course philosophically you might say nothing exists at all outside of our mental construct
of it but that would be solipsistic.


Yi was created by the observing of nature not the creating of nature.

Similarly, the classification of people serves the continuance of ones life and wellbeing.
(oh, I see a guy standing in the shadows with a knife about to mug that passerby.)

It can do yes just as classification of symptoms can serve the continuance of one's life when an illness can be diagnosed but on the other hand classifications can get in the way.

I think saying that 8.3 means 'bad people' is a classification that is too narrow, gets in the way.

8.3 people are the ones that make you yell, 'ouch!'
The confucian commentary says:
(on bonding with them)
'Is this not sufficiently painful?'

Certainly whatever this is it isn't something to continue seeking union with but that doesn't always make that person/thing necessarily intrinsically bad.

P.S.
Trojina, I understand that you never had this line actually apply this way.
I do get that.
8.3 was the first reading I ever got,
and it was about someone that it was extremely painful to be bonded with.
So, it sticks with me.

Oh yes no doubt it's a line that could be extremely painful to experience, and no doubt it can describe evil people, I don't doubt that. All I'm saying is it doesn't always have to mean a person is intrinsically bad especially with lack of other evidence.

:bows:

woof​